I'm there! Only under one condition. We have to do the Hitchcock "Strangers on a Train" thing, and you guys have to come to Maryland and straighten out my WH, 'kay? Y'know, I'll do yours if you do mine. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

WHAT!? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Bring the WW up here and the Bee Sistah's. The laws are probably different and we can get away with more. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

We'll say she stole a horse......

I have to meet with my lawyer this morning to get ready for our court session to settle custody (already agreed), child and spousal support, and legal fees. And I'm all triggered about it.

I make about twice as much as WW, and I don't have any problem with paying child support. My preference would be to do it in a way where I can be sure that my money doesn't go to support OM in any way, but I can think of ways to make that happen.

But I don't want to pay spousal support. This is all her doing--she's the only one who wants it. When I asked her about it after the mediation session, it was like she hadn't actually thought about it. I think she's just walking forward in a daze (Must divorce . . . must be with OM . . . must divorce), not really considering any of what she's doing. If that's the case, she will probably defer to what her lawyer tells her, and her lawyer is likely to go for whatever they can get (and since I make more than she does, they will get it).

So I'm wondering whether I should try to have a conversation with her and tell her in a non-confrontational, non-angry way that I don't think I should have to pay spousal support. I think it could work. I think she has enough guilt feelings that she might agree to whatever I propose. But I have so much other stuff running around in my head (all of the conversation stuff) that I'm afraid it could turn into one of those conversations where I try to convince her of stuff, and we know how those work out.

Any thoughts?

Well, it was just that you guys were sounding so strong that maybe you didn't need us to come. But hey, I'm there. The Italian babes can wait. I'm married.

Wow, that collective sigh of relief that just carried over the continent seemed to come from Italy.

Phew! I thought I've been leaving the light on for nothing!
Just cause your strong doesn't mean you can't be stronger!

Yup, the Italian babes better just wait. You've got time, they'll still be there.

I don't know what to tell you about the spousal support, whether you should talk to her or not. It just doesn't seem right that you should have to pay her anything in support. Kids yes, her no. It was her choice to leave...

I feel for you today...being forced to have it back at the surface while talking to the attorney in prep for court. But you're stronger, and we're with you all the way. I could take a little Southern Cal right now....especially if it was a "business" trip. As in "taking care of business".

I don't think I favor talking to her at all. Consult your A. But you know your situation and your WW best. But please think long and hard before talking to her.

My thoughts on the right settlement would be letting Wayzilla keep whatever clothes she can put on at one time, a trash bag with her Gollum stained panties and a STD checkup coupon at a lower downtown clinic.

Fair is fair.

My lawyer ran some numbers, and the spousal support number is obscene. It's more than the CS number. If that's what they go forward with, I will be hosed. The court doesn't care that she's the only one that wants the divorce, they will put the data into the formula and turn the crank and I will have to pay. I believe that if I fight, I will lose. Unfortunately, there's a difference between what seems like "the right settlement" to those who understand the situation and what the court thinks. My lawyer said that not talking with WW right now is working against me (at least for this).

My take is that WW is moving along in the Fog, so she is likely to do what her lawyer and OM tell her to do, which will be get whatever they can from me. I think that I have a much better chance of getting her to agree to something more reasonable if I actually talk about it with her. I'm going to set something up with Jennifer to talk it over first.

And yes, it sucks having all this stuff churned up. Playing and replaying all the conversations in my head--trying to explain my perspective (that she went for the OM and never looked back; no real attempt at reconciliation--the last time I saw W she as much as admitted this; that it's a mistake; that we can be in love again; that it is hurting the kids, etc.). I think that I could do this calmly and without LB'ing, but would it actually accomplish anything? Gotta talk to Jennifer.

Weigh the opinions and advise and then go with your gut feeling. It has probably been right everytime. You will know what to do.

Talking to Jennifer----perfect plan. Let us know what you come up with. While a good marriage is the goal, you still have to protect yourself and your children from wayward bullchit.

Wish I could help more.

sdguy,

First, I realize that formulas are formulas. I also realize that you have been married for 14 years and thus you do "qualify" for spousal support based on years together. However, the idea of spousal support is supposed to be that one spouse worked a waitress job before the kids in order to put the other spouse through medical or law school...and then became a SAHM once the kids came...and now has no training or work experience to be able to support themself financially. Spousal support is the idea that the SAH spouse had reason to believe that they would have the financial resources of the lawyer or doctor spouse as the "family's" income. Sooo...the purpose of spousal support is supposed to be financial assistance for a few years until the SAH spouse can be trained or finish their own degree (whatever) in order to support themself.

Is your WW able to have a full-time job which pays a reasonable amount? And by "reasonable" I mean, more than double minimum wage. Does she have a degree of her own? Does she have work experience from over the years? If so, you might be able to greatly reduce your spousal support by arguing that she has the ability to support herself!!

I will be bold and tell you my personal numbers. My exH and I were married 15 years--2 kids. We owned a business together wherein he made $7k/mo and I made $3k/mo. He has an MBA, which I helped pay for and put him through--I have an associates in accounting. After separating, he had the ability to find a job earning $6k/mo without much hassle, and I had the ability to find a job earning #2.5k/mo with my experience and degree.

Technically, I think I would have qualified for spousal support using all the "formulas", but in my instance I chose to not ask for it, and if I had, I would have gotten a small amount for about 2-3 years (long enough to finish my degree in Accounting). Soooo...if you can prove that your WW has a degree in XXXXXX, and has been working full-time as a YYYYYY earning $Xk/mo for the last so many years--she has the ability to support herself and that will greatly diminish her spousal support!

Finally, if she DID work as a waitress to put you through law school and then became a SAHM--and if she has no training or experience--one negotiating tool you might consider is that in lieu of spousal support, you are willing to pay her college tuition--directly to the college of course--until she earns her degree and is able to support herself -or- for four years, whichever comes first (something like that). This way, your money does not go to supporting OM and it does directly benefit WW and your kids because she has the ability to provide for them better.

Just some brainstorm ideas to consider!!!



~~CJ

Thanks, CJ. What you describe is right on. My WW is an IT professional and was making $95k before she got fired from her previous job. She's not making that much now, but she can clearly support herself. With no support, she might have difficulty because San Diego isn't cheap, and she rented a 3-bedroom townhouse in an expensive neighborhood, but I am prepared to pay a reasonable (even more than the specified) amount of child support.

I *think* WW won't ask for much in the way of spousal support, but based on what my lawyer said, she can, and if she does, they will put in the numbers and it will spit out something I really don't like. WW seems to be moving forward with little thought to what she's doing, and most of the time she isn't malicious towards me (only when the mirror has been held up). I don't want to take the chance that she will blindly listen to what either her lawyer or the OM tells her to do if I can head it off.

I'm thinking I will put together a proposal wherein I pay for daycare expenses, make regular contributions to a college fund, and continue to pay into our joint checking account, from which we can pay for kid-related expenses (classes, clothing, medical, etc.). I plan to make the total more than what the formula specifies for child support but less than the what it says for the total of child support and spousal support. I think she will agree to it, and maybe I can do it by email, but I think my best chance is with a sit-down conversation. I believe I can do it. Like I said before, I'm going to talk it over with Jennifer.

It's pretty ludicrous to me that she has the affair, she walks out on the marriage, she files for divorce against my wishes, and she can still get this much of my salary when she makes so much money herself.

When I went to court (sans atty's mind you) WH said he didn't want to pay, I said I wanted it and they gave it to me...but it wasn't much after the CS amount (and I am on the other side of the coin-I did not choose to walk away).

If I had chosen to walk away, I wouldn't ask for a dime in spousal...but that is just me!

It stinks that the one who doesn't even want a DV gets the short end of the stick. I think it sometimes depends on the actual judge you end up with too and their take on adultery. My judge was not pleased with my WH...I got everything I asked for.

Do what jennifer recommends though...the bigger goal is the M not money, so do what is best in the long run according to the professional!

UGH!!!!!

Maybe if all the women on this thread hurt the WW and the men hurt the WH we could somehow even the scales...if nothing else it would at least be a little fun!!!!

IHC

Talking to Jennifer sounds good. I may be investing another chunk of change just to get her take on things. I like your idea of submitting a proposal for the benefit of the children. You are pretty savvy about these things.

Good for you, sdguy. It's great of you to want to set things up so your kids are so well taken care of. Although it will be to your WW benefit, the kids benefit the most. It's good of you to see that.

I'd like to talk to Jennifer again myself but just can't spare the cash right now.

Fox

One thing I want to prevent is writing a check to WW each month only to have her turn around and use that money to support OM somehow. It's only symbolic, I know, because me providing money frees up her money to do with what she wants, but still.

I wish I knew how far gone she was and how much she's being manipulated by OM. No way to know, I guess.

Here's another idea--

My exH did pay CS (we had two kids) and I did not ask him for spousal support (although by the formulas I could have). I figured I was able-bodied and had the ability to support myself, and this way I could get on with my life even if it was at a lower lifestyle.

Anyway, exH and I *did* agree to have him pay for medical insurance for the kids--and all medical co-pays--and for orthodontics (the statements went straight to him--I didn't pay a cent), and for the kids extra curricular activities such as baseball (the sign up fee, the uniforms, and all the equipment). That way, he was assured that "his money" was going to the kids and not to me. One kid did football and karate--the other one did baseball and drama.

HOWEVER, we did not continue our joint account. I would highly suggest that you negotiate to close that account ASAP, because if it is JOINT and she runs up a bunch of bad checks, you will be equally libel. Now, you may think, "She's not the bad check writing kinda gal" but you also thought she wasn't the type to have an affair and leave, so that is proven inaccurate.

What we did is close the "joint" account, each one of us opened a personal account, and then he had an account on which he was the adult and it had the kids' names on it as minors. They couldn't sign (they were too little) but it was an account ON THEIR BEHALF--their money. So he paid for the insurance, orthodontist, football, karate, baseball and drama out of the "kids" account...which he had control of. I suggest possibly something like this for you. Close the "joint" account between you and WW, and create an account specifically for the kids. If she wants to, there is no reason why you couldn't make auto-deposits to that account, but let her be in charge of the funds. Another option is for YOU to be in charge of the funds and have those things like daycare, doctor, all the "kid" expenses directly billed to you so that she's not even libel if you don't pay! Either she can control the cash but then she's responsible--or you can control the cash and YOU are responsible! Whichever she likes. This will also give you the advantage of appearing to give her "what she wants" and negotiating with her in good will.


~~CJ

Tuh RIGG ered.

Had a session with Jennifer, which went well. Good support and coaching. Some insights. So I'm feeling good.

I'm picking up the kids at day care, and DD3 says "OM does something funny with eggs." DS7 clarifies what DD3 is talking about. I seethe.

I manage to restrain from saying "Gee, I wonder why OM wasn't making hash browns at his house for his little girls."

Getting over it. Will post more about Jennifer later.

(((SD))),

Just thought I would send hugs your way.

Those are triggers that can't be stopped... truley out of the mouths of babes.

Still

Please let us know what Jennifer had to say when you have the time. I'm always interested in her insight.

Sorry about that HUGE trigger. I feel like I live in a world of mouse traps that I try to avoid all day long. The triggers are pretty strong right now, especially hearing my son's questions almost daily and his want to be with his dad. He was talking to me about packing his things to go see his daddy, and I had to tell him that this was not the weekend that his spends with his daddy. He was so unhappy about that.