Wow.

Just got though with a volly of emails with my WS.

See says all of our M problems involved sex. My W has a VERY unhealthy image of herself in anything less than a pair of shorts and a teeshirt.

She is actually a stunningly beautiful woman how has a few areas of loose skin from weight loss.

W self image was further damaged in her first M from her H pornography.

W has always wanted plastic surgery to "fix" the problem and now says if she has the surgery, she will feel good enough about herself to feel intimate with me again.

W may honestly believe this, but it sounds like a crock to me.

The M enviroment that allowed the A was not just W feeling bad about herself, but also lack of communication on her part and neglect on mine.

Now we also have the A in the way which seem would just like to forget.

W says if I can't last long enough in the M for her to get the surgery, to just be their as her best friend and help her through.

I have informed her that I want nothing but a fully commited M and love as defined by the Hurley's or Mort Freitel.

She says it isn't possible without the surgery.

I can't imagine commiting to anything as costly as the surgery without some examples of commitment like NC and MC.

Any thoughts?

Is she playing games? She normally isn't the type but she has recently admitted to me that she has played some with me in the past to allow her to drink.

We have an appointment with Jennifer C next week but my W will not have started any alchohol treatment by that time. Will Jennifer do MC while W starts?

Hi SS -


I think every WS says something like this at some point. However, her pain is not yours to deal with. It's hers. As LovingAnyway keeps telling me, don't take on what is not yours to own. You can certainly be supportive, but it is not your responsibility.


She's trading one addiction for another (IMO, I'm not an expert). As ML pointed out, her addiction needs to be dealt with successfully before you can stand any real chance of recovering your marriage.

You may have to take a hard line on this one, SS. You may have to set up a boundary - AA and her family, or no AA and no family. But you have to be willing to enforce it. Don't set it until you're ready to follow through.


Did SH say that? Unless you know for sure what SH will or won't do, don't shoot yourself in the foot by making assumptions. Even if SH won't talk to your wife yet, he'll certainly talk to you. Don't delay calling him.


First - stop trying to educate your WS. It won't work. It never does. SH will probably tell you the same thing. Simply state your boundary - "Establish and maintain NC, or <insert your consequence here>".

Trying to educate a WS is a wasted effort. It's simply words that will fall on deaf ears. Actions, not words, are your key here. And your actions come from your boundaries and your personal code.

If you keep looking for a "good time" to bring up your boundaries, you will never find it. Sooner is better than later in this case. And I really think your first boundary needs to be around her addiction (though others with more experience may have better ideas).


Do you want to save your marriage? DO NOT separate. If she wants to leave, let her. But you stay in your home with your kids where you belong.

Of course she hurts when she sees you. She should. This is a good thing. It means she, on some level, recognizes the incredible damage she's done to the man she professed to love.

Pain is a great motivator for change.


Keep doing this. Keep meeting the ENs she'll let you meet. Even if it doesn't feel right. It's critical that you establish these habits and practices now. Apply the same logic to yourself that you've tried to apply to her - it takes time for the spark to return. For both of you.



Oh, my friend, you are not lost. You feel lost. But you are putting together a plan. You can't be lost when you have a plan.

Keep building and working your plan. And expose to OMW pronto (I know the holidays are here, but don't delay too long - exposure can be critical to ending an affair).

Well I set my boundary for NC with my W tonight. Told her Contact at the job was a threat to my marriage and hurt me deeply.

W said she won't quit the job and is sorry I feel that way.

I told her I didn't see any real recovery without NC and she said she wouldn't quit.

I asked if I should cancel our first MC with Jennifer C next week and she said it was up to me but at least wait to ask the councellor first.

Now what?

Exactly when is she going into treatment?

She hasn't said she will go to AA. She is trying to quit cold turkey.

She has tried AA b4 and says it doesn't work for her.

I would go ahead and have counseling with Jennifer and see if she can get through to her.

What does that mean she is "trying to quit cold turkey?" Did she quit or is she just yakking about it?

AA does not work unless you work it. You have to actually go to meetings and work the steps and get a sponsor. Just stopping drinking will never resolve the problem. AA addresses the underlying LIVING problem and teaches people to STAY sober and LIVE sober.

Did you expose the affair to the OMW?

"She has tried AA b4 and says it doesn't work for her. "

Probably true - in AA the goal is to stop drinking.

Doing it yourself involves promises which you break, excuses, and lots of time spent drinking and thinking about stopping.

And I saw an interesting thing on TV the other day. We all like to think of AA as a place you go, a miracle happens, and you are cured. But as it turns out, people go, fail, go again, fail, and keep at it. They say "Don't give up a day before the miracle".

And her own methods did work? Please remind her that those people are sober, she is not.

SS -


You've expressed your boundary. Now you need to decide (if you haven't already) what the consequence is for her not being willing to meet your boundary.

Ultimately, only you can decide what this boundary is. Unfortunately, it appears that you have 2 problems here - your wife's addiction, and her affair. Both have to be resolved for you to recover your marriage.

The choice, in reality, is quite simple. Following through with the choice, on the other hand, is quite hard.

So what do you see as your consequences for violation of your NC boundary? There's no right or wrong answer here, and there's no single answer either, IMO. You can go for an all-or-nothing approach, or for a "stepped" approach, with gradually increasing severity of consequences.

Given the nature of your situation, I think swift and drastic action is required - think in terms of "intervention".

In the end, it does come down to two choices. You can either take a stand for what you will and won't tolerate, even if that means your wife leaves you, or you can, as ML once told me, volunteer to continue to be a victim.

You don't have to decide this instant. In fact, I'd recommend you not make any decisions until after you've talked with Jennifer (do not cancel the appointment, especially since your wife seems willing to at least give it a shot). She's the expert, and she may see options that we here on the forum don't.

But do continue to think about what you want in your marriage, what you're willing to allow and not allow within that context, and what you will do to protect yourself, your kids and your marriage if your boundaries are not respected.

Her cold turkey ,ML is no drinking with no help to do so. She has gone 4 days now but has substituted sleep medication as her fell nothing drug of choice. W has told me on an email today that she will have to stop taking that except to sleep.

We are keeping the appointment with Jennifer next week and I have a day off next Friday. So I will be going to see OMW then as her kids will be back in school and OM at work.

I don't know if I should offer to take her or if this is something she should do on her own.

W is asking me to remind her of this, that and the other alot lately. Probably from the "fog" and alchohol. Not sure if my invovement is "enabiling" her or putting it on my shoulders to make it happen.

So far, only expressed my pain and likely hood that M recovery would be nearly immpossible without NC. W says she has only seen OM twice and talked only once in 2 months.Of course the conversation was about both M with OM which occurred frequently during the A. Of course she says it was harmless and she was trying to help with OM M. Is that coming from her, the most recent cause of OM M problems? Hmmm.

W brought up this morning our NC talk last night and said she would rather not quit her job but to wait and see what
the MC says.

I have not set a drug/alchohol boundary yet as the consequences seem more fuzzy, ie; liklihood of falling off the wagon and all.

Please go to Alanon.

Please tell the OM's wife.

SS -

What's the latest? Kids should be back in school now - have you exposed to the OM's W?

How are things with your wife?

How are things with you?

Hello HB.

Exposure day is tomorrow. My day off this week.

My wife is misirable with guilt, hopelessness, and depression.

W has not been drinking but still over medicating on sleep med's.

W states my plan A is making her feel more love all the time, but is obssessing about not having sexual feelings towards me still. The guilt that follows is crushing her ability to see much of anything she says.

W also is torn between staying in our M and returning home, 8 hours away. With her abusive upbringing, she is co-dependant on the needs of her family and has been torn since she moved away with me. She wants 'us' and she wants to be there for her mom and nephew.

I on the other hand am doing well. Thank you for asking. W says I look better than the day we met(8 yrs ago) and find me sexier and more handsome than ever(probably the pills).

Mentally and emotionally, thanks to a lot or reading, soul searching, and ppl like yourself on this thread have helped me tremendously.

On the downside, we had a councelling session with Jennifer on Monday night for 2 plus hours.

My W is headstrong doesn't like to be told things she doesn't believe in. W thinks coach needs to be someone who has "gone through what she has". Got this notion from some vendor from her work. Not sure why our M would come up in that conversation but....

Told her MB about building the future as opposed to rehashing the past and W is stuggling with it. Had to cancel hext weeks call.

She still thinks we need a retreat or "something" that will give her hope to get the sexual feelings to return so she can decide to stay or go.

Jennifer told me privatly that she had little doubts with W situation that they would return but it seems far off for my W.

W has been listening to Mort Frietel's CD about Marriage Fitness programs and she likes those.

(Update) W just emailed to not cancel with Jennifer if I thought it would help. Says she is behind me 100%. Seems like she is putting this off on me a bit.

W says she is filling out her EN's questionaire today and would like to see mine. Says she hasn't given up and hopes that she hasn't lost my love or friendship even though she doesn't deserve either. Maybe more guilt and hopelessness or something else?

Very, very promising that she wants you to keep appointment with Jennifer, and is filling out the EN's questionaire too, and would like to see yours!!!!!

Usually they won't counsel with the Harley's and if they DO, they won't do the homework. Fill yours out and hang in there.

Well, to be honest, mine has been filled out since Thanksgiving. W has been a 'little' lax. LOL

Wish I could get W on here to read threads and ask questions of FWS about the sexual feelings returning. W is really putting pressure on herself and the R to feel now.

Well, went to OM home today to expose contact at workplace. She wasn't there either time so I'll try again Tuesday.

W didn't get EN's questionaire done yet and said she would only talk to Jennifer(MC) one more time.

I told her if she waan't going to listen and put a one call limit that we shouldn't waste the money until she is ready.

Told me she is feeling more for me everyday and I am finally acting like the H she always hoped I would be, but still has not sexual feelings and it is making her guilt worse.

She started a R talk last night talking about MC. As she was talking, she gets guilty and lashes out in anger. The great thing is W emailed me today and actually told me she used anger and resentment about the past to lessen her guilt. Also that she is likely in denial that she REALLY had an A.

W has been of the opinion that since it wasn't a PA it wasn't really an A and she wouldn't have the feelings of those A's in the books.

I will keep plan A going and hope she see's some light in her SF feelings soon. Don't know what will trigger that.

Hi SS -


Why wait until Tuesday? I would suggest trying everyday until you can expose.


Careful there, friend. That was a DJ (telling her she wasn't going to listen). She's willing to go one more time, right? Take it - let Jennifer see if she can get her to keep going.

At the point you and your wife are at, sometimes you have to focus on the minute-by-minute things. Don't ignore the future, but don't try to predict either. Focus on what you can do right now, in the hopes of favorably affecting your future.


I've been told by at least one counselor that in these situations, intimacy is often the last thing to return. It sounds like she's seeing more and more positives in you, so stay focused on your Plan A. Recovery is a journey - often a long one.


She is making progress, in my very unprofessional opinion. Again, this takes time. It can't be rushed or hurried along.


Yes, keep Plan Aing. SF is important, but don't get hung up on it or try to figure out how to make it happen. Work on you - make you the best husband, father and person you can be. That's probably the surest way to get her back into SF.

I think things are going well for you - keep it up.

Oh..how are things on the drinking and medication front? Do not let those two things get swept under the rug, lest they come back to bite you later.

Hello HB.

Actually, the DJ you mentioned and the med's go hand in hand.

W actually got up and left from our first MC with Jennifer half way through. That is what I meant with not listening. Still was a DJ, I know, but she had sucked down the med's before the call and wasn't in any frame of mind to accomplish anything on the call IMHO.

I'm not sure I am the one focusing on SF. W mentions daily it is the one thing missing in her feelings for me and is applying ALOT of pressure on the R because of guilt not feeling it and it being a high EN for both of us.

In her med stupor tonight she rambled about not believing love is a choice or a verb/action. It's her opinion that it is a feeling and that's all. I validate it and try to move on but she just is obsessed about the lack of desire right now.

I appricate your point about the day to day and minute by minute things. That helps my perspective a bunch.

As far as the exposure, I was preferring doing it without OM and the kids there. My next work outta the house day is Tuesday.

I have been to one Alanon meeting and will be going back next week. Should W know I am going?

NC still not established by W leaving job but she brought it up today and seems closer/resigned.

A few of Orchid's posts with BossLady I read today mention sucsessful recovery dependant upon having both feet in the door of commitment to recover lost feelings. Wondering if W indecision about returning home to her family is slowing her down. She is codependant on her mother.

SS -

Just checking in to see how things are going.


Not sure there's a whole lot you can do to help there. It sounds like she might still be focusing on feelings, and not on what she needs to do to get there. You might try letting her know that you can wait and that she doesn't need to feel pressured in the SF department - that it can and will come back with time.


I don't see why not. Make sure she understands that you are going for you, not in an attempt to make her go.

I don't know a lot about AA, but from what little I do know it sounds like it's a program geared both for the alcoholic, and those who have alcoholics in their lives.


Any further progress here? It has to come from her...she knows what you need. You've done your part for now...once NC is established, you should be a willing partner in helping her maintain it, but it is, and always will be, primarily her responsibility.


Not sure I understand the question. By returning home to her family, does that mean she'd leave you?