I'm coming up on a year now - with little change in the situation. W is in an RA with my cousin, 3000 miles away. Our financial situation has prevented us from separating up until now, and I have wanted to minimize the negative impact on our 4 year old son, so I haven't entered plan B.

I have grown considerably through this experience, and have found that while it's a dissapointing experience, I don't regret it. Life is what you make of it, after all. My question is kind of a response to this attitude. While I think it's healthy in most ways, it requires a proactive approach to life to avoid accepting miserable circumstances and making the best of them. How do I know when it's time to move on, that doing all I can to being a partner in a great marriage with my wife is holding me back from a life with more promise and better potential?

I had all the justification in the world to divorce my W once I found out about this affair. I made the decision to stand for my marriage, and have done so. She continues to escape her life, and while I am sure that the state of our relationship was not perfect and led to frustration, I am relatively convinced that much of the reason for her affair lies in her character and personal issues she has. It seems that she continues to succumb to her issues, escaping them through the affair and blaming me rather than standing for herself and her life. Have I done enough? Or would my turning away be a selfish act of abandonment?

And then there's the question: is the cost of divorce worth it? Isn't it always cheaper to fix a relationship than end one and move on? Less emotional strife, less financial cost? I guess I'm still somewhat convinced that the idea of saving a marriage is the better option. But I seem to be losing hope. Losing faith that my W will ever be an equal partner. Losing faith that she'll recognize and face her issues in order to make herself a better partner.

I know this is a question only I can answer, and I know I'm not the only one to ask one like this. I just begin to feel like I'm doing the same thing over and over with good reason, yet it tends to become enabling rather than inspiring change. One of the issues is with my W's dependency, and her sense that she has a right to believe that I am and should be responsible for her feelings and well-being (often under the premise of "you should just know it needs to be done"). I have become very aware of how I play into this dynamic, and I refuse to do so. It's not a very warm environment for her to return to, because I'm not "proving" to her that I can be what she wants. What she wants me to be is a better person for her to be dependant on. Not a good foundation for a relationship.

If anyone has any thoughts, let loose.

It's a perfect time to go to Plan B. Let the OM meet all her needs.

I know in conventional cases, this is the clear choice right now. In my case it may be too, but their are complicating factors that may make the cost too high for the potential good outcome. Because the A is long distance, they can't "be" together to help facilitate the burn-out of the affair (my mother suggested that I pay for W to fly out and stay there with him for 3 months - she has, after all, known her nephew all his life and knows him to be extremely selfish). So it's inevitable that they would continue the tragic love affair with circumstances being the common enemy rather than be able to normalize their relationship and find that once the fantasy is gone, they have nothing. So it seems to me that plan b wouldn't work in this sense. It may, however, help W realize that she's better off with me than without. It may also help me to continue my growth and self realization.

On the other side of this is the fact that we would have to give up our apartment. This is big for us because it's a great place that was gifted to us, and it's our son's home. If we separate, neither one of us can afford it. We live in an expensive area, and if we separate and I need to pay child support (at about 17%) I won't be able to afford much in the way of an apartment - which won't look good for custody. I'd like to have at the very least 50/50 custody, but since she's the stay at home mom (and resents me for this), she's got the advantage here.

I have been thinking more and more that it's the right thing to do. Once we're in the new year, it will have been a year. I think it's a good time to truly explore all of these options. We have been in therapy (under the premise that we're trying to figure out how to get along for the sake of our son) for about 3 sessions now. The therapist is really good and it seems to me that she's clear on the irrational thinking that's going on with my W. She has been putting a lot of focus on my W taking responsibility for her wants and needs (in all of her relationships) and not expecting people to just know what she needs or wants and then resenting them for not doing what she expects. I think the fact that the therapist puts this focus on her - essentially empowering her - might help with her blame and self loathing. It hasn't changed a whole lot, but last session W was in tears, so it's having an impact on her. I don't really want to sabotage a process that might be having a profound impact on her mental health.

Well, Muddle, yours is a very good post with lots of cogent questions.

It so happens that your circumstances and your concerns are very much like mine, with one exception, and that is that you are both getting counseling.

And I think that is a significant difference, because there is a chance that a good counselor can help your wife resolve her issues.

I believe that, when children are involved, an exceptional effort should be made to try to save the marriage. The line drawn in the sand is whether the issues which plague the WS are unresolvable, or at least appear to be that way for the foreseeable future.

Of course there are other situations that beg for separation and that would be the living conditions. Is there abuse? Does the child detect the elephant in the room? Has it affected the child's behavior negatively?

The apartment, etc., are peripheral issues that deserve consideration but shouldn't be decisive factors.

From what you have said, I think you should stick it out until you feel confident that no progress will be made in your situation.

I'm a little concerned because it sounds like you are protecting her from the consequences of her actions. I say this becuase I use to do the same thing with my DH. I would take on his responsiblies, and he wouldn't have to deal with it. I "took care" of him...

My DH was perfectly able to do if for himself but since I did it, he was happy with the way things were...but in essence, I was miserable...felt overwhelmed ALL the time! DH would claim I was controlling him...and in some ways I was...but in others, he was the one in control...

I had to move my buttons to change that Passive aggressive behavior between the two of us. I had to stop fearing what would happen if I let DH feel the consequences. That was his stuff, not mine...learning to let go was hard...still is!

Seems to me that you are headed in the right direction...LOL...keep up the good work...

Thanks Hiker and Rinder. I too believe that no effort should be spared in trying to make a marriage work if there are children involved. However, as Rinder eluded to, our effort is often expended in less than effective ways. My wife has complained that I am an enabler - that I have allowed her to become dependant on me because I have taken on too much responsibility in our family life. I agree, and I have been far more aware of this for both our sakes. I found that Cloud and Townsend's book on boundaries was a really eye opening read (what I got to read of it before it was confiscated by my W - it was given to her - because it was supporting my thinking!) and it has many applications in my entire life.

So while I don't want to protect my W from the consequences of her actions - I would hate to deprive her of the valuable opportunities for growth they present - I am sure that I am unknowingly doing so. I am learning how and where I do this, and I think that even if the therapy doesn't help us in our marriage, it will help me understand how I contribute to an unhealthy dynamic such as this.

As for your questions, Hiker: I'm not sure how much off an impact the current situation is having on our son. We are relatively calm and controlled while we are in his presence (and by we, I tend to mean my W because she is prone to angry outbursts and tantrums - most often to bully me into getting her way). I know it had quite a negative impact initially. W would often spend all day on the computer instant messaging, neglecting our S. He would sit in his dirty pull-ups for hours. In fact, I potty trained him while W was away with OM. W would act out, scream and yell, even hit me in front of S4. Recently she's been more composed - after I sent out an email to her parents informing them of her behavior (I had to impose some kind of consequence) and telling both them and her that I will not hesitate to file a complaint with the police should this happen again. This was in response to an argument where she brought up going to see my cousin again and I told her that if she were to go that we would have to figure out new living arrangements because we wouldn't be staying here. She responded by escalating her tone of voice to yelling (while I was reminding her that our S was in the next room and we should postpone the conversation until it was safe for his sake - I think she took this as me shutting her out and avoiding her) and then eventually, she became physical and hit me while our son entered the room. I'm not sure if this would be classified as abuse - but it's clearly a lack of self control and not something I want modeled for my son.

Yes, fear is one of the biggest issues for me. I have been operating in this relationship by caving to "threats" of my W withholding her love for me. She uses this tact to control me - knowingly - and when that doesn't work she resorts to intimidation and eventually physical force. My problem is recognizing when I'm allowing myself to respond to this and responding reasonably instead. I've made great progress in this, but there's still the irrational reaction rearing its ugly head more often than I'd like. It's difficult to move those buttons.

Thanks again for your input.

LOL...You're not alone...LOL...it was for me also...I started out by saying that I was not afraid of DH anymore. I made alot of O&H statements that he didn't understand how fearful I was.

What I had to come to understand that MY fear was always great then the consequences. Granted, I still have that fear, but I act through it now! LMAO...it's getting easier.

I was so fearful that I wouldn't speak up for myself or put my foot down when I thought I should. I felt like I gave in and gave in and that led to angry and resentment on my part. I was the one usually yelling and I "WAS" taking that resentment and anger out on the kids.

The past seven or eight months have been good for me. I felt like I couldn't allow myself to direct my anger at DH so I directed it at the kids. I know abusive...my shame...my penance to them will continue.

It's just so hard to identify the enmeshment and break the cycle but bit by bit, you can do it!

Classic example in my house was DH would walk in the house in a bad mood and I would take on his mood...we would bounce off each other...I didn't understand that his mood was about him and not about me. I thought that he was mad at me and i would ask him about it until he did become mad with me. Self fulfilling prophecy...LMAO.

It's alot of work...but you'll get there! Being aware is half the battle! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think I'm over the fear, for the most part, because what I was afraid of losing is, for all intents and purposes, lost already. That's not to say that I've fixed my propensity to direct my focus more towards the immediate situation (the one with the most emotional value) and ignore the more long-term ramifications. I have allowed myself to be responsible for easing my W's negative emotions and often do things for her to give her a quick fix for her emotions (which become the immediate problem) rather than allowing her to see these negative emotions as consequences of her irrational beliefs and philosophies. I'm assisting her in avoiding unpleasant immediate consequences (i.e. shopping for her when she's fearful of being around other people) and end up causing, or being a part of the cause of, problems down the road (she now has an overwhelming sense of being a prisoner in our home and being completely dependant on me - and blames me for it and thinks I like it despite my supporting her desire to change this).

In spending a lot of time on this BB and others, I have found that most people have contributed quite a bit to issues in the relationship that set up the affair. While I tend to agree that this is the case, I can't really find high profile issues in myself that I need to change. I think I tended to lose myself in trying to take care of my W's feeling and I could never adequately do so. I was accomodating to the point where I gave up being myself - yet I don't really resent my W for this. I'm very clear that every action I have taken in my life was my decision, even if I was led to believe that I had no choice.

Plan A for me has been less an attempt to better meet my W's needs than it has been an effort to renew the relationship I have with myself. I tried the accomodation route with my W and look where it got us. Even now it seems that her greatest gripe with me is that I'm not good enough for her to be totally dependant on. She blames me for all of her negative emotions just because I'm there. While I'm sensitive to the fact that I do contribute to our problems, and that I may give my W reason to be frustrated with me, I have been focusing on making all of my actions come from me - things that I want to do because I want to do them - not because I want to get a reaction from her. Truly being myself. I have been aware of where I've been giving away my personal power and I've been protecting it more with my boundaries. I'm still kind and generous, but I sometimes don't give of myself in ways that my W thinks I should (under names like "courtesy" or "respect"). She's focused on trying to control my behavior - but I'm not trying to return the favor.

This has been a tough time, but I'm stronger now than I've been in a long time, and I wouldn't change history if I could. I think I'm in a far better place as far as trusting myself goes and I don't succumb to my W's beratement about how I don't do things the way a "normal person" would, etc. The sad thing here is that she tries so hard to control me because she can't control herself. She allows her negative emotions to dominate her and can only really think critically when she's criticizing someone else (namely me). And she then turns this on herself - not in a constructive way. So inevitably, the only way she is able to generate self esteem (very loosely using this word) is to perform tasks perfectly and get the approval of others.

I tend to think that this is at the very root of our marital problems. I don't think the way she does about this, so I'm happy doing something imperfectly, but getting it done. I tend to explore doing a lot of things that are out of my comfort zone as well, and consequently I live a pretty rich life (I think). I also don't believe that getting things makes me happy, I think it's something deeper than that. That's part of the reason that I feel like I was a bit of a fraud in our marriage. I would appease her, giving her "material" things to make her feel better, yet knowing that these were only temporary ways of distracting her from the hurts of her life. I never really pushed her to get out and acheive - how could I really? I supported her in being who she wanted to be, and I respected her decision to be who she chose. When she later decided that she didn't like who she had become, I was to blame. I can't say that I think her choices are great, but she is. I can't change what she chooses, but I can live my life by making choices that will contribute to my growth and will allow me to nurture my family. What more can I do? I can't live my W's life for her.

MT-

I think that you have the bases covered. I would say continue doing what you are doing with counseling. Aside from the Social axniety disorder, is there anything else that can contribute to her personal issues?

I was wondering if she was a child of an alcoholic or there was some sort of abuse growing up? Anything like that?

MT

I am astounded by your post. I feel like you are telling the story of my life. so clearly have I felt all that you are going through. please know that your words and emotions are moving to me. I have only been in this 3 months, I have no idea how you have done this for a year. You truly are a strong person. my WS has also had social anxiety disorder and for the past 15yrs we have been together she feels "cured" ie, no panic attacks. but really she has just learned to live and I have allowed her to live in a familiar environment, we always go to the same restaurants and such.

she has always felt her disorder was under control, and attributed that success to the presence of me in her life, I have always felt uneasy about this for the obvious reasons. it truly is not of my control. though I have to admit I did feel wonderful thinking that I was the answer to her prayers.

"I have allowed myself to be responsible for easing my W's negative emotions and often do things for her to give her a quick fix for her emotions (which become the immediate problem) rather than allowing her to see these negative emotions as consequences of her irrational beliefs and philosophies. "

I have been trying to detatch and let my WS deal with her own personal issues, but I have great guilt in regards to that. Now at the time when she is stuggling the most, I am standing by watching her go up in flames. so hard to watch the one you love destroy themselves. I am now letting her own her consequences, but I feel like I am watching my own child. I have done so much for her, she doesn't know how to do for herself. and its like watching your child learn to walk, you know thay have to fall , yet you want to badly to catch them. If you really love them though. you have to step back.

you have given your W everything you have in your soul. she is so lucky to have someone so resilient in her corner. she may never know it, but you will. you will know that you gave your heart and soul and more to your M and will never have those regrets. I hope I can be as strong as you are and show my WS the same devotion

Thanks for your post, fightingback. It's good to know that I'm not alone in my situation. Sometimes I get to feeling that I'm a bit crazy for seeing things the way I do - but it's exactly that self doubt that allows me to question my own answers and move forward constructively and positively in my own life. I have "Codependant No More" on my list, and it's good to know that you're finding it helpful.

W wasn't a victim of abuse growing up - she was spanked, but that's about it. Her mother, however, is a bit of a different story. She lost her mother when she was a baby and grew up with abuse. Her father then abandonded her and her siblings in an orphanage when they were fairly young. Needless to say she had a pretty rough time of it. A little later in her life she became very religious and she met my FIL.

They married young and became missionaries - taking my W with them to the mission field when she was about 10. So her mother never had a real role model for what a good mother was - and her foster mother, who she holds in high regard, is not "hers" so she doesn't relate to her the way one would their own blood. Consequently, she resented my W as a child and my W often talks about how she felt the roles were reversed - she was parenting her mother. When her mother divorced her father, she had to comfort her mother rather than the other way around.

Even today, her mother doesn't seem to have matured. She drinks to the point of throwing up with the "kids" (her step kids - and son) and smokes pot and lives a rather frivolous life. Unfortunately, her initial reaction to my W telling her about the affair was to admit her own. Now, I have little reason to doubt that she's validating my W's opinions about how I'm to blame for the failure of the relationship. However, it seems to me that she's just justifying her own philosophy of running away rather than solving problems or control and power being more important than mutual happiness. She often resorts to tactics to gain power by threatening to end the relationship.

So, my W is in just as poor a position as her mother in that she doesn't have a good role model for motherhood either. She does have a role model though, and I notice that she's doing some of the very things that she resents her mother for doing to her to our son, namely resenting him and any claim he has for her attention and time.

All of this doesn't bode well for our situation - in looking to statistics, there are many strikes against the survival of our marriage (parents' divorce, validation of A by people close to her, age of marriage, not being a religious couple, etc). This information is somewhat beneficial, because I know that the odds aren't good - so I have little to nothing to lose in really trying. I can give it my best shot without concern that I'm going to mess things up. It will turn out how it's meant to. I am charged with doing my best to be my best and do my best, not making this work. I do have faith that I will ultimately be in a position to decide whether or not I want to continue the relationship.

I think detachment is the one essential achievement in this process. It is the only way we can explore ourselves and the situation without being defensive or anxious or further contributing to the death of the relationship. It allows us to focus on what we really do have control over and making it happen, and we empower the only person with the ability to make the changes that will work by stepping back.

I have and continue to give to my W. I have always maintained an attitude of compassion, even though she might not see it. I do hope that at some point she does see this and my sincere devotion to her and our life together.

very odd that my WS feels the exact same way about her mother. Her mother left them when my WS was only 16 yrs old. and throughout her life my WS has always lead the family, she has 2 younger brothers who always look to her for guidance. her mother even gets jealous because the boys always look to WS. Her father was an alcoholic but WS doesn't recall living in a volatile home. the thing that sticks with her is that her mother left. I think this weighs on her mind because she is fullfilling both of her parents prophecy's. her father cheated, her mother left. she still holds much resentment toward her mother for it.

anyway, I know all the trials she has to deal with, I just wish she would start to deal with them and stop escaping into her A. again, out of my control.

also, she is having panic attacks regularly, and it is so hard to watch without jumpimg to the rescue. I guess maybe she will have to work this through with my loving detatchment.

and yes the book is helpful, mostly because it hits the nail on the head. and validation is so important to me. you are not alone. keep fighting the good fight.

talking to you makes me realize how much my WS actually has had to deal with in life and affords me a little more patience in dealing with her. compassion is not easy but it is necessary if we truly wish to practice this "til death do us part" mantra It is so easy to forget those comittments in times of pain. but I believed them then, and I do believe now. thanks for sharing

MT and FB...I hope this helps a little...


These are the detail that I was searching for...LOL

When you said that your W was afraid to go out in public it really triggers me. I have startedgoing to AL-anon to learn that my childhood did in fact leave lasting effects on me.

My mother was not affection and MOF, my senior year in high year, my mother in not so many words said that she was jealous of me. There were few hugs and kisses in my house. My SD was an alcholic.

One night, at a meeting, my sponsor was talking about how she was afraid to go out an check the mailbox b/c others might see her! LMAO...lightbulb moment for me! LMAO

For years, I would go outside and if a neighbor or someone saw me I would rush back into the house. I was afraid to go places even though I REALLY wanted to go, but I was afraid that I wouldn't know anyone or people would judge me. I was always trying to do things perfectly so that others would respect and think highly of me. On the inside, I felt like a nobody...I was DH's wife, YS and OS's mom...but I wasn't Rin...

I pretty much took care of myself from the age of 9. My M and SD were into drugs, still are for that fact. I had to learn to separate myself from them and I did that by getting my education and going away for college. I met DH and they hated him, he's black, I'm white...old school...their choice...that was fine...

Sd and mom didn't come to my graduation because they didn't want to socialize with "THOSE kind of people"...I felt that they were worst than "THOSE kind of people"...I was the first in the family to graduate college and that's what I got...

Needless to say, no matter how bad I was treated I still looked for their approval...love...acceptance...

Come to find out, I projected that onto other people...wanting their approval, love...acceptance...but no matter what I did, I thought OP didn't like me or I was just plain uncomfortable around them...

It took me awhile to figure out that I was good enough...I just had to accept myself, love myself, approve of myself...I was looking for that validation from the outside rather than from within...

Some REALLY great People helped me learn that here... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> LMAO...

No matter what DH did, it wasn't good enough...becuase I felt not good enough. I'm sorry to say and of course this IJMHO, but until your WW approves of herself...I don't see a change being made...I had to hit rock bottom with DH's A to see anything...b/c I was right and he was wrong...

I didn't respect him a whole lot before his A to be honest...I really hated him sometimes...and sure didn't want to be around him...

I don't know if any of this helps but I wanted to let you know that I can relate to your wife. Each day that goes by, I'm a little more better, I actually enjoy meeting knew people now...still a little standoffish...my trust issues...abandonment, etc. LMAO <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

But the world is brighter...newer...seems to me like I tackle it like a little kid seeing Santa...not so much stress and anxiety! WHOA! More free...less jailed...

Oh, one more thing, I knew that I want to change years ago, but I didn't know how and I didn't have the tools at the time...I was very angry...I could have easily been one of those abusive mother that created multi-personality kids...LMAO

I'm sorry that probably wasn't funny...but I did know that wasn't the way...

Well, best news is that I haven't yelled and have been relating better with the kids for ....eight months now...or so...

I hugs them...listen to them...we play together...

Point is People can change...there's light at the end of your tunnel...I'm SOOO grateful to my DH for hanging in there for me...one day I wish you the same with your WW!

You are amazing and inspiring to me...

LMAO...now, just watch out for that enabling! K?

Rinder,

Your post really resonates with me. I know much of what my W throws at me is projection, and the disrespect I get from her is an expression of the lack of respect she has for herself. She is also constantly telling me that I'm condescending and that I make her feel like she's a little child. Of course, I don't have this intention, and I also believe that I'm no better than she is, we're just in different places and have different life experience. She feels worse, lesser, so I must be making her feel this way.

She has said fairly recently that she's nobody, except for my W. Being my W makes her someone. She constantly finds reasons to avoid doing things - usually blaming other people for making her feel bad (i.e., she doesn't like to take our S to school because the snooty people will look down on her).

I know that you're right about my W being the one that needs to change her perception of herself before she can even be in a good relationship. Her perfectionism is one of the things that spills out into our relationship so much because she can't be comfortable in the world unless she's unassailable. So my comfort with being imperfect - my acceptance of myself and everyone else for being imperfect threatens her. She criticizes everyone (and her mother is her greatest ally in this - in the beginning she and I would talk, and while I was always looking for an opportunity for me to change and improve for the sake of the relationship, her mother would tear her down and criticize her as a person - not just looking at her actions the way I was, but making character statements about her).

I continue to be patient - but the enabling line is difficult to see. It's hard for me to understand where I'm doing this and where I'm not - I'm no psychologist - but I am making significant progress in my understanding. I was in denial for a sizable portion of our relationship of just how badly off my W was. This was partly because she didn't share honestly, and partly because of issues in my own childhood that prevented me from seeing red flags for what they were.

It's good to be validated, or course, but it has to come from within. Hitting a sort of rock bottom myself due to this crisis has been instrumental in my reliance on my own wisdom and validation. Counter-acting the self-esteem crush that is easily created as a result of the betrayal was a huge lesson in the power of thought management and will over emotions.

Thank you for sharing.

Well, I have to Thank you and FB...for sharing your own stories...it's always good to know that there are Op out there fighting the same thing that I am/have...

I JUST needed to let you know that you are doing the right thing and I understand how great your pain is...having lived that also...

Not only did I have the problem that I spoke about but I became a doormat also...agreeing to things that I didn't even want...allowing myself to be walked on...consumed...

Being the poeple pleaser I was...but raging inside all the while...when I say that I have come along way...MAN...I've climbed that mountain...

I see my faults...not all of them b/c I believe that God doesn't give us more than we can handle and in time he will reveal more to me...I thought that I need to work on being more respectful...less judgemental...

My DH was the one yelling that I was the one treating him like a child...somehow I felt inferior to him but at the same time superior to him...I thought I was smarter than him...to be honest...

I was a CA, and I'm still working on not enabling...very hard part...I use to do everything...plumbing, electrical, pay the bills, cook, clean, disciple the kids...you name it, cut the grass...whatever needed to be done...now, I'm having to teach myself to sit back...relax...breathe...

LA asked me one time "What has a hurry ever got you?" I didn't understand really at the time, but it once got me worked up, frustrated, and angry but I felt that I had sooooo much to do and not evnough time to do it.

DH would say ask for help when you need it, and sometimes I would, but then it wasn't does when "I" wanted it done...so I would do it anyway...now, it just doesn't get done...and so what...LMAO

YOU, my sir, are in a wonderful place...your WW is very blessed to have you... I would be so lucky, if my DH were in your shoes...knowing what you know...gaining that wisdom...

At least we are at a point now where we can just be...I think that's important for us right now...just being together, no R talk, no M talk...we are working on trust and feeling safe to express our thoughts with each other...

Soon enough it will come...at the right moment...

I'm blessed to be able to speak with you...you ARE an inspiration! Thank you for being YOU! It's an honor to know YOU! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for your kind words.

Last night, things took an interesting turn. I stayed in to do some work on the christmas presents we are making. I got our son to bed and went out to the garage to do some work. A little later I went to the gym. When I came out and got in the car there was a voicemail from W asking me to call her. She sounded distant, a little upset but more distant. I called her and she asked me to pick up some food for her - she had declined sharing some leftovers with me earlier and didn't eat. I was really ambivalent about it, but I felt bad - and she sounded like she was feeling really bad too, so I agreed. I told her she sounded down and asked her if she'd like to talk about it. She told me that she didn't, and that it wasn't me, that she wasn't talking to anyone about it, not even her therapist.

I am not really sure about how I feel about the fact that I did this because it does sort of protect W from the consequences of her decision to turn her nose up at the leftovers, and the fact that I felt the need to rescue her from her bad feelings, but I wanted to eat too. When I brought the food back she asked me to sit down on the bed with her and eat. She thanked me a couple of times, really sincerely, and even leaned on me a bit. This is the same person who has been really trying to put a huge amount of space between us and recoils at any physical contact. Once we finished eating, I told her that I had to go shopping, and she asked me if I would eat ice cream with her when I got back. Then she asked me to pass her her bag so she could take some more xanax.

I thought a bit about things in the store - about how I wasn't really maintaining my position of not being her crutch. I am really ambivalent about this because of course I can't help wondering about whether the cause of her stress and pain right now is the crumbling or end of her relationship with OM. Of course I don't know, and I shouldn't even give any weight to this thought, but it's natural to on some level. But she also talked a bit about her conversation with her therapist about how she can only focus on the negatives, she even finds negatives in all the positive changes in her life of late. So I decided that I would not sit close to her when I returned - that I would maintain some distance both to avoid doormat status and to avoid my feelings of attachment and subsequent pain that usually comes from it.

So I came back and we had our ice cream - I sat on the chair while she lay in bed. I think it made an impact on the both of us. I wasn't trying to take from her to satisfy my own desire for closeness, and I wasn't letting her do that either. But I was there for her, and she knew that. It's a really tough line.

Rinder, your point of view is valuable.

I agree with MT in the fact that I diminished the severity of the individual problems my WS had to deal with. I was so concerned with loving unconditionally, always accepting people for who they are, never demanding change even when it meant unhappiness for myself. WS has never mentioned it, but I am certain she has felt like a child. I feel like I have done her a disservice and taken away all possibility of her to function without me.

I have been in control of her life. and thus, she has never been able to take the reins and direct the course for herself. while I don't take responsibility for her personal issues, I do have to realize that not only was I not helping her, but I was preventing her own self actualization and growth.


as far as judgment goes, my WS has serious issues. the criticism is actually widely accepted in her family, and always articulated in a comedic fashion. my WS father started the trend and all of her siblings continue the same destructive communication style. when all three are together it is much like a three ring circus, with jabs going to and fro. the sad part is, I have engaged in the banter myself, knowing how destructive it is. but when you are berated continually you start to respond in kind. when someone gets hurt feelings, they always respond with a resounding "we were just kidding." this twist is a finely perfected mode of communication for them.

it really bothers me when this criticism turns now onto our children. it is mild in nature, but I can see the writing on the wall. I want so desperately to protect them from their own mother, and I do vehemently. I berate them for their behavior, and mostly get the brush off as if I don't have a sense of humor. but there is no way to prevent it and I never have taken a real stand. as I write this and read it in print, I am disgusted that I have allowed my children to be affected by this. I cannot protect them from their own mother. until WS sees the destructive nature of her comments nothing will change. that change has to come from within.

another mode of operation of my WS is her drive to attain material items. she is always looking for bigger, better, best in all aspects of her life. I actually think that this is part of her ambition to become a lawyer. power, money, status. she is fixated on the type of cars people drive, looking for a larger house, 3 car garage. wants a mercedes, flat screen TV, tennis court in the back yard. and she is enamored with those who possess such things. (OP is not indep wealthy, but has all the toys, travels in powerful social circles, in Law school with WS and drives a BMW),this is definately part of the draw of OP, "OP wants the same things as me, we can relate so well"

I have struggled with her desires and questioned myself about a difference in values between us. I have never been one to be materialistic, and while I think a mercedes is nice, may never have the interest to own one. the more I process these facts, I realize that WS desire to "look good" on the outside comes from a feeling of "not worth it" on the inside. I only hope she will realize sooner rather than later that she is worth all of those things but doesn't need it to be happy.

evaluation of our life under this microscope is so neccessary, yet very painful. I am actally glad for the opportunity to improve myself, and I see that even though my WS has no clue how to repair herself, at least I believe she is aware that there is a problem. that is a step in the right direction.

thank you both for sharing, and know that allowing me to work this through in a supportive environment is like a lifeline.

I think quite often having an affair is the first step towards personal recovery of the WS in a situation like this. They recognize their unhappiness and take a step towards happiness on their own. It's destructive, miscalculated, clumsy, ill-fated - but it is something they control. I know it still ignores the fact that happiness can't be given to you by another, but the paradoxical truth is still there. They are taking it upon themselves to find happiness in another!

The materialism you talk about is something that exists in our culture, and it likely won't change. It's part of the love vs. excitement issue, and I wouldn't be surprise if many if not all of the WSs sway more towards materialism in their personal philosophy. I think this is the philosphy adopted by most people in a midlife crisis - the attempt to fill a void with stuff.

As for your children - I would try and take a step back. All the protecting can cause it's own problems. Remember, what you perceive as bad in another is simply a part of yourself you don't like so much. Address that and you will provide your children with a model for how to address the issues within themselves that are a product of the bad influences you are reacting to now.

MT
dead on,
I am finally seeing that this A has been coming for some time. I agree that this A is a sign of WS admitting to herself that something hasn't been right. and the A is an ACTION that she has taken to try to restore the balance in her life. great viewpoint. I am one for silver linings and after watching the behavior I have judged as destructive to our relationship, I am arriving at the conclusion that it has been necessary, actually even vital to WS's journey through this portion of her life.

Yet another realization is that while I am missing my WS and am ready, oh so ready to fix things, WS is no where near ready for anything as far as M goes. It is a test of my resolve to remain confident in myself and the foundation we have built behind us despite the unhealthy state our M was in. I comfort myself by remembering that to actually give unconditionally, we, as individuals need to possess a sense of self. and now my WS is attempting to "find that self" that she has been missing.

I, too have a difficult time with boundaries, and have found myself clinging to any physical intimacy for my own personal comfort. and I, too have been fooled by this desire. I am doing better though. tuesday night WS was having panic attack, and when I came home from work, I found her in my bed.(she has been relegated to the couch in the den) this is not the first time she has come up to sleep, cuddle all night for her own security. Before I would just enjoy the closeness recieving what I needed and felt good helping her, but this night was different. I had trouble sleeping, felt used, and knew from previous cycles that she would be seeing OP the next day, and I would be angry at myself. when we woke, rather than just forget it. I told her how I felt, not angry, just straightforward.
I said I felt used, that she wanted me only for her own comfort and that It didn't seem fair to me. this may not seem like much, but it is a step, a serious step for me in removing myself from doormat status.

I like that you found a way to provide some security for her, yet preserve some respect for yourself. I have often found myself standing on that exact line, especially in the whole MB plan A context. each day presents unique situations and the only way to tackle it is one step at a time. Great job with that one!!!!!!!!!!
I mean that sincerely, it is emotionally and mentally exhausting having to analyze every move, and every interaction with our WS's. Kudo's

Hi, guys...It's been an interesting day for me...I wanted to let you know that I've been busy today and that I wasn't ignoring you both...

MT-You're are very welcome, I speak the MY truth...LMAO

FB-Thank you, I'm glad that my POV can help...

I can say that I DON'T feel that my FWH respects me...I have done everything from paying the bills, to repairing the house, caring for the kids, all the shopping, cutting the grass...etc...

All he's had to do is come home, eat, watch tv, have SF, and go to work...

I was talking with a friend of mine in a different city and she was saying that she didn't feel that FWH respected me when we met three years ago. SHe said that she was very happy to see me standing up for myself and not backing down...

A cry for help in my case? I'm not sure...

What I can say is that I'm very happy to have you guys in my life to gain a greater understanding of how I need to be and what's acceptable behavior when OP address me...

Thank you...I have faith that you both will do well... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />