ark and weaver thanks for the input. I have to admit I haven't even started to think about plan B. I did a lot of LB'ing in the 1st month before I posted here. clinging, reasoning and the such, making us both nuts. I guess my plan A is still pretty new, maybe 2 wks if that. Good advice though, I will put some time into thinking about plan B. while I am hoping for NC. thanks again

That was a great post Orchid! Thanks.

[color:"blue"]See the WS is taught (yes, taught - this is a learned thing, not a inherited thing)..... taught NOT to want the BS t/b happy or move forward.[/color]

Genius I tell you.

What is this, some sort of perverse sense of self worth assessment?

In martial arts we call this redirecting energy. I often think of MB’s as Affair-Fu. It’s bringing a technique to the table that a WS can not comprehend. It’s not exceedingly difficult to grasp the concepts; it’s just that they have NO IDEA what they are and it knocks them off center just enough to make them think sometimes and stick their heads out of the ship if only for a moment.

Plank, I agree about being changed forever. I know this is a wake up call for me. while I don't think my M was all that bad before. I would never want to go back. and its only been a few months. I feel like my eyes are wide open. For better or worse we are now different people. somehow, we as individuals need to be knocked off balance occasionally, then when we regain our stability it is stronger than before. we become more worthy of what the world has to offer because we realize the gifts that are so precious. If I get another chance with my WS, I will invest more than ever before and apply that process to all aspects of my life. Maybe that's the benefit of plan A, better focus on whats important. I strive to be a better mother, wife, sister, human being. Not just for everyone else, but for me.

Fightingback,

Part of my agenda for posting this subject/question was subconsciously hidden I think.

It’s very important for FBS’s/BS’s to have hope. That is the ambrosia that feeds our emotional future.

Most people that have suddenly been thrust into a life of absolute upheaval due to infidelity are so shell shocked that they can not readily process all of the life changing information that is being thrown at them.

So, I wanted to reinforce the idea that NO MATTER WHAT, anyone that has been betrayed through adultery has the opportunity to change for the better; regardless of the way their situation shakes out.

That approach definitely helps the BS take pressure off of themselves and focus more on the important things that are really going to matter to them and their families in the long run.

So true. Hope is energy, and without this energy what needs to be done in order to bring about what you want cannot be done.

If you believe that hope is energy, then the concept of false hope is meaningless.

There is always hope, if you want there to be. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

weaver, hope is very valuable.
so many people in my life, actually, every person except those of you here, have advised me to dump WS at the side of the road. "get on with your life" "protect yourself, before WS leaves you, sent WS packing" initially I tried to listen, but now I realize that I am in control of my lfe. I choose to believe in WS when there are no other reasons to. I will never be able to live with myself without knowing that I gave all I could to this relationship. good or bad, I will know when it is time to plan B. taking control of my life has been surprisingly enriching. and I do have hope, I have hope for the future because I know that I will be happy, with WS or without. and I am OK with the uncertainty of life right now, because I know things can only go up from here. life has so much in store for me. I am excited to find out what that may be.

From a post way up there:

"We can all become very skilled at being good M partners, but IMO, at some point you cross a line where you are no longer who you are."

Two cents, with change back -

Who I am now is not who I was during FWW's VLTA, and who I was during her VLTA is not who I was when I married her, and who I was when I married her is not who I was when I first met her. More and more as she trained me to become a better H to her, the H she thought she wanted, I became less complete - less of an individual. I gave up huge parts of me to please her - over and over again. I changed who I was so I could meet her ENs to the point that is all I was - a walking, talking, never ever an LB or AO, EN meeter. I was no longer an individual. I was a nameless slave to HER ENs. And I did not even know it.

You might say I was the perfect, archetype example of the best H MB and Dr H could ask for. Yet she still had a 10 year VLTA.

Each of the me's in the above sequence was a smaller, lesser and more bland person - until now. FWW almost broke me long before I discovered her VLTA. But never again.

I have a much better me to live with now than I have had to live with since I met her. And it has almost nothing to do with her. It has everything to do with the personal improvement side of the Plan A coin. And it requires serious loving detachment to think about oneself for a change.

IMO, it's always good to reinvent oneself, become completely new, every once in a while. There is nothing interesting in being the same person all one's life. As long as the new person is an improvement, that is.

With prayers,

"I have a much better me to live with now than I have had to live with since I met her. And it has almost nothing to do with her. It has everything to do with the personal improvement side of the Plan A coin. And it requires serious loving detachment to think about oneself for a change. "





Aphelion, I think you are talking about me!!
I feel the same way sometimes. I gave every ounce of myself since the day we met. I guess you CAN give too much. I see now my reason for giving was a self motivating process. I could only feel good, happy, content if WS was feeling good, happy, content. ( can you say codependent) and the loving detatchment thing is so uncomfortable, but every day I feel incremental change. not elation, but security almost. I have always believed in others readily, effortlessly. now I am finally starting to believe in me.

So it seems like there are two types of BS's, those that gave to the point of losing themselves and possibly the respect of their spouse, and those who were too self-centered, to the point of their spouse becomming disconnected from them or looking for the meeting of emotional needs elsewhere.

So it would be very important for the BS to really examine the improvements they need to show the WS in their Plan A. The Plan A must be specific to what was lacking in that particular marriage and not generic.

Appy, I'm still confused as to whether one should change who they are to meet the needs of their spouse or not, or to what extent should a married person rely on themselves to meet their own EN's.

It's such a fine line. If I get married I do not want to lose who I am, but then again I do not want to be so much who I am that my marriage fails.

On changing oneselve throughout ones life though, I read something that had a profound impact on the way I viewed the possibilities for my own transformation in a quote from "Conversations with God" on Space's website -

"The question should not be who am I but rather who do I want to become"

Wow, how empowering is that?

The act of giving is such a valueable thing to examine...

extremely valuable in my opinion......

It becomes so many different things....

There are in my opinion those that sacrificed and gave (sacrifice and give) for the wrong reasons.....
and then turn around and use it as a weapon later on down the road...

I know women who take on super-human roles in raising the children...
there is no partnership...
it is their way or the highway....
and later lament and complain that this is what their life became/becomes though...they were the conductors in this creation...

I have a friend who complains about the way her husband loads the dishwasher....so who is shocked that he never does it...

I have a friend who has taken on the role of the young children so that when she needs her husband to watch the kids his own mother must come over to assist...
but it is she that has created this monster...and created a chasm between her own husband and the children.....

I know women who gave and gave and gave...then turn around and have affairs because they say all they ever did was give and give and give...and so they have an affair to fullfill some sense of perceived missing entitlement though they also orchestrated this role....within.....

I know women who use sex as a weapon..
withheld/withhold as a weapon

again and again I say the most overlooked and most underated vow we speak at a wedding is to cherish that person...


it's a slippery slope to villify and detach our spouses when we are angry with them...

it is very empowering and easy to remove ourselves not only from the behavior and actions we don't like....but from all of them totally....

it is my opinion as well that total detachment...especially of a BS towards a WS during plan A will be the demise of the marriage...

I also am not the most patient with people taking on comfort zones and using them against others as well...

people say things to define themselves....
and don't acknowledge them as actions but as facts...

examples...

I am more comfortable staying home....
I am not a much of a communicator with my emotions...
I never needed a lot of friends...

those are not defining aspects of character..

those are comfort zones...

changable only when challenged to change....

we cling to what we know...fiercely....
and we use those things to define who we are....as if they are the be all and end all of who we are...

yet the reality is we are just staying in a comfort zone...
afraid to try
afraid to change....

we can all learn to become comfortable with new things..but only when we are willing to try...

and it is a balance...
of doing for ourselves and for our spouses.....

speaking our emotions....when we do so for the sole purpose of speaking them ...and not relying on a predetermend response...
then we become free to speak our emotions

It is my opinion that in giving I have not lost who I am/was....cause when I was young I was a twit...
self centered
selfish...
me and my happiness
and all those wonderful traits ingrained in us when young...

it is in giving that I have learned who I am meant to be...
and I have found much freedom in finding joy in the act of giving and not in the response.....

ARK^^

very eloquent ark. I agree that the act of selfless giving for no other puprose than to give is an aimiable quality. For many years I thought that was who I was. it is only after being forced to re-examine who I am?, what I want? and why? that I am arriving at a better understanding of what drives me to do things the way that I do. And how resentment comes with giving all of yourself in hopes and expectation of recieving the same degree of love back. what is painful to realize is that I never gave WS any room to fill the gap in between, I was too busy filling her needs to give her any room to fill mine. now I am tasked with the challenge of winning her back with what?? In taking a serious look at myself and changing the way I deal with the world, I feel like a different person, I am beginning to act like a different person. for the first time in my life I am allowing myself anger, opinions, and I am trusting in myself. my MIL says she wants the old me back. well, even I don't want the old me back. that clarity is painful. but that is how we grow. I can only focus on my changes, and hope that WS will someday notice.

Ark,

I have been thinking about your other Plan A thread for a week or so now. On the whole I agree with your points. Especially the understanding that Plan A is a negotiation to end the affair, and is a dedicated effort to improve oneself overall as a spouse (ENs and otherwise.)

But, there is something about what you write that continues to bother me. I chew on it and chew on it, yet there are bits of gristle that just won’t go down.

So let me spit it out onto this metaphorical table, and we can poke at it for a while together and maybe identify what these remaining tidbits are I am not able to swallow.

Let me point out I had to deal with my situation and my situation only. And my situation is way out in the outliers. A VLTA is not your ordinary adultery. Especially not one with previous false recoveries.

First, there is an abiding connection, attachment the MB trained marriage coach I worked with called it, in any long term relationship. The BS must accept that this attachment to OP will never go away. To recover from a VLTA requires the BS accept place or show, not win. A tie, at best.

And second, if the adultery lasts much longer than the typical two years quoted by Dr H, there are fundamental personality issues in both WS and BS to deal with. And they have to deal with these on their own. I could not fix her, and she could not fix me.

In particular, the adulterers in a VLTA have long ago normalized their relationship. They have become their actions. It is normal life for them. The dopamine rushes are long gone. The excitement and illicitness has faded. There is nothing going on in the adultery but almost normal, ordinary, being married to two people at the same time bigamy. They have fought and reconciled many times, planned and acted upon their future, taken trips together, lived life to the fullest together for years and years. It is hard to tell who the spouse is and who the OP is in such an affair. The M is as much, if not more, an illusion as the affair.

Even if the adulterers were paragons of virtue before the VLTA started, they have become who they actually are long before the ending of it. These adulterers are very much like the People of the Lie in Peck’s book.

Extraordinary measures, Ark. Extraordinary measures are required to reclaim the soul of such an adulterer.

We can discuss these extraordinary measures in detail later. But for now suffice it to say they are not rooted in just more selfless giving. They contain quite a bit of the equivalent of Christ driving the money changers out of the temple.

And, they contain a large dose of, “Who have I, the BS, become during all these years of abuse?” For it is spouse abuse of the most egregious kind, ark. And, “How did this happen to me, why did I not recognize what was being done to me and stop it?” “What is the matter with me that I took this abuse for so long?”

As you surely know, abused spouses usually think they deserve it, or that things are supposed to be this way. After all, I married FWW in a nuptial Mass, after a long engagement and enthusiastic pre-marriage counselling and classes. I knew what I was promising, and I expected to have to endure both better and worse. I knew what I was doing, in front of God, family, friends and community, didn't I? I better put up with the reality of my marriage. I asked for it, didn't I.

And, I was so ashamed that I a grown man was treated this way for so long. It was an enlightenment to me to find out it isn’t only women who are abused in this way.

Only the personal improvement, radical personal improvement, aspects of Plan A helps the VLTA BS while wandering alone in this distant corner of the wilderness. The only oasis I drank from for years after DDay 2 were of my own finding, water from wells of my own digging.

Ark, perhaps what causes me the most heartburn in trying to digest your Plan A posts is the mashing together of too many separate and equal aspects of recovery. They are a stew made from some staples that do not taste well when mixed together.

Oh, and yes I agree, the saving of FWW soul was always uppermost in my mind. But I had to let her go. I had to turn her over to God, ark. I was going down for the third time on my own.

Loving detachment was my life preserver for a long time. It still is. (How long do you think FWS withdrawal from a VLTA lasts, ark? Hint – guess as long as the VLTA lasted from start of true NC and you will be closer than not.)

Next, we probably should define loving detachment. It is probably not what you think it is. It is close to unconditional love, but that is probably not what you think it is either.

With prayers,

ed: typos

Hi weav!

“I'm still confused as to whether one should change who they are to meet the needs of their spouse or not, or to what extent should a married person rely on themselves to meet their own EN's.”

So am I. Only by trial and error did I find my way through these brambles.

IMO, it depends on your spouse as much as on you.

On one end of the spectrum imagine a spouse who is nothing but taker. How well will you ever meet their ENs no matter how much you sacrifice? And remember, sacrifice in M is not good. It is not buyer mentality.

On the other end imagine you are pure taker. Changing yourself will make you a better person, by far. You will be immeasurably happier; rather, you will be joyful. So you should go for it in this case.

Somewhere in the middle? Seek balance. Seek to be a buyer.

I know you are not a taker, weav. You are quite well balanced, IMO.

With prayers,

I like 2 look back on my experiences over the past billion years... ...oh, wait a minute, it wasn't THAT long, just seemed like it... ...and think about what I've learned.

How many new notches have I carved.

I think one of the most important lessons I learned was 2 *listen*.

Listen, even when my WW wasn't saying anything 2 me. Or worse, when she WAS saying $h!t 2 me - that was designed 2 attack, deflect, whatever.

At first, when I was hurting so, I couldn't hear anything above my own roaring hurt (or her roaring AOs). After a 2ple of years, though, I could hear, and even2ally internalize, what her "legitimate" gripes about me really were, and work 2 change those behaviors.

I gained self confidence that many here talk about, sure. But I also got better at listening. And as a result of that, my W is getting better at telling me stuff that's on her mind. Before, I gleaned from things she didn't say. now, she ac2ally says things.

it's more better than that sounds. 2day, for example, she showed me an article on the web about "fighting" in marriage. it was a good article, touching on many things we talk about here, like the destructiveness of conflict avoidance.

Can you believe it? Those of you who know me and my sitch know just how profound a change that is.




2 tell you the truth, I don't look back on my experiences so much anymore as remembering the hurt, the struggle, the need for marital recovery. The whole concept is almost amusing 2 me now. I don't feel the hurt I felt 5 years ago. Pretty much not at all.

Finally, I'm able 2 respond, not just listen even. I can, because the stakes aren't high anymore. There aren't any stakes even.

I think that's loving detachment. Detachment from drama, for sure. That's obvious. But detachment from concepts I once thought were important, 2. Like controlling outcomes (the outcome that the marriage must recover, for example). It's ac2ally FUN 2 listen now. It's fun 2 offer feedback and watch her response (and my own response 2 her response). The best kind of "game" if that's the right word.

Plan A and plan B are important steps for most people 2 take in typical infidelity cases. While in the throes, they seem like the whole world. Recovery seems like what it's all about.

But it's not. It's just a step on the path 2ward wisdom. 2ward enlightenment.

personal growth.

nifty $h!t.


-ol' 2long

Aph...

I apologize that my words are difficult to swallow...and don't disagree with you

Also I know they come off very pollyanna which is not my intention nor even my outlook on life...

life sucks
and is hard.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I agree that there are many many beasts of different color to getting through WS territory...

I agree that I offer general caa-caa..which is not applicable to all...

I believe that long time affairs....are greatly in existence because they can be...

that it becomes what the WS and OP knows....
and they normalize to the point of I am sure when discovered come at you like feral cat cornered....

the defenses must be deep...and I think plan A and B do take a different route...

plan B should be much swifter
with direct mind spinning consequences...for surely if the WS has been doing this for so long....that impact would be greater because obviously they have done nothing to leave..

also long term affairs are even larger acts of disrespect..the choice use people to only fill their needs never freeing anyone in the triangle to master of their choices...

selfish
selfish
selfish..

my posts are offered in base plan A concepts....
each situation is unique...
my biggest mantra is don't plan A without a plan to pull out....

and alph...LOVING detachment is a good thing...
detachment.....without the ability to hold on to loving some part of the WS...is not in my opinion...

loving detachment is a necessary skill...
detachment not so much...

and Oh lordy you through that word at me...
you just had to...
unconditional love...
bleeech....!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

although 2long's come close to making me see the light on that one...
so perhaps it's not as hookey as I want to think it is...

and that mourning of a lta...you know if you think of it...they mourn themselves as well....all those ingrained patterns of contact.....clinging to the known...their whole routine....shattered....hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


blessings to you aph....

ARK

I don’t know, Ark. I am having trouble accepting your posts as caa-caa. Not least because I have a visceral aversion to having chewed on caa-caa for a week. LOL.

Re UL (2 long or SC can say this better than I will, I am sure):

According to James Dobson, among the primary emotional needs of human psychology are unconditional acceptance, unconditional self-regard, unconditional self-acceptance, and unconditional love. The usual meaning of the word unconditional is "without conditions or reservations; absolute."

However, if not careful, uninformed extensions of theories of unconditional love lead to a permissive attitude and an unrestricted moral atmosphere. That means no conditions or restrictions in child rearing, counseling, or in other human relationships (such as the self mirroring in an affair, for example). It must be an absolute love, unrestricted by human feelings or failings, since the very meaning of the word is "absolute."

But, if there is any absolute when it comes to love, it is that human love is limited. If seemingly unlimited at the moment, then eventually, eventually. Usually, one’s own ENs get in the way.

This definitely includes loving detachment when a relationship is becoming harmful to either party. Thus UL involves taking responsibility for one’s actions (or lack of) and all consequences. It includes clearly explaining what is wrong in the relationship and it may include turning someone over to their higher power. (Alanon helped me understand this.)

UL must include loving detachment as an integral part.

It is in fact the working definition of love is a verb.

I can still have a Taker with UL. But it is under my complete control. Perhaps it should be called more of an Accepter than a Taker. My ENs are much less important to me than her wellbeing.

A proper Plan B, with Plan B letter, is loving detachment. I even think it is actually UL.

Love as a verb = loving detachment = saved me, not only during the decade of the VLTA, when none of my ENs were met in the least, but also during the horrendous lingering aftermath of both D-Days. And it is saving me, keeping me involved even now.

So, in short, I aspire to the kind of love many saints exhibited during their lives (c.f. St. Therese of Lisieux). Love as an ideal, as well as a value. Mere feelings are transcended.

IMO.

With prayers,

PS: It’s been three years since D-Day 2 and FWW is tentatively a little bit occasionally self-consciously once in a while starting to kind of respond. Extraordinary measures, Ark. Extraordinary measures include extraordinary patience. Love is a verb can take a while to flower. And extraordinary patience is an aspect of UL.

once I said to 2Long this would become a spiritual journey ... and he told me I was nutz ... well it turns out ... BOTH of us were correct!

LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />Pep

What, that you're nutz?

That's obvious to the casual observer. lol.


ed: But we love you anyway, unconditionally, Pep.

What can I say? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long

I love this sentence...it is so Appy like. I especially liked that you included the word self-consciously in describing her sort of, almost, kind of... responding. It means it is hard for her, and you can see that.

It's been amazing to read both yours and 2longs stories unfold on this board, I have followed them closer than others because of the campfire, and there were many times when I couldn't figure out if either of you really wanted your marriage or not...but now I can see that those times were merely short set-back times, or times when you were emotionally triggered or times pershaps when you were unsure because the road had been so long and painful at times.

Where I am going with this is that you both had a clear idea of where you wanted (want) your marriage to go, what directions you wanted your new marriage to take...complete with how you relate to one another.

Basically I think you took a picture in your mind of a new marriage and set about to make that happen...starting with yourselves and keeping in the back of your mind that it may not happen, and if not divorce would still be an option.

You made a picture in your mind of what you wanted and you set a coarse, attempting to control only your own part in it and using the concepts of UL...patience, forgiveness, loving detachment, hope.

It has taken a long time but you both knew it would and set out on your individual journeys accordingly.

You focused on yourselves and your own growth hoping to draw your wives in and create a good marriage, a new marriage, but a good future if that didn't happen. No regrets with big rewards either way.

It's really very inspiring.


I'm trying to summarize your long Plan A's (with you Appy, your patience in your W climbing on board) and the reasoning behind them because for some this would merely be enabling based from fear, but for you it was needed.

I think the difference is in the level of chaos and that you operated under the knowlege that you cannot control/change another person, you can only set the stage. You had your goals, complete with a plan, and you set out on a coarse to make them happen.

I worry about some on the board right now that don't seem to understand how important a clear idea of what they need to do...goals, plans.

Do I got it about right?