New_beginning,
Thanks for the advice <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
neu

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> From what you have posted you are coming from the view of a child "caught in the cross hairs" of the blended family with some "issues".
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"issues" you have them too. Whether they are the same or not, on a basic level they are alike.

My only advice is your wife should CARE about the kids more than she cares about herself. If you do that and you have THEIR best intentions in mind, things will work out much better. I don't even think you could appreciate that seeing that you have no children of your own. I don't mean that in a bad way. but when you married a woman who had children, did you really think it would turn out like the Brady Bunch? Obviously not.

I understand and feel your concerns for her are legitamate. It sounds to me like your wife does not make a good spouse. Maybe if you inform her of your discontent, she would be more inclined to change her ways. I don't mean by just saying, I don't like it when the kids talk back to you, or I don't like it when the house is messy. (Or yelling about it)

I mean have a heart to heart talk with her apologizing for your rush to judgement in who you thought she was as a woman and explaining that you don't want to live your life like this anymore. By saying those words, she can one of two things: Change or Stay the same. If she changes, great for you! If she stays the same, at least you know! But the kids are definatley not at fault. They are victims of yours and especially her ignorance.

Neu,

Sorry that I ask too many questions.. just hard to really know what is going on without really knowing what is going. There is a lot posted here that I want to respond to so it’ll take a few posts. I’m home and busy for the holiday so I’ll drop in from time to time and add a response.

I’m sorry if you feel that I’ve ignored that points you were had concerns about. That was not my intent. Instead of answering the specifics I was addressing the overall issue. I’ll go back and address some of the specifics. Specifics are important to know what is going on. However, it’s also important to not get bogged down in the he-said/she-said sort of dialogue. Those lead nowhere but to more frustration.

Your concerns and point of view are very valid. Sound like you have a tough situation. Do be aware though that your wife’s point of view is also valid. For example you feel that she has changed or is at least not the quite as she represented herself. I’ll bet my bottom dollar that she feels the same way about you. Yet I’m sure that you are just two good people who do not have good relationship skills, who really want things to work, but you both just don’t know where to go from here and you cannot communicate affectively about it.

And aside to MB members…. I agree with the jenni70. It’s wrong for anyone here to be dogging your wife. None of us know her, she is not here to defend her side of the story. Everyone, let’s all remember that there are three sides to every story, his, hers and the real story. I have no doubt that Neu is telling the truth, from his point of view. I also have no doubt that his wife’s feelings and thoughts are truthful and valid, from her point of view. One of the major points of MB is to get the couple talking, sharing the EN’s, sharing LB’s, and POJA so that they can follow that MB rules for care, protection, radical honesty and time. This Neu are his wife are a couple in trouble, they need help not the type of bashing that will only pit one against the other even more. In the end it is the children here who will suffer the most.. and God only knows the children are the ones who in the end are the most damaged. So the few of you who have been joining on the band wagon of Mrs. Neu bashing, let’s please stop it and give Neu some real help.

Sorry for aside there Neu, I just get a little ticked when people aren’t using the MB concepts here. That is the purpose of this site.. to learn how to rebuild a marriage using the MB concepts. They are wonderful, I swear by them because they not only saved my marriage but my family too. We implemented much of it, as appropriate with our children.. ideas like radical honest, protection, care and time. I won’t go into the details but I will say that we owe Dr. Harley a huge debt for getting his ideas out to the public and for having this web site. So in the spirit of that I’ll get on with responding with to you.

So to address some of your concerns…..

Welcome to parenting…. Ah man these kids have your number.. They are controlling you by keeping you and your household by keeping everything riled up. I’ve been there done that so I’ll share with you some of the insight I’ve learned. They are not ‘bad’ kids, they are just kids. It is the job of kids to test the boundaries and limits. They do it daily. They also spend a lot of effort figuring out how to control the household, creating anger and chaos are normal tools. It is the job of the adults in the household to be one step ahead of them.

Parenting today is harder then in my parents generation (my mom is 83) because we no longer have many of the tools our parents have. If we spank our kids they can go so social services and have us investigated for child abuse. Basically the courts have take away most of a parent’s right to parent. They want to parent the kids now I guess, but they are too busy to do the job right. So kids today get the feeling that no one can or will impose limits on them. It can be done, but if a child is defiant it’s hard. It seems though that your kids are younger than mine (13, 14, 15), you say that the one boy was crying so I assume he’s closer to 8/9 then to his teens. I had asked about age, not to pry, but to get an idea of what can be expected of your kids. Each age has it’s own distinct good points and challenges.

I do care, by the way, about your feelings and the way you see things. I can read that you are hurting and upset/angry. You have a right to be. I want to validate that. But there is a basic truism here. You are the one here. You are hurting. Since you have not left your marriage I assume that you want to find a way to make it work. So it’s up to you to initiate the changes. You are the man of the house, you can be a loving husband and step father who takes the lead of your family healing….. that is the intent here… to give you ideas that will help you heal our family. I’m glad to hear that you have already backed off from the parenting right now.. you were wise to take that advice.
Right now I’ll concentrate on the parenting/child interaction issues. After that I’ll get to issues between you and your wife. The reason I start with the kids is because that has to be defused before anything else can happen.

Be supportive in certain ways like a parent, without really being a parent

Actually you get to be the ‘good’ part of being a parent without having (right now) to do the hard part. Please do not discount the great influence you can have on these children. You get to be the ‘good step-dad’, the one who gives them support, shows them how to be a man and gets to have fun with them. You get to be a huge positive influence in their lives. And there are ways you can help them develop good behavior. But you simply have to leave the basic discipline up to your wife right now. That will come with time as you build a relationship with the children and your wife. I hope you can get some insight from the following. Others here have given you some good advice too. Discuss them with your wife, telling her that you love her and the kids, just really need are more peaceful home. It’s better for all of you. Then you are just going to have to trust her to do the disciplining.

"He's not my dad". Now that hurt!!!

Let’s start with this one… my ex and I adopted our son when he was 10 days old. We have always told him that he is adopted. Everything I ever read about raising adopted children says that when they get between 5 – 10 years old they will start the “I don’t have to listen to you because you are not my real mother.” And of course just about every parent hears “I HATE YOU”. Kids use those word to hurt their parent, to try to bring their parent to their knees and beg for love.. and of course give the kid everything they want in earning the love back. Fat chance in my house. They forget I was a kid once too. My son tried both of those tactics on me ONCE. “I hate you, you’re not my mom so I don’t have to do what you tell me to do.” My response was… “I know you are very mad right now. I love you and always will, even when you are mad at me.” I did this with my step kids too. When their dad and I first got married they told me that they were going to break us up… then when dad was not around they transformed from children into banshees. They would yell that type of thing at me. I’d repeat the above to them. Usually I kept my cool. (not always, I am human) They stopped saying those things to me a long time ago.. why? Because they know I do not let such words get to me. As an adult we are in charge. We cannot allow children to use such words to control us. But we cannot stop it by ordering them to stop it. Remember that children are their own little people from the moment they are born. They have their own thoughts and ideas. Come up with something to say that defuses them.

Parents are in the business of civilizing what are basically wild pups. If we do it with yelling and smacks (I am not saying that you smack), then they are civilized to use those tactics. If we do it with thought and in an emotionally healthy way, they are civilized in that way.

I get the rolling of the eyes and I'm telling my mom!

Just ignore it. This is an attempt to get you angry… don’t let them get to you, ignore it. See if you can get your wife to agree that if they back talk and roll eyes, etc. That they go to their room to cool off. Our rule is that if a child is acting in a way not conducive to polite society then they are removed from polite society. They go to their room to cool off. They may emerge on their own accord when they have cooled down on their own and can once again act like civilized, polite people.

I fear that doing things like taking away computer privileges for two weeks is really too harsh…Why? Because if you do this for every time the talk back and roll their eyes, they’ll never see a computer again for the rest of their lives. Save that for the big infractions.. like lying, stealing, sneaking out, etc.

The idea is that the punishment needs to fit the crime. Taking away a computer or game system for being disrespectful is a punishment, but it does not teach them the right behavior. While sending them to isolation teaches them that if they act anti social they will be cut out of society. Let me assure you, being put in solitary confinement in their rooms is hard on a kid.. because they are very social creatures.. Wanting constant love and attention. The only caveat I have is to make sure that their rooms are not too much fun to be in. No computer, stereo, etc for the time they are in their rooms. The idea is for them to contemplate their actions.

One thing we do with our kids is that they have to earn their computer power cords back. Once they have cleaned their rooms they get the cord back and can play. This approach has a built in reward/punishment. And they are completely in control of whether they are rewarded or punished. Kids love control. When they whine about this, I remind them that they are in total control of if they are punished for not doing the room or rewarded for doing it.

Now we have suggested that your wife be the one to do the disciplining. But you are not powerless here. You have the right and the obligation to teach our stepchildren that you will not tolerate their being disrespectful to you. It would be nice if your wife backed you up on this. But let her do what she will. You concentrate on your own approach… If the children are disrespectful to you, when you doing things with them.. Stop doing it. For example, my step children had a habit of being rude and insulting to me, each other, or anyone else in stores.. When I finally got smart about it…. I warned them before entering the store that any rude behavior would put an immediate end to the shopping trip. One rude comment/behavior and we put down all the stuff they were going to buy and drove home and they went to their rooms until they could once again be civil. See I removed them from a social situation when they were being unsociable. I also removed MYSELF from their presence.

Do not let your step kids engage your anger …. They are baiting you and you are biting every time.

By the way, please do not discount what I have to say because I am a woman so by definition everything I say comes from a woman’s point of view. I have more than a little bit of experience handling stepchildren and my own son in the most difficult of situations. I’ve learned a lot from by experience and from paying heed that things taught to me by both male and female counselors and advisors. I certainly do not know it all, but I’m no dummy either. Neither are the others who are giving you advise here.

Well, I have some ponds and fish to tend to, so I’ll be back. Hopefully you’ll respond in the interim.

<small>[ May 24, 2003, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: zorweb ]</small>

Zorweb,
Thanks for your commits. However, I still feel that I have to make more of the changes in this thing than anyone else. That will wear anyone down, sooner or later <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Nue,

Of course you have to make most of the changes. You are moving into THEIR family. However, If you use what Zorweb has just given you, you will in actuality be the TROJAN horse in the family. You can change, you can modify, and then you can have the family you want and the life you want. Why? You will have influence if you change, not your values but your approach to things. That is what Zorweb is saying.

They are testing you, and they will continue to. Don't feel left out, my kids tested me. My main issue is with your W. You two need to sit down and talk. I would offer to make the changes, but I would request in exchange for making the changes that she take control of the situation such as her children's behavior toward you. However, don't make too big a deal of it with the children.

You are in a hard position. There is no doubt about this. Talking with your W about your feelings and developing strategies that make you both happy and provide the children the guidance they need should be the goal to reach. I would strongly recommend that you read about the Policy of Joint Agreement, POJA.

Good luck,

JL

JL,
Their Family........ So what am I the intruder?
I must make most of the change! What about meeting someone half way?

neu,

Yup, it is their family. You are an intruder in the eyes of the children. You are not their Dad, and you take their Mom's time away from them so she can focus on you. Yes, I know not enough, but view it from the children's point of view.

Children, really do work on the "fear and greed" principle. So they don't see the pluses you bring. Your W should, and she should be supporting you in this.

As for meeting half way, Allow me to introduce you to a concept that is not well known, but is very true. Equality is a mathematical concept. It has NO analoge in the real world. Even balance is an illusive state in the real world as most things are constantly changing.

I am not saying your W shouldn't support your role in the family. I am not saying she shouldn't spend more time on being a W than she does. I am saying she will spend more time on the children. She is right here and she is wrong here, but she is going to do what she thinks is right.

It seems to me the issue that you two really need to decide upon is your role. The children have a Dad, they have a Mother, and your role is...?

If you cannot find a role that you like and enjoy. If your W cannot meet your needs, because she feels the children deserve ALL of her focus and effort. THEN, I would say quit fighting city hall, and divorce her. Why do I say this? Because she feels she can do this alone, and she wants to. You cannot change that.

It is your job to find your role, and yes it will very likely mean that you are NOT met halfway. What you have to decide is what you get out of the relationship worth what you are going to have to do?

Now, before you make this decision, I think you really need to read up on the POJA aspect of this site, it coupled with the "radical honesty" approach are your way out of this mess. You see, NO ONE in a marriage should make a sacrifice, unless it is agreed upon and recognized as such by both parties. You should make the changes "enthusiastically" because you feel they are right, you are happy to do them, and you want to do them. If you cannot do this then don't make them.

Now what will make you "enthusiastic" about those changes? You and your W will have to work that out. If it were me, it would be that I got her support, I got her respect and thanks for doing it, that I got love and attention from her. Not just for making the changes but because that was part of the relationship I want to maintain. I know this sounds a bit confusing, partly because I am having to work as well as write, but Neu, this needs to be a win-win between you and W. The children...they require raising and training, but they are not your children. So your role will be more complex, and in some cases more frustrating. Having gotten two out of the house and a third half way through HS, I can tell you it isn't easy some days.

But, it seems to me the key here is you and your W doing a serious attempt at POJA. Negotiate and discuss the issues and how they are to be handled.

You are not now part of the family. You will become so with time and the support of your W. There is no way to force this situation or settle it in a quick stroke. You sound a bit like me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> in some of the issues around the house.

Must go.

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ May 28, 2003, 02:13 PM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

JL,
QUESTION..........Do you think/feel that a blended family situation is worth all the stuff the person intering this family has to deal with?

Neu,

I don't know the answer to this question. There is no doubt in my mind that a blended family is much more difficult than a single family with both Mom and Dad at home. A real Duh! on that one. It is the reason people should view marriage as more than going steady. You know all of this.

I think the only two people that can answer your question in your case is you and your W. Yep, your W. Why does she feel you should stay and go through all of this? Why do you feel you should?

I know of no one that didn't have trouble blending families. BUt, I do know many that were successful. However, in the cases I know of (I am not an expert) it was clear to all of us outsiders that the H and W were on the same page with respect to who needed to be focused on. The kids needed time and attention, but they seemed to find a way to make sure the kids knew that the other spouse was very very important to the Mother or Father.

Still didn't mean that there wasn't some rebellion in the ranks from time to time, and that the H&W didn't disagree, but the successful ones KNEW they needed the other spouse in the picture and went out of their way to make sure there place of prominence was assured in the family. Those were the successful ones.

Neu, given the realities of today, blended families are a reality. So my opinions of them make little difference. You married your W because you wanted to, because you loved her and she loved you. Have the reasons you married her really vanished, or is the reality of day to day living just masking them from your view?

You have to answer those things for yourself and you need to talk to your W about them as well. Have you noticed me repeating myself??? TALK TO YOUR W ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS and see if your view of things jibes with her's.

I just cannot emphasize enough the idea of "radical honesty", which by the way is not necessarily hurtful honesty. I think you know what I mean.

I hope I have helped.

God Bless,

JL

Neu,

I'm not sure what to say to you that JL has not said already about the need to change.

Could you be a little bit more clear about what changes that we are talking about here that you find particularly troublesome.

<small>[ May 31, 2003, 12:37 AM: Message edited by: HappyDays ]</small>

JL & Zorweb,
Sorry I haven't gotten back to you, but I've been pretty depressed the past 48 hours.
In any event here I am, such as it were.
You guys keep telling me to </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Talk to my Wife</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">, and I have my times than I can count @ this point. We had a real heart to heart yesterday. She informed me that she is deeply depressed about our marriage situation.
She talked about the kids and that stuff. As for the disipline part, when we got married, she invited me in the displine part of the "Family" structure. Now, she, who invited me in doesn't want me to displine because she doesn't like my methods etc. I have asked her almost every month on the month if she has any problem with me and the way I handle things. She says no! She lied!!!
If she had spoken many months ago we wouldn't be in the situation we are in now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> . Her excuse was she didn't want to hurt my feelings. Little good that did, it just made the problem worse.
She asked what I've think on things. Well, I told her that if she had talked to me about the kids things months ago we wouldn't be here now. I also told her I feel that she doesn't want to be married to me. She replied that she does want to be married to me. I went on further to say that I feel like an oustider and an Intruder into her family. Though she says I'm not, that's how I feel. I know it really bothers her that she can't give me a child. No, guys I have never thrown that in her face, if that crossed your minds.
Last night I went out. Stopped by a relatives and watched TV. I returned home after 12:30 am plus. This morning she asked were I was so I told her.
She called me from her job and asked me what can she do to make me feel like I'm a part of this family? I told her I not know. I said that she invited me into the part of disipline and things she didn't like I would either work on it or just stop do it, but it still wasn't good enough. I was tired of fighting with "City Hall" JL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , so I stopped doing it (disipline) and have kept to my agreement.
She feels that her kids have to choose between her and I. Ex. One of the kids is going on a school field trip and wanted my W to go, fine. However, my W wasn't sure she would be able to get off work that day. I volunteered to step in and go if needed. We, W & I told the kid this. the child went into his rooms seriously crying and I didn't know why. The kid went sometime later and spoke w/W. My W informed me the kid was crying because the kid really wanted his mother to go with him, but didn't want to "hurt" my feelings by telling me that he (kid) didn't want me to go. I told her that I will take myself out of this as not to make the kid feel he has to choose. There have been other situations along those lines and each time I have taken myself out of the situation. My W said she knows it hurt my feelings. I told her that it bothered me for a short time, but I got over it and realized that her kids have always known her to be there so I don't take it personal. She went forther to say the reason she doesn't really talk to me is because she is affraid of hurting my feelings on things. I told her to give me the benefit of the doubt and just talk to me.
I told her I realize that she and her ex-husband are the kids parents, at this point I'm just trying to be there friend. That no matter what happens, I could become rich over night and give the kids everything they ever wanted they are still her and ex kids.
The problem I told her I have with her parenting/child relationship is that we could be alone together have husband/wife time. Either sexual, watching TV, etc. her mind is always on her mind. I told her that's not fair to me/us, the marriage. Would either of you like to make love to your spouses and you know there minds are on the kids? How would you Feel? She acknowledged that it wasn't fair to me, (WOW, perhaps the light may have come on).
I asked her to very important questions. 1)Does she Love me? reply "very much". 2) Does she want me in her life? Reply "Yes".
I told her again that I still have a problem with her kids talking about to either of us. In my strong opinion any kid who talks back to there parent, parent figure, or adult is a DISRESPECTFUL CHILD. I asked her what is going to happen when her kids are grown and out of our house and they come over and somehting happens were an arguement start and the kids start yelling and talking back to you than. Her response is "I won't let that happen". News Flash she letting them do it now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> .
She told me that S is the last thing on her mind right now, but she knows it has been on mine. I have mentioned nothing about my needs not being met in that dept. Though she is right on this one, my needs haven't been met, not once in just shy of a month.
She said that she wants to "work on this, before we end up in Divorce Court, were we both don't want to be". There is truth in that statement.
Another problem we seem to have is our finances. What newly wedd couple or even older married couple doesn't. She feels that I don't do enough, money wise. She wants us to put almost all our pay check into our joint account and pay all the bill and things down middle. Now, I really don't have a problem with that, but should that include things related to her children, whom she recieves child support for.
QUESTION: The is two questions. 1) to go back to something you both hit on. In you opinions "What changes do you feel I need to make"? 2) The is a good one, Do you feel that a step parent should be obligated/responsible for financially supporting step kids who already recieve child support?
Please get back to me ASAP if you can.
Thanks <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ,
Neu

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, I told her that if she had talked to me about the kids things months ago we wouldn't be here now. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BUZZING SOUND - going backwards and putting your spouse down does not solve the problem. - apology is in order here

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I also told her I feel that she doesn't want to be married to me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BUZZING SOUND - emotional projection of your feelings onto her is a DJ, unable to respect her opinion of yes she does, and illegal feeling sentence - - apology is in order here

neu-longname,

you need to clean up your act when have an R (relationship) discussion with your wife. . . right here, with those two sentences, i suspect you turned your W off from any further progress in the conversation. . .

never say that "i feel that you__________"
first, you are blaming, emotionally projecting and not owning your feelings. . . get with the program here. go through my long post with Diamonzz, it only in the some of the last 3-5 pages, and read how i verbally chastize her for this very same DJ, disrespectful judgement. . .

now. . . .second, you wife did not lie to you about your position, or status, when she answered fine. At the moment, she did not have issues. . .now she does. . . you are frustrated, now that is a feeling she can relate to. . .

so, you need to say to her, "I am frustrated with our communication. I have asked before, and not been told there is a problem. I like to hear problems directly. Is there anything about me and my reactions that are preventing you from answering directly?" and there very well may be the emotional projection and disrespectful judgements that you are throwing around puts her off from telling you the truth. . .

so get with the MB program, and learn some respect and i don't want to hear any claims from you that you do respect her, because I have already seen the DJ. . .

wiftty

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by neuschwanstein:
QUESTION: The is two questions. 1) to go back to something you both hit on. In you opinions "What changes do you feel I need to make"? 2) The is a good one, Do you feel that a step parent should be obligated/responsible for financially supporting step kids who already receive child support?
Please get back to me ASAP if you can.
Thanks <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ,
Neu[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is no way I can tell you how to handle this. It is something that has to be POJA’d between you and your wife. In reality this is something you two should have discussed before you got married. I did the same thing in my previous marriage, did not talk about it then the assumptions we both made bit us hard. I will however share with you how we do it in our home.

My husband and I have some cash and assets that predate our marriage, therefore this is sole property. We keep these in accounts in our own names. In his will he takes care of his kids and gives my son something small. I do the same with my son and his kids.

All of the money both of us earn goes into our joint account. Most of my child support goes in there too. He gets no child support from his ex. All bills, expenses and savings are paid from that account.

My husband has been unemployed since October, so I am the sole support of our family right now. The way I look at it is that when we married we took on each other’s financial responsibilities. I went into this with my eyes wide open.

I know that if the situation were reversed, he’d do the same for my son and me.

The way you wrote the above makes it sound like she does not use the child support for the children. What does your wife do with the child support? Does it go to pay bills? Or does she put it in savings for the children?

Technically, no the stepparent has no financial responsibility for the children. But it seems to me that beyond the bills that are obviously the children’s (say for their eyeglasses or their dental care) how would a person separate out expenses like room and board? So I’m not sure what you are objecting to here. And without you sharing your budget, at least in general terms specific advice or insight is not easy to give.

<small>[ June 05, 2003, 01:01 AM: Message edited by: Eleonora ]</small>

WhenIfindthetime,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> neu-longname </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Was that neccessary? Really Why are you chastizing me like I'm a child?
Now I intend to respond to everything you said.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BuzzingSound-going backwards and putting your spouse down does not solve the problem. -apology is in order here</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was making a point regarding the subject matter at hand, not attempting to put her down.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Buzzing Sound- emotional projection of your feelings onto her is a DJ, unable to respect her opinion of yes she does, and illegal feeling sentence--apology is in order here</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My W asked me how I was feeling/thinking about our relationship. I told her how I felt. At no time in speaking w/her did I try to be disrespectful. I truly believe that my W feels that I was attempting to be disrespectful in any way. I can say this about my W, if she feels she is being disrespected by me she would tell me. There have been many occassions were I have asked her things and she has responded with "I feel that you......" I have never looked at it in a disrespectful way. Now had you not mentioned this I would not even given it a second thought. However, being as you have I will take that under advisement. I will try not to use that phrase again, and if it proves to work, well than I thank you in advance.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You need to clean up your act when have a R (Relationship) discussion with your wife...right here, with those two sentences, I suspect you turned your W off from any further progress in the conversation</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not so! We continued to talk about the suject matter and we made some "head way" which is a good thing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">read how I verbally chastize her for this very same DJ, disrespectful judgement</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now as for that statement I say this. I'm sure everyone who comes to this website is looking for help/answers to there respective marriages/relationships or what/what not to do in there next marriage/serious relationship. For you to come out chastizing people I don't feel isn't helpful. Perhaps you can help enlighten people with perhaps this type of statement. For example the phrase I used "I feel that you..." Instead of going on the attack, as I feel you did, perhaps you might be more helpful with a statement such as "Neu or whomever, have you thought the way in which you made that statement to your W/spouse may have made her feel like you are blaming Her?" Or something along those lines, you get what I'm saying? Look I truly feel that your heart is in the right place when you posted and I thank you for that. However, your delievery in this case to me did not sit well at all. It took me a few minutes before I could respond in an appropriate manner because as I stated before I felt like you were attacking me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">now....second, you wife did not lie to you about your position, or status when she answered fine. At the moment, she did not have issues...now she does...you are frustrated, now that is a feeling she can relate to..</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The reason I said she lied is like this. I have asked her for the past months if she has had any problems with the way I have displined her kids. There have been some things that she didn't like and she told me. I either made adjustments or stopping doing it to keep the peace. the punishments were in the norm of no computer or video games for 2 weeks or so. the reason I said she lied is because I have asked her in the past and she said nothing was wrong. Now, it came to light just very recently, that she doesn't like anyone, not even the kids father to really disipline the kids. In the begining she said she had no problems with me disiplining her kids. She invited me into that position. Now I am told by her she never liked anyone disiplining her kids.
I made an agreement with her that I would back off the disipline w/kids for 6 months and see how things go. After that time she and I will come back to the table and evaluate this area. If things are going great this way than fine, lets stick with it. If not, we need to make some adjustments.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">so, you need to say to her, "I am frustrated with our communication. I have asked before, and not been told there is a problem. I like to hear problems directly. Is there anything about me and my reactions that are preventing you from answering directly?" and there very well may be the emotional projection and DJ that you are throwing around puts her off from telling you the truth...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, my W knows that I'm frustrated with our communication, due to the fact that she doesn't like to talk about things. She keeps alot of things bottle up for years even before I came into her life. She has lost loved ones who has been dead for years now and those deaths still bothers her because she has never really opened up and expressed her feelings. It just "eats away at her" she knows this, but that's just how she is. I have tried to help her through those type of areas,but she will only go so far than stop. It does get frustrating. I have told her things like "I can't help until I know what is wrong or on her mind" things like that. DJ's that you feel I am throwing around puts her off from telling me the truth....I don't think that is it. Not to say I can't be wrong, but I don't think that is it. She is a very protective person. She informed me yesterday that she doesn't say some things because she feels they will hurt my feelings. I than informed her to talk to me anyway and give me the benefit of the doubt so we can deal with our problems.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">so get with the MB program, and learn some respect and I don't want to hear any claims from you that you do respect her, because I have already seen the DJ...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, Wiftty, I am new to MB and the "program". I have only seriously been coming to MB for just about a month so cut me some slack...please <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . You apparently have been around for a little while and I'm sure all of MB programs didn't come to you over night, I sure it took some time. As far as your thing on RESPECT. I can say that it is there, you may not believe that, but hey, you're intitled to feel the way you do and I respect that. However, your statment of learn some respect I feel is a bit out of line, becuase the truth is you don't really know me, nor I you. For all I know you are a good person with great qualities, but I only know of you by what you post and we both you and I make our judgements of each other from there.
I not looking for an arguement, bad feelings from anyone on this forum. I just looking for good, sound help for my marriage.
If you have anything you feel can possibly help, well than I'm all ears. Thanks for your post, and I will take them under advisement.
Neu <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ May 31, 2003, 03:30 AM: Message edited by: neuschwanstein ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Was that neccessary? Really Why are you chastizing me like I'm a child? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">is your screen name so important to you that because i acknowledged that it was a long one, but had more important topics to discuss, that i short cut it, and you assumed that i am treating you as a child?

basically, i am chastizing you for acting and communication like a child with your words and actions towards your wife.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> was making a point regarding the subject matter at hand, not attempting to put her down. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">so neu,

you like being right? you like being listened to? you like putting other people in their places when you would have been right?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, Wiftty, I am new to MB and the "program". I have only seriously been coming to MB for just about a month so cut me some slack.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So are you here to get to learn or get support? MB is about making yourself the best you can be, and learning the concepts, and learning that you can only control you and your actions and reactions. . . . basic, you should have learned that in the first month. . . did you do any research on your emotional projection problem by reading uphere on MB, specifically

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=015953;p=2

and understand why you are communicating like a child? I spent a long post with Diamonzz and she has understood her problem. you can too, but lose the whining and get down to learning and improving yourself. . . . you've got a problem on your hands, and you need to find a solution, don't you?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was making a point regarding the subject matter at hand, not attempting to put her down. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">does an elementary school teacher speak to the level of the students or does the teacher speak at the college level where she came from?

the point? doesn't matter what you think you were saying, what matters is how the reception comes across to the listener. and your delivery, when wrapped in LB (love busters, disrespectful judgements) turns off the receiver and into a defensive position. so lose the attitude that you don't need to take the reception of your words into account. . . . there is an article about this in the Harley notes, if you read up and really want to work on yourself. . .

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I told her how I felt. At no time in speaking w/her did I try to be disrespectful. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">neu- you are defending yourself, not learning the concepts, and stuck to the concept that you don't understand DJ. read my posts to Diamonzz as i posted up above, and then go back and reread your post, and you will find that indeed you were being disrespectful . . . now, granted, you have probably never thought of your speech being disrespectful, but then you have probably never been taught very well, or you did not take your english grammar classes very seriously, because the sentence, "I feel that " is an abuse of the english language.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I truly believe that my W feels that I was attempting to be disrespectful in any way. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">man, you just don't get it. . . unless you ask her, you don't know what she is feeling, because you are interpreting her, but you are not inside her, and therefore, unless she tell you how she is feeling, you are only guessing and interpreting, which is a !@#$%^ thought process, not a feeling process. . .

neu - you need a lot of work, tons of work. . . i just did the same test with my 11 yo daughter. . . she got it very quickly. . .

so neu- tell me your reaction about my feelings toward you?

I feel that you, neu-, are very selfish because you want your own way only in your family.

so neu, how does that sentence make you feel.
Fill in the following sentence to answer:

I feel _______________________ only one feeling word allowed in the blank. . .

OK, neu, i will continue when you fill in the blank in a response to me. . .

WhenIfendthetime,
I feel anrgy!

Ok I got your point, and understand my problem. I did go to the post and I understood, thanks.

You feel that I am very selfish?

Neu ---

I thought maybe you would like a single woman's perspective on this....

I have two situations...

First: my preference.

I have four children ages 8 - 18. My ex is not part of the scene any longer, by his choice, and has totally removed himself from the children's lives. So I have a bit different idea of what I NEED in a H than I might have if he were still involved in their lives. I feel I need someone who will participate in the process of raising my children. Not so much in the disciplinary realm as in the encouragement/role model realm. After I've raise them to this point, someone moving in and starting to 'change the rules' would not work. H would quite honestly have to adapt in most cases, though I'm flexible enough to adjust in many ways, our home is our home and he would probably have to find a way to fit in (with my loving help and encouragement).

The few men I've been interested enough in to introduce to my children have had interesting reactions to them. The first rejected them outright and didn't last long. The second has been an interactive part of our family for almost five months now, on a very part time basis - due to proximity and other responsibiilties. I've noticed over the months that he even in some ways disciplines my children, but as a 'friend' rather than as a parent, and in such a way that my children feel he is encouraging them. My children respect him, spend time with him, and I've noticed that the kids encourage me to spend time alone with him (and we do spend time alone) as well as asking him to join us for family activites.

Second: options.

The gentleman I've been seeing (we really aren't dating - more like just friends) has mentioned that he doesn't want to be a 'father' to my children, because he has 'children of his own'. I struggled with that for a long time, until I realized what he was meaning. He can't replace their father, so he's wanting to be part of their lives as an adult, who has an interest, maybe a mentor - or respected elder.

I've been extremely content with allowing his relationship with my children to 'evolve' into whatever it becomes. But, I'm comfortable with that because he has not overstepped his position. He isn't trodding on my toes, and he hasn't made a lot of demands on me, or tried to come between my children and me. He stepped into a very difficult position in our home, and quite honestly has been very careful to remain a 'guest' while accepting responsibilities graciously, and slowly becoming part of the family.

His love, encouragement, and appreciation for my ability with my children is apparent in his relationship with me and the children. He continues to take time for his children (whom I've not had the priviledge of meeting yet - again because of proximity, and they live with their mother) and has been very comfortable sharing and discussing his or my children with me. We've developed a very open communication - and I am finding that we are both very comfortable with our roles in the other person's life.

I can honestly say, he has taught me more about RESPECT in a relationship than anyone I've ever met.

Maybe this will help you a little. It isn't always what we WANT in a relationship that is best for us to GET in a relationship. Sometimes flexibility to allow the relationship to evolve into what it's going to be - may be more important.

Jan

no, my point is to get you to understand how you are received. . . by being on the receiving end personally

ok, so now you have a much better understanding of how you need to communicate, you need to own the emotions, and only speak in I terms. . .

the problem i was discussing with Diamonzz and now you is a very common communication problem. and since communication is a big basis of any relationship, its important to start with the basics to be heard.

Its one problem that is easy to pinpoint, one that is solveable, and takes practice, but makes a very big improvement in how you are heard by your W. being received without defensiveness by the receiver is a great start. . .

so now, lets get to the second step. . when your W does not take your point into consideration, i suspect that you feel unimportant, ignored, left out of the family structure. . . i understand completely. . . When your W changes her point of view, i suspect that you feel deceived, confused . . .

now, i would agree with you on these feelings, and you probably have very good grounds and examples to have these feelings. . .

So i would start a conversation with your w sometime when she is receptive, and if you state your/these feelings just like you are learning, and when they happen, without blaming her, but in a very sensitive way:
"Honey, i need to talk to you. i am growing concerned and feeling lonely. I am feeling _______ when __________ happens." and after you tell her, don't expect any result, but just listen . . . don't blame, be very factual and listen to her point of view. . .

once you begin to communicate in this way, you will begin to create a more safe environment for her to converse and you to speak. . . and be heard. . .

you might feel weak or less masculine by expressing and owning your feelings, but i guarantee that you will be much more understood. . . and much better received. . .

ok, so try this with your W, and try to listen to her points, and bring back to here some of her points, and we can help you interpret and/or respond to her comments to help you improve being understood. . .

PS, to a certain extent, i had to relearn my feelings to understand my X to the point of realizing that all the blame via projection she put on me is actually her problems, and not mine, even when we speak years later. . .

wiftty

<small>[ May 31, 2003, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: WhenIfindthetime ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You feel that I am very selfish? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have so little background information, I can't draw any conclusion on that point. however, my work with you is so that whatever feelings or points that you have, will be expressed to your W in such a way as you will have maximum reception by your wife. . .

If you can get maximum reception by your W, and start to create a LB free environment, free of DJ, then working towards a common understanding will be more effective. . . that is my work here. . . your feelings within yourself are mostly considered valid. . . no one can take them away from you, as long as you own them, and they are within you, and you talk in I terms. . .

wiftty