So...how did this happen? Flashback to day 1 of my cruise. I've been on the ship for maybe an hour when my cell phone rings, and it's my lawyer. He tells me that a motion has been filed to re-evaluate the weekend custody of our children, to complete an independent appraisal of the house, and for me to pay attorney fees. My lawyer tells me the Family Court Services mediation session is scheduled for January 8.

Nice timing. Now I'm triggered when I'm supposed to be relaxing. I tried to just put it away, but it still festered at me some. Because I told him, no, I couldn't receive a fax, my lawyer mailed the documents to me.

I got home but didn't open the documents because I didn't want to ruin my mood. I brought the documents with me on my trip to my parents.

The whole time I'm wondering how to approach the mediation session and FTF contact with the SCQ. Is it time to make a play to penetrate the Fog? Or has the SCQ brought the POSOM with her (and my kids) to her parents for the holidays, in which case maybe I should just chuck the whole thing. And the whole time, I'm not talking to anyone about this or even posting about it.

Flash forward a few days. The SCQ didn't bring the POSOM with her. I finally open the documents. She's asking for *every* weekend to be complete. And her justifications in the motion contain misrepresentations of events (*gasp*). So now I'm *really* triggered and still don't know how to approach the mediation session.

If only I could look inside the SCQ's head and see what's going on. The IL's know my position and what I want. I think it's what they want, but they won't really come out and say it. They have just spent time with her.

Is the SCQ telling her parents the truth? Do they know about her life with the OM, or is she still concealing things from them and spewing Fog?

In the past, the ILs have indicated to me that it's up to the two of us to work it out, concerned because we're not talking. The SCQ is very passive. Maybe she told them "how can we work it out when SDGuy won't even talk to me?" That would affect how I approach the mediation session, right? What if? What if? What if?

Off goes the email.

BR pounded me hardest for asking advice from the enemy. I have claimed information gathering (which is also not okay, for the record) rather than seeking advice. I think I phrased my message to them in terms of asking advice in order to elicit a response and get as much information from them as possible. I don't know whether or not this makes it any less jaw-droppingly dumb.

Sigh. If only. What if.

Attention Plan B Rookies: this was a trigger. I didn't recognize it. Didn't talk about it. Didn't post about it. When it got too intense, I reacted. It seemed like a reasonable idea at the time, but you see the responses from my amigos (thanks, guys. You probably saved SL a whole bunch of typing). The response from my ILs was entirely predictable, and yes, it hurt. Duh.

For those of you with copies of The Language of Letting Go, BR sent me Nov 30. Stop chasing the gerbil.

I just wanted to stop by and THWACK you about the head. You know better, mister. POST HERE FIRST. Don't make me reach through this screen and give you what for! (Not even anterior cervical discectomy with fusion can keep me from this one, HA HA HA).

Thank God for BR! Man, I miss her round these parts.

I'm gonna read Nov 30th. I do love that book.

It really does happen just as you described, too, creeping up, building, then you start to make excuses and justifications for contact, and you avoid posting here because you KNOW we're going to discourage you. Meanwhile, your hoping that something different will be said, and you'll regain some control.

Control is an illusion.

Take care, guy smiley.

Thanks, SL. I figured you'd want to get in on the 2x4 action, too.

Of course, I do know better. It's so much easier to see it for someone else than it is yourself. I have posted to others on what they can expect from ILs. I have preached to always post here first. But when it's me. . . .

That was a really good post, Fox. And I got a good laugh out of the hockey announcer. So right.

Geez...get busy for a couple of days and looks what unfolds.

I agree with the message to newbies. Huge red flag for me was this:
--->klaxon sounding<------

If you are a regular poster who doesn't post about something significant, or if you are not talking to someone about it, something's cooking, and the result is not going to be good.

BTDT.

I was in the middle of composing a yeahbuttal to BrambleRose about how I'm further along than she gives me credit for when something happened, so I abbreviated the yeahbuttal and then put the new stuff at the end. Apologies for the length.

>> You are still being RIGHT.

I am still being RIGHT. I AM right. I recognize, however, that this and five bucks will buy me a cup of coffee and that ultimately the resentment that will come from dwelling on it will hurt me. At the moment, I am not being right at anyone or letting it ruin my day or the like.

>> But what you are doing is not living. You are going through motions that are not fooling anyone.

I am living the best that I can under the circumstances. For a year now, I have been a single dad. I am married but have no wife. Jennifer talked to me about just trying to survive this period of insanity in my life. I think I'm doing better at this than you think. Maybe because I speak up more when things are not great and don't revel in the good stuff enough.

>> Holding back with whiteknuckles is NOT anything more than a thinly disguised entitled taker trying to get lose.

This is an exaggeration. I'm nothing like the quivering smoker trying to quit feverishly while eyeing the crumpled pack of cigarettes on the counter. I think about it from time to time, moreso when I am feeling bad and subconsciously looking for a way to make myself feel better. I recognize that I am vulnerable. I acknowledged it to you (maybe so that you could know that you are RIGHT). Nothing more than that.

>> Because if you could just find the RIGHT words to convince her, she'd see your rightness and come home. My sponsor called this Looking for the loophole.

Maybe, but I don't think so. I gave up trying to convince her a long, long time ago. Only she can pull her head out of her [censored]. Believe me, I learned this lesson the hard way. If the RIGHT words existed, I'm sure I would have said them. I said everything else. When I was still talking to her, I told her it was not about who is right and who is wrong, it's about what's best for us and our family.

I know that I'm right and that it doesn't matter.

>> Because if you could just find the RIGHT words to convince them, they'd see your rightness and force their daughter to halt this stupidity.

I know that they don't have this power. It would be nice to know that they have done what they could, though.

So, I said that something happened. I got a call today from the OMW, and I took it. We talked for an hour and a half. The highlights:

her divorce is no further along than mine (i.e., not being pushed)

once again, she did not sound crazy, or unstable (as she had been described)

she told me BW horror stories (he has called the police on her for stuff he basically instigated, potentially to build his case to get 50% custody, which he now has and never would have gotten otherwise)

she believes he is an alcoholic, that for a while he was drinking 1-2 bottles of wine per night, getting falling down drunk, wetting himself

she told me he is very controlling, that he never liked her independence (this fits with my belief that he is the instigator and the SCQ is the follower)

from what she told me, he is totally cake-eating. Every time I have talked to her, she makes noises about having had it, that she can't take it anymore and is going to move on. Then she apparently backslides and lets him back in. She tells me they had a long conversation Christmas Eve about their relationship (she did most of the talking, but he told her the next day that he wanted to continue it). That they had lunch together within the last week, talking about the kids. That a couple of weeks ago, when he was sick, he called her and asked her to bring him some soup, which she did.

that his mother controls him and always has. She believes the SCQ taking me to court about weekend custody is because without full weekends, the SCQ isn't free to go to his mother's weekend getaways, and his mother gets what she wants.

she reiterated that he hates the idea of the two of us talking

I told her that this is all typical wayward spouse stuff, all going by the script. That her husband is a garden-variety wayward husband--that he will cake-eat for as long as you let them, will lie on both sides (I'm all but positive that he's lying to the SCQ as well), and ultimately probably won't leave his family.

I told her that there is nothing I can do. That the SCQ is almost certainly the follower and totally under his spell. Nothing I do will have an effect.

I told her that I didn't think she was powerless. We have talked about MB before, and I have encouraged her to do a Plan B. I reiterated this--that I think a good plan B would do wonders for her, that she could schedule an appointment with the Harleys, that she could check out the website, that I would help her if she wanted it. I have told her this before several times, so I didn't really push it. I can't control her, nor should I try.

I also wondered aloud whether the SCQ knew how much contact he's (OM) is having with her (OMW). What would happen if the SCQ knew about the chicken soup thing? There must be a dozen more things like that he's concealed from Kim. Maybe she should tell the SCQ. I certainly can't.

She said she had to do something, because she was tired of going crazy. Maybe she will. It's possible, I suppose, that she's looney and fabricating what she told me. I *am* too trusting a person. Still, she didn't sound nuts. There was plausible detail behind what she said, and really, nothing she has done is out of character for a betrayed spouse. We have every reason to act a little nuts.

So. I learned some things. Got some things confirmed. It is standard romantic affair stuff and will almost certainly end the way they all do.

I guess that wasn't enough of a confirmation, though, because I got on the phone and called my FIL. The email from him was really quite compassionate, so I thought I would probe for more info.

I thanked him for the note, apologized for putting him in such an awkward position, and asked if we could chat for a minute. I awkwardly explained to him that I was trying to get a look inside the SCQ's head. That if I believed she was making sound decisions rather than just letting the affair do the thinking (using different words), I would give up.

He was very open with me. They know that she is making a mistake. They did what they could to try to talk her out of it but said it was like talking to a wall. He told me the things she listed as our "differences," which are completely revisionist history. He said he didn't hear anything that aren't problems just like every marriage has. He owned a lot of her behavior--that she gets her stubbornness and passivity from him. He said she was very cagey when he asked how her relationship with OM began. He acknowledged that the way they are trying to put a family together won't work--that it's not like two divorced people coming together well after marriages are over. He said DS8 and OM's DD4 don't get along.

I told him what I learned about the OM--that he is almost certainly lying to the SCQ. I told him what OMW told me.

They get it and have done what they can. He said to call any time. He said that whatever happens, they both love me like a son.

So. I learned some more things.

I'm triggered, of course, but I feel pretty good. I think I can and will keep doing what I'm doing for a while longer. I'm also setting up a session with Jennifer asap to discuss strategy. I have to go face-to-face with the SCQ in a couple of weeks.

Yes, I lunged at the gerbil. If the gerbil doesn't know that I lunged at it, does it still count?

SD,

Ok, you got some intel from OM's BW. Is it true? Is it not? Does any of it matter??

Then, you talked to FIL. Sounds like you got the 'validation' you were wanting to get from them. How does it feel?

Does it HELP you in any way?

or

Does all of this drag you back down the WW Crazy Path of Thinking too much about what you can't control, about what you WANT vs what IS, and is it driving you around and around in a circle?

Just curious.

By the way,,,,I'm not judging you here. Trust me, I stil find myself getting drawn into convos about Drac from time to time that are very much like what you've written here. I'm totally guilty of the same which is why I asked the questions I did.

I wanted to know things and at times, I still do. I will admit to "getting something" out of knowing things - - -but I really am not sure what it is exactly.

Then, later, I see myself having discussed Drac, thought about it over and over again, and it's like picturing myself on the NASCAR track going around and around in a circle and getting nowhere new.(I won't comment on the fans in the stands watching that fiasco happen! lol!)

So,,,,,,,,,,,,,you are not alone!

{{SDGuy}}

SD.. given that I have a similar, if not maybe even a little better relationship at the moment with my IL's I -completely- understand your motivations for probing and keeping open lines of communication with them.

I imagine that if you were honest with yourself, there is some motivation in the realization (or re-realization) that the A is a garden variety romantic A, and will end eventually as they all do.. and when it does, SCQ will likely turn to her family with the 'what to do's' and somewhere you're trying to plant seeds for the ultimate conversation envisioned in your head where FIL looks lovingly at his daughter and tells her what a man she STILL HAS in you..

I've had visions in my head of the same conversation.. I hope it works out for the both of us.

I wouldn't bet the farm on it though. In my experience, continued contact with the IL's results at least temporarily in knee jerk reactions and venom from WW who resents the fact that her family still considers me a 'son' and allows her to live in the fantasy that I've poisoned them against her. Your mileage may vary. So far WW hasn't grasped the 'intended' concept that everyone who actually knows her and cares about her doesn't want to see her do this with her life..

Ultimately though, it is HER life to do with what she pleases. We're both in a place where we have to simply allow the consequences of a life not-so-well lived fall on the heads of our WW's. They're going to have to hit bottom before the turnaround we -need- in order to contemplate R happens.

I'm behind you man, and will support you all the way.. I still have a relationship with my IL's and I understand the importance of that, but this isn't their fight... this isn't their choice.

I don't have a problem with a maintained relationship with the IL's, it's more about probing questions regarding their daughter that I have a problem with. They can't get inside her head, just as guy smiley can't get inside her head.

Every conversation you have about SCQ sets you back and drains your LB. You know this. Stop chasing the gerbil. IGNORE it.

Maybe we should start calling waywards, gerbils. It's much more fun a term.

Also, any intel that gets back to SCQ tells her that you are still sitting and waiting. Plan B should also be about showing the WS that you are done with the wayward, and ONLY have time for a spouse.

You've been at this a long time, guy, and I raise my hat to you. It seems the one last thing that you need to work on is LETTING GO. DETACH.

I didn't have as much time in Plan B, so I had to take on this task during recovery. I am just now really *getting* it.

Oh, and since you won't be chasing the gerbil, I do recommend looking down while you walk, to avoid the gerbil poo...

MY TURN!!!

Were you sick, running a fever???? Injected with something, smoking something we don't know about, attacked and saw your life flash before your eyes, almost had a near death experience...HAVE YOU BEEN HANGING AROUND ME? LOL pretty important question since I did what I did... LOL

Of course, if I asked my ILs that they would tell me to drop the D and stuck it out for the sake of the kids! How sick is that?

That would be like it's okay to be miserable for the rest of your life, while he cheats on you...doesn't met your needs, lies, sneaks around...I think they are actually sicker than HE IS!!

:deep breathe: Oh, SD...I know that there are times when we just feel that we have to know...as if we don't have enough drama in your lives we have to create more when things get quiet...

:shruggin: I got some validation, I learned some things that i needed to learn from the sitch...perhaps the stuff I needed NOT to dwell on a future with STBX...dwell on his stuff...wonder what's going on WITH HIM...

I don't know man! I really don't know! I'm certainly not judging you because I don't have that right...but I'm in there with you...

How's your focus doing with returning to you? How are YOU caring for yourself RIGHT NOW?

Huge ((((SD)))))!!!!

It will be okay! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Here’s what I think, filtered through my lens of how I think and feel. (I don’t have time to write much, but I thought I’d throw this out there.)

I suspect that you are fishing for intel because you are hoping to hear something that will get things moving for you…one way or another. “Maybe if I find out that SCQ and OM are happy as clams, then I will be DONE.” “Maybe if I find out there’s trouble in paradise, then I will know to keep hanging on.” If you KNOW what's going to happen in the future, or what's going on with the gerbils...then you'll know what frame of mind to be in TODAY.

BUT...what's going on with the gerbils shouldn't be driving your frame of mind, your thoughts, your behaviors TODAY. That's not respectful of yourself. You--and your desire to be a man of the highest integrity--should be driving your behaviors, actions, and thoughts. Not some potential outcome of a sordid affair relationship.

Leave them out of the equation. (Easy for me to say!!)
Be your very best self TODAY.
Live for YOU today.

I wonder: Are you looking for closure? Are you trying to DO something to obtain said closure? Are you trying to force it, just because you don't like where you are now?

IMO, closure is not something that you can DO anything about. As BR said to me, you’ll carry around this baggage until you are done with it. You will carry around these feelings for SCQ until you no longer need them. BR: “You can’t force this.” When you are done, you won’t need the bags anymore, and you will know it. You be able to comfortably put the bags down and peacefully walk away, without longing, worried, hopeful backward glances.

(Tangent here: I also think that we have to resist the temptation to ask another (opposite sex) person to carry our bags for us. It’s important to carry your own bags. It makes us stronger. It makes us more confident.)

I don’t have my book with me, otherwise I’d give you a day.

The urgency about being DONE; trying so hard to get yourself out of this uncomfortable place you are in…it’s just going to work in its own time…not yours. Also paraphrasing BR: Uncomfortable=growth. Comfortable=complacency. Use the discomfort to motivate you to keep growing. But you can’t PUSH past it or skip over it. You have to go right through it. The discomfort is OKAY. You may not like it, but it’s a good thing.

TRUST that someday soon, you will be able to put down the bags, and peacefully walk away. THAT is what you should be striving for, because either way—REGARDLESS of anything done or said by SCQ/OM/OMW/ILs—you NEED to be able to do that.

I’m trying to write this quickly, so if it doesn’t make sense, I apologize.

PS: I realize that saying all this does not give you any guidance about HOW exactly to do this, but maybe it gives you a way to think about it.

Wow, Sis! Just WOW!

Agreed, SL.


You totally nailed it, Sis. I think that's exactly what I'm doing, all precipitated by the upcoming mediation session.

BR is probably apoplectic right now. I can just picture her shaking her head having read what I sent her. I'm not letting go. I'm not detached. If I had really let go, I would have already been done. I think that knowing what I know is the only thing keeping me in this.

When I talk with Jennifer, Plan B is about recovering your marriage, not personal recovery. In my opinion, that part is a positive side effect.

What I learned really doesn't change what I'm going to do. It makes it easier to do what I wanted to do anyway. I have been living well with a good life with my children and friends and family, and I'm going to keep doing that.

I disagree. Letting go is not the same as being Done, IMO. You can let go of the drama, the anxiety, the need to KNOW...and still not be Done.

Maybe it's the definition of "Done." To me, Done is setting down the bags and walking peacefully away. You disengage from the drama, anxiety, and need to KNOW while still carrying around the bags.

You can have feelings for SCQ, but not indulge those feelings.

I'm not articulating this very well, unfortunately.

This is one of those things that is almost like a chicken/egg thing.

If you don't mind a TJ, could I throw something out there that's been on my mind lately? (Not in relation to your situation, but in general)

I think there are people here who see Plan B as if it were a way to bully or threaten or scare the WS into coming back. This is a mistake.

This is how I felt about Plan B in the beginning. It was NOT healthy. That is controlling and manipulative. It certainly didn't do my personal recovery any favors. I was still spinning around the universe of WH, only the lights were turned off.

Plan B is a general recovery program, IMO. Plan B won't recover the marriage in every case; we know this. So if the marriage doesn't recover, does that make the Plan Ber a failure? I don't feel like a failure.

I think that marital recovery after the trauma of an affair--even more so when the WS lingered on with the OP after d-day--REQUIRES personal recovery.

I can't imagine going back into a marriage (or any relationship for that matter) without having learned to trust oneself, to love oneself, to create healthy boundaries, to break habits that lead us to attempt to control, question, and doubt.

In order to learn those lessons, the BS needs the protection of a nice, dark, Plan B.

SL mentioned something lately about doing both at the same time...how tough that is.

So marital recovery...personal recovery. You can't have the former without the latter, IMO. Referring to Plan B as if it's simply a strategy to recover a marriage is far too simplistic.

Rant over.

******

I know you are, sd, and I'm so delighted to hear about your fun adventures and trips. You'll carve everything out in its own time and in your own way. I don't think anyone can tell you what to do or how to do it. All anyone else can do is shine a light on your path, and maybe reveal a bump in the road that you can avoid.

No, you are. It's great stuff, Sis. I'm probably not articulating well, though.

Maybe I should have said if I had let go any more I would be done. I've gotten much better at resisting the drama. There have been a few notable exceptions (the dreaded Chrismtas ornaments), but prior to that one I think it had been a drama-free couple of months. Mostly drama-free, anyway.

Or maybe instead of done, I should have said done with this waiting period that is Plan B and moved to Plan D, which is not necessarily the same as being Done.

BR hammers me for not letting go. I don't know how to let go any more than I already have without Getting On With My Life.


Yeah, again, I have too many thoughts crashing around my head and don't spend enough time trying to make them coherent. Obviously, there are personal recovery components to Plan B. Sometimes, for me personally, at least, the personal recovery piece comes at odds with the marital recovery piece, and I have been opting for the marital recovery pathway. If personal recovery were my primary goal, I wouldn't be doing it this way.

I wanted to KNOW. I'm a scientist. I want the data before I make decisions. The mediation feels like a decision point to me. On the other hand, I like to be RIGHT, so I may have been indulging that need as well--making sure that I am right.

I don't know. Like I said, the thoughts are still banging around, and I'm still processing. Thanks, everyone, for listening and offering your thoughts. Bugs and James, I'm still thinking about what you guys said.

So, a good weekend. Scheduled a play date for DS8 at our house (one of the first) for Saturday, which the kids (including DD4) enjoyed. Sunday we watched the Lightning Bolts win their second straight playoff game at the neighbors (made cinnamon rolls again . . . mmm). Then some shopping, a walk at the beach, and a quiet evening at home.

No residual psychological trauma from The Information. No obsessing. Feeling pretty calm, really.

I'm glad to know what I know. It was mildly triggering, but I also improved my relations with my ILs (I didn't really know how things stood, but now I do, and I am satisfied).

I'll be the first to agree, it is -very- comforting to know that the IL's understand your position, and encouraging when they support you. I think what probably makes things hardest, at least for me is that WW either just doesn't see, or just doesn't care that -everyone- who truly knows and cares about her wants her to turn back from this path she has chosen.

Knowing where you stand with them, and it seems to be you're in a pretty good place is good. Like I said before, I know for me there's a component of hope there that knowing she will eventually restore a relationship with her family after the A is done, that they will relate to her at least a little of what they watched me go through, and knowing that through it all I continued to love her and -be- her husband... that it will make a difference. I still hope it will.. not going to count on it though.

Don't have much advice to give Guy.. but I can empathise with where you're at. Take what comfort you can from it, but then get on with the business of taking care of you and the kids. I know you will.. I know that you're way ahead of me in this, and seeing the bumps in the road ahead of time doesn't always make them easier to take, but at least you're ready for them.

GuySmiley,,,,

Where are you,,,, HOW are you?

Isn't the mediation this week,,Thursday? Just checking in to see if we can help.

Thinking of you, my friend!

Thanks for asking, Bugs. Good timing. I got this email today from the SCQ:

I haven't decided how to respond yet. I think I will wind up negotiating with her via email, but I have an appointment scheduled with Jennifer to figure out how best to respond to this and the other stuff I found out.

So, I think I'm doing pretty well. I feel good most of the time. I had a great session with my IC yesterday, and she agrees that I am doing well. The stuff I learned makes me feel better about what I'm doing (i.e., Plan B) and gives me resolve to keep going a while longer (so long as it's what Jennifer recommends).

It's interesting, though. I was at a business dinner tonight with a bunch of people I didn't know. I was able to be light and engaging and funny. I wound up sitting next to the HR person, and we chatted about stuff, and I wound up telling her about my situation (I had already told her I evacuated from the fires with only my cat and later told her I have kids and then felt the need to clarify).

She wound up telling me about her divorce. Fifteen years of marriage, one daughter, aged 11. Bang--she gets the "It's not working, I want a divorce" speech, including ILYBINILWY bit. As I probed, it's clear to me that infidelity was at the root of it, but she didn't know that at the time and wound up getting divorced. He didn't want to try MC, talking to him was like talking to a brick wall--the whole script. Now she's over it and happy with her life and looking back on how things maybe weren't all that great. She is Done. The whole thing started for her in the middle of 2006. D-Day for me was at the end of 2005.

I'm not sure why I posted that, other than that it's fresh in my mind. I don't regret what I've done so far and don't imagine that I ever will.

Thanks again for asking, Bugs. And James, you're getting pretty good at giving advice around here.

I dunno about how good I'm getting with the advice thing bro. I'm just one of the blind guys holding hands with the next blind guy trying to figure out which one of us is leading this crazy conga line.

I'm glad though if anything I'm saying or doing is helping you. I've tried very hard to take a little quip I saw on a church sign to heart: Your life is a sermon, what kind of sermon are you giving?

I do know this though.. You're probably one of the strongest individuals I know having hung in there like you have, still loving your family and wanting your M for the right reasons. I doubt we'll ever know how many people your perseverance has inspired. You're giving a good sermon brother.


To me, this is the key. This is the best sign of healing IMO that you can look yourself in the mirror in the morning and -know- that you gave yesterday everything you had, and that you'll do the same for today.

No sudden movements when the gerbil is looking at you.

What have you decided?

Isn't today a mediation day?