ask mom not to provide so many details....

Mom to sdguy: Can you keep the kids today?

sdguy: yes.

End of conversation.

This affair will end. Protect yourself - you are dying a death of a million little cuts...

Hey, sd.

I just got on to talk about my own triggers, which are oh so mild in comparison.

I am impressed that you had the sense of humor to come up with the alternate aneurysm victim. Oh, what sweet revenge that would be.

(this even though I've been trying so hard on this Sunday to not think vindictive or hateful thoughts....chalk one more up to ask forgiveness for)

Not to talk about you like you aren't here, BR, but I'm wondering about her comment, SD...do you think the affair will end? I know that Fox has this "feeling" that Babs will be history. And of course everyone says that affairs always end.

Personally, I go back and forth, believing that WH/RT are doomed, doomed, doomed (and in this lifetime)....and then thinking that they are 3%ers who will live (at least superficially) happy ever after. It's much more the latter, these days.

Why am I even thinking about it? I have to reprogram my brain. I did pretty well this weekend, without kids...tons of retail therapy. But I swear, they walk in the door and I have to do that "catch up" thing. Get back in synch with them.

And of course DS9 lets slip that the RT's came over to decorate cookies. And that they went out with BIL/SIL to dinner on Friday, and that MIL/FIL came over for dinner today. Meanwhile, I was here alone....and it is tempting to throw myself a little pity party.

Sorry...that was a huge TJ.

SCQ is pretty ballsy. I cannot possibly imagine calling my MIL to ask if she and my BH could watch our children so that I could go track down my POSOM.

From your perspective, with your kids involved, your marriage being made into a farce, and your feelings being completely disregarded, it is scary, sad, and hurtful. From the outside, it is so absurd that she would do such a thing that it's hardly believable.

I'm so sorry, sd.

Thanks, BR and Sis, as always.


We talked about this. I got into her a bit about trying to push me into being done, which she admittedly has been doing. She agreed to back off.

I also got into her about how could she be so nice to the SCQ and why didn't she hate her. This was my raw emotion talking--me wanting the SCQ to hurt and not be comfortable. I later conceded that it's a good thing that Mom is able to continue to be nice to the SCQ. I think that, all things considered, she's doing a great job supporting me in this.


Yeah, I already asked for forgiveness.


The SCQ only admitted why she needed the time when my mom asked her. Plus, we have a right of first refusal regarding babysitting. On the other hand, she didn't mention that, and I honestly think she called us because she has no one else.


I do think it will end. I don't know how soon, and I admit that I could be wrong. Like I said, I think the SCQ has no one else. I think that POSOM has become her whole life. I think that she's a person who doesn't have too much of a personality and takes on the personality of whomever she's with. I think she has completely aligned herself with POSOM, and this was complete before I ever found out about the affair.

So, the SCQ has completely dedicated herself to this, but a whole day goes by where no one can get hold of POSOM (apparently the aneurysm--thanks Sis--happened yesterday), including the SCQ. How can the SCQ not know where he is? What does this say about their relationship?

I think it's entirely possible he was with his wife, or some other woman. I'm pretty convinced that he is a scumbag and has been lying all along, but the SCQ has to figure that out on her own.

But she has so much invested in the affair now that it will take a lot to get her to wake up, and it's likely that it won't happen in time to save our marriage. And I'm not even sure that I want to.

I was mentally composing a post yesterday about how I'm absolutely ready to move on without the SCQ but that it's not fair that I'm stuck with her as the mother of my children. At what point will I no longer be willing to take her back? Does it matter? It's not what is today. Worry about it when it happens.

Sis, you're cleared to TJ over here any time you want.


I have been a die-hard fan of the Chicago Cubs National League baseball team for 30 years now. I am invulnerable.

SD,

OMG! SCQ has some mighty big balls! Good job not reacting to it. IF any of what she said was true,,,,that no one knew where POSOM was,,,affairland is not the happy place it once was.

The BEST thing you did was not participate in the DRAMA. They need that to keep the A going, and it sounds like they are doing just fine in the Drama dept on their own.

Good job!! I know it was painful for you, and BR is right, you don't need the details as they do hurt. It's hard for folks IRL to understand that.

Cubs fan? Oh sweetheart! God Love ya!

From a LifeLong Cardinals fan!!

She's worried he's boffing some other woman! Don't we all remember those feelings when our spouses didn't come home until waaaaay after they were expected. Hmmmm, could he/she be having an affair? NO, COULDN'T BE!!!

You handled that pretty well, but this was in NO WAY an emergency, guy. No one should be answering that phone, even your mother. If SCQ is able bodied and the kids are okay, then that's the extent of your involvement.

Cubs fan or no, those cuts still make you bleed.

What is it that they say about pride going before a fall?

You may be able to white knuckle through Plan B. Stuff those emotions...

And then exlode and melt down at some time when you least expect it, and of course when it will do the maximum damage to your life.

And what if....she comes home?

Recovery is so hard - so so much harder than Plan A or Plan B. And these little things - each of these incidents become obstacles in recovery.

POSOM has just had a real close up look at reality. I would not be surprised to find out that the cracks in their relationship are becoming giant gaping holes.

I've been through the devastation of unexpectedly losing someone I love.

Hold your plan B. She's about to feel some consequences - especially when OM is incapable of meeting her needs...

Yeah, yeah, I was making light of the situation. I know that it's death of a thousand cuts. I know I'm better off not knowing.

But believe me, I let the emotions out yesterday. I raged, said terrible things about her, jumped on my mom a bit for not feeling the same way about her, and then I got collected and went about my day.

The other thing that happened yesterday is it made me want to contact OMW and get an update. Stir the pot if there's anything to stir. It stirred up my hopes, if only briefly.

But the SCQ has to be the one to figure it out. I have to resist the temptations to reach out right now.

BR said on LilSis's thread


This is one that has begun plaguing me. How could I get this far into my life without realizing who I married? What kind of life have I doomed my children to?

These are probably really unhealthy thoughts, so I generally try to avoid them, but your comment jumped out at me.

Hey, Guy. Not much to add....looks like you are pretty well covered.

I'm grateful that WH is giving me the silent treatment right now - then I don't have to make the decision on how to respond to him.

He's an unhappy man - and this is reflected in how he treats everyone around him. I doubt Bab's is an exception. That's all I need to know.



I wish I could convey to everyone how I got to this place. It's not just a feeling - I am absolutely convinced that they will not last.

At first, I thought in order for WH to do what he had done, Bab's had to be so much better than me and that I was such a failure and my M was not what I thought it was.

Months later, I was slowly working my way up. I read Harley's books, I read/posted/argued on this forum, I gathered all the outside sources I could gather. I watched stories unfold here, I watched WH behavior in his interactions with me, with his daughters, wish his mother, with his friends.

I got a feel for WHO Bab's was in HER marriage - how she treated those around her - husband, sisters, co-workers, son, etc.

It takes me a while to be convinced and to buy into things. But when I do, WHAM!, I've bought it.

I love to research - and to deal in facts.

Yes, it is about control - the more I know the more protected I am from the unknown. Because there is less that I don't know - KWIM?

Somehow - I've reached this place of complete peace in believing without a doubt that WH and Bab's will not last.

What does that mean for my M? Maybe nothing.....but maybe something. A M cannot survive with an active A. First order of business? An arsenal against the A. Destroy the A.

Then move on to the next order of business.

My D may be necessary for the destruction of the A. That's alright - we're both still living. A D is not the end of the world.

It could definately make recovery more difficult. WH is not going to know what hit him - it will be balls to the wall. If this is what he has decided he wants - then that is what he is going to get. But it will not be painless for him - I will take no prisoners.

I really wish I could help you guys get to that place of utter belief in the demise of the A.

You're still working through that anger at the injustice of it all. That's okay. Keep working.

I think I got to rambling there - sorry for the TJ. Hope something in there helped.

I'm convinced - find what you need to find to become convinced, too.

Fox

(Happy belated Thanksgiving to all!)

Words of wisdom from Her Foxiness!


It's a bit of both. The SCQ is very dependent. She always has been, and I think my losing the energy to feed it contributed to the rift in our marriage.

I'm pretty sure what has happened is that she has transferred this dependency to someone else. It will be just as unhealthy for that relationship as it was for ours, except that she has picked a lowlife scumbag to be dependent upon. Or rather, a lowlife scumbag lured her (intentional or not) into being dependent upon him.

She is so dependent and has her own feelings and needs and desires suppressed so deeply that I don't think she will ever wake up on her own and say "This isn't what I want--this is all a big mistake." It will take something from the POSOM. I suspect she will just keep doing whatever POSOM wants unless he really screws up or decides to go back to his wife.

Will it ever be a wholesome, fulfilling relationship? No. Will it end? I'm pretty sure it will.

That's not to say I wouldn't welcome someone saying "Oh, we've seen this exact situation before, and it played out exactly this way." I kinda think I'm in uncharted territory--I haven't seen examples of WWs coming back after long-term Plan Bs.

Oh, I've seen this exact situation before, and it played out exactly this way.

Does that help? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Seriously, though, believer's story helped reinforce my current belief that the affair will end. Her H returned 4 1/2 years later.....after acting during that time as though believer didn't exist. (hope I'm remembering correctly).

Some of them are deeper than the others....it still happens, it just takes longer.



Saying "I'm pretty sure" is like saying "I'll try". Don't go half way - BUY it. What'll it take to get you to BUY it?

Remember....you ain't special and neither is SCQ. Neither of you is any worse or any better than the rest of us. (meant in the kindest way)

Fox

SOMEONE has to be first.

Fox

Hmm. Do I have to buy it to keep doing what I'm doing?

I think that pretty sure for me = 95% confidence level. I'm 95% confident that the affair will end, but there's no telling when. If it's 5 years from now, how much good does that do me?

You are good, Fox!

I lack that confidence. And I hear what sd is saying...that the affairees are so dependent upon one another, so enmeshed in each other's lives, that even if it ends emotionally (i.e.; they lose that lovin' feeling), that doesn't necessarily equate to an end to the relationship.

sd, in terms of what "mistake" you made and how you've "doomed" your kids....

Was SCQ an evil, selfish, vindictive, cruel, hurtful woman when you married her? I'm thinking no. Did she love you? I'm thinking yes.

The truth is, there was something broken way down deep. Somewhere that SHE couldn't (didn't want to?) see, let alone you. She probably did a fabulous job of hiding it, from herself and from you. Especially you.

When little hints of it began to show, you probably didn't see it for what it was, because it was so out of context. You saw the little cracks as minor crazing--you know like on pottery?--when in reality they were fractures, going all the way through.

And you love her. So you overlook the little cracks. You don't have any idea that they are fractures. And she was doing everything she could to make you believe that they were just little cracks.

So were you supposed to be a mind reader? Is that what you expect from yourself?

She deceived you. She took advantage of your love for her. Plain and simple. For goodness' sake, don't beat yourself up for not recognizing who you married. You didn't marry the person who was fractured and broken...she didn't LET you get to know that person.

The sad part is, you probably would have loved her all the more.

You're right, of course, Sis. Revisionist history, hindsight--I did the best I could. We were completely in love and had a good marriage for a long time. It could have been better, but whose couldn't?

And she doesn't have a clue how broken she really is.

And yes, I would have tried to help her. ******, I'm still trying to help her.

Wow... Sis, Guy.. I'm right there with you both.

Sis, that has got to be one of the best descriptions of how I feel about my wife right now. It may seem a little thing, but -thank you- for posting that.. it gives me some perspective.

Guy.. brother, I can tell the holidays are getting to you. I'm there too. Been doing a lot of thinking about the M, about the person I thought I married. I think it's that level of caring, and knowing that the person we love is a very broken person, needing someone.

I'm wondering.. when you look back at how you met your wife Guy.. was it something of a rescue story? Circumstances in her life.. you were a way out? Seems to me that many of the BS's here are rescuers in some way shape or form.. perhaps that's why we stand so well for our marriages when others would (and probably should) just walk away. We're trying to keep the one we care about from making a bad decision.. to rescue them from themselves.

From a personal standpoint, going forward, if WW doesn't come around before I am 'done'.. I'm going to make sure the next woman I allow to partake of my life is someone who can swim on their own just as good or better than I can.

Nope, don't be a BUYER if you don't wanna be. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Seriously, though, getting to that spot helped my emotions tremendously. The "competition" that was going on in my heart between Bab's and I ended. As BR has been saying, she didn't win and neither did WH.

You don't have to buy it.....it could just be something that would help you settle in a little more.



Your children will no longer be exposed to that affair.

It isn't about just the recovery of your M, it's about recovery of YOU. (psssst - don't tell BR - but it would also help that in this instance, you would be RIGHT!)

I'm not counting on the WHEN either. Could be tomorrow could be 5 years from now - WH will at some point have to answer to himself about what he has done.

So will SCQ. She is human - even if she is weak.

Fox

Remember, boys, they aren't as weak as you may like to think. They were strong enough to leave you, weren't they? Why wouldn't they be strong enough to leave OM?

It may be just what is needed to shake them up enough to take a good long look at themselves.

They may have only PLAYED weak so they could carry less of the burden.

Keep in mind that I don't know your wives.....but it is something to think about.

Fox

Ah. . . I get it--it's about confidence that the affair will end for my own emotional well-being rather than will the affair end in time to save the marriage.

I think I've gotten a pretty firm grip on that one. Their whole relationship is built on a lie. Even if it doesn't fall apart (which it almost certainly will), it will never be as good as what we had before and wouldn't approach what we could have in the future. They are both losers regardless.

And just for the sake of argument, let's say that they are able to make the relationship last and convince themselves that they are happy. Given their conduct and how the relationship was born, if the SCQ can actually do that (be happy), then she will have convinced me that she's not the kind of person I want in my life, anyway.

They *can't* win. I'm not competing with POSOM. I know he is scum.