To all:

I seem to have struck a nerve. I guess that's good. If I hadn't, this whole very wrong discussion would have gone unanswered and, like it or not, venting or not, even hinting at there being justification for murder is wrong.

First of all, I apologize to anyone I wronged here, but the whole tenor of the post was in itself very wrong, IMHO. Here is what goes on in my mind and you can take it for what it is worth.

A - I was not referring to you in any way shape or form and did not mean to do so NC007. Sorry if you took it that way.

B - Sometimes, however, I get the idea from many BSs that we FWSs (and I am definately FWS) are nothing but evil people, which is not true.

C - I cannot possibly understand fully what goes through the mind of a betrayed spouse. That much I admit, but neither can a betrayed spouse understand what goes through the mind of a FWS (I mean FWS), but, as I said, too often I feel when I read some of this stuff that we are, and I have read many posts - not venting posts - that tell the FWS that they are lesser human beings than those who may not have fallen prey to temptation. Again, this simply is not true and, while I have sinned, sometimes I think other people need to take a look at what they have done to others.

D - Don't take what I said in C to mean that what has or has not been done to me in the past is any justification whatsoever for my sin, adultery, etc. It is not. However, whether or not someone cheated on another person does not justify minimizing murder. Adultery is adultery and it is, in itself, murderous. Murder is also murder and stating that the real victim is the murderer is wrong. I won't apologize for that statement.

E - Myschae, I tried to recognize that you felt murder was wrong under any circumstance. If I was not clear enough, I apologize.

F - Let me quote a few of the responses I read that made me angry. I apologize that my response was so strong, but other than you Mrs. W, try and understand my feelings when I read something like:

hmmmm.... justice.
Very good people are, at times, driven to insane acts by their partners cruelness(things they NEVER would have dreamed they were capapble of). I've locked up many of them and have felt sorry for each and every one. It is hard to feel sorry for the victim here... yet I have real sorrow for the true "victim" and the time she will spend in jail for his crimes. Every WS should read this and realize the pain they are inflicting could come back and bite them a thousand fold. Very sad. Plan M.

Or

I feel for his family... but feel more for her and her family. I see her as the victim of his actions....not the other way around.

Or

I'm pretty sure the dentist I was speaking of got LIFE...

I was SOOO SURPRISED..so UNFAIR....

Is it right, even in passing to say it's unfair to hold someone accountable for a murder because they were wronged? In my opinion, and this could be my own hangups (probably is), talk like this can be incendiary and can lead to situations that could be tragic for ALL the victims involved.

G - NC007 - I don't take what you said as being a 2x4, nor do I take it amiss. You and I both know there is no way I can understand a BSs pain, but in the last 15 months, I have done my very best to do so and have done a lot of praying and reading. To the extent I can, I have tried to understand. No fog here.

I am very glad for all BSs when they share their stories and their pain. If it were not for another BSs post on a different board, I would never have understood the need for my wife to have total disclosure. When I read this particular BS, it helped me sooooooooooooo much to understand that all questions needed to be answered and I am very grateful for that. I do not believe all BSs are "holier than thou". Far from it. It's a miracle that they can find it possible to still love their FWSs (or WSs) and I apologize for making it sound as I did. I hope you will all forgive that blunder.

I am not insensitive to the pain of the BS. I get verrrry angry when a WS or FWS won't be fully open to the pain of a BS and have written on that subject several times. I don't think BSs are bad, evil or perfect, nor do I think they think they are perfect.

OK, I have written a bunch of words to say this:

I came on strong and I am sorry.

I admire BSs and do not think negatively of any BSs. If I made it sound that way and I am sorry. Even with regard to Mimi - I think it's pretty cool that you and husband are in reconciliation for so long.

I am glad I broadened the conversation a little because I didn't like the way it seemed to be going.

Myschae - Sorry if I misrepresented you. You seem like a pretty wise person to me.

Hope you guys will forgive any wrongheadedness on my part, but I am not sorry for expressing my view that there were some definite statements in the posts that were wrong.

God bless.

First off, I do not believe that we are all capapble of cheating. I know my opinion flies in the face of Dr. H on that one... but I just do not think it is true.
Second... there could be mitigating circumstances... but they have nothing to do with the A. Sorry, again, my opinion.
Look, I can debate this all day long with you guys... unless you have seen it... lived it like I have, you would not understand. There are good people that commit murder... to me that is a fact. I have seen it with my own eyes... have put the cuffs on their wrists.... sat in court where a sometimes and sometimes not understanding judge or jury sees it the way I have.
Bad things can happen when people are put in terrible positions.
And you are right... there is something "wrong" with these people. That doesn't mean there was something "wrong" before the affair.
My opinion. Doesn't really matter to me if anyone agrees with it or not. I have seen it with my own two eyes.

medc,

I believe you!! There are good people who commit murder AND adultery but neither of those acts are good or dismissable no matter the circumstances surrounding them. I also believe that strong, healthy, ethical people neither cheat on their spouse or "snap" and kill people. If somebody raped my child.....I wouldn't *snap*....I'd just consciously choose to shoot him in the face and do my jail time. However....there isn't a cheating man on the planet who could "make" me *snap*. I've been raped repeatedly AND cheated on more than once....and I've never even come close to killing somebody. Please don't tell me that I don't "know".

mkeverydaycnt:

You asked a question and I want to address it, now that I am in a nicer state of mind. First, as I just said, I am definitely FWS. I suppose that part of my response, and I apologize, is that I still can't forgive myself for what I did.

As to what I would do to a spouse that murdered their spouse because of an affair, I think they would deserve the same treatment as any other murderer who committed a crime of passion. It's wrong and there is no reason for it. Period.

That doesn't mean I wouldn't understand why they did it. But I do not think anyone who murders another person has any possible "excuse". The law recognizes the difference between crimes of passion and premedited murder and I accept the law's definitions for that. Just like I don't think anything or reason justifies the cybersex in which I engaged, I don't think there is any justification or reason to give a pass to someone who murders someone.

I am sorry, once again, to have responded so angrily. Consider it a crime of passion. And, by the way, I am very sorry you and any other BS had to suffer for the betrayal of another. I grieve every day for the sin I committed.

By the way, I am not real enamored of anyone still involved in an affair. It really makes me mad when I read that the WS left to be with their affair partner. That is so very wrong! Strange for me to say that, isn't it.

Thanks for the conversation. I have enjoyed learning a few things today.

Jim...

I think you brought up an important point in one of your posts...That you are having a hard time forgiving yourself...Perhaps that is why when you read those posts it struck something inside of you...See, when I read posts about a WS, I don't take that personally, because I am NOT a WS, but a FWS...I find myself OUTRAGED at the behaviors of WSs-my PAST behaviors included...I don't feel that anyone on these boards thinks that I am an evil person because of my past...maybe they do, I don't know, and it doesn't really matter...The only people that it really matters to is my husband, Mr. W, and the lady that looks me in the eye in the mirror everyday, KWIM???

No Worries...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

I posted this article because I think most BS's can relate to the intense anger this woman had. Imagine pepper-spraying someone you had shot twice in the head. Kind of ridiculous to a normal person.

I don't know any of the details. But there is probably a lot of background - lies and gaslighting.

believer,

As a betrayed spouse....I can absolutely identify and relate to the intense anger this woman felt....as well as "thoughts" of wanting to kill a spouse that had "potentially" exposed her to STDs (I read several of the articles....and she only suspected....didn't know if she had an STD). But that is a far far cry from acting on those thoughts. It's the same difference between "wanting" to cheat because your marriage is bad....but NOT cheating because you understand how unethical it is. I might want to kill somebody....but I wouldn't do it for the same reason I wouldn't cheat. And I don't look any more favorably on folks who do either one....they're both messed up when they choose so badly. It's just all sad, tragic and preventable. As jim says.....I consider all of them "crimes of passion"....not excusable....but sometimes predictable given certain circumstances.

Star -

It is sad. There is also the case of Betty Broderick, who shot and killed her WS and his OW/new wife. When I first heard about it, I thought she was whacko. But when you read her story, her WS lied, gaslighted and humiliated her for 5 years before she snapped.

I took my guns to a neighbor cop on D-day for safety. Didn't want to end up in the slammer for the rest of my life, or do something I would later regret.

And maybe we should be sure to tell BS's here NOT to confront a suspected WS with a 45 in their pocket.

I certainly do not condone murder, whatever the cause.

But what I got from reading the story, and the BS responses to it it, there but for the grace of God go I.

I can understand that woman's desperation. I have walked in her pain. I have had access to multiple firearms, and would not even have had to bother purchasing one.

It is not a holier-than-thou attitude to realize that, without God's restraining presence, I could easily have been driven to that woman's place by the things my H did to me as a WS. And being an equal-opportunity kind of gal, had I killed one, I would have killed them both.

Before this, I would not have imagined myself capable of anything so heinous. Now that I know I am, it makes my all the more grateful to God for filling me with love and forgiveness instead of hatred and vengeance.

Jim, if you have earned your F, you need to stop standing with the group of condemned WS's. And yes, they are condemned. But any or all of them can choose redemption, just as you have. You are not a part of their way of life any more, and need to embrace your F.


You've been washed, so do not ever again allow yourself to wear the shame of the adulterer. Yes, the effects of your sin will live on for a long time in the wounds and scars on your wife, and even on you, but your guilt is gone.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

believer,


I've read extensively about BB....she didn't "snap" after five years....she snapped right from the start. She had the perfect upbringing, with the perfect romance, life, children etc....and when it fell apart because her H was a jerk....she couldn't hold herself together. I pity her....deeply....but don't identify with her.

Good synopsis here: http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/family/broderick/1.html

She couldn't imagine life without Dan....and began her string of destruction the minute his affair was discovered....ceaselessly until the end. She showed increasing neurosis that escalated to the point of double homicide. There is no doubt that her husband was cruel, manipulative and disgusting beyond belief....but she was absolutely pathetic in her inability to protect her children or herself from her quest for vengeance. Her children repeatedly witnessed, and were exposed and victimized by her unbridled search for vengeance. Long before she shot him....she burned all of his clothes, vandalized the home over and over, spray painted his walls, and drove her van through the front door of his new home. These may be things BS's may daydream about....but very few people actually do these things consistently. She went to jail several times before she murdered he and the OW because of her repeated vandalism. Dan Broderick was a monster of biblical proportions....but BB was an absolutely weak, neurotic woman with serious mental issues I can't identify with her at all. There just isn't a man on this earth worth the things she did to herself or her children. I remember watching the whole special on "American Justice" about her and feeling so sorry for both her and her children. I'll never forget the tape of her little son begging her to stop using bad words. She brutalized her children with her need to hurt her husband back. It was especially tragic that they ended up hating her and none go see her in prison. She does however still see some guy named Brad who she met during separation. Since being in jail her legal problems have not ended....she assaulted a guard and is being sued.


Maybe we're all capable of "snapping" just like we're all capable of "infidelity"....but I ain't prone to neither one!! I think it's tragic....but the whole "there but for the grace of God go I" thingie....Nope....there's no "grace" in either act and I'm in no danger of doing either.

My husband (nor any other man) is just not powerful enough to make *me* crazy over a divorce. I'd walk away with nothing and find somebody else before I'd dedicate myself to destroying his life at my own expense and the expense of my children. And I don't have low enough self esteem to go crazy enough to shoot him....I have KIDS!! I saw her interviews....she was scary.

"My husband (nor any other man) is just not powerful enough to make *me* crazy over a divorce. I'd walk away with nothing and find somebody else before I'd dedicate myself to destroying his life at my own expense and the expense of my children."

Star - I think this is a key statement. After the first few horrible months, I realized that I still could have a good life, no matter what my WH chose.

star, i am one of "those people" who snapped. my mind shattered into splinters and i have lost over a year of my memories.

before all of this i was a balls out type 8 personality....in fact i brought 8's to a new level. lol not one person who knew me would have thought this would have happened to me....in fact if you asked them they would have probably brought up the name lorena bobbit.

to this day i believe god put me in a state of suspended animation to save me, my children, and my then ws. and no...before this i had never had any mental health problems. in fact the first time i divorced i went to counseling and after a few weeks the counselour asked me why i was going. my answer was i was waiting for the "crash". she said i was the most stable person she met....lol

people do snap, with no previous history of mental illness. people do snap and dont kill. even the strongest of us knows not what our brains will do to protect us......

it could have been me......

believer....I know you have <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> and I've seen you take back your life. I've seen your personal recovery transcend the destruction that your husband wrought and I've felt priviledged to witness that transformation. There is great power in understanding your own ability to be happy despite the sins and and cruelty of infidelity. I look forward to hearing what happens next. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

nikko,

I'm one of those people who don't snap....and it's not because I haven't been tested or traumatized enough. It will take more than infidelity, divorce, sexual abuse, severe physical/emotional abuse, rape, rape of my daughter, death of too many loved ones, loss of a baby, civil wars etc. to make me snap because I've already BTDT. I'm sure that some people will splinter and go into suspended animation....but the discussion is about people who splinter and become violent or kill. I will probably not splinter either....but I can understand and identify much more with that scenario....where I would just "shut down". I definitely "blocked" out some of the really painful details of the rapes....but I never became as disconnected as you did.

The difference is that you didn't kill someone in that state.....that's another whole line to be crossed. Do you think you're capable of being driven to kill?

I know I used to imagine shooting my then WH and his OW for all the reasons stated...gaslighting, humiliation,lies, major betrayal....I even imagined being hauled off to prison and sitting on death row...but in reality..they weren't worth it...but I did fantasize the scenario many times.

I was left with a bad case of Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome....it lasted a while.

We've been nicely reconciled for going on 4 years.

and for anyone here that has equated an affair with a "crime of passion" you are dead wrong. And affair is hidden.... requires planning... invloves deceit...etc.... sure there might be the very rare exception... but it is not a one time spur of the moment act. Now, walking in on your H or W screwing someone and grabbing a gun and whacking the both of them... IS a crime of passion. Just thought that the legal perspective might be important here.

I can tell you that I have never been a violent person or an angry person but had I not had the custody issue with my children to consider I think I might have beat the OM to pulp and then turned my EX WW over my knee and gave her a good ole' spanking (okay probably not but I would have liked to)

You said you could be driven to kill... just not for infidelity. Child molestation(you would calmly shoot them in the face).... and I agree with you. But Star... I can make a strong case that for the victim of an A, the hurt inflicted upon them can be much worse than in many other horrible crimes. First it is inflcited by someone that you should be able to count on not destroying you. So, not only do you suffer the injury over what has happened... but you also suffer the loss of having the one person in the world that you should be able to count on being the perpetrator. You seem all reasonable and say you wouldn't snap...you might be right when it comes to adultery...but we all have our breaking point. All of us. You can say it isn't snapping but I guarantee you that any psychologist or attorney would look at it differently if you were driven to do something you never would have done without the "stimulas."

the short answer is i have no idea. i NEVER BELIEVED I WOULD HAVE A MENTAL BREAKDOWN.....in fact i sounded a lot like you. i have been through much of the same trauma's as you also....and i walked away stronger and prouder of myself each and every time. why this happened.....i havent a clue. and that is the point star......you say you are one of the people who dont snap....so was i. what you are is one of the ones who hasnt snapped yet my dear....and i pray you never do. for someone as strong and confident as you seem....recovery is long and painful. believe me i know...i was you.....