Yes...I've had to really think about this..contemplate it. I know you are all right...what kind of a relationship would I be wanting if I keep secrets from Ann? I never, never kept secrets from xW. And...I don't want to become the dog that I seem to have the propensity to become with such ease....

I have been e-mailing a good friend of mine. He worked for me as an engineer for 5 years, then went into the ministry. He is currently serving as a chaplain in Afghanistan.

Here is his take on the situation:

That's what I suspected. BP disorders occur in women more than men. My theory is that most men who are BP are never diagnosed because many of the symptoms tend to be "socially acceptable" for men. Because our society is accepting similar behaviors in women, I believe many women are not being diagnosed with a BP disorder.

During the mania periods, BP's become overly active, euphoric and irritated by those with whom they are most familiar. The mania drives a sense of adventure for something new. They become very restless and adventure into new and unusual things. They often make unreasonable purchases that often greatly impact their lives (new cars, new homes, expesive vacations, large credit card debt). Sexual misadventures are particularly manifested by BP women during this phase (often expected of men in our society). They will tend to not self-medicate themselves nor take prescribed medications during their mania phase. However, a depressive phase follows their mania. I have a different opinion about what causes the depression than phsychologists. I believe they begin to feel guilty and sometimes a feeling of being homesick for their normal lifestyle. These feelings lead to depression. During their depression, they realize they are unhappy and want their mania to return and try to medicate themselves to induce its return. It is a very vicious cycle that causes them to seek ways to induce mania that other people cannot understand. They will even lie to themselves by accepting elaborate lies or fantasies as truth and tell others while fully expecting others to believe their lies and fantasies. I have counseled BP's who have told me urban myths as events that happened in their own lives.

My suspicion is that xW's problem became very evident shortly after the birth of your second child. For some reason, BP tends to get more evident after childbirth and progressively worse with each child. They love to be pregnant and boast about their fertility. Those who have difficulty bearing children are impacted to a more severe degree.


Having now given that information, I think your problem relates to two issues. The first is what does God expect you to do. I actually believe this is an easy one to answer but a difficult one to accept and apply. You made a vow to God relative to xW and He expects you to fulfill that vow A vow differs from a promise in that a vow is a promise about someone or something to God. His grace can forgive broken vows but His expectation is for us to fulfill them. Ecclesiastes 5:4,5 says, "When thou vowest a vow unto God, defer not to pay it: for he hath no pleasure in fools: pay that which thou hast vowed. Better is that thou shouldest not vow, than that thou shouldest vow and not pay" Verse 5 seems to be what the disciples were trying to apply in Matthew 19:10. The second issue is the matter of xW's sincere desire to be forgiven. As a friend, I am going to tell you that xW will do these things again. If she truly is BP, these things are a part of her life. I know that is very difficult to deal with and it is something that only those who have to deal with the problem can understand.

Therefore, you have to make a decision. Your decision is one of faith. By faith, you can accept xW back into your life with the physical and mental challenges that she has. Abraham failed at this point. By faith, God expected him to trust that God could overcome Sarah's barren womb. Abraham knew that the biblical pattern for marriage (from the Garden of Eden) was for one man and one woman. Abraham stepped out of God's plan and tried to fix God's problem by impregnating Hagar. There have been astronomical consequences to that mistake. FGG, you can trust God by faith and restore things with xW which I believe you know is the right thing to do. You are going to struggle with this because you see Ann as the ideal process in fixing your "alone" problem. Abraham thought Hagar was his ideal fix as well.

I believe God is putting you at a crossroad of decision. I suggest, if you decide to reconcile with xW, that you take full advantage of her vulnerability and establish yourselves into a great local church with a loving pastor whose understanding of xW's problem will help you both restore your marriage. I also suggest you take this very slowly.

I am going to suggest the following course of action:

1. Explain to Ann what has happened. She has asked you to be patient with her and you need to ask her to be patient with you. She was fearful that this may happen and you both need to see what impact xW can have on your relationship. Ann's children do not need to know about any of this right now.

2. Try to reconcile with xW and see if she is sincere or only that her remorse has triggered a depressive swing from her mania. You cannot rush this and you cannot become romantically involved during this time. You must not allow xW to manipulate you and she must be willing to fully cooperate with you. She cannot hide anything from you during this trial period. You must explain to her that if she denies or resists any request from you to check into anything you want to know than you will take that as an indication of her ingenuine attempt to gain what she is losing. You must be very confident and determined during this time and do not allow anyone to manipulate you including your children.

3. If you find that xW is not genuine and you feel at peace with God about Ann, then marry Ann and move on with your lives.

This is a very good thing that has happened even though it is difficult to see. It will either show you that you still belong to xW or it will give you peace about being with Ann. Honesty about all of this with Ann is very important.

I see that you are giving this some more thought. That is a positive. I have to say though, if I were Ann, I would walk away. If she is not your first choice for a spouse at this point... why should she settle for someone that would pick someone else before her? There would be no reason for her to enter into a M with you at this time since you have made it known that your ExW is your first choice.
JMHO.

Well, that was an interesting perspective. I think your friend is a very wise man. I'm not sure what 2 say about it, though. I agree with quite a lot of what he talks about strategy-wise WRT your xW and restoration of your family.

But I doubt this will work, and this is why:

".what kind of a relationship would I be wanting if I keep secrets from Ann? I never, never kept secrets from xW."

What is conflict avoidance but a form of secrecy?

I'm sure you can grasp what I'm getting at here. What your friend describes would indeed be very difficult - in the best of circumstances where you are able 2 be completely honest with both women you're involved with (keeping them both "in the wings"). But it will be impossible if you can't shed your conflict avoidance once and for all.

-ol' 2long

If it matters at all, I agree 100% with every single thing that your friend says....

When was FGG's Ex FWW diagnosed BP? I must have missed it.

I agree; wise friend.

CC:
I recall that she was diagnosed and put on meds...unless I am not remembering correctly and the meds were just for depression. I know I thought she had BP...it was discussed on FGG's other thread. It always seemed like there was some form of mental illness going on...some of her behavior didn't seem typical of the average wayward spouse.

Many of us suspected that there was some psychiatric problem, but as far as I can remember there was never a diagnosis. I remember the discussion on the other thread. If it is true that she is BP, I think that the enthusiasm over FGG getting on with his life wouldn't have been so "enthusiastic"...

I swear that I think that my Ex WW has BPD from what I have read and studied. Tough to deal with.

I do recall thinking of the in 'sickness and in health' vow. I believed she was ill so divorcing, when he moved on to divorce, I wasn't convinced it was best. I think I may have said something like that along the way....but I may have only thought it. He should have waited 2 yrs after the divorce for everything...that was always the ideal, but once he didn't, I tried to be supportive of his decisions. I just wanted him to be happy and not be too presumptuous to think I knew better than he.

I was very disappointed when he was having an A before he was divorced. He was weak but I am glad he finally fessed up..to us...at least. He needs to fully disclose to his XW before any reconciliation can begin.

CC, I think you've been wise to wait for your WH's A to run it's course, as you have been doing. You have seen the examples of those here who have moved on too soon and then not wanted their spouse back even after the A ended and there was remorse.

Trix, trying to be true to myself, and with the knowledge I have acquired with Dr. H and all the people on the forum, I have no choice but to wait. Any other option seems to eventually be more difficult...

But this is not easy. Many times I think of what peace I would have if I were to just divorce him...

((((cc))))

thanks mimi.

Someday I hope to need your help, so please stick around!

I hung in there longer than two years and it worked out well for us. I didn't do a real plan B..we have a business together.

GGG, I like your friend, and his advice. He has insight. Your xW never did seem to me to be a run-of-the-mill adulterer.

I like all that he wrote, er, with one exception, that is.

He leaves out the medical treatment aspect. BP is usually, not always, but usually, treatable. If you are going to attempt reconciliation with xW you should, IMO, take her to see a qualified Dr. Go with her. Get on board with her in an aggressive BP treatment program, and then see how it goes for a year or so.

Make it part of a written list of conditions you both sign.

With continuing prayers,

ed: Conditions is not the right word. Joint goals for a new realtionship is better. Yeah. That is better.

Aphelion -

Now that GG is here, ahem...... Can we talk about the fact that he is engaged, and that folks from California to Austrailia and South America know that he wants his wife back, but his fiancee STILL doesn't know?

Bel,

"Can we talk about the fact that he is engaged, and that folks from California to Australia and South America know that he wants his wife back, but his fiancee STILL doesn't know?"

Sure, 'till the cows come home. Won't make any difference to a CA though, will it.

Besides, I'm not sure Ann doesn't know. Woman's intuition thang, I suspect. I think she knows, has known.

What is needed most is for FGG to tell her, for his own sake.

Of all the people who are going to get hurt in this, and some rather hugely, FGG risks the most.

So much CA'ing.

Calling God is good. Calling friends, professionals and counselors is good. Calling MB is good. Over and over, even.

In the end, acting ethically is all that is required. FGG already knows what is required.

With prayers,

I do hope that he can align his actions with his values. To me, that is essential in a life well lived.

Well said Believer!

I believe that earlier in this thread when he was telling about the phone conversation he said that she is on medication and now able to see how she had been to him. I'll have to go back and look. I got the impression that she has been stablized with the meds.

I went back and didn't find it...maybe I was just reading between the lines and assuming...I seem to do that....sometimes I am wrong.