Thank you ML. You say it so gently but pull no punches.

Gosh, I hate when she hates herself. She has done that all her life. Wish I could keep her in IC. She is going to have to do it for herself.

Going to be chilly tonight, I think.

She is calming down right before your eyes, SS. When she gets home tonight, give her a big hug and tell her you are sorry this is so hard on her. This is a consequence of having an affair, though. It is tough, but you know that she is tough enough to handle it. BE VERY SYMPATHETIC, rather than defensive. Got dat? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Unfortunately, an IC probably isn't going to get her too far. An IC will simply lower the bar for her, instead of helping her raise the bar and change her behavior, so that she has something TO esteem. That is what is BRILLIANT about AA. Instead of lowering the bar to accommodate or minimize shortcomings, they teach the alcholic to change their behavior to rise to the bar. Alcholics have low self esteem becasue there usually isn't much there *TO* esteem. AA teaches us to live and act in a way that is esteemable. It teaches us to behave in ways that don't make us feel guilty.

My W was beat from the age of two for crying by her father. She didn't cry in front of anyone from the age of 5 except me. She see's getting up in front of AA and expressing negative emotions as being weak for her or others.

I expressed admiration in those in AA for the struggles they went through and being strong enough to express themselves to others. These are recovering alcholics and she isn't. Hard for her to see.

Believe fear has alot to do with it.
No chance to call into Dr. Hurley today with the exposure. Guess it's tomorrow.

She did email me back and says she loves me. We will see.

Thank you for all your help today ML. I appriciate your helping me through a tough day.

Well, she is weak in the face of alcohol so she should fit right in. But, she shouldn't go there and "get up in front of AA and express negative emotions." She needs to go there and LISTEN. Like they told me, TAKE THE COTTON OUT OF YOUR EARS AND PUT IT IN YOUR MOUTH! [ie: shut the he11 up!] <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> hehee They aren't going to tolerate a lot of "expressing of emotions," because they are there to learn the 12 steps of AA. THAT is what she will be doing at AA.

I have no doubt she has told you all they do is stand around and "express negative emotions" in order to discredit AA, but that ain't what they do there, SS. That is what folks do at counselors. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Good luck tonight! I am sure you will do great!

Well that was an interesting 36 hours.

Exposure to OMW. 2 Calls. W calls me because OMW called her and threatened to come to her job and confront my W and OM. W calls me and says it's over and who do I think I am and well read above if you want.

I get home and W still wants to know why I called OMW and "put her through this pain again". Keep in mind OM had been lying to his wife about the extent,length, and seriousness of the affair ever since dday in October.

Wife gets drunk last night when I go get and spend time with my daughter. Passed out when I get home.

I find her booze and leave it on the counter for this morning. W pours it all out.

Doesn't email or call me but 3 times all day when I get an email that caused my jaw to hit the floor late this afternoon.

On my way home from work I get a call from OMW and OM. That one was TOTALY fun in a way, but I so feel for the OMW and told her I felt for her pain and let her know what to expect. Gave her this website and wished her God's guidance and support.

Here is my W email:

Babe yesterday when you said we haven’t even started on our marriage I got confused. To me our marriage even like it is, is better than most people. Can you tell me what I could do to make you feel better about us? I would really like to know.


Well, since W hasn't commited to NC, the M, not moving out, not moving back to another state, not doing anything to rebuild trust, is still in denial about wheather the A was an A, I just don't know what to say or how to take it.

Just psyco maybe? In denial about what she did and how much work our M needs?

Anyone have something similar occur?

Yes, she is in denial. And she is asking you what she needs to do to make your marriage better. You should tell her: end contact with the OM and get help for her drinking. In order for you to feel safe, she needs to leave her job and cut off all contact. That is the first step.

Tell her recovery is impossible if she does not end contact FOREVER. You cannot possibly recover and live in peace if she is going to work every day to see her OM. It is the height of disrespect TO YOU to continue working with her affair partner. It places her job over your marriage.

Secondly, tell her that recovery can't even begin until she does something about her drinking. Tell her how her drinking is effecting your marriage. Tell her how disgusting it is to see her pig drunk. It is putrid and she needs to hear this. Suggest that she go to AA.

Sorry ML edited and added the call from OMW and OM an hour ago.

Also neglected to mention no SF for 6 months and her not having intimate feelings for me which she hasn't revealed has changed.

I don't see the rosey that she does.

Taking from your previous posts, ML those two items were the only responses I had written for a reply.

We will see if she wants to know where I stand.

SS, what did the OM and the OMW say?

Like I said, I couldn't help but get some enjoyment out of OM calling my W a liar about this and that. Amazing since I had told the OMW Om had lied about the number of calls and the duration of the A up to this time.

OMW controls all marital assets and would get the kids so he is begging, pleading, whining, etc. to his wife and not attack me on the call.

OMW is going throught the same ****** I was three months ago but is better off because OM is "saying" he is commited to their M. She is worse off because she has been lied to constantly after dday.

I told her two things with him on the line. To remember she could WANT the M and want him, but she didn't NEED either and not to believe much of anything OM said until she was ready to let him rebuild trust again. I truly feel for her pain and anger.

Abit envious because I believe my W had more commited emotionally to the A than OM and is still all over the place one day to the next on what she wants.

I expected to talk about what I wanted from her, per her request yesterday and between pills and booze again W spent the night sleeping. I have that on top of our M issues.

Told W this morning that I believed she was going to need help dealing with the booze and she didn't agree but didn't disagree either.

I think it might be time to tell her that I am going to believe I would be better apart if she doesn't address this problem soon.

Regardless of her email yesterday about M being better than most, we have no M as it exists today.

Hi SS -

I've been off the boards for a couple of days - I'm glad ML was here to help keep you sane in the moments post exposure.

Remember, exposing to OMW does several things:

1. It gives OMW the information she needs to decide if she wants to stay or go.
2. It puts immense pressure on the A, because now both BS are aware of what has gone on.
3. It lessens the chance of contact from OM, because he knows he's in a world of sh*t right now, and if he truly wants his marriage and his kids, he'll tow the line.
4. You now have an ally in OMW to monitor NC.

However, you need to be extremely aware of appearances if you have any further interaction with OMW. Do not meet in private, do not drive in the same cars, etc. In other words, do absolutely nothing that can even appear as an inappropriate relationship with OMW.

ML is right - you're going to make very little progress in your M until your wife takes proactive steps (AA) to address her drinking. She needs to understand that you will not stay in a marriage if she continues to drink, because her drinking is a threat to your marriage.

I can tell you, from pesonal experience (recent experience, even) that when the BS takes a stand for themselves, their family and their marriage, interesting things start to happen in the WS. It's almost always the opposite of what the BS fears.

You're in a good spot, even if it doesn't feel like it. Not the best spot by a long shot, but a good spot. You're wife is still there, living with you. She's asking you for guidance. She is open to you being the lighthouse, even while she's simultaneously fighting you on it.

Unfortunately, the burden, at least initially, is on the BS. If you want your marriage, and from everything you've said, you do, you're in for a very rough ride. You're going to have to put your needs (those you want your wife to fulfill) on the shelf for a bit.

You've done very well for someone so new to this situation (IMO). I wish I had been as strong as you have been. Stand steady and firm. Be the loving husband you are - but don't become a doormat.

How are you doing today? How are you feeling, and what's on your mind? Talk to us, and let us help you through these dark times. You can make it through this. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hello HB. There will be no contact between OMW and myself.

Just feel for her right now is all.

I do get the impression that the A was over in October and that there has been minimal contact (once or twice) since. As I explained to the OMW, a flare up could occur since the A and the emotions were cut off unnaturally(my W guilt call to end it 2 days before dday). She doesn't seemed concerned about flare up at all. She assures me she will stay diligent on her end if she doesn't file for D.


Told W this morning she was going to need help to stop drinking. No response. I think I will go back to her offer yesterday of asking what I needed to feel good about our M tonight and set my two boundaries(NC and AA) for our M.

Worried about my own love bank not having deposits. On one hand if its about maintaining deposits, How do I do that?

If love is a choice, which I have made, do the deposits matter or just make the choice easier?

Under MB principles, it seems difficult for the long haul of treatment to even get to a let's begin building state.

Per my personality type, I'm probably putting too much into this.

I feel my W is trying to keep me dancing about her commitment because she thinks she might be just as happy if she moves back to her family 8 hours away. Guess I just know where to go without expecting more of a commitment.

SS, her drinking and the continued contact with the OM will drain your lovebank for her until there is nothing left. A marriage with an active alcoholic is not a marriage, because you are not the first love. Her continued contact with the OM makes recovery impossible.

That is why you will want to pursue these 2 issues, because they are the greatest threat to your marriage and absolutely impede recovery. Drinking is about the worst lovebuster there is, nor is she able to ever love you as long as she is active alcoholic.

Hi SS -


I think that's a good idea. As ML pointed out, she's got to get OM and drinking out of her life. As long as those two things are present and her #1 priority, your marriage will not go anywhere (or at least, anywhere good).


She will most likely not make significant deposits until she's through withdrawal. And withrdawal can't complete until NC is established. The amount of time for withdrawal (from an A) varies, depending on the intensity and length of the affair. I'm not even going to guess at how long withdrawal from drinking can take - no experience there.

Love is a choice - and it's great that you recognize and choose that. And yes, the deposits do matter, even if you don't see a result right away. I don't know that they make the choice any easier, but getting into the habit of making deposits will result in it being a natural way of life for you.

So what can you do about your dwindling LB?

Continue Plan A. Don't forget, Plan A is really about you. Making you a better husband, father, person. Something that has the potential of attracting your spouse back (and you've seen this already). Do things for yourself - hobbies, interests, whatever.

You might also want to start considering Plan B - at least, what you need to do to put Plan B in place. Please understand, I am not suggesting you go into Plan B at this point. I'm not.

But it does take time to get a solid Plan B set-up, so it's best to at least consider some of the things for Plan B - while maintaining the best Plan B you can.


Your wife has not yet committed fully back to the marriage. Whether or not you want to be her partner in that dance is up to you.

So where do you go without expecting more of a committment?

Continue Plan A. Continue to work on yourself. Stand firm on your boundaries (NC and AA). Start giving some consideration to Plan B.

It's not over until it's over. Live your life according to your standards and boundaries. If you continue to act as you have been, and continue to stay true to your boundaries, you stand a very good chance of attracting your wife all the way back to you.

Don't be afraid of what your wife may or may not do. And don't be afraid to ask questions here - there are many people who have gone through (or are going through) what you are, and can offer support and advice.

I think you're doing fine...you're very aware of your situation and surroundings, and seem quite centered, despite being in the storm of your life. Keep it up.

Well, had the what am I looking for talk tonight.

Described marriage I was looking for and W said she would love it.

Told her that her drinking was a killer on our future R and she agreed saying she knows she needs help but it has to be a program she believes in not one "forced" on her. Said she has to find it and do it. I fully agreed.

Repeated that contact was a recovery killer as well and she said she understood, but since she still doens't have the faith in her intimate feelings returning that I do she was hesitant to leave the best paying job she has ever had. I asked her if she were open to any alternatives and said we needed to go to her boss and have OM phone and email blocked on her computer and vise versa. She said that was no problem. Said that an NC letter had to be written by her and agreed upon by me and mailed to both OM and OMW, W said no problem. Said she sent OM a NC email on Tuesday after OMW called her. I said great but I wanted to see the letter and that the email was itself contact. W said she understood. W agreed to call me even if she just saw him accross the parking lot.

This is likely the best I am gonna get on NC right now.

W issues still go back in her mind to not feeling sexual towards me and doesn't understand how "doing things" like we are in love and treating each other with loving actions will get her to that point again. W knows neither one of us wants a M without that passion and SF. W says she needs to feel something before she can commit whatever sacrifices and changes need to be made.

Says she feels she is out of 'fog' a few weeks ago and out of withdraw around the same time.

Says she loves me more than she has in many years and feels sick with her self about not feeling sexual with me. Feels she is broken.

Have got her tempted to start reading MB threads. W has read MB summary and think she would get more from ppl who have real life experiance going through what she is.

Is there a good FWW who might be a good source, Orchid maybe?

I did tell W that my boundaries for our M are firm. No timetable on when recovery has to begin because of the 'feelings' issue but that I wasn't going to wait forever on her to try.

Going to her work tomorrow to set phones and email boundary up with employer and do NC letter this weekend.

Unfortunately, she is not going to "feel" anything until a) contact ends [ie: she leaves the job] and b) she stops drinking. So this is an impossible expectation, SS.

What she *is* willing to "sacrifice" is your marriage, though. That is very clear. She will not take even the most basic steps to protect your marriage and show you the care and protection you need to recover from her affair.


Well of course it can't be "forced" on her, that is silly. You have never suggested having her legally committed in a straightjacket. The point is that you cannot be "forced" to live with an alcoholic.


Can I suggest you not even bother, ss? This gives the impression that you are willing to settle for an unworkable solution, which only helps her stay there. She is willing to SACRIFICE your marriage, don't help her do that, SS.

Thank you ML. You are right on all counts.

Now I guess it's time to decide consequenses for not being willing to honor my boundaries.

I believe the issue has hit me square in the forehead.

Mort Fertel preches we instead of me. I believe my wife doesn't want to see it that way.

SS, on second thought, this might work out to your favor if it is not presented as an alternative solution to her leaving the job. Exposing her at work will probably motivate one of them to leave and it will also make it much harder for them to pick up again until she does leave. So, can I suggest that you go ahead and do this, but make it clear this is NOT a solution to the problem, per se?

Also, please consider calling Dr. Harley on his radio show and telling him your dilemma. He is just fabulous and could give you some free expert advice.

Both OM boss and W boss know of the A. They are both very good friends with their respective subordinate.

I will be picking up my W for lunch and will take the opportunity to do as you suggest at her work.

I will try to contact the radio show today.

Keep up the good work, SS! I know this is very difficult and you are doing a great job. I am hoping that Dr. Harley could give you a strategy on how to approach the drinking problem and her refusal to leave the job. He really is very, very good and might be able to help you with this. If you send him an email briefly outlining the situation, that would give him a head start for when you call. He is on the air from 10-1 cst.