I agree, Lexxxy. There are more signs to leave than there is to stay. L2S only has a case of "Cold Feet". Abuse is the HUGEST sign for divorce. Physical/Mental/Emotional/Verbal ABUSE! That's 4 signs, right there.

unfortunately L2S really listens to Techie because he feeds right into her insecurities. He doesn't care if she gets beaten to death.

Here are Dr. Harley's views:

Domestic violence is not as common as people think. Most of the troubled couples I've counseled have never experienced domestic violence and most couples, in general, go through life without having had a single physical altercation. If your spouse has ever hit you, or if you have ever hit your spouse, you're in a tragic and dangerous minority. But as uncommon as the problem is, whenever it occurs, people are shocked and confused as to what to do about it. My perspective as a professional who has counseled hundreds of violent clients is that these couple should be separated until there is assurance of safety. In many cases that assurance can never be given.

If you have ever hit your spouse, you are a perpetrator of domestic violence and need to take extraordinary steps to protect your spouse from yourself. Most violent spouses are deeply remorseful after sending their husbands or wives to the hospital, and sometimes to their death. But remorse does not make up for the mistake. Violence is one of those mistakes in life that you cannot ever afford to make, and if you've done it once, you're likely to do it again.

Throughout my career as a marriage counselor, I have done whatever I can to save marriages, but when it comes to domestic violence I draw the line. Unless a spouse can guarantee the other's safety from their own anger, I don't believe they should live with each other.



enough said. Techie, please stop encouraging this woman to return to an abuser.

And L2S; I am so sorry for about your mother.

Techie - what you have just done is also called "religious abuse". If it weren't for your own story here, I'd almost think you were her husband using yet another manipulation to confuse. Now even resorting to speaking for God... Grrrrr. Can I just say, PSTD - you just stepped on a land-mine-sized trigger - say, used by the OW formerly in my life????? Grrrrr. some more. Grrrrr.


Deep breaths....

Ok - I know this about God - there is opposition in all things. We are here to be tested and tried. L2S's husband has worked hard to separate her from God - beating her, accusing her of cheating at church... that's opposition to the joy and happiness that God would have us receive from Him.

God doesn't want us to stay and demonstrate to our children that we should suffer at the hands of those who profess to "love" us.

Please can we stop turning "opposition in all things" into "signs" for inaction...

Techie - what experience do you have in domestic violence and mental illness of this nature that you keep pounding this drum?

L2S, you don't have to take on everything at once - just keep breathing, and handle one thing at a time. Prayers that your mom will experience a speedy healing and breathing easier soon.

I'm looking forward to your follow up post.

I have already said, MULTIPLE times now, that she should take steps to protect herself from the abuse.

divorcing him is not the only way to do this.

[/quote]
God doesn't want us to stay and demonstrate to our children that we should suffer at the hands of those who profess to "love" us. [/quote]

actually, there are multiple counter-examples to this in the bible. not in ALL cases. but that's irrelevant.
I am NOT SUGGESTING SHE "stay with" him. I am merely suggesting that it may be God's will that she not divorce him.

She is currently not "with" him. So you are again trying to argue "against me", when i am not holding the position you are arguing against.

Techie - you didn't answer my questions about your own personal investment here - and experience to say there are other ways... Care to enlighten. It might help me understand why you seem to be so invested in "anything but divorce" when in L2S's case, as long as he has a legal tie to her, he's going to abuse her - mentally at the very least - and his situation merits the kind of precaution reserved for those abusive husbands (or wives) who have the capacity to murder their escaping spouse...

Frankly, I'm more worried about L2S and her mom. Hope there's an update soon.

Kayla, i'm a bit confused by your question about "[my] own personal investment". I didn't see such a question. I DID see your question about experience with abuse. I don't think I've ever claimed to have any experience with treatment of, or recovery from, physical abuse.
You may then choose to write off what I have to say in that area. But for bible believing Christians, personal medical experience is not the most important factor.

L2S has explicitly expressed an interest in trying to determine "what is the will of God in her marriage", and she is a bible-believing Christian. As another fellow Christian of similar cloth, I feel it is my duty to point out such knowledge of the bible in that area as I possess. If she had not expressed an interest in discussing such things, I would not be spending so much time in her thread.

If I were going around doing something in another area, that went against God's wishes, I would welcome someone else pointing it out to me, so long as they took care to point out the biblical backing for their viewpoint, (rather than just claiming their own "divine insight" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ) . I believe I have expressed the biblical backing for my viewpoint, when speaking to L2S's situation.

Some others may disagree with my biblical reading. That's their business. The more important thing is whether or not L2S does, and whether she chooses to continue to discuss it with me.

May God provide clear vision and wisdom to us both.

L2S - hoping you're ok.

Techie - be careful of the "letter of the law" approach to your biblical reading/advocacy - there's a fine line between love and obedience of the law - and the pharasaical adherence to the law.

When we box someone into a relationship with someone who hates God as much as L2S's husband does - who abuses her psychologically AT EVERY OPPORTUNITY - and we throw the "God Hates Divorce" line at them - we draw from them the very strength they need to cleave to God and separate themselves from evil in those dark times.

Since you have never been in that dark place with an abuser - let me tell you what it's like from the daughter's P.O.V. My mother was only 18 when she married my father - home from WWII - drinking to numb out the trauma of what he experienced there. He was the shy goodlooking guy - her dad saw him for what he was - wounded and capable of wounding - but once his daughter married this man - used the biblical lines you use to keep her from breaking up her family. (Dad had started hitting her and putting her down within 3 weeks after the wedding - when she tearfully asked him why and what had happened to her sweetheart, he told her "Married people don't act like that".

Techie - 30 years into that h*ll we call Marriage-to-an-abuser, I came home from a high school event to find my mother doing the laundry in the dark. When I turned on the light, I saw bruises from head to foot. She needed a hospital but refused to let me take her.

This is what her father's "letter of the law" did to my mother. My father, as brutal as he was, was not the psychotic person L2S is divorcing herself from. Her husband is truly capable of murder - though she doesn't see that yet; I do have sufficient experience to recognize it.

You cannot know the harm you do, just as my grandfather did not know the harm done, not only to his daughter, but to his grandchildren as well, because of his refusal to help his daughter when she turned to him for help. He sent her back to the abuser.

Eventually my father changed - Had my mother been able to leave in the early days of the marriage - or even when I was 17, I believe my dad may have changed sooner, and soon enough that the PSTD that my mother suffered at his hands could have allowed recovery of the sweet part of life that marriage was ordained of God to be - they will celebrate their 60th anniversary in a few months - celebrate? wrong word - honor it. But not the sweet celebration that two people who genuinely love each other should. I firmly believe that had Mom had Plan B or even Plan D, Dad would have come around as he eventually did. Can I even convey the lamentations in my heart for the pain they have suffered at each other's hands by not being able to draw the line at any bad behavior in the marriage?

Are you of the mindset to criticize Jesus for healing on the Sabbath, or gathering corn for his Sunday meal? What was the message in these passages being included in the Bible, if not to teach us and warn us that we use the Word in our lives as a living breathing guide to living our lives - not as a stick to beat each other into compliance with strict laws.

God is a personal God. He knows the torment that L2S has endured with her husband. Please let Him and Him only speak for Him to L2S and her situation.

Written from the still tender heart of a daughter, who wishes nothing more in the world than that her daddy knew her mother loves him - and her mommy to know that Dad loves her. They really do love each other, but they will never be able to really know that because of the harm that "staying" did to them.

Kayla... I fully understand how the words of the bible can be abused. The ultimate expression of that twistedness, would be "the inquisition". people tortured, in the name of a loving God.

I am sad to hear of your own mother's situation from that.
Yet even in her case... she could have stuck to the letter of the biblical law, and at the same time, not subjected herself to the abuse.
It would have been better if her father had sheltered her. I fully agree to that. I think you mentioning that, reinforces that even in her case, there were in theory, options other than divorce. It is regrettable that that particular option, was not made available to her.
In this day of women supporting themselves, L2S doesnt need her father to take care of her. She can do it herself, and is indeed doing so quite well, it sounds like.


As difficult as it is for us to understand and justify in this day and age... it is not right for "politically correct" people these days, to attempt to rewrite the bible to "bring it up to date" with PC ideas.

Around Jesus's time, beating one's wife, and treating them like slaves, was the *standard*. The bible was written in the context where this was the expectation, not the norm. Neither physical nor emotional nor "mental" abuse, were biblical grounds for divorce back then.
Last I checked, God didnt publish a "revised version" of the bible in the last 2000 years.

The bible encourages husbands NOT to treat their wives like that. But it does not allow for divorce, if they still treat them badly.


There are different types of 'law' groupings in the bible. There are the minor 'laws' which are merely kind of "this is a good way to behave" laws. If we occasionally break them, with good reason, there is no major issue with God there, as Jesus showed.
Using Jesus as the ultimate model, however, remember that He pointed out that "divorce", is not a law for us to follow. Marriage, is the law, and a major, not a minor one. Divorce, is merely an option, and not of God. It was of the people, and Moses. Given to the people, because they kept whining about it. Just as God did not intend the people to have a king.. but when they kept asking for one, they got Saul... God did not intend there to be divorce. Ever. Not in any circumstance[/b].

Jesus clearly says this.
"For your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so."
(and it's interesting that He said "moses allowed", not "God allowed" !!)

Your own family, underscores why God hates divorce.
Your father DID reform.
Yes, if your mother moved elsewhere, he may have reformed faster.

Yet to examine the flip side, if your mother had divorced him... she may have married again, and then he would have never reformed, and healed (at least to some degree) his marriage to her.

Yes, your mother underwent years and years of horrible, horrible suffering.
Sometimes, God does call us to that, for the greater good of all those that He loves.
Your mother will have a crown of glory in heaven someday, for what she underwent, in His name. I weep to hear her suffering, but I am glad that her example, has helped her husband, and now possibly another marriage as well. She is a very Godly woman.


I am only reminding her of His words. If she or others feel I am quoting too narrowly, then I encourage her to read them directly herself, in their full surrounding context, at a place and time when she has enough space to reflect at length upon all that they say.

All. Update........
My mom went home last Friday. Still some limited use of right arm and leg and some other issues left over from the pneumonia. Going to see her this afternoon after work.

I haven't signed the papers.

I went to house on Sat to work on tax paperwork for company; I'm 51% owner until all is done.

Sunday I went to work instead of church so I wouldn't have to hear his mouth or fear him showing up at church. Dropped my D at church and went to work. Met D and my family after church for lunch. Went home and stayed there until I took my D back to the church for a youth activity. Went back home. Went back to church at about 7:45pm to pick her up.

Told my H I was going to go see my mom but ended up not. Decided to wait until today b/c her brother always goes on Sunday and there are 2-3 church services. Today will be better to give her company today, too.

He thought I was talking to/seeing someone b/c I said I was going to see my mom but did not.

Today, he asked about signing the papers and said that I need to go ahead and that he will find someone to do the paperwork b/c as soon as they are signed he doesn't want me around b/c it would hurt too much.

Why am I stalling on signing? That's exactly what I'm doing. I am stalling. I believe the D is the only thing right to do. My family is 100% behind me. So are all of you (except Techie - and I understand your reasons).

Why can't I just do it? What am I waiting on, hoping for, stalling for?

Can anyone give me any guidance, assurance, words of encouragement? I'm so angry w/myself. My life has been on hold for years and I am at the brink .........

I've always wanted to sky dive, even if it's only once! It's like I'm up in the plane, standing in the opening. The sky is beautifully blue. The earth is beneath me and I see all the ponds and streams and hayfields and farms down below. This is something I've wanted and I believe it will be awesome but, I can't let go and jump.

Why can't I let go?

"right thing"?
ONLY right thing?

What are you basing your definition of "right" on? Based on what "feels right" to you?

If it is "to protect your family"... you could have all the protection that a divorce provides, though a legal separation, I believe. Restraining orders, yadda yadda, the whole nine yards.

The only thing extra a divorce gives, that I am aware of, is the legal freedom to go find another man to marry.

Someone please correct me if I missed something there.


If your choice to divorce is really because, "I want to find another man"... well okay then. You have the biblical 'legal' wherewithal to do so. Divorce your husband, and go look. But at least be honest about what you are doing.
In that case, you're not doing it "because it's the right thing to do". You're doing it because you want another husband for yourself.

You claim that's not what you wanted, when asked directly. But most of the "why" description you wrote, seem to indicate that's what you want.

"What am I waiting on, hoping for, stalling for? "

I think you're stalling because you dont want to admit that's why you're doing this. And because you dont want to choose to give up on someone, who is trying to not give up on you, even though he's sick and sucks at it.

well, that... and you've had 3 "outside" nudges to stop, too.

Why can't I just do it? What am I waiting on, hoping for, stalling for?

What do YOU think?

Try not to think about what the right answer is and go for the honest answer.

Techie,
The "why" is because my H:

chose to have multiple affairs
chose to stalk me
chose to threaten me w/the revelation of my past to all
chose to slap me
chose to push me around
chose to threaten suicide to manipulate me
chose to throw things at me
chose to curse me out repeatedly
chose to threaten to see other women to control me
chose to threaten to confront me at church to keep me away

I do:
believe in marriage
want to someone to share my life with
want someone who respects me
want someone I can trust

I'm not getting a divorce so that I can "go looking" for someone else. I am interested in peace in my life and for my daughter.

My life has been on hold for afew years now. I have a bedroom and the use of the rest of the house but, it's not mine. I love to go to antique stores and yard sales but, what do I do with what I buy? I don't have anywhere to put anything. I can't plan trips. I can't do a lot of things because my life is not my own. My H still dictates a lot of what I do. It's easy to say don't let him but, you don't know him. I never know when and where he's going to show up; example was when he drove 2.5 hours in mid December and showed up in a store I was in.

I don't know the point of remaining married.

I'm not looking to jump out of one relationship into another. But, I need closure and I need healing. I don't know what the point would be of not getting the D. I just don't know how to take the final step.

" never know when and where he's going to show up; example was when he drove 2.5 hours in mid December and showed up in a store I was in."

legal separation + restraining order.
would also give you clear use of a place to live, in exactly the same way a divorce would.

I don't know the point of remaining married.

I like noodle's suggestion. I hope you'll manage to answer her post, which will also answer this too, I think <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



[edited
"PS:" yes, I understand your "why" list. I was just prodding you to rethink/rephrase your claim of, "it's the 'right thing to do'", rather than, "it's what I want to do now". One takes ownership of your choice. One dodges ownership of the choice. Just like you tried to do with the other times you tried to dodge ownership of your actions; ie: "I'll keep going, and if it's not God's will, then He'll stop it". Trying to give yourself a P/A 'out' for accepting responsability and putting it on God. Except He surprised you by doing exactly what you thought wouldnt actually happen, and stopping it for a while. ha <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ]

Based on what I'm seeing here what I might walk away with is...

"I can't trust myself to be in control of me when I am with you."

Am I going the wrong direction here or are we seeing eye to eye?

Noodle. In a word "yes". I think there's a lot to what you said:

"I can't trust myself to be in control of me when I am with you."

I had some rather crappy things happen to me as a preadolescent and, without divulging the gory details, those events have shaped a lot of my adult relationships with men. I have virtually no boundaries. I allow myself to get sucked into things that I don't really want to do or to go to or agree to, etc. Lots of times it's in an effort to keep the peace, avoid arguments, etc.

Techie - I'm not seeking a D in order to look for another R but, I do hope one day to have another R. I would like to have someone in my life to share it with. I think the biggest part of me that wants a D is in many ways b/c of all that has been done to destoy the M. The biggest part is the infidelity. I can no longer look at my H w/o seeing the OW. When he tells me he loves me I think about the conversations I heard between him and other women. It hurts because he violated the most sacred part of our R, in my opinion. There should never have been another person that he was intimate with after we met but he did.

It's just hard for me to make that final jump. I know that when I put my signature on that document it is over. There is no going back. And, that's probably a very good thing. But, I just keep holding off and I personally don't know why I can't just let go and get it over with.

I took the suggestion of KaylaAndy and Schoolbus and others and called a women's shelter in my area and talked to one of their counselors. I told her all that had gone on and her basic response was that once the physical abuse line is crossed it only escalates. It never resolves on its own and it never goes away. She said that in her experience the physical abuse may get better in cycles but will slowly get worse.

She also said that someone who continually threatens suicide often ends up taking the his/her life and that of spouse and/or children.

As I sit here reading what I'm typing, I get so angry with myself. I am not a stupid woman. I am in a successful mid management position with a large corporation. I can easily take care of myself. I've done it before. I didn't get married the first time until I was 28. I'm capable in all aspects of my life except when it comes to R issues.

I'm reading this thinking that others who read it will think I'm nuts. I want to be loved and accepted for who I am not what I was. I want to be in a happy, secure, healthy relationship. What I have is not happy, healthy and certainly not secure.

But, I'm not jumping ship in order to swim to the next one.

I just don't know why I can't let go. I believe deep down inside that it would be the right thing to do. But, I can't do it.

then why a divorce instead of legal separation?

PS: a woman's shelter counsellor would never tell you anything different. That's kind of like asking a divorce lawyer whats the best way to recover your marriage. They both have their purposes, but it's important to recognize where they are coming from.
If you want an unbiased opinion, dont you think you should talk to a practicing psychiatrist or psychologist, who doesnt have a vested interest one way or another? (well, maybe they'd have a bias the other way. but even so... best to hear from 'both sides', I would think)

Techie - please - some if not most shelter counselors know the make-up of the women they help is deeply spiritual - and vulnerable.

Most if not all women's shelter counselors have helped women escape harmful relationships like L2S only to have those women return to the abuser and wind up featured on the 5:00 news - as murder victims!

You do not know the harm your "unbiased" opinion can do. btw, most shelter counselors in my state have access and even similar training to the "unbiased" resources you mention.

Please don't insult shelter counselors. They are vital resources to men and women who have been beaten down and subdued, and are afraid to take a chance on change.

I've seen them help the salvageable marriages be restored, only with healthy boundaries in place of pacivity (doormatitis), where the abuser and the abused have both gone through carefully guided recovery. The kind of abuser that refuses - that resorts to manipulative tactics that L2S' husband has - the things he's said and done to her, just in the time this thread has been going have sent chills down my back - because it's not the first time I've read/heard those words - in my professional work - two different careers.

The last thing I want to stress - in my faith there are two divorces that happen - the civil one is the one L2S needs to take, because any harm that her husband does to himself, while she is legally tied to him becomes a liability to her in the legal sense of the word. If he does something malicious on his credit while married, or on his taxes, or in his car becomes a "shared" liability. Since he has this propensity to "damage" L2S any way he can get a reaction/attention from her, she needs to sever that link immediately.

He can get help, recover, and bring forth the fruits of repentance and then be considered for future relationships. But until then, in the legal sense of the word, L2S will not be safe from harm until the ties are completely cut. Even then, she must consider that he is a danger to her while he can reach her - she may actually have to go to the length of moving without leaving any forwarding information. Or just pray he gets into another relationship and a different obsession soon, if he will not turn to God first.