any ideas are welcome ceg/

MT, maybe your thoughts are clear about your intentions, but don't forget that she may be unaware of what goes on in your head. I think you are very centered, but perhaps your actions don't always convey that. ??? maybe a STgoal could be to unify what you feel with how you act, remembering that she is judging you by your actions, not your intentions.

I agree that she is not ready to move on, which is good news for your marriage. I struggle with the same concept of "how much of this garbage can I tolerate?? and Is this situation helping anyone" ie: does your WS have any more clarity about her choices than she did say in the beginning. you seem very strong, but I have to say honestly I don't want to be here in limbo for the next 10 months- year.

"You are sorry that I am feeling the way I am, but you never take responsibility for making me feel the way I do."

you need to redirect her on this.
MT "I am responsible for my actions and feelings, but you are responsible for the way you feel. I am sincere in my regard for you, but only you can define what your issues are and how you are going to address them. I can support you in a way that you need, but only if you tell me what that entails." she is deflecting her issues to you.

remember that being aware of how you respond is the first step in changing it. have a conversation with her in your head, and practice how you will respond next time.

BTW tantrums should not be tolerated. how would you deal with that behavior from a toddler or school age child. do not respond when she acts like that. when she sees that she doesn't get the response she desires, she will halt that behavior. gosh, she is controlling. whew! when she gets out of control, you need to remove yourself. get as far away as you can.

my therapist told me that in this sitch, by not making any decisions, my WS is actually maintaining control over the situation. she wont go, yet says she can't stay, the no decision IS a decision. a decision to remain planted until she sees the way out. but how do we as BS's help to clear the field???? I haven't yet figured that one out.

does your wife have anything that makes her happy? she sounds like she is drowning. any interests, any activities?

OH, and forgive my ignorance, what is FOO??

MT
if you plan B are you going to let her stay, or are you going to show her the door? is it possible for you find someone to stay with the kids?? You are the centered one, the one with your family's interest at heart. your kids would be better served if you remained the head of the house. IMHO

I'm not sure - I guess that I didn't read her response with enough compassion - I allowed myself to be swayed by the fear inspired by her anger, and saw the anger, not the hurt or fear in her. I guess I really didn't try hard enough to understand where she was coming from in response to my email.


It may have - but ultimately she regards any explaining I do as excuses for my actions, not reasons. This isn't any excuse for not communicating, however, and I often do try and clear things up. This often leads to more hurt feelings as she feels that I'm critical of her for misunderstanding or she gets defensive.

She has gotten the idea in her head that because I love her and want to work things out I should be trying to prove my love to her - make her feel warm, secure, loved - etc. She's often angry at the perceived inconsistency between my loving her and my lack of grovelling or serving her. I have not directly asked her this question of late, and maybe I should.

I didn't copy anyone.

This is something that I'm aware of - BUT due to her controlling, I tend to be skeptical of feedback I get from her regarding how my actions come across. I have come to the conclusion that I will act in accordance with my desire for my character - not with the intention of changing actions or feelings of another. Really get centered and have my actions reflect my intentions from my perspective.

The trouble here is that she has pointed out on many occasions that "there's a cause and effect situation here - your actions cause my feelings." She doesn't buy into her feelings being influenced by her internal environment. We had this discussion before the A, I talked about how our feelings don't always reflect the world, rather they are influenced by our reactions to the world, associations with past events, beliefs, etc. She disagreed. She thought feelings were pure responses to stimuli in the world. No budging there - and that's the basic premise in our understanding of the world.

I do this sometimes - and I do experiment as well. It seems that she's so intent on finding fault with me that it doesn't matter what I do - just that I do - she'll find some fault. I just need to get my fear in check. My greatest fear based actions are responses to her displaying negative emotions and avoiding doing or saying something that would bring such about.

This is what I have done - shut down any conversation that goes there, don't give in or otherwise reward such behavior. In fact, the last time she acted out like this (she wanted me to agree to letting her go see my cousin - OM) and escalated her tantrum to the point of hitting me in front of our son, I imposed the consequence of sending an email to her parents. Her mother and stepfather came over and had a talk with us (in response to my request) to try and talk things out and try and get some ground rules down. The most rediculous thing I heard was her mother looking to me trying to figure out how I can act differently to prevent WW from getting this angry - not a word to her about her actions and how inappropriate they were. Since this event she has kept her anger under control.

By setting our boundaries and moving on at some point. Having a predetermined out enables us to get our heads straight and move on beyond the point where our WSs get the satisfaction of being able to control us. It builds our self-respect and that of the WS because we our life is more important than begging for the love of our WS.

Yes she does, she has been doing a lot of craft stuff recently and has taken an interest in cooking. In fact it seems that she's doing more along these lines than working to get independant. I think it's great, but in the context of a committed relationship. It's a not really responsible in the current context.

Family of origin.

From the little dialogue you've posted between the two of you, I see fear in her replies to you. I see her feeling rejected by you.

When you asked her what she wanted from the store...she had been at home feeling uncared for by you b/c you ate her cereal. Putting aside her reasoning, and her LBs...I believe you would have done well to simply acknowledge her feelings.

When you repeated your question, asking her what she needed from the store...I saw her continue to express her desire to be known and cared for by you.



Why look at it as explaining?

Why not view it as SHARING.

...trying to connect w/ her.



In other words she wants you to love her?

To meet her ENs?

To connect w/ her?

Aren't those good things?

In an earlier post you said you knew she wanted to be held by you. You said you WANTED to hold her...what I didn't understand was why you chose not to hold her.

Why not connect w/ her in this way?

Muddle,

How does your WW continue her A?

Is it via the phone? Computer?

Is there any way you can cut off her communication w/ OM?

~ Marsh

I think you may be right - I am not sure I was receptive to her in a loving way. I think I saw the situation through a paradigm that precluded my seeing the feelings she was trying to communicate. I also see her desire to be cared for - but I'm not sure it's me she wants to be cared for by. I have to work harder at mirroring her feelings. I have allowed myself to act on my assumptions without getting her clarification.

Point taken. The connection is more important than anything else.

They are - but she doesn't see it this way right now. I'm not sure if I (and consequently we) am just reading this into her actions or if it's truly how she feels deep down.

This has a lot to do with my smothering. I am aware that I do it and want to stop - and I also know that physical touch right now pushes her away. She doesn't want to be touched. In that particular instance, when she's upset and vulnerable, she wants to be comforted (she's even said to me that I am only nice to her when she's upset, but in my reality that's the only time she's receptive to my kindness). In the sitch you mentioned, I did put my arm around her and hold her - but I made a point of being the one to end the contact, to get up and move on to the next item on the agenda. I do connect with her when I have the chance - but I am also addressing an issue I have with being too available. It's a hard line to walk.

Computer and phone. I'm sure she'd find another way to continue. I have always believed that the only way out of this is for her to make the decision herself to end it. Something she has vowed never to do. If this belief costs me my marriage, I'm willing to take this risk. In my opinion, if she doesn't make the decision then she's unwilling to face her own destructive behavior. She's maintaining this position of needing to be rescued from herself. She will never force herself into maturity. I want an equal for a partner, and while I a have a tremendous amount of patience, tolerance and faith in her, I think this is a truly life-defining situation. The way she decides to play this out will be a part of her life forever, and it will be a decision that she continues to justify as long as she lives. Her mother still justifies her own affair through supporting and justifying my WW's.

Maybe this is too hard a line, but it's where I am right now. Thanks for your valuable insight.

MT
has your WW every talked about getting a job? would it be pssible for you both to work and pay childcare and stay in your home?? has your WW made any attempts at change?? not personally, I mean as far as living arrangements. does she expect that you will support her for life?? I have been reading "love must be tough" by Dobson. and in it he refers to the fact that sometimes only a crisis can precipitate change. that crisis doesn't have to be huge, but in proportion any change in her existence could be a catylist for movement. Yes, you need to meet her EN's, but if she has no motivation to make any decisions, will she ever? simply getting a job could do much for her self esteem, and may be something that could direct her focus onto herself, thus providing direction for her wanting to change. ??? just some thoughts.

another thought.
I can't believe her mother supports her in this. she seems very comfortable in the fog, and having her M in her corner is all the rationalization she needs. is anyone putting pressure on her? other family members??? have you talked to her M about it?

I began to switch my focus from "this is just wrong, you need to stop" to "if this is what you want, that's fine, but then you have to go." I have a close friend who also puts pressure by agreeing with WS "yes I accept that this is what you want, but you need to do the right thing and be respectful and make plans to leave."

my WS is unemployed at the time(full time Law school)
and I have given her until Jan 1st to get a job. she screamed " our agreement was that you would support me through Law school" and my response?? " yes and we agreed also to be faithful" essentially "all bets are off" its a whole new game, you have to find out how your game has changed. and change the way you play it accordingly.
My WS will now have to deal with FT work, and FT law school. she is not looking forward to it, and has been dragging her feet in finding a job. btw her prior career was nursing, and she could find a crappy job anywhere. she wont/ good news for me??? I guess we will have to see.

Yes - this is something that I have said from the start. I think a lot of her unhappiness in general that she projects onto the marriage comes from her lack of fulfillment in her self. I have always felt that working would help her feel more productive and more capable. About 6 months ago when she talked about wanting to move out, she talked about getting a job - and I told her that I would hold off any separation talk until she was on her feet. Part of this had to do with the idea that if she were to do more she would be happier with herself and her life and therefore might gain a new perspective on the marriage. The other part is that I don't want to turn my back on her while she can't stand on her own - but then I'm remaining the crutch that she would be better off without.

She did do some looking - basically flipping through the classifieds - and I think she's applied to one position in this time. I have told her that I would support her efforts and that we can work together to find solutions for any obstacles. She keeps telling me that those are just words, that if I really supported her I would do something for her. Not sure what I can do - but I've told her that she has my word that I'll help her, all she needs to do is tell me what she'd like me to do to help.

As far as living arrangements go, she's moved downstairs to our family room. There's a bed there and she's moved all her things down there too. This was after she came back from a week spent with my cousin. This is when the ambivalence stopped. She told me that they were meant for each other. Yet our marriage is over for other reasons. Uh-huh.

I have always been relatively flexible about childcare. I know it's an expense and it might nullify any additional income my W brings in, but to me, the benefits of her getting out in the world, getting a sense of accomplishment, having more adult contact, etc, make it worth it. She, however, insists that it's best for our son that she be home. I agree with her to an extent. But then she uses the argument that she's stuck at home and I'm forcing her to stay locked up in this prison. She's choosing to be there because it's best for our son - and even when we sat down and talked about moving towards a separation, she insisted that she didn't want to leave our son in daycare or get a babysitter. So she wants independance but I think she's deathly afraid of it so she comes up with reasons to prevent herself from doing what needs doing. She's very trapped by her fears, and she keeps building the walls with all her thoughts and lack of action. It's a wonder that she would rather spend her days in this romantic escape than face her fear and conquer it, isn't it (end sarcasm).

I have often wondered whether plan b is really what it will take to force her beyond this.

maybe a full plan B isn't necessary, you have really been supportive and let her take the lead, but perhaps she needs some boundaries, what is it that she absolutely has to do??? other than sleep downstairs???

what boundaries have you set??? I am not hearing any, isn't plan A supposed to have 2 parts?? the stick and the carrot? where is your stick????? what has she had to do as a result of her A. stop defending yourself against her accusations and make her responsible for her actions. she is playing the victim, she needs to take responsibility for her A. show her a consequence, any consequence(not neccessarily a full plan B), and you my see some incremental change.

just a few thought.

I don't know for certain how much support she's getting from her mother, but I do know that she used to talk to me and stopped and has since got a guilty look in her eye when I see her. This change happened once my W got back from this trip and her mother said something like "well, I guess she's made her decision." I think she feels that it's more important to be close to her daughter than to stand for the marriage. Of course the only way to be close to her is to agree with her 100% and support her. So, no pressure from her now. In fact it's more like a lot of sympathy and loving indulgence. She's spending tons of money on her and taking her out. I guess it's better than shunning her, but I think a mature person can support her without approving of her actions. Oh well.

Her father and step mother still support me, but I'm not sure how much pressure they are applying. I'm not sure that pressure would help much in her case because she's got such a propensity to run to escape her feelings and project them onto others and play the victim. My aunt and uncle have been applying pressure on the other end, and from what I've heard through the grapevine, my cousin is very "critical" of my W. I guess he's trying to save her. Perhaps the pressure will work better on his end. However, I have this sense that he positions himself as a good supportive guy who's providing emotional support to a lost, hurting woman who's trying to get out of a bad situation.

MT

"The other part is that I don't want to turn my back on her while she can't stand on her own - but then I'm remaining the crutch that she would be better off without."

"She keeps telling me that those are just words, that if I really supported her I would do something for her. Not sure what I can do - but I've told her that she has my word that I'll help her, all she needs to do is tell me what she'd like me to do to help."

It doesn't sound like you believe she can stand on her own 2 feet. if you do, you are not showing her that by your actions. stop helping her, stop saying you will do anything for her, start believing in her. and tell her that you believe in her over and over. If you don't think she can do it, then she won't believe it either. tell her that you know it is scary, but you do believe that she can do these things and do them well. and here is a big point. she CAN do things without you. as in ON HER OWN. tell her that, and she may start to believe it herself. stop trying to do so much for her. she needs to rely on herself now, and know that she will be alright. the question is, can you stop being the crutch? refocus time and energy on yourself, your child. again JMHO

I need to give this a little more thought. I haven't been using my boundaries as a way of creating consequences for her. They have been more about what I'm willing to tolerate and plans for protecting myself - and I've taken far less crap from her. I think this shows.

She's not a child - and if I need to use boundaries to control her behavior like I would with a child, there's not a whole lot to the marriage, is there? She knows she acts immaturely. She so often accuses me of making her feel like a child - often because I do the right thing and this makes it ever more clear that she's not. But then I'm to blame for these feelings, rather than her recognizing that these are constructive and healthy negative feelings that should motivate her to do the right thing and feel better about herself.

I have conflicting thoughts about plan b myself. Sometimes I think it's essential, others I think I can accomplish the same things without the break. But she has told me that the only way she could come back to our relationship is if we had a break - if she had to make the real choice. I think if we continue to drag things out the way they are going it's just a matter of time before the affair dies. Then she's still here because she has nowhere to go, and she's unable to go. She hasn't made the choice. That choice is important to me too, because recovery starts with re-commitment. That's not there without that choice being made. She's just continuing to use me.

I do believe in her and I do tell her this too. I know she can do things without my help - but I think the only way she will know this is to do it for herself. I fully recognize that if I keep helping (as in doing things for her) I'm preventing her from having this experience, so I don't do unless I'm asked to. However, there are things that need to get done that won't get done otherwise. I have been focusing a lot more on myself, at the expense of appearing self centered (which I think is healthy and necessary to have a healthy relationship). I know she's struggling with some things, and I'd like to be someone that she can count on for support - not to do for her to help her avoid feeling bad, but rather a partner to get through the tough stuff with. If someone uses a crutch, only they can decide not to use it. If you take it away, there's always something else they can prop themselves up with.

If she weren't complaining about your e-mail, lack of knowing her, ect...then I'd say you had a point.



I think deep down there's a great deal of fear in your WW.

I choose to believe that people are always longing to connect w/ others.



Interesting.

Would you consider that the only time you feel safe to express your feelings to her is when she's being open and vulnerable to you?

I doubt your WW is speaking only of the physical touching that occurs during these comforting times, but is probably speaking to the over all tenderness and care she receives from you.

Sounds as though she's asking for more of THAT from you.



Would you consider the possibility that she does need your help in ending this A?

If she had a drug addiction would you take the same postion?

Or would you cut off her drug supply?


I'm shocked that you even had this conversation.

Why would she think it was an OK thing to ask you to support a trip to see OM in the first place?

Does she KNOW you don't condone the A?



If you were keeping your mind open about what the truth was, why did you tell your WW "he hadn't intended anything by his response to you."?

Why didn't you say, " He said , he hadn't intended anything by it."?

Isn't that a more honest statement?

Wouldn't that show more respect for your WW's feelings/beliefs?




Did you show concern for her feelings?



~ Marsh

"She's not a child - and if I need to use boundaries to control her behavior like I would with a child, there's not a whole lot to the marriage, is there? She knows she acts immaturely. She so often accuses me of making her feel like a child "

no she is not a child, but she feels like a child, does she say that to you often??? is there something in the way you interact, how you speak to her, that gives her this impression??? I would evaluate this. ask for her input. ask her to complete this sentence. "when you say...., do ...., then I feel....."

I don't suggest you use boundaries as a way of controlling her behavior, but more as taking a stand as you already said you are, let her feel the painful results of her actions naturally.

"If someone uses a crutch, only they can decide not to use it. If you take it away, there's always something else they can prop themselves up with."

you can't use something that is not there. but when you are dependent on something for so long, you don't believe you can live without it. and you would never give it up freely. when will she be able to stand with out that crutch?? only after some serious soul searching. you are such a patient man. she is lucky to have you. but do you want her to stay only because she needs you so much? I have considered the same question in regards to my WS. I don't have an answer.
\

"They have been more about what I'm willing to tolerate and plans for protecting myself - and I've taken far less crap from her. I think this shows."
what are some of the thing you have changed about yourself. this should speak volumes to her, is she responding to the changes???

I tend to think my W needs to accept and love herself. Any love she gets from outside gives her a temporary fix. I think she's caught between a rock and a hard place in that she feels like she can't move on with her life for many reasons, but I'm not able to care for her the way she thinks she needs to be. Should I learn to care for her more along the lines of how she thinks I should? Yes and no - I want to meet her needs, and I do my best, but we haven't sat down and figured out what they are. She told me that she didn't even know that she had the needs that I wasn't meeting until after she started exploring them in the affair. So I'm stuck playing a guessing game, seeing some needs and expectations of hers as unreasonable and misplaced - whether they are or not can only come out in an honest and open discussion of her needs, which she will not have with me.

And it's connecting I need to focus on. I think that a lot of the reason she's running is because she's afraid that the bigger risk is to stay.

I see your point here, but I'm not sure how to answer this. I think I'm very forthcoming with my feelings, but you're right, there has to be something coming from me at these times that is different and welcomed. I hate to say it, but I think at those times she's looking for fatherly comfort from me, and that's one of the things that she has an issue with me about - she thinks I really resemble her father in many ways.

I'm not sure how I would deal with this, and I'm not sure now how my attempts at directly controlling her would damage things. The only lasting change comes from within, right?

Yes, she knows I don't condone it. This conversation had more to do with me telling her that we would have to find a new place to live if she were to go because I would not live with her any longer. She was responding to me imposing consequences and issuing ultimatums rather than giving her approval to go.

Because I can be a klutz with my words sometimes. I often say things knowing I said the wrong thing. And W asked me the same thing, and I responded the same way - that he said that.

I thought I did, but this is an area where I need some work - I often have considerable difficulty expressing concern without the fix-it impulse. I was very careful not to invalidate her feelings and I also made it very clear that I thought her feelings were valid, and that I respected her point of view even if I didn't agree with it. I think you might have a point here.

Whenever this comes up, it seems that she is somewhat ashamed of what she has done. I can't see anything in the way I speak to her that would bring this out. It seems to me to be projection.

Agreed - and I'm constantly looking for places where I can stop enabling. I have done a lot in this regard. I have expected her to do things she wouldn't do and I have seen her do them. I have confidence in her that she doesn't have in herself. I don't want her to need me. I don't need to be needed. I think this is what a healthy relationship is all about - people choosing to be together rather than needing each other.

Personal changes or relationship changes?

I agree.



Everyone needs to connect w/ other people.

Whether they love and accept themselves are not.

It is a universal need to share and be intimate w/ others.



Do you know what needs the OM fill for her?

Do you read their emails, IM's?



Please don't assume this, Muddle.

She has told you she feels loved by you in those moments.

THAT seems to be a good place to focus on.

If she viewed your caring in those moments as a fatherly comfort she wouldn't welcome it as she does.




You have every right to decide that you don't want her comunicating w/ the OM in YOUR home.

If she chooses to continue the A, she is FREE to do so outside your home.

Are there measures you could take so she can't contact him at home?

When does she speak to him? When you're at work or whenever she feels like it?



Well, yes, but that doesn't mean that you can't do things in the real world that will cause alot of internal work to be done by your WW in her mind.


I do too.



To be agreed w/ FEELS accepting to your WW. When you don't agree w/ her, she feels rejected by you.

You need to really work hard at restraining that "fix it impulse" and express concern for her.

If you are able to do this successfully (and I know you can, b/c you do it in those moments of comfort) than it won't matter a smidge to her that you hold a different opinion than she does. B/c she will feel heard, cared for, and loved by you.

~ Marsh