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Thanks AmI...I had thought of you too, but I know that you are around much these days...the wonderful world of recovery! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


LL, AmI knows what she talking about...I wish you and your baby well....please let us know how things are going...

Praying for you and DD!


A loving heart is the beginning of all knowledge.
Thomas Carlyle
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S4B, AmI, MEDC

Thanks for all your advice and support yesterday. I finally got DD2 returned to me last night. I don't really know what my next step is going to be with my WH. He is too far gone to hope for much except maybe some peace after our D is final. I have been praying. That is all I can really do at this point.
I am going to call his Lt on Monday. He will be furious, but with the order of protection in place I will not have to bear the brunt of his anger. I am also going to pursue getting a GAL in our divorce. It will be costly and difficult, but I feel that at this point I have to protect DD2. I will not allow her to be used as a pawn by WH in our divorce. He has been lashing out at me through our daughter since the order of protection was put in place.
When WH finally returned DD2 to me, he looked at me with contempt and said, "See you next week", then winked at me and smiled....It gave me chills, still does. That is his way of telling me that he thinks he has won this round. It is amazing to me that he has no fear of consequences for his actions. He truly believes he is untouchable. I was reading vikingruler's thread a few days ago. His WW sounds a LOT like my WH. His story hit such a chord with me that I bought Malignant Self Love and started reading it. I am only about 100 pages in, but WH most likely has NPD. Sam Vaknin lists the following 9 criteria for NPD. Meeting 5 of the 9 diagnostic criteria can result in a diganosis of NPD.
1. Feels grandiose and important (exaggerates accomplishments, talents, skills, contacts, and personality traits to the point of lying, demands to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
2. Is obsessed with fantasies of unlimited success, fame, fearsome power or omnipotence, unequalled brilliance (a cerebral narcissist), bodily beauty or sexual performance (a somatic narcissist), or ideal, everlasting, all-conquering love or passion.
3. Firmly convinced that he or she is unique and, being special, can only be understood by, should only be treated by, or associate with, other special or unique, or high-status people.
4. Requires excessive admiration, adulation, attention and affirmation - or failing that, wishes to be feared and to be notorious (Narcissistic Supply)
5. Feels entitled. Demands automatic and full compliance with his or her unreasonable expectations for special and favourable priority treatment.
6. Is "interpersonally exploitative", i.e. uses others to achieve his or her own ends.
7. Devoid of empathy. Is unable or unwilling to identify with acknowledge, or accept the feelings, needs, preferences, priorities, and choices of others.
8. Constantly envious of others and seeks to hurt or destroy the objects of his or her frustration. Suffers from persecutory (paranoid) delusions as he or she believes that they feel the same about him or her and are likely to act similarly.
9. Behaves arrogantly and haughtily. Feels superior, omnipotent, omniscient, invincible, immune, "above the law", and omnipresent. Rages when frustrated, contradicted, or confronted by people he or she considers inferior to him or her and unworthy.
Interesting reading. It has definitely helped me identify how my actions and interactions with WH help feed into his NS seeking behavior.


Me, BW 33 WH 38 DD3 Married 5/3/02, together since 1998 D-Day 11/6/06, 12/4/06 WH attempted suicide 2/5/07 Plan B 4/16/07, Plan D 4/30/07 Order of protection filed 5/3/07 (irony not lost on me) D final 10/7/07??? My Story Ongoing Saga
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read this HERE

I am with MEDC

do NOT "expose"

this is a very very dangerous man
he is a "snake"... like in the story in the link

you know this

so do NOT be fooled that he is a puppy

snake = snake behavior
do not forget this

you do NOT poke a snake
do not expose
it does not matter

higher priority is to GET in position where he cannot hurt you

contact your losest women's shelter and ask for tips/pointers/references for keeping safe

divorce him
do not expose (ie; poke the snake with a stick)

let your lawyer do all the talking

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contact your losest women's shelter and ask for tips/pointers/references for keeping safe

You can also get some great professional help through your nearest women's shelter. From my own experience, when a women's shelter calls the local police, they get instant cooperation. Well at least in my town. The director of the women's shelter here is a serious piece of work and nobody but nobody wants her to get on their case. If she asks for help, she gets it right, friggin, now.

And they listen real good, most of them. You have nothing to lose finding more support.

Larry

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I have to back up that advice of help from the woman's shelter...they have really helped me and I continue IC through them...

This is definitly not someone that you need to remain Med too!

You are doing some wonderful work protecting you and DD...you keep that up and you will be okay!


A loving heart is the beginning of all knowledge.
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I am having a hard day. I have been reading some of the posts by people who have made a sucessful recoveries, or who have a spouse who has expressed his remorse over his affair and are starting to work towards recovery. I don't know why but this makes me so depressed. Why couldn't I have that for myself? Why, because I married a man that is incapable of feeling remorse or guilt or thinking of anyone but himself. I am so down on myself today. How could I let this happen to me, or even worse to my daughter? I was so niave. I am just so angry at myself. I hate feeling this way. This description of Philandering posted by Pepperband is my WH. Where have I been for the last 8 years?
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Philandering

Philandering is a predominantly male activity. Philanderers take up infidelity as a hobby. Philanderers are likely to have a rigid and concrete concept of gender; they worship masculinity, and while they may be greatly attracted to women, they are mostly interested in having the woman affirm their masculinity. They don't really like women, and they certainly don't want an equal, intimate relationship with a member of the gender they insist is inferior, but far too powerful. They see women as dangerous, since women have the ability to assess a man's worth, to measure him and find him wanting, to determine whether he is man enough.

These men may or may not like sex, but they use it compulsively to affirm their masculinity and overcome both their homophobia and their fear of women. They can be cruel, abusive, and even violent to women who try to get control of them and stop the philandering they consider crucial to their masculinity. Their life is centered around displays of masculinity, however they define it, trying to impress women with their physical strength, competitive victories, seductive skills, mastery of all situations, power, wealth, and, if necessary, violence. Some of them are quite charming and have no trouble finding women eager to be abused by them.

Gay men can philander too, and the dynamics are the same for gay philanderers as for straight ones: the obvious avoidance of female sexual control, but also preoccupation with masculinity and the use of rampant sexuality for both reassurance and the measurement of manhood. When men have paid such an enormous social and interpersonal price for their preferred sexuality, they are likely to wrap an enormous amount of their identity around their sexuality and express that sexuality extensively.

Philanderers may be the sons of philanderers, or they may have learned their ideas about marriage and gender from their ethnic group or inadvertently from their religion. Somewhere they have gotten the idea that their masculinity is their most valuable attribute and it requires them to protect themselves from coming under female control. These guys may consider themselves quite principled and honorable, and they may follow the rules to the letter in their dealings with other men. But in their world women have no rights.

To men they may seem normal, but women experience them as narcissistic or even sociopathic. They think they are normal, that they are doing what every other real man would do if he weren't such a wimp. The notions of marital fidelity, of gender equality, of honesty and intimacy between husbands and wives seem quite foreign from what they learned growing up. The gender equality of monogamy may not feel compatible to men steeped in patriarchal beliefs in men being gods and women being ribs. Monogamous sexuality is difficult for men who worship Madonnas for their sexlessness and berate Eves for their seductiveness.

Philanderers' sexuality is fueled by anger and fear, and while they may be considered "sex addicts" they are really "gender compulsives" desperately doing whatever they think will make them look and feel most masculine. They put notches on their belts in hopes it will make their penises grow bigger. If they can get a woman to die for them, like opera composer Giacomo Puccini did in real life and in most of his operas, they feel like a real man.


Me, BW 33 WH 38 DD3 Married 5/3/02, together since 1998 D-Day 11/6/06, 12/4/06 WH attempted suicide 2/5/07 Plan B 4/16/07, Plan D 4/30/07 Order of protection filed 5/3/07 (irony not lost on me) D final 10/7/07??? My Story Ongoing Saga
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I just visited my WH's myspace page. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> I feel physically ill. He has his 16 year old daughter (from a previous marriage) posting pictures of women to his myspace. She has cleverly added captions like, "OMFG check this out", and "D@** this girl is hot daddy", "Add this hottie to your friends!". They are half nude pictures, some with girls that are only maybe 17. I cannot believe he would carry on this way with his older daughter. A year ago he was furious with her mother for allowing her to have boys over when ex-wife was not home. Now he is having his daughter troll myspace for underage girls for him to date? There are no words that could describe how low he has sunk. Apparently there is no bottom to his downward spiral. Aside from this being disgusting and totally inappropriate, I am faced with the question of whether I should tell her mother? I do not have a good relationship with his ex-wife....Any input on this? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


Me, BW 33 WH 38 DD3 Married 5/3/02, together since 1998 D-Day 11/6/06, 12/4/06 WH attempted suicide 2/5/07 Plan B 4/16/07, Plan D 4/30/07 Order of protection filed 5/3/07 (irony not lost on me) D final 10/7/07??? My Story Ongoing Saga
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if there are naked or semi naked pictures on a 16 year olds My space page, contact the local police and FBI. Whoever gave her these pictures has committed a felony. If they went over the internet, it is also most likely a federal issue.

MEDC

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OKay...YOU have to pull yourself up out of this...YOU CAN NOT check his myspace again!

prepare for 2x4...his daughter is acting on her our accord...she has choices and she's choicing to do this...This is NONE of your BUSINESS...

It's very hard to reduce the drama in our lives at this point in time for us...BUT this is YOUR job right now!

As for allowing yourself to be put into this sitch, sweetie, you have to let go of that guilt! Yes, you picked him, but you didn't make the bad choices that has led you to where you are today! WH DID THIS, all on his own, hand that guilt back over to him!

I can say this because I have been in the same frame of mind that you are in right now! THIS IS NOT great self-care, THIS IS self-sabbotage...NO SELF-PITY...

The main thing is YOU ARE DOING WHAT you need to care for your daughter and you RIGHT NOW! So, you made a mistake, OKAY! You're learning from it and you are getting yourself out of this mess! Is that not the sign of a strong, couragous woman?

I strongly recommend focusing on YOU and not WH! You are creating a spiral for yourself...when you start thinking stuff like this made yourself STOP! Change your thinking, focus on the good things that you ARE doing!

What kind of support do you have set up? YOU MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS! It's tough but you can do it! And you will even surprise yourself!

You feel like crying, CRY...then wipe your tears, dust yourself off and stand tall, b/c YOU WILL get through this!

Focus on YOUR recovery! If you ever want to talk, just email me! You are in the right place!

I'm here for you only out of care and concern! Look at all YOU have accomplished so far! WOW!


A loving heart is the beginning of all knowledge.
Thomas Carlyle
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I will humbly disagree on one point only... since she is aware of this information, it is now her business to at least make sure the proper authorities are notified. Beyond that, you are right, she should stay out of this and not bother checking the myspace page again.
Reducing the drama in her life will be key to her personal recovery. A call to the authorities and an anonymous letter to the mother with the information is as far as this should go for LL.

MEDC

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S4B,

You are right. I am having a big ol' pity party for myself. That 2x4 really hurt. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I am having real difficulty accepting that this person is my husband. I did make a huge, HORRIBLE mistake marrying him. That is a really bitter pill to swallow. I guess seeing him truly for what he is will make me better able to move forward with no regrets. Honestly, I haven't made many mistakes of this magnitude in my life before. I have always been a careful person who thinks things through before acting. I wish daily that he hadn't pushed me to the point where I feel this way about him. I guess I need to work on distancing myself from him and his family, for my own sanity. I hope that gets easier to do as time progresses. Thanks for the advice.


Me, BW 33 WH 38 DD3 Married 5/3/02, together since 1998 D-Day 11/6/06, 12/4/06 WH attempted suicide 2/5/07 Plan B 4/16/07, Plan D 4/30/07 Order of protection filed 5/3/07 (irony not lost on me) D final 10/7/07??? My Story Ongoing Saga
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LMAO...YOU ARE GOING TO BE FINE!

And, we all make mistakes, it's what you learn from them that count...the question is how are you going to not repeat the same mistake? Why did you pick him in the first place?

That's what I'm trying to learn, so I don't repeat history! This is the perfect time to learn about yourself, that's partly why I asked about support...and what about IC to help you?

There are tons of resources out there...FREE...that are available, if you only look...to help you get back on solid ground...

LMAO...You just have to "want to want it"! I hear that from time to time and I didn't get it at first!

Did you see MEDC's post?

SO, outside of WH and D, what's going on in your life? School? JOB? What? what's keeping you busy besides DD?


A loving heart is the beginning of all knowledge.
Thomas Carlyle
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S4B,

I don't have much occupying me right now. That is part of the problem. I have huge amounts of free time to obsess and be unhappy at my situation. I do have a full time job which I love (I work at a large pharmaceutical company in R&D). Other than that I am trying to keep busy. I have been scheduling fun things for DD2 and I to do together on the weekends. This weekend I took her to our city museum and to a tumbling class. I attend church most Sundays. I don't have many friends outside of work. WH was always very controlling of how I spent my time. Most of my frienships have lapsed into mere acquaintances in the 5 years we have been together. I am working on having some me time with adult people.


Me, BW 33 WH 38 DD3 Married 5/3/02, together since 1998 D-Day 11/6/06, 12/4/06 WH attempted suicide 2/5/07 Plan B 4/16/07, Plan D 4/30/07 Order of protection filed 5/3/07 (irony not lost on me) D final 10/7/07??? My Story Ongoing Saga
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Good, you have some direction and something to keep you busy...i understand the friend thing...I was the same way...we had "his" friends, so I've been working really hard on some friends on my own...

It was horrible being closed off from everyone...and now, I have a lot of friends...Is there a D care group at your church? That may be of some service to you! i started out doing things with just the boys and have branched out from there...

You on the right path, LL, I understand what's going on...been there, done that! I still work hard every day to keep focused on the goal at hand...

It's hard not to blow things out of proportion but it can be done!

You're going to be just FINE! just look at all the amazing stuff you're doing now...dealing with the D, handling your business, taking care of DD, working Full-time, attending church, etc...that's great! You're doing your stuff everyday!

i like to use the phrase "Just for Today!"

For example: Just for today, I am bring F to the dentist, and I am working my job!

I'm not worried about tomorrow or Wed.'s meeting with the judge and laywer's...that will ALL work out...Just for today, I am happy! If I allow myself to think of yesterdays and tomorows then I start to spiral...so unhealthy... so let those what if's and could/should haves rest...there's no point! waste of energy!


A loving heart is the beginning of all knowledge.
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MEDC-

You and I rarely agree...but...I completely agree with the advice and help you're giving this poster. Glad that you were able to give her the guidance she needs.

LLL-

I'd seriously consider the advice you're getting here...I think that you really do need to focus on protecting yourself and your family at this point. Any thoughts of reconciliation need to be put on hold until the crisis is past, and your WH becomes 'safe' to be around again. Given what you described, I don't see that happening without a LOT of counseling and work...if ever.

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Just talked to my attorney. WH and his attorney are threatening to take us back to court unless we agree to modify our temporary agreement to include two overnights. They would like to change it to say that I drop her off at 6:30 p.m. the night before his day off and pick her up at 6:30 p.m. on the evening of his last day off. I am half tempted to tell them to go ahead and try to take me to court. I am not going to be blackmailed by an insane person. My two problems with this proposal are:
1. He has not honored any agreement we have made so far, what is going to make this time different?
2. He has lied about his days off to get more time with DD2. He knows he is on the short end of the negotiations because of his job and erratic schedule, so he lied about it. He has planned to dump her at his mother's instead of taking her to daycare. Which I never agreed to.
I feel like that no matter what I agree to he is going to try to pull crap with me. Everything on his terms. On the other hand I need something solid in writing so that I can fight him if he tries to go outside what I agreed to. I don't know what to do. I think my attorney feels we should give in on this point so I can move on with the divorce. I just don't want to be blackmailed into hastily agreeing to something I am not going to be happy with, or that will have us back in court in a month again. What I really would like to do this: ask for a signed copy of his schedule from his supervisor. Is there any way I could ask for this? If his schedule is going to become an enforceable part of our agreement, then I want to know he is not just picking days out of the air. Am I being unreasonable?


Me, BW 33 WH 38 DD3 Married 5/3/02, together since 1998 D-Day 11/6/06, 12/4/06 WH attempted suicide 2/5/07 Plan B 4/16/07, Plan D 4/30/07 Order of protection filed 5/3/07 (irony not lost on me) D final 10/7/07??? My Story Ongoing Saga
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No, you are not being unreasonable. Based on his actions so far (suicide, abuse, requiring an order of protection, failing to abide by the previous agreement, using DD2 as a pawn) I would say this man is dangerous and it is your duty as a mother to keep your DD2 away from him as much as possible. Let him have money--equity--whatever because that can be replaced, but STAND FIRM ON YOUR DD!!! Don't budge an INCH!

I would suggest that you have your attorney subpoena his schedule from his work. That way, it is court-enforceable and not just "LLL being a b*tch". As soon as you have the schedule IN HAND, then let the attorneys and the judge duke it out. Don't listen to his threats--don't give in to his threats--and more importantly DO NOT give you little girl back to him until the agreement is in writing and enforceable.

HE IS DANGEROUS. HE HAS ALREADY PROVEN BY HIS ACTIONS THAT HE IS WILLING TO HARM HIMSELF AND HIS LITTLE GIRL IN ORDER TO HURT YOU. HE IS DANGEROUS!!!!!

If you need more help, please email me any time at the email address in my signature.

Your true and faithful friend,



CJ

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Here is a copy of an email I just sent my attorney. Hopefully he is willing to work with me on this issue. My attorney seemed really frustrated by all the drama that has been going on recently between WH and I (well mostly the drama WH is creating). He is trying to push me to settle on this so that the divorce moves through more quickly. He seems very concerned about me remaining married to WH and slugging it out long term in a divorce battle. If we don't get this worked out by tomorrow I fear it is back to court for a second hearing. This one will not be pleasant. If they request a new hearing I am not caving on anything, I will request that all these issues be heard before the judge.

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LL's Attorney,

I am not trying to be overly difficult but....I would like something added to the agreement. I want a signed schedule from his supervisor included as the document in the agreement. I am relying on his word that this is his schedule and frankly he is a liar. If he is willing to provide this, then I will accept the change in drop off time as proposed to include an additional overnight. If he won't provide this is there any way we can force this issue? I have real concerns about this custody/visitation issue. Frankly this is the only sticking point in the divorce for me. I don't care about the house or anything else. He is an unfit parent and irrational in his behavior, and has shown this time and time again. I feel like I am being blackmailed into complying with what he wants. Why? Because he is being difficult? Not a good reason to expose my daughter to his dangerous behavior by giving in to his crazy demands. I know this is costing a lot of money and your time, but this is really soooo important to me that we get this right. Everything else will move much more smoothly. I really need some reassurance that:
1. This agreement is going to be somewhat ironclad and not open to interpretation by him or anyone else.
2. That DD2 is actually spending time with her father during these visits and isn't being shuttled around to various relatives or babysitters. Can we stipulate if he is working during one of his scheduled days that he be required to drop her at daycare?

Last edited by lieslies; 06/13/07 07:20 PM.

Me, BW 33 WH 38 DD3 Married 5/3/02, together since 1998 D-Day 11/6/06, 12/4/06 WH attempted suicide 2/5/07 Plan B 4/16/07, Plan D 4/30/07 Order of protection filed 5/3/07 (irony not lost on me) D final 10/7/07??? My Story Ongoing Saga
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I just talked to my attorney this afternoon. WH and his attorney came back with a list of ridiculous demands that they knew I would never agree to in this round of negotiations. WH's attorney said that this is the last offer they are going to give me before requesting another temporary custody /child support hearing. Now WH and his attorney are demanding
1. A third day of visitation a week.
2. That I drop the order of protection or add a clause that says WH can call me at anytime regarding DD2
3. That I be required to drive 40 miles to pick up DD2 at 7:45 in the morning from WH local police station (before heading in to work, which is btw over 55 miles from where WH lives)

This new plan removes everything WH agreed to in the first temporary agreement. I don't know how his attorney can back these ridiculous claims. I would be ready to dump his case if I was his attorney. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I guess I am going back to court next week. Not to mention I have not gotten any child support from him since early May (he sent me a $200 check). He was due to pay the arrearage amount plus all of June, and his spousal support by June 15th. It is now the 13th with no money in sight. I am starting to lose faith that I am going to come out of this okay. I talked to my spousal abuse advocate today and she cannot believe what is happening. She said she has never heard of a case that went back to the judge after an agreement was signed. Hopefully they really do have very little legal grounds to bring this back before the judge.
So to sum up my case so far......WH is adulterous, abusive, attempts suicide, stalks me after I try to go to plan B, violates a court visitation order multiple times, and fails to pay court mandated child support. But he deserves a second custody/support hearing because this is all so unfair! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> SERENITY NOW!
Too bad I am a Christian and don't believe in karma. WH would be coming back as a cockroach. Or worse yet a dung beetle. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />


Me, BW 33 WH 38 DD3 Married 5/3/02, together since 1998 D-Day 11/6/06, 12/4/06 WH attempted suicide 2/5/07 Plan B 4/16/07, Plan D 4/30/07 Order of protection filed 5/3/07 (irony not lost on me) D final 10/7/07??? My Story Ongoing Saga
lieslies #1772968 06/13/07 08:10 PM
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Well, if he's going to be difficult and you're going to be back in court, this is the time to request the GAL and supervised visitation. You may also want to consider contempt charges on the previous visitation screw-ups, and on the CS and spousal support payments if they aren't made on time.

I'd also think about going for him to have to pay your attorney fees, too, since the reason you are back in court again is that he wouldn't abide by the agreement that he already came to.

You may not get all that, but you can't get it ifyou don't ask for it. And I'd most definitely NOT drop the RO. He can contact an intermediary if he has to get ahold of you regarding DS.

Good luck, hang in there. What did your lawyer say about this crazy turn of events?

-AmI.

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