mkeveryday....

I can speak of marriage builder principles here since this is marriage builders..

there are a million different ways to deal with an affair partner...

and each one is a choice...

I happen to believe out of most of the road maps out there for those that want to attempt recovery....

that these principles make the most sense....
these priniples offer the most grounding....

if you don't think that... that is fine....

there are no garuntees....

I also believe that when one truly plan A's with NO EXPECTATIONS of ANYTHING and I do mean ANYTHING in return...

that it free the BS from chaos.....

it is very empowering to learn to give of oneself with NO expectations of return...

but it is only for a short time period for it can be wearying to the soul....

sounds to me like 75% that are unhappy post affair..should divorce..for they aren't recovered...why linger in a marriage like that?

but remember that 75% statistic offers no insite in to what the exact behaviors are that lead to that unhappiness and how much of that is being addressed and worked...
how much is post and pre affair behaviors etc...

I'd say a high percentage of people (not the ones here) but those not following a plan...
most likely settle
and move past without dealing with the issues.....
by ignoring and never bringing it up again...

are and would be unhappy....

make no mistake plan A has lots of boundaries and protection plans....
available for use...

BS can kick the perverbial [censored] out of a WS anytime they want....
but to me that's chaos...
I much prefer direct eye contact...a soft tone....and drop dead serious words....with great impact...

ARK

Ark...
you do make very good sense.

It also frees the children from the chaos.

It is also an opportunity for tremendous self growth for the BS.

And it shows the children a better way to deal with things.

Mimi... if you are going to ask ridiculous questions... at least pretend to read what I wrote first.

Did you not see where I wrote the goal and ideal is to save the M?
Did you not see where I wrote that the Harley's give a person a chance to recover?
Of course you did... you just like to get out your little soundbites and ignoring parts of the post make that easier for you to do.

Ok, MEDC.

This is when we part company. I was going to try to have a conversation with you. I couldn't read past this sentence.

Having been a BS, for whatever reason, I can't bear folks talking to me in this manner and I don't continue in conversations with them.

IMO, you are being RUDE AND DISRESPECTFUL of me by making this statement...

I didn't mean you a bit of harm by the question that I asked and was making a great effort to be FRIENDLY with you...

I know. You have every right to speak in the manner that you choose. I agree. I have every right not to continue with this conversation.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

bye.

From Penalty Kill

I was brought up by a PhD statistician - statistics were dinner table discussion. I took statistics courses in college (you would think I had enough, but no!). I am extremely skeptical when people quote statistics because I know how easily the numbers can be manipulated. (Not just you in this case, MEDC, I'm speaking generally here)

In the case of the 78% statistic, I notice that the source is "Anthony DeLorenzo, author of 28 Tell-Tale Signs of a Cheating Spouse and president of Infidelity.com".

I looked up the book and the website. Both appear to be very much geared toward divorce, rather than recovery, at least that was my impression. (The website is under construction, but one of the advertisers is a Family lawyer. And the site gives me the impression of offering many more tools to "move on" than to preserve a marriage, based upon the drop down menus)

So I wonder. If 78% of the people surveyed are so unhappy, why are they still in the marriage? And who are they? BS? WS? Both? What are their stories? How long since Dday? What are they doing to make their lives better?

Inquiring minds want to know. It is my impression from reading these boards that the experience of infidelity does differ. There are some WS who drop the OP immediately upon discovery, and there are those who continue the A. There are those who flaunt it, or break contact repeatedly. There are those who have one A and those who have several. There are BS who take a hard line and BS who do a stellar plan A. There are BS who feel "recovered" after a year and those who feel they need more time. There are so many factors that I cannot accept a broad statistic like the 78%. It's just not enough information - for me at least.

YMMV.

I wondered the same thing... I found some "answers" on several different sites (one being AARP of all places!!!) that suggest that about 60% of men put off divorce for their kids sake... about 40% of women cite this as the reason they have not divorced after an A.

I don't see the website referenced the same way that you do... but certainly understand your point. The same could be said for this site which has an incentive for people to work on their M's and appear happy while doing so (it sells books and counseling time). I guess every stat will be scrutinized... rightfully so. I just look at it more from an experience perspective... what have I read here... what have I seen in my life... and use the stats as an adjunct to those things.

beleive me that I struggle also with these issues...

the pain
the destruction
the gut wrenching visceral response when reading here...

many many many times you think...

F THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

but I keep looking for the humility...

that we all fail....(but I don't buy it was a mistake...) mistakes aren't direct actions.....)

but we are human...

so I try to find the humankind....in each story....

some never had it to begin with...and people should cut their losses....

some to me are souls hanging in the balance...between heaven and litterally in my opinion [email]he@@[/email]

some are cruel and evil personified...in their terroristic acts....
they can be lost forever..or a long long time..

woe to them....

ARK

I may not agree with all you say Ark... but your sincerity and heart come shining through in your words.

Thanks.

A few thoughts I wanted to put out there:

1. Perhaps Marriage isn't supposed to make us happy but bring us closer to God. 75% ain't a bad number anyway... 50% of first marriages end in divorce regardless. I too, believe MB likely has better odds.

2. Plan Kick Butt IS eventually God's plan for the unrepentent WS. In the same line, I personally believe the devil gets some satisfaction over getting the BS to apply plan Kick Butt. It is tempting. A married couple IS one flesh...the demons influencing the wayward are also influencing or tempting the betrayed spouse also...it makes sense...they have access. What would Jesus do???

3. If Plan A is done right there is LESS chaos. The AD's are to be used by the BS's as they process the shock and pain until they get to a point where they can effectively Plan A then Plan B. If and when you truly "accept uncertainty" the storm can become pretty calm. You can move to a place where you have peace with your own life, accept the bad as part of your life experience and move on with or without your spouse knowing you did all you could to live up to your vows. Plan A is the ultimate of Act, Don't React.

4. I still firmly agree with Dr. Harley...we, as humans, are ALL susceptable and capable of being wayard given the right circumstances.

5. If Plan Kick Butt fails...will the BS continue on after the divorce with more or less (regret, self-esteem, integrity, etc) in comparison with Plan A, then B????

6. Affairs are addictions...If you discovered your spouse had a cocaine or even a prescription drug problem would your initial inclination be plan kick butt?


Mr. Wondering

In one sense statistics regarding affair recovery are meaningless, since there are so many variables to be considered on a case by case basis.

Most of us seek statistical support as a means of hope: "What are the odds that I can save my marriage?"

It seems clear to me that most betrayed spouses want to save their marriages.

Plan A makes sense, but obviously it doesn't always initiate recovery no matter how well it's implemented.

In that event it's not a complete waste of time since it might be considered good practice for your next relationship

Mr. W:

In case you just might want to know, I agree with every single word that you said..a ZILLIONTH PERCENT!!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Besides most BS's aren't capable or prepared to do Plan Kick Butt...it's only in hindsight...especially by those that ended up divorced that this "Plan" is seen as being the more desirable or at least competitive alternative. The divorced posters often believe that it would have worked or not worked but at least it would have been a quicker resolution. However, the BS's that arrive here have for the most part sought out a different plan. Plan Kick Butt is instinctive. It's really not a plan but a reaction. It can work but for the people that show up here I believe the MB approach is better.

Mr. W

Perhaps Marriage isn't supposed to make us happy

I love this...

I have three kidlets...

I don't wish for their happiness when they grow up..

I wish for them to be good honest people...
kind
noble....

happiness is no garuntee...it's not even really an action...

but to be good people....
to know their own value as they value others...
and to act accordingly...
that's what I wish for my kids....

no garuntees....
just keep at it like dripping water on a stone...

ARK

Pittman says "marriage isn't supposed to make you happy, it's supposed to make you married."

He isn't just trying to amuse us with this, he means it.

You better be a happy person before you actually get married, otherwise the joy you experience in the beginning is likely to fade away quite rapidly later.

I don't think plan "kick butt" is instinctive. I think collapse and breakdown are more instinctive when it comes to being assaulted by those you love most. I think that Plan A has its place...but think that when it is not working... some spouses need a swift kick in the rump to get them going... one way or another.
And I would handle an addiction to drugs exactly the same way. Not everyone responds to the "nice" approach. And I too believe the MB approach is better... in most cases.... not all.

In my opinion, this is the road to happiness.

Marriage isn't supposed to make you happy because happiness comes from within.

Agreed. But being married to a person that abuses your trust can certainly make you unhappy.

Not everyone believes in God. I disagree about 75% not being a bad number.... but see your point.


Not always.



Not a chance in my opinion. Some of us would NEVER do that to one we love. NEVER. Harley has no proof of this... this is a theory. I know I would NEVER do this. I know some others that feel the same way. And I mean NEVER.

I have not, nor do I advocate plan KB as the intitial response... never said it, never will.... don't think it is the right course.... so it is hard to address the rest of your post since I have not advocated that.