I agree, but I want to know for sure whether or not that is the case.

sdguy,

I would treat any request the same, whether it's a holiday weekend or not. Live by the schedule. Your response was vague enough to just turn right back around without waiting for a response and let her know that you made plans. Dont' discuss them, no details, just "No, I made plans".

SD Guy - You can bet that she is not taking the kids out of town for the weekend by herself. The affairees never do anything like that. They insist on doing things TOGETHER, and love to drag the kids along.

I would just tell her you already have plans, and leave it at that.

Yep. You guys are right. My son just told me they had a sleepover at OM's apartment last night.

WW hasn't responded to my question about details of her proposed trip, so I told her that I'm going to keep my plans on the Sunday. She has been very accomodating with the kids so far--letting me have them whenever I have asked (grandparent visits, upcoming vacation), so if she had been planning to take them to her parents, say, I would have allowed it. Given the sleepover and lack of response, it's clear that it's an infidelitrip they were planning (as if there had really been any doubt).

Now I need to decide what else to do, if anything. I'm feeling the need to tell her how much I disapprove of her having the kids around OM. I haven't said it plainly yet. I'm also thinking again about sending an FYI email to the ILs.

I don't seem to be as triggered by the overnight as I would have thought.

I fell off my Plan B.

WW called me yesterday to ask why I wouldn't give up the Sunday, and I accepted the call. When I asked her what her plans were and who would be there, she was deliberately vague, so I told her I wouldn't give up the day. I told her that her bringing the kids around OM is wrong, both morally and developmentally. I told her what DS7 said to me about the overnight at OM's place ("I didn't want to go--they made me"). I invited her to consult any three child development specialists on the appropriateness of exposing the kids to her relationship with OM.

I told her that it doesn't have to be this way. I told her that what's best for the children is for the two of us to rebuild our marriage, and that there's no reason why we can't do that. I told her that we can be in love again and that it's what I want and what the kids want. I told her that we owed our children an honest attempt at rebuilding our marriage and that there hadn't been one because she never detached herself from OM.

I told her that I don't hate her (she assumed that I did), that I am over a lot of my anger about the affair, and that I can forgive her. I told her I was afraid she was digging herself into a hole that she doesn't know how to get out of; that yes, it would be a huge task to leave the road she has started down (probably the hardest thing she will ever do), but that I want to help and make the task easier rather than harder.

I told her that yes, we should make the attempt "for the sake of the kids," but no, I would not stay in a loveless marriage for the sake of the kids. I have learned enough about relationships and how to make them work--things I did not know before. I told her that I know that I will be happy whichever way it goes, but that my choice is that it be with her.

I told her that I know that our marriage can be great again, but that we both have to want it. And that it starts with her giving up OM.

I said all these things calmly and without anger. There were some LBs, because I spoke honestly about what her relationship with OM is doing to the kids. I spoke with some passion about our relationship--I told her that it was Mother's Day and how much I missed being able to shop and do things for her. I'm sure she heard the emotion in my voice. She listened to what I had to say. The conversation must have been an hour and a half. She had numerous opportunities to cut me off. I asked her at a couple of points whether I was wasting my breath--that if all she was doing was wishing I would shut up, then I would feel like a moron, and she said that I shouldn't feel like a moron.

She mostly listened and didn't contradict what I said. She said that she misses the kids. She said she misses seeing me with the kids (but not that she misses me). She said she is doing what she needed to do, because she couldn't go on living like that. She said that she can't see coming home. She said she's not sure that I'm right. When I told her that DD3 is talking increasingly about missing Mommy and wishing that she lived here, WW responded that "and I get I want to go to Daddy's house." She said she doesn't think I can ever get past the affair. She said she would think about what I said.

She asked me to reconsider giving up the Sunday. I said that I would gladly give it up so long as OM didn't come along on the trip. When she was reluctant to agree to that, I asked her to reconsider what she was asking me to do--that I genuinely believe it is harmful to the children for you to take them on a trip with OM and that you are asking me to compromise my beliefs, because according to our agreement I can stop this. She didn't buy into this (I should trust her on what's harmful), but in the end she said that OM wouldn't come on the trip, so I agreed to give up the day. She may well go back on her word--it sounded like she just wanted me to agree, but I have done what I can.

I didn't set out to have this conversation, but I had been feeling the need to do it--both to let her know what I think about her exposing the kids to OM and to reach out and let her know that the door is still open. I think she assumed that it was closed and that I hate her.

I would really appreciate input, especially from veterans. I was beginning to feel lost in my Plan B--like there was no hope and that I should think about giving up. The conversation yesterday felt like an important thing to do, but I am trying to sink back into my Plan B and not attach any hope to it.

Apply 2x4s liberally. Sorry for the long post.

Resend the plan B email with a note that you shouldn't have talked to her and you will NOT give up your Sunday. Go back to being extremely dark.

If you ever do talk to her again, when she brings up the subject of never being able to forgive her, tell her that is just an excuse she uses to continue her affair and not work on the M. It should be obvious to her that you would forgive her for her A by your constant struggle to save the M. But that is a conversation for another day (not in plan B). It is good to have an answer thought out when you do discuss it (when she has agreed to your PBL conditions).

ah, sdguy. Not sure what to say here. We were talking about olive branches the other day on my thread. This may have been yours. She didn't shut you down, that's good. She didn't get snippy, that's good. She said she misses things about the family. That's good, too. She isn't going to say she misses YOU. Yet. She just can't right now, that would be admitting too much.

I, personally, think this was good. Even if it doesn't mean a darn thing to her, YOU needed to say some things. Now you KNOW you have said how harmful it is to the kids to have OM around them. And you KNOW she heard it.

Now you KNOW you let her see that the door is still cracked, when you had been wondering if she knew. Let her think on that for awhile. Go back to darkness.

Now let it go (as much as you can). You've put those gems out there for her to think about. Give her time to think and stew.

I LOVE that your daughter is telling WW that she wants to go to daddy's house. LOVE IT! That will work on WW. Maybe not immediately, but eventually.

Thanks, Jim and Fox.

I think I am going to be able to let it go and get back into dark Plan B.


When I told my brother this, he pointed out that what DD says is not parallel (she tells me that she wants Mommy to come home; she tells WW that she wants to go to Daddy's house--this indicates where home is for her).

So, I talked about falling off my plan B in the opening of the post, but I'm not really seeing the conversation necessarily as a mistake. I'm still interested in other opinions, though.

(waving) Hi sdguy! Expert here! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Okay...according to all the well-laid reasons of Plan B, the conversation you had with your WW was "wrong" because she got many, MANY, MANY of her EN's met in that one conversation! She now knows that she still has you as a "fall back" in case the A doesn't work out. She now knows that no matter what you say, you don't really mind being part of her harem. She now knows that if you say you respect yourself too much to be part of a threesome, that you don't really mean what you say. And she got what she wanted...which is a vacation with the children and her OM to ease her guilty conscience!!

You know as well as I do that she wants to take the kids on a vacation with OM to lend an aire of "acceptability" to having left daddy and getting a BF. She also wants to do something "fun" with the kids and OM sort of in an effort to buy their love and acceptance..."Dad, OM took us camping so he's FUN! We like him!" See what I mean?? And frankly, you are lying to yourself if you think you can believe the promise of an actively wayward spouse to not bring their OP along on the trip. You know FOR A FACT that what she's going to do is maybe not drive up together...have him already be there or come the next day...and then by technicality she has "honored her promise to you" or some malarkey like that.

So is this an expert 2x4? No. This is an expert warning you about what you are doing. You just set your Plan B back about a month AND you met your WW's and your own fix to be in touch with each other AND you are setting yourself up to "believe a delusion."

I know that in your heart, you desperately want her to end the A and come back to you and the children. I know that your heart ACHES to have your wife back! But the way to get that to happen is not to "pretend" that what is happening is not happening. The facts of this case are that your WW left her children and is now having to experience the consequences of her choice: she will not be able to spend fun vacations with them because of what SHE chose! That hurts, and she does not want to experience the consequences!! So she cried to sdguy about having to experience the consequences of her choice to leave her kids, and rather than giving her the opportunity to learn and grown and maybe realize more quickly that she DID NOT want to be without her kids...you took that away from her and in effect said: "It's okay, honey. I'll keep you from having to experience those painful consequences so that you'll never mature or grow."

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Not so good, huh??

Now, it's no big deal. You just need to think about what happened and choose to get right back up on that dark Plan B horse. You slipped off--now you get right back on. VIA YOUR INTERMEDIARY, politely inform WW that you have reconsidered and you are not willing to change your plans for that Sunday. The natural consequence of choosing to leave her family is that they will not be available for "fun family vacations" and that you are sorry that's her choice, but she has the option to change that choice any day that she wants the "fun family vacations" again.

Okay??? (((((sdguy))))) Sorry big guy. I know you wanted someone to tell you it was okay to talk to her.

The mama Killer Bee,



CJ

Well, ouch! I felt that from way up here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> CJ is probably right....but I still don't think you were ALL wrong, but I'm no expert, either.

It's what I'm looking for. Thanks, CJ. Bring it on.

BTW sdguy...here's a bandaide. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Awww...sd.

My heart melted at what you said to her....but then froze right up at what CJ said. All your heartfelt words falling on deaf ears. Is it possible that it can be like the seeds...was it Resilient who used to say that to me all the time? You've planted the seeds, now step back and watch them grow. Don't go digging around in the soil.

You can't un-do it--and maybe you NEEDED to do it for YOU--so just go nice and pitch black.

Does it help to hear that WW is a d*amn fool? Sigh.

Okay, so I'm trying not to be defensive, because I have nothing to be defensive about. It's my marriage. I say that because I'm going to post some more thoughts, and I don't anyone to think I'm offended or let it dissuade anyone else from posting their honest input (i.e., 2x4ing me).


You know, I think she was listening. At least partially listening, and I was more than a little surprised at that. I kept giving her the opportunity for her to Fogtalk me or shut me up, but she didn't.


I think the other seeds I planted died, so I planted some new ones. I saw no signs of Plan B working--she wasn't attempting to break it anymore. I think she was interpreting plan B as me hating her and never wanting to have anything to do with her again. I don't think she knew the possibility of coming home really existed.


But isn't that the point of what I'm doing? Waiting it out? Jennifer tells me always, always, always tell her that the door is still open. How would WW's actions change if she believed that coming home weren't an option?


I talked of conditions, the first of them being giving up OM, and that I will not accept her back under just any circumstances. I said if she wants to talk more like this (she won't), I would, but that until she gives up OM, I will not be your friend and I don't want to communicate with you.


I don't *think* I am. I have no illusions that this is going to really change anything. My reaction to this is no more than "hmm." At least, that's what I think. I don't think it gives me false hope; I think it shows me that there is *some* hope.

Regarding giving up the day, I really can't play too much hardball with this. When I commented that the agreement allowed me to prevent the kids from going on that vacation, she threatened to reopen the agreement. She could certainly do this, as well as the support agreement, and I would lose. Also, every time I have asked for the kids, she has agreed. I have a vacation planned in June that she agreed to, which she threatened to revoke. I don't think she would (I said "then you can tell the kids why you won't let them go, because I will tell them why I won't let them go on your trip"), but I really don't want to go to that place. In the end, I can't prevent her from bringing the OM around the kids. I got to make my point about her actions being harmful to the children, and I did as much as I can reasonably do to prevent the vacation. My conscience is clear. Will she keep her word? Unlikely, but if she doesn't it will be one more thing that she has to pile onto her guilty conscience.


I do think I needed to do it for me, or something like it. I was getting lost in my plan B--losing hope and determination. And she is such a passive person that I really believe she will never come back if I don't fire up the beacon in the lighthouse from time to time.

I think about the three functions of plan B (protecting my willingness to reconcile, protecting WW from LBing by me, and forcing the infidels to meet each other's ENs). I think the conversation yesterday helped me protect my willingness to reconcile, which I think is the most important function of Plan B. I probably didn't help the other two.

I don't think I'm going to do anything differently based on this. I'm going to go dark again.

Again, I'm trying not to be defensive. If there are flaws in my thinking, please wail away with the 2x4s. And CJ, I really appreciate what you said.

She just did attempt to break it and was successful. They usually try and break it alot at the beginning, go through a period where they don't attempt to break it, and then when they start second guessing their actions, they start trying to break it again (maybe that is why she was willing to listen to you instead of all the fog talk. Let her know that yesterday was the exception rather than the rule. GO DARKER!

This is a good point. I'd be interested in what others say about this.

For one, I'm glad that you can find something...anything...that makes it feel like a win to YOU. And if you can do that, then it is a win...and it should be left at that, because all the 2x4s in the world can't alter the fact that the conversation took place.

I know what you mean about losing hope and determination. I am exactly one month behind you, so I get that, and I could see why shining a little light might feel like the right thing for you to do.

So....you did something that you needed to do for you. You felt like she heard you. You re-planted the seeds (funny BTW). You are retreating into the pitch blackness.

It's not the end of the world. I believe that utlimately, one mis-step or another of this magnitude along the way will not make or break the chance for recovery. Your conversation might delay it, might hasten it--who knows. But in the end, it boils down to whether or not the WS is willing to do the hard, hard work of losing the W. Totally IMVHO...

Their choice. They know the right thing. You reminding her of what's "right" in a calm and reasoned way isn't going to send her over the deep end.

Onward, soldier...apply the camo liberally.

Well, this is an interesting thought. Where's the damn guidebook that says what the wayward is going to do when, anyway? Thanks for the perspective, Jim.

And thanks for the kind words, LS. I'm trying to get as many perspectives as I can. This may have done nothing more than appease my urge to DO SOMETHING, which was starting to make me twitchy. Back at the beginning of this odyssey and I first started with my IC, she asked me "Are you a patient person?" and I said "Uh-oh." I've gotten better, though.

[quoteWhere's the damn guidebook that says what the wayward is going to do when, anyway?[/quote]

I'm shopping it around to different publishers. I'm meeting with Simon & Schuster tomorrow. I'll give you a signed copy when it comes out.

I haven't read everything, guy smiley, but it some respects I do agree with CJ, in others, I know that my husband, inside that insidious wayward, heard me. He heard the things I was saying, but he had dug himself in pretty deep.

I'll read up and post more later, all I can say is never back down on a WW. You take the high, strong, ground. Go dark. If you do have the power to keep the kids away from the OM, then do it. If your daughter is saying things about wanting mommy home, it will only get stronger and worse against the A.

Think, "What would Rhett Butler say?" or any other strong male persona, y'know, like Chrisner...

sdguy,

I wanted to give you a reassurance. What you did by talking to your WW was definitely NOT the end of the world. Shoot, I doubt if it did very much damage. In a way, you showed her that you are capable of being civil...and that's a good thing!

When I gave you the mind 2x4, it was more in the way of looking back on something that is done and saying, "How could I do better next time?" What you done...you done. It's over and can't take it back. Furthermore, based on how deep into the fog your WW is, I doubt if it caused irreparable damage to your stand to recover your M. I just think that on the occasion (like as often as possible) WS's need to hear "no" so they can experience the consequences, grow out of their A, and hopefully return to their M and family! I also think that generally, staying in dark Plan B (not talking to the WS) is better than talking to the fog and being hurt. Finally, I think that when/if you ever DO speak to the WS--you do exactly what you did, which is point them to the M and their family.

Sooooo..it's done. Now you have DONE something...you planted some seeds. Now she knows for a fact that she could still come back. And now, part of your head and heart are at rest because you know that she knows.

Okay?? Don't take my gentle 2x4 too harshly. Just learn and do a bit better next time. Back into dark Plan B and being a man who stands for his marriage and family!!

The Mama Bee,



CJ