Oh my, Pep...makes me feel like I want to be James Dean and Braveheart rolled into one...

No, I've not read it..not heard of it..but kind of like the premise...

edit - you know anything about it...do you recommend it?

a few years ago we had a "wild" thread about this book

I found it useful to read, as a woman ... in order to better understand true masculinity

it was pretty hard for me at first
and I prolly ought to revisit the book

my husband LOVED IT

If I read it...it may trigger even more of a MLC!

I'm game...I'll try it...

Good night.

'Wild at Heart' is by Christian author: John Eldredge.

At the risk of punning shamelessly <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> -- G.G. you are not alone!

I was exactly like you, which is why I didn't do what ***I*** needed to do to grieve the end of my marriage. I jumped... held my nose... and hit the bottom of the pool. It's taken a long, long time to get back to the surface. That's why I have come to your thread to tell you that I understand... these are not platitudes... this was my reality, as well. I """get""" you.

You are being given an opportunity that I also had, but squandered. You have the chance to have NO REGRETS... and there is almost nothing in the world that is a better gift after divorce... I truly believe that.

Best wishes to you...

And my hope is that at the end of this leg of your journey... you have peace ... whether it is with your ex-wife, Ann or all by yourself.

God bless!!

I highly recommend WILD AT HEART.

However, I still say that LOVE AND RESPECT helped me understand my H the best and my H voiced strong agreement with LOVE AND RESPECT as I read out loud passages to him...especially since LOVE AND RESPECT focuses on that ADMIRATION need which also seems high on your list.

Looking through my highly underlined copy of LOVE AND RESPECT last night, there's a chapter towards the end about a man's intense need for SHOULDER TO SHOULDER COMPANIONSHIP ...the need for his woman to just BE THERE with him. Maybe you sorely missed this after all those years of having your wife THERE with you. I can't imagine my H being ALONE for any length of time...

I've read somewhere that widowers remarry soon after LONG TERM MARRIAGES. I think the adage is WIDOWS MOURN, WIDOWERS REPLACE..Maybe this has been partly your GRIEF WORK...Maybe it's from a BOWLBY book on LOSS..I'll keep looking...

Mimi..always trying to find an answer in a BOOK...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Good Morning all -

NB II...I know this should be obvious, but I'm not quite sure what you mean:

"You are being given an opportunity that I also had, but squandered. You have the chance to have NO REGRETS... and there is almost nothing in the world that is a better gift after divorce... I truly believe that."

Can you elaborate?

Mimi...I have read most of L&R. Truth is..when it looks like I'm going to need those principles, I can read eagerly. But..I find it very hurtful to read such when I'm alone. So..I have stopped reading it and relegated it to the bookshelf while I continue reading "1776". Probably shouldn't be that way...but true.

I suppose this goes without saying, but to the point you make. It is the COMPANIONSHIP that I miss more than anything, eclipsing by far SF and other such things. I have been considering buying a HDTV, but I just rarely enjoy sitting down and watching a movie alone (even though I sometimes do). The same could be said about just about everything....

Georgia

EXACTLY what is talked about in that section of the book...

I'd be interested in what you have to say about it...

How about just reading THAT CHAPTER?

will do...

AHAH...Smart and knowledgeable woman that I am..I knew it was BOWLBY..all it took was a Google..

http://psychsoc.gerontologyjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/55/4/S197

Could be important info. in this concept for you..I think..
attempting to relieve your anxiety?

Hi again, GG,


Yes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If you had married Ann without going through the necessary grieving...

... perhaps always wondering in the back of your mind if you could have saved your family...

... maybe looking at your new wife and thinking that as good a person as she is, as much as you adore her... maybe you made a mistake moving so quickly...

... or you have ANY "if only" feelings ("if only I'd given her a chance to find healing"... "if only I'd taken the time to learn about BPD"... lots of "if only's")....

If any of that happens (and it did for me, and I suspect it would have for you)... you live in a he11 of your own making that is dragging not only you, but the people you love the most in the world, through the muck and mire of possible (if not probable) regret.

I have been married to my second H for over five years now... and I'm seriously, SERIOUSLY telling you that the first year was spent in a puddle of tears and confusion... because even though I loved (and love) my H VERY much, I wished I'd waited and grieved the loss of my first marriage alone -- or rather, close to my family and loved ones. Instead, in my case, I not only moved away emotionally, I moved physically.

The second, third and some of the fourth year was spent beating myself up over the regret of my choice to move so quickly and definatively... and trying to decide if another divorce or staying married and miserable was my punishment for being such an idiot. In the end, and after much discussion, prayer, meditation and angst, I chose to honor my vow to my second H and do what I could to repair, mend and make amends to those I harmed by my decisions.

You see, GG, regrets don't just harm you... although they harm you most, I think, if you're a thoughtful person. Regrets for people like us are usually about the harm/pain we cause OTHERS. Isn't that what you're worried about?

So, again, my only advice to you, as someone who's travelled this road before you... is to STOP. See this as the opportunity it is: A fresh look at your life BEFORE you make drastic changes that affect not just you, but others you love.

Understand now?

yes, I understand

......

oh
wait

were you talking to me?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yep...time..to stop..to do..your GRIEF WORK....

Oh my NBII...that was so poignant.

Thank you so much for a very meaningful expression of your grief. As you've expressed so openly, let me add some things that have been heavy on me even before the xW call:

When Ann came here...she was resigned to live here. Talked about finding a job in her vocation...loved the ranch with horses, etc.

When I got there...I was SHOCKED...yes, SHOCKED..to see the closeness of her and her gk's. All the while thinking to myself that there is NO WAY I could ask this woman to leave this...she loves them so much and they her. That would be such a cruel thing to ask someone to do...and why? for my own selfishness? Hardly.

Thinking of me moving there...well, I'm just now feeling like I'm really getting the R with my own sons repaired and getting really close again, at least to #1S. And, I will have gk's in the not too distant future. If I had a granddaughter (I know I shouldn't discriminate, but heh...we're being honest here, right?)..and I was on the other end of the country...oh man....I don't know how I would handle that.

And...on the "regrets" thing...(I'm sorry this is so long)...

I remember the closing chapters of my marriage. And some of you here will remember....

There were multiple cases of ..."well, if you only go through this, then you will know you have done everything you could do". Do this, do that...explore this, explore that...is there ever really an end to the "if only I had" questions?? Is this just one more in a long line of the same, or is there some real glimmer of hope? (if that's the right word at this stage of the game).

My friend WOF seems to have experience here...with her rekindled start with her xH.

So..really...if i allow this newest development to run it's course, find out where it's going, then do I reach a point of "no regrets"? NPII, please don't take what I'm saying as debating you..but I have to wonder if some of your torture is unjustified?

But yes, the message you send is valid.

"Regrets for people like us are usually about the harm/pain we cause OTHERS. Isn't that what you're worried about?"

Yes, that is so true. It hurts me so much to know the pain that I have already caused others...and that just seems to compound on my own grief.

Okay, enough of my little addendum to yesterdays pity party....

Work to be done..the free world is at stake..

how to minimize harm to others?

know thyself truely ... very very well ... that's how

What was the matter with having a "pity party" yesterday?

Are you running away from those feelings?

YESTERDAY WAS GOOD....

When will you know you have done all that you could and that you will have no reqrets, FGG?

I believe that the question should be one to yourself, getting as real as possible with yourself, and asking yourself if you still want your marriage with your XW. Whether or not she wants it at this point is not part of the equation in deciding if you in fact are done or not. It is all about you in answering this question.

If she got treatment which allowed her to be a healthy, stable, loving partner, would you want to be with her?

If she didn't get well but wanted to get back together with you, would you want to?

If you are harboring any fantasies (look deep within) then you are not done with this marriage and you need to stop being so eager to move on.

The questions should always be what do we want, if anything were possible, what would you want to see happen?

And then act accordingly. At some point you will either get the opportunity to rebuild your marriage or you will no longer entertain any notion of rebuilding with her. You will have crossed a bridge and be ready to love again, with someone new.

This is what it means to have no regrets, and only you can answer what that will take on your end to accomplish.

I had said in an earlier post that I think what you were doing was entirely normal for someone who had never been alone as an adult. Normal, predictable and probably required for you to get to the place you need to be to settle into you new single life, and to become comfortable with and even embrace your solitude (thanks 2long for the reminder).

I love my time alone as well FGG. I love having a weekend to myself to listen to my music, read my books, talk to my friends and I have for a long time now, but it wasn't always this way.

And now I'm in a really good relationship so the times we are together are so very much enhanced because we each bring newness into the relationship with our own individualness and interests, and especially our time alone.

I'm not trying to give advice here, but I think if I were you I would really try to determine if I still wanted my ex, and put all other romantic relationships out of the picture until I didn't want my ex anymore.

Hang out with your new friends, your sons and their families.

See who this new FGG is. Enjoy it, this time of growth and the opportunity to be totally self absorbed in your own healing and discovery, it may never come again you know. This opportunity.

I thought Pep said something astounding when she asked "do you know who you are when you are alone?", and probably more importantly... do you like that person?

Once the grieving is over, and the self-discovery begins...life gets really interesting and fun.

Sorry so long and rambling.

Mimi -

I was just reading your post to Poprock..and I'm going to cross-thread-jack your statement (is that permissible?)

"But another MAJOR FACTOR was the fact that my H thought I WAS MOVING ON..He became afraid that he was REALLY LOSING ME when I put our house up for sale, sold it the first day and was looking for a house of MY OWN..."

That is the type thing that SH described (to me) as "shock therapy" to knock the WS out of their drunken stupor...the moving out, buying my own house, filing for D, etc...

What really, really did it for xW (again, IMO) was to find out that "her husband" WILL NOT forever be sitting in a little house, alone, on the other side of town just waiting for her to return.

The morning xW called me when she found out that I was engaged...one of the things she said (through her tears) which I still remember, was something like "I'm afraid I've really messed up this time".

One thing I think you'll want to research is the long term affects of BPD meds. We have a friend who has been on them for many years. Along with stablizing his BPD they have also caused permanent damage to his brain/or personality. That is JMHO. He is a changed man, subtle though the changes may be.

He did have periods where he would go off of his lithium or whatever else he was taking and relapse. He would become manic and delusional. He spent a couple of months in a mental hospital.= at one point.

He has had to take anti-psychotic meds periodically.

His first wife left with their 3 kids when he committed himself for a week the first time he realized he wasn't well. They divorced and he wasn't able to maintain a close relationship with his kids. He remarried, only to divorce again due to his 2nd wife's infidelity. He is on disability and living alone. He doesn't seem able to establish another relationship with the opposite sex. He is a lonely man and totally focused on his disability.

I know nothing of the differences of type II from regular BPD. I know not all cases are the same. Some seem better able to function fine in society.

I am trying to digest all that is being said here, as well as what is going through my own thoughts, and formulate a cohesive dialog for SH tomorrow.

I'm not sure where to begin, other than to just tell him about the call last week.