Ok, here's where I'm being too critical. I'm projecting something that I struggle towards onto her as a necessity and I should do that (should I?). I think it's critical that I be internally motivated and that I not substitute external acceptance/love/approval for my own. It seems to me that my W's need for this goes beyond normal, and she's angry at me for not meeting her need. A need that no person could meet. This is not to say that I don't try, but it's difficult to give and give and never feel appreciated (isn't that something we all can relate to?). I have read 5 Love Languages, HN/HN, Mars/Venus, etc. and have done my best to size up my W and try and approach her needs differently, but I don't see much or any real difference no matter what my approach is. I'm sure that some of this is because of the affair and the fact that WW is motivated to see nothing but negatives in and from me. She subscribes to this notion that I should make her want to want me - I should make her feel like staying - I should make her feel like being a part of our family, of our household. Yet she talks about wanting equality. These two concepts conflict, in my mind, because if we're equals we are equally invested in our family, our household, etc., and we work to keep ourselves satisfied by communicating our needs and desires and letting the other know in a constructive way how these needs are/aren't being met. You can't be passively and actively involved in something at the same time.

It's the connecting part that's more important though - as you so wisely keep pointing out - and I need to work harder to effectively accept her bids for connection. I often mentally respond to her angry statements that I can't communicate with the thought that she isn't receptive - she doesn't try and understand what I am trying to tell her, rather she criticizes the words I use. Well, I think I do the same thing here - I misinterpret her attempts at connecting and respond by unknowingly rejecting her. Still not sure how or why. This is where I'm looking now.

We had a talk the other night in which W basically was going off on me telling me that it's my fault that we are where we are, my lack of communication (and the fact that we have these cyclical arguments where she feels I tell her something and then she badgers and badgers and criticizes and interprets something to the point where it seems like I'm saying the opposite) - but the big thing I got out of it (after a year of trying to figure out where I was really doing wrong and how I was causing her pain!) was that I respond to her sometimes with an attitude of "well, you did it to yourself" or that I just don't care. She thinks it's resentment from me and that it's been far more present since the affair. Interesting that I feel that our relationship is bad in that she wants me to be overly involved in her - that she ignores my boundaries and feels that she owns what belongs to me (and I have a feeling that I need to take it back because I can't give what I haven't got) and she feels that I am making the boundary line between us to strong, or rather to cold. I tend to think I'm a pretty diplomatic person, but this is one area where I really fall short. I don't know how to caringly address my W while enforcing my boundary. Maybe there's someone who can help me with this.

I have read enough to know that he's a yes-man - agreeing with her about most things, supporting her sense that "that's not the way things should be." I think the big draw for her is that he sees her differently than she sees herself. He allows her to see herself as someone not mired down by the problems in our life, and who doesn't need to change herself, but just clear the obstacles in her life. I think she feels a sense of acceptance from him (which is something I always thought I provided her with - and she always said that I let her be herself) and with him that she doesn't feel for herself in her current situation. Beyond that, I don't really know. I know he had a lot going on in his life and she struggled with that - often pouting and being angry that he didn't give her more attention. I think this might have something to do with it too, kind of a challenge. I gave up so much in my life to cater to her (no, not really a bitter statement) and the more I build my own life, the more anxiety this created in her. I think she struggled with this desire to be cared for, comforted and the opposite - wanting someone that had a life going that made time for her, made her feel important.

It's a loosely held belief - but I do believe it. I think that it's beneficial and natural to have this sort of regard for one's spouse. The trouble is that because her parents got divorced, she relates to her mother and says that the incompatabilities in her parents' relationship exist in ours because I resemble her father. So then the divorce of her parents has to be disputed - could they have worked things out? I think so - I think that people can work around considerable differences in character and personality through acceptance of the other person and agreeing to disagree. I think I read a statistic that something like 60% of the unresolved conflict in a marriage at the start remains in a good marriage decades later. It's not that the conflict exists, it's how you deal with it.
For the most part when I'm at work.
So what does one substitute for this? How can I proactively recondition myself to effectively demonstrate caring without fixing?

So, how do I approach this? If I agree with her just so that I don't reject her, I am not being true to myself. This may be one of those areas where she's right in her feeling that I'm just not the right person to be with her. These areas are going to exist in any relationship though.

So you direct me here to look to what has worked for me - my comfort when she's vulnerable to see what works for her. That would seem to sort of perpetuate this sense that I need to keep her down to keep her happy!?! I'm sure there's good stuff to find in this though. Thanks for your insight.

"It seems to me that my W's need for this goes beyond normal, and she's angry at me for not meeting her need. A need that no person could meet."

hey MT, you are probably right on this front. I have felt this dissatisfied by my WS many times. My problem with codependency is that I gave every ounce of my being, and fully expected an equal response of affection and attention from WS. but my degree of sacrifice was too great, no one could EVER satisfy me. plus I looked outside myself for cues to how I felt, (her projection onto you). the problem is, until recently I never realized or identified what I was doing was dysfunctional. until she identifies that her ways of relating, coping are unhealthy, she wont even see the problem. maybe she should read "codependent no more"???

about the Fix-it response, I too have the same problem. what has worked for me is evaluating my responses to every interaction, I have done this for every interaction, not just with my WS. kids crying, and fighting, patients at work(I am a nurse). I used to react immediately to everything. now I ask myself 1st to stop, I don't act or speak until I define what I am feeling and why. 2nd I ask myself "is this my problem??" ie: a close friend of our M has chosen sides, my side as it happens. this has devastated my WS. this person was her oldest and dearest friend and WS feels shut out. upon hearing my wife's displeasure, I immediately said "I will talk to her, don't worry" then I evaluated my response. #1 I am not responsible for this persons actions, she is. #2 I am not responsible for my WS being upset, she is. #3 I did not get involved. I let the matter go on with out trying to FIX IT. this seems so small, but it is empowering to me. also, I do not feel defeated after trying ti FIX something that I actually had no control of.

I agree w/ your belief that we can't fix ourselves by going outside ourselves.

But, don't let this belief stop you from reaching out to anyone, especially your W.

Connecting w/ someone is such a joy. Sharing w/ someone who you are. And having them share w/ you who they are.

I see you evaluating your WW more than loving her.

I want to ask, does your WW have to understand all (or some) of what you do in order to be loved and accepted by you?



Yes, I agree that this is healthy.

But, does this thinking lead to the belief that you don't need your WW's love or connection?

Does it lead to the belief that she doesn't need yours?



This is a DJ.

Your WW's needs are not normal???

Her need to be admired, appreciated, accepted...not normal???



Agreed.

Can you give/share and appreciate YOURSELF for the choice you're making to share?

You know, fill your own love bank by admiring your choice to share and reach out to another?



She's trying to connect w/ you daily, it's just that she doesn't always try to do it in a respectful/healthy way.

Look through her anger and see what's behind it.



You are BOTH trying to be understood by the other.

Why not choose to understand her first?

She wants you to understand HER.

...not clinically...but her essence.

Her person.







Is her anger triggering fears in you?



Right.

This is what I was getting too.

How loving is this approach?

How does it bring you closer to your WW?



Is she right?


Does she ask you to be 'overly involved' w/ her?

Or is that your interpretation of what she wants?



What do you mean?

How do you make a boundary too strong or cold?

Can you give me an example of a boundary you've made that she feels is too strong or cold?



How do you know how she sees herself?

Would it be more honest to say, "OM doesn't see her as YOU do."?


Does she feel accepted by you now?


Receiving attention feels being cared for, desired, appreciated.



Was it your building your own life that caused her anxiety?

Or was it something else?

Did you emotionally detach from her?



I agree.

The point I was trying to make was, not to w/hold affection from your WW when she wants it....needs it.

If certain things about you remind her of her father, so what???

That doesn't mean you should change who you are.

Nor does it mean you should refrain from loving her for fear she's going to make the connection again.

You reach out to her. You connect w/ her. You share w/ her. Not to make HER feel better about herself or you...but b/c you want and need to connect to her...a worthwhile, loving, beautiful, wonderous human being.

Share yourself.

B/c YOU are a worthwhile, loving, beautiful, wonderous human being.



Listen through her anger.

Repeat back to her what she's said to you, giving her a chance to clarify her thoughts, feelings, belief's.

Don't be afraid of her anger, look at it as the energy she needs in order to share w/ you her feelings/thoughts.

You don't have to accept her truth as yours, but listening and responding to her feelings is the healing balm she needs from you.

Respect

Don't try to change her beliefs.

Accept them as hers, w/o correcting.

Look for her pain and reach out to acknowledge it and understand it.

Let her know that her feelings are normal...even if you believe she assumed stuff that wasn't true to get them. Her feelings are reasonable considering what she believes.



No, you don't agree when you don't.

I was only trying to give you insight into her feelings.

She will never find a person who will agree w/ all her beliefs.

But, if you KNOW this is how your disagreeing w/ her feels, you can be sensitive to this.

And be sure that you find other ways of showing you accept her.

Communicating w/o judgement is one of the biggest ways.

Respecting her beliefs.

Here's a post I found on here about MIRRORING/VALIDATING/EMPATHIZING....

COMMUNICATION
Frozen1229's Guide to the MIRRORING/VALIDATING/EMPATHIZING Technique:


This communication technique is comprised of three elements -

mirroring/validating/empathizing

The net effect is that it offers an opportunity for both people to have the experience of being accurately heard, validated as worthwhile human beings, and bonded in empathy.

Mirroring - I am listening so carefully that I can mirror back to you what you've just said.

Validating - I affirm you and your right to have these feelings and hold these opinions.

Empathizing - I can enter into your world and feel what you are feeling.

Mirroring

1.) You recognize that you have something you want to share with your partner (it's best to start with something positive until the process begins to feel more natural, at which time you can use the technique to talk about concerns or frustrations).

2.) Begin by thanking your partner for his/her willingness to talk with you.

3.) State the essence of your message. Make it an "I" message and focus on what you see, think, hear, feel, or desire and then STOP.

4.) Your partner mirrors your message back. Mirroring, in this sense, means responding with an accurate paraphrase. If you find that difficult, you can start by mirroring the exact words. The goal is for your partner to repeat your communication without adding or subtracting anything else. When you are finished, your partner asks if the mirror was accurate.

5.) You say, "Yes, you got it" or "No, not quite." If the mirror was not accurate, you repeat your message once again. Your partner then attempts to mirror you again. Repeat Steps 3-5 until your partner mirrors you accurately.

6.) After confirmation that the mirror is accurate, your partner asks, "Is there more about that?" If so, you say it, and your partner mirrors your additional communication accurately. When the mirror is accurate and you have no more you want to say, your partner then says: "Let me see if I got all of that," and then he offers a summary of all he has heard. The summary reflects the substance of what you said, and avoids the tendency to simply respond to the last words we heard.

Validating

This part can be a little tricky. Most people think of validating as synonymous with agreeing. Whether you agree with what has been said or not doesn't matter. You are supporting the notion that "truth" is subjective, that every person is entitled to his or her own feelings and point of view, and that your perspective doesn't issue forth from the center of the universe.

Your partner has valid reasons for seeing the world as he or she does. It's not for you or anyone else to dismiss or demean these views or even try to change them.

Examples of validating statements:

- I get what you are saying, and you make sense.
- I can see how you would think about it that way.
- I absolutely see what you are saying and why.
It makes sense that you...
- I can see that you have given this plenty
of thought, and I can see what you are saying.
- I didn't know you thought about it like that,
but now that you tell me, I can see how that
makes sense.
- I want to understand you better and what you've
just said helps me enormously.

Empathizing

The empathetic message is:

You are not alone. Although I recognize that we are separate individuals, I can feel at least some of what you are feeling.

To get a sense of how important empathy is, imagine an interchange where your partner accurately mirrors you, and states your right to have your feelings, but is dead to any empathetic understanding of what your experience has been. This encounter would make you feel alien and alone.

Impairment of this capacity causes a bigger gulf between two people than an impairment of language. Two people who speak different languages can still connect through their ability to put themselves in each other's place.

There is no need to be defended or ready for battle. Instead, the sender thinks, "Oh! My partner understands and is sympathetic. I guess I don't need to brace myself for the onslaught or push harder to get my point across. I am being seen and heard. I'm not alone."

Specific ways to express empathy to your partner:

- After listening to you, I am feeling
your (sadness, anger, happiness) and I
am feeling (sad, angry, happy) , too.
- I can imagine that what you've told me makes
you feel (sad, angry, happy). I'm so
glad you told me about it.
- I really feel like I can feel where you're
coming from now. Thank you for sharing this
with me.

This would then involve switching places.

Thanks so much to Frozen for creating this valuable and wonderful guide!



Keep her down to keep her happy???

No.

It's NOT about HER...it's about YOU...

Find that place where you can care for her and go there.... often.

When she's angry and giving you he11 about something look past the anger and see the hurt. Reach down inside yourself and pull up that spirit of love that you only allow out when she's crying and let it envelope you in her angry moments too.

~ Marsh

No, it shouldn't - but I think I'm working too hard to fix problems in the relationship, to move it more towards something healthy. It's more important to connect than address problems at this stage because it's exactly my attempt at objectivity that is taking me out of the moment, leaving my W with nobody to connect with.

No, my W doesn't need to do anything to be loved and accepted by me. That would be conditional love. But you might be on to something - I doubtlessly treat her differently when I feel that she's interested in me, engaged by something I'm talking about. I have felt for some time that she doesn't take an interest in really any of what I talk to her about. And I think I have been suffering from rejection on this level (and others) for some time - to which I may have responded by detaching emotionally because everytime I tried to connect my value to my W was negated. I have felt criticized for a long time - I feel that I had to be me despite her rather than with her encouragement. I take risks and accomplish things that I admire myself for (and other people - like my family - do too), but I don't get that from her.

Yes and no - I believe that we should both want rather than need. But, this is idealism - something to aspire to not reality.

I do, and I have. I continue to share - even when it's not accepted. I continue to enjoy being alive and try and share this experience, this enjoyment with my W. She treats me like she thinks I'm crazy - with an attitude of "who would enjoy that, what's wrong with you?"

That's what I have been trying to do, but clearly I'm not the best mind reader - wouldn't be here now if I were. All cynicism aside, her anger is so personalized and I'm so defensive that it always takes some time for me to overcome my reaction and digest it and by then the opportunity to respond is lost.

I do - I really do, but all too often our conversations take on an interrogation quality (her to me) and I often feel like I'm being cornered and trapped by her superior vergbal skills. Like I'm being hunted for some crime that I committed that I have no knowledge of. What's she looking for? So I'm defensive in my responses. Then she catches me on an inconsistency and bam. What was the real issue? I'll never know. If I could just see past my fear I might direct the conversation in a more productive direction, but when I do she always tells me that I'm trying to get things my way.

Yes - fear of her rejection. I'm sure there's far more depth to this than just that - something personal and psychological - but all I can do is try to remove that fearful response from my reactions. Get beyond it. It's been working somewhat - in large part to my efforts at detachment. Ironic that my detachment may have been responsible for her feeling rejected and also being the only real chance at fixing all of this.

Well, how do I respond in a more loving way while maintaining this boundary? Maybe I should start by offering to allow her to bounce ideas off of me? I guess this is my male response to an issue - it's a problem that needs solving. I respond to my acknowledgement of this "fact" by thinking "it's got to get solved - but it's not my issue" when in fact I could respond by asking her how she feels about it - knowing that it's hers and hers alone.

I don't think so - I think for the most part I have been doing my part to keep resentment at bay. I think it's got more to do with me not taking responsibility for the issues that she brought about in order to allow her to feel the consequences of her choices and actions. I'm probably coming at this from the wrong angle. As for my resentment, I acknowledge that I am here because I choose to be. I also had somewhat of a revelation early on in my personal recovery: I found that I had expectations associated with my feelings, that I was trying to get my W to do what I wanted by prolonging my pain. I see it sort of as an infantile response - I'm in pain, I convey my pain, a nurturing person comes and fixes it for me. So if I want a person to come, I convey my pain. I accepted that my W wasn't going to respond to my pain and decided that I wouldn't prolong it, I would redirect my thoughts and not contribute to the snowball of emotions. I apply the same sort of reasoning to issues that I might create resentment for. Why would I resent? Because I want to influence another person with my emotions. I accept that I can't control another person, and I certainly can't do so by conjuring emotions to this end. The only thing I do is upset myself.

My interpretation. Seems to me to be well founded - but again, this is my biggest deficiency in life, I tend to overthink and underact. To me, judgment and evaluation are thinking and connecting is the action. I judge the situation and come to new understandings, change my paradigm, think differently about the situation, but I don't think I have connected in such a way as to convey the changes in my personal reality. Again, this is a way I wrongly understand that changing my understanding of the world will change objective reality. I keep looking for some concept that will help me understand where I've gone wrong and once I find it my actions will naturally change, my W will know that I've found the holy grail of relationship ideas and all will be restored.

The boundary I'm talking about is the distinction between her and me. If you want to define a property line you could plant shrubs or put up a barbed wire electric fence. I'm coming across as though there's a barbed wire fence between us, when really it's just soft skin.

No, I think OM does see her as I do. I think that's the problem. She sees herself differently with him. In your perspective she's passive, in mine she's active. This is what inspires her feelings - the fact that she's active. She's doing something, she's being fulfilled because of this. How do I know this? I don't know this just as she might never know this. I think my judgement is sound though.

No - she feels the presence of the affair always. Even though I don't talk about it, she thinks that I always see her with a big red A on her chest. This came from the discussion we had the other night. I told her that it's there but I see so much more in her. I think to a large degree that she's starting to feel guilt for what it is - that she's feeling guilty for it and it's pervading her interactions with me. How can one feel accepted when they don't accept themselves in your presence?

I did detach from her. This is all since the start of the affair. Once she started realizing that she was losing the control she had over me she started to become anxious. Plus she was always worried that I would reveal her secret in some way that would hurt her that much more.

This is difficult to determine sometimes. I think a lot of the time her anger is her way of telling me this - that she wants something from me. I need to be more aware and receptive to it - especially since she's quite conflicted now if she's actively screaming for my attention and rejecting it at the same time.

Doesn't matter to me - he's a great guy and I have no problem with it. It's something that she needs to resolve though.

Couldn't if I tried. I do want to change the way we interact. Your attention really helps me pinpoint my issues here. Thank you.

I keep thinking that I've been doing this - but I can see now that my priority seems to be first protecting my beliefs and second understanding and connecting with my W. Misprioritization.

The last thing I want to do is keep her down - I meant more that if she sees me treating her the way I do when she's down she'll think that I'm trying to somehow keep her down. But your point has to do with what I'm giving at those moments which should be more universal. I'm not sure what I do differently then - except that I give her attention and nurture her. Last night she wasn't feeling well and I made her soup and took care of her. She got angry once or twice when my attention went to other things (trying to get our Christmas stuff done), but for the most part I could tell she enjoyed having me there.

FB, I too have used some of the techniques you talk about. I think it's critical to regain yourself in the recovery process, and these techniques empower you because they allow you to see where you begin and end and what is within your control. All too often we cause ourselves pain because we struggle in our minds to try and control the actions of others with our beliefs and expectations. I think Marsh (whether this is her intention or not) has effectively pointed out to me that my hardline approach to defining the line between us is actually destroying the connection.

marsh does seem to be able to clarify things well, thanks marsh!

maybe all that effort would be better put to use down the line. I know I have had a hard time trying to just accept that I don't have any answers, and may not for a while get any. that is empowering in its own way. "stop trying to figure it out" I tell myself. and just go with the flow. it makes it easier to curb the fix it impulse. I just stopped fixing it. its going to be broken for a while. I am getting to a place where I'm alright with that.

HI, guys, I've been checking in but I haven't really had anything to say...


I really Love the way you said this...the energy she needs that a great way of looking at it...


I don't know about you, but I have a hard time doing this. I mean I know what I'm suppose to do but I find myself refuting often...well, at least practice makes progress... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

{quote]I think Marsh (whether this is her intention or not) has effectively pointed out to me that my hardline approach to defining the line between us is actually destroying the connection. [/quote]

Can you please explain this more for me? I would really appreciate it!

I think my concern about codependency issues is causing me to work towards building more healthy boundaries between us, which consequently (because of the state of the relationship and my partial understanding and implementation) wastes opportunities for connection. It's more important to maintain the connection than to try and fix the problems in the relationship because if there's no connection, then all you're left with is a very imperfect shell. Who wants to keep that around and try and polish it up and make it look better? There's no substance to it.

Thank you, I see what you mean! Well, it's time for me to get out of here! Take care! Hope to talk with you soon!

Thank you for your input. I'm out too. Happy holidays!

I focused a lot on connecting with my W this weekend. We did a lot together and I tried to really be supportive and helpful, upbeat, friendly, etc. but we did have some moments where we argued. Although I have been trying to look at my W's outbursts in a less judgemental, evaluative way, it's difficult because one of my defense mechanisms is detachment, which in my execution means moving into a more evaluative place, removing the personal from the interactions (both me as a person and my W) and trying to see the interactions for what they are. Be an onlooker in my own interactions. I put into action some of the mirroring, telling my W that it seemed she was feeling such and such. But she's got so much anger that she refuses to talk to me. I have to keep it up because I know this sort of change wont have an instantaneous effect.

She's taken issue with my family now. On Christmas eve we came down to do our Christmas with my family and W was getting worked up about it before we left. My family has their issues - they're relatively untidy and disorganized - that my W has problems with. Well, we got there, had to get the food in the oven, clean up seating, set the table, etc., all things that frustrated my W because she doesn't think a guest should have to do this sort of thing, especially when they're coming from much farther away and have a kid. Sure - but this is exactly what we expected. We exchanged gifts, and my father got my brothers, my mother and me each a bottle of wine. My W didn't get one. Then we went to the church. When the service was over I wanted to talk to someone I grew up with (that lives on the opposite coast now) who brought his new baby. W got a little angry and wanted to go. I tried to hurry through it and then when we went to go, W stormed out without saying goodnight to my mother (standing behind me) and not letting her say goodnight to her grandson. She refused to talk to me on the walk back to the car - wouldn't even tell me why she was so angry. In the car she tells me that she is done with my family. They treat her so badly. She felt snubbed about not being given a bottle of wine. She said that I never stick up for her (I told her that I was sure that my father wasn't trying to snub her - after finding out about the affair, he wouldn't let anyone sit in her chair and saved a particular bottle of wine in the fridge for her). I tried to validate her feelings, not give counter arguments, just listen. Today she went a little deeper into it telling me that because of the way my family is she becomes someone she doesn't like. My family "makes" her act certain ways, come off as a ******, or crazy because she wants things done a certain way, and felt criticized by my mother because of how she was doing what she shouldn't have had to do. She doesn't like seeing herself act this way, so she's not going to go back into this situation. This is her boundary. I told her I understood.

So I understand that my family can be strange, but it seems to me the real issue here is her almost non-existant frustration tolerance. Because she turns frustration into something far worse, she makes herself crazy over things that she could just as easily laugh her way through. This theme is resounding, and I think it's got a lot to do with why our communication breakdowns escalate into her screaming, and her throwing tantrums, etc. Her coping mechanism is to escape and avoid frustration and the ensuing negative emotions, but this leads her to live a really unfulfilling life. This puts me in a difficult place because I know this isn't a healthy way for her to live, and I've been blamed for not being more aware of her problems and helping her through them, but if I try and get her into a healthier situation, or I try and work through a conflict without backing down just to ease her negative feelings, then I add to the frustration and negative feelings. It's a catch 22.

In fact, I realized this evening that I'm a liar. I know we all do it, but I lied to her to avoid her getting upset and escalating in front of our son. I didn't even really realize that I had until a bit later. I was with our son and we talked about playing a game. We went downstairs to find W on the computer IMing with my cousin. We came down with the intention of playing a game. W had just a little while ealier told me via telephone that she was going to make dinner. I had turned on the oven for her. When I got down there she clicks away the screen and turns around with a bit of an attitude and asks me to melt some butter for her. I told her no, that we were playing a game. Later when she asked me about it, she told me that I was nasty in the way I said no. This later conversation was in front of our son, so I was really watching my tongue. I told her that I hadn't meant to be, that I had promised our son a game, and that's what we were doing. She challenged me on this asking me why I hadn't told her this exact thing. Well, in truth, I was making a bit of a point, albeit a somewhat pointless point. I was telling her that I wasn't going to do something she had intended to do just to give her more time to cheat on me. But I didn't tell her this to her face in front of our son. So I lied, and I think I do this sort of thing more often than I should.

I had today off from work. I told W this morning that had a few things I wanted to get done. I asked her if she had anything on her list. She told me it didn't matter. I told her it did. She refused to tell me anything. I told her what I intended to do, just to see if I could get some input or agreement, etc. Instead I get the whole "it doesn't matter what I think" act. Well, this is sort of how it went for the day. She got upset telling me that I might as well have been at work because her day was the same. I told her that it was nice to be missed. I made every effort to be open to her input, but she refused to give me any so I did what I thought needed doing, and some of what I wanted to do. It was my day off, and I wanted to share it, but she shut me out and refused to express her needs for the day instead allowing me to do as I wanted and then criticizing me for not doing what she thinks I should have. This is pretty indicative of one of the major issues in our relationship. She thinks that I don't know what needs to be done (the "what" is pretty subjective, but her "what" is seen as a universal), yet refuses to tell me what she thinks needs doing because I should know.

Interesting that I posted this about connecting last night and then I went home and had a connection breakthrough. W wanted to talk to me about the fact that she felt we both had negative views of each other and she wanted to resolve this. We talked over a lot of our issues and really met somewhere in the middle, really understanding where the other was coming from. Good stuff. I came away with several bits of useful knowledge and I felt sure that she felt the same.

First off, she told me that I used to let her push me around and she lost respect for me every time. Now, however, she thinks I've done a 180 and she thinks my "go screw yourself" attitude has replaced this. So yes, I need to continue to maintain my boundaries and not allow myself to be pushed around - I need to make clear to W that when I do what she asks it's by choice.

The other thing we talked about is frustration - how she has difficulty dealing with frustration as frustration (and not escalating it to anger or becoming frantic) and my reacting to her frustration trying to prevent these negative emotions. She brought up codependency at this point.

She brought up her fear that should she recommit to this (and she wants to because of our son, our house, etc) that she'll be wasting her time because in five years she'll be right back here wanting to leave. She said there's no way back. I told her I don't want to go back, I want to go forward, to make something great together that works well for us both. She seemed moved by this and told me that she really doesn't want to lose me - and because I've told her that I don't want to be friends, I want to be her husband, she doesn't really see any way around this.

She told me that she's in constant turmoil about the affair - sometimes wanting to end it. She said that she feels that I blame everything on the affair, that I don't see problems in the relationship as just that, rather I see it all as somehow tied into the affair. I told her that I do feel that the affair changes how the problems are perceived and alters her motivation for addressing them.

I also made an interesting argument for working on the marriage. I told her that my focus right now is taking advantage of this opportunity to learn from the problems in our relationship and improve upon myself. I explained very briefly that I believe that we are drawn to our partners because they help us resolve issues in our lives (often from our FOO) and I intend to make the best of this opportunity with or without her contributions and cooperation. It was quite clear because of our earlier topics that our mutual effort was far more effective than any work either of us did to this end alone.

It felt good to see my W again - even though she was gone again this morning.

MT, great breakthrough.
sorry that you have your WS back this morning. you had a strong night with your W. it sounds like you really connected, great job.

FB, thanks for your continued support. I think it is a breakthrough, but I'm still skeptical. I'm not sure where we're heading, but it's pretty clear that she's just as confused as she was almost a year ago. She's coming to terms with the fact that what she's been doing isn't a solution to anything. I think she is looking more toward solving her problems, and working on our marriage is a really good way of working on ourselves. Who knows if we'll get there.

I think a problem both my W and I share is difficulty connecting with people. I think it's one of the reasons we're attracted to each other. We share this and hide from the world with each other - in a sense we connected over our lack of ability to connect. So now that things are turned on their head, our lack of ability to truly connect prevents us from really communicating. Something that I hope I can turn around in myself. I'm still don't even have a direction to head in with this, just exploring the idea for now.

One thing that I think is so important in working on a marriage or on oneself is the idea of exploiting the positive rather than fixing problems. When you focus on problems that becomes all you see. When you focus on the positive and see what it is that made things actually work, you cultivate this positive energy and the relationship takes on a positive quality even though problems exist. For now I'm going to focus on connecting, since I think it's really what works. I talked with my W about how she thinks I should respond to her frustration and even she was at a loss telling me that she would probably find fault with me no matter how I responded. I think her recognizing this is the first step towards taking responsibility for the negative feelings she creates in response to a frustrating situation. I need to stop taking responsibility, but demonstrating compassion, understanding, support, etc. I want her to know I'm there for her if she wants my help, but that I know she can do it on her own.

she sounds like she is really trying to understand her actions and motivations. that is the first step.
you are looking at a puzzle and you have only half of the pieces turned upright, it is only when you flip all of them over that you can even begin to put things back together. take your baby steps and have faith.
my WS and I have found it easier to just accept that we don't have the answers. when we sit and talk it helps to know that we both feel lost sometimes.

Hi Muddle,

Congrats on your break through.

There's so much that I want to respond to in your last posts, but I don't have much time right now.

So, this is going to be short and to the point. (I hope) LOL

I believe that you and your WW were living emeshed lives for a long time. You began to discover your uniqueness and began to disconnect w/ her in order to stop the emeshment.

Now, you are discovering your need to re-connect w/ her in a new and healthy way.

GREAT.

I see your greatest hinderance at connecting w/ her is your choice to judge her.

If you can let go of trying to figure her out, and assuming stuff about her, you will have a chance at truly discovering who she really is.



Anger is NOT a bad feeling.

There are no bad feelings.

The Bible says, BE angry, but sin not.

There is no sin in anger...the sin is in the particular choices you might make once you become angry.

Your WW doesn't need to stiffle her anger. Stuffing a feeling will only come back to bite you. If you tell yourself there is shame in being angry, you've just thrown fuel on the fire. And when it rears its head again it will be more out of control than when it first appeared.

It's OK to be angry.

Please don't try to suppress her feelings. When you do this, you're crossing over her boundaries. You are emeshing w/ her again.

Acknowledge her feeling of anger w/o trying to talk her out of it.

You need to have clear boundaries w/ what you will and will not accept from her.

If she disrespects you while she's angry, say so. And tell her, if she doesn't stop you will leave the room for a set time. If she continues to disrespect you then leave the room. If she follows you, still disrespecting you, leave the house, for stated time.

This way you are NOT controlling her. You are respecting her choice to do as she pleases. And you are respecting yourself by not allowing abusive behavior.

That's it for now.

~ Marsh

Marsh, thanks for your input and I look forward to any more you might have to offer in response to my previous posts.

Yes, we talked about this last night - about how we are doing this to each other. I have trouble with trying to stop doing something unless I have a way of positively redirecting myself. I'm trying to improve my ability to connect as a way of redirecting my energy. Unfortunately, I'm interested in whether my efforts are having an impact (sometimes I think it would be wonderful if I truly didn't care how my actions are perceived) so I evaluate my W to see where she is. I judge and assume - really counter to where we should be in a good relationship. But given the circumstances, we don't exactly trust each other enough to be open and direct. I have been taking the risk more and more often to be direct - if both of us continue to hide we'll never get any closer.

So what is it in me that needs to hold onto something? I find myself looking for something else to grab a hold of, some way of maintaining my focus on the relationship but in a more positive, healthy way. Not sure how I can replace my somewhat obsessive fixation on the relationship with a more healthy, productive focus. It's feeding the fear of losing her and the marriage that will inevitably cause it to end, hanging in just strangles it that much more. I know this, and I thought that I had let go in a lot of ways.

No, I agree. I think I have a certain amount of shame in my own anger. I think I project this onto my W too. But I also see that she uses her negative emotions to hurt herself. Yes, it's how you use it, not how you feel that's bad or wrong. I see her hurt herself and I want to rescue her. She knows this. One of the things she does when she gets really frustrated and angry at me is to scratch at her own face. I feel horrible when she does this. I would do just about anything to get her to stop - and I don't think I'm crazy for feeling this way. The enmeshment makes this a bad quality in me.

No, I don't try and suppress her feelings. In fact I want her to let them out. Another thing we talked about last night is that she most often is not angry about what she's letting me have it for - that she's working through this with her therapist and is making progress with really understanding where her anger comes from in other areas of her life, but with me she still has trouble. Once she's able to get to the root of this she'll be better able to communicate her feelings without picking away at me for insignificant stuff. My issue is that I feel responsible for helping her through her feelings or righting the wrongs that make her angry - and she feels that I am too. I feel like she doesn't respect my boundaries by doing this, that she feels entitled to a part of me and I don't really have the opportunity to give of myself - it's taken and then I'm criticized for not doing a good job at it. Maybe if I was able to give in a genuine honest way I would do better, and it would be recognized that I gave my best effort and that be appreciated.

This I have started to do. The mirroring really helps here. I will say to her that it seems that she's angry and let her know how it appears to me that she got that way. Patience is in short supply so this doesn't often work, but it's clear that the effort is made, that I'm listening to her. This means something and it makes it easier to revisit the subject later more productively.

Yes, I have been focusing on this. This is also a somewhat gray area that we talked about last night. I told her that she was disrespecting me by speaking to me the way she did at some point, and she responded by telling me that she thought I was seeing it through my lense and making it into something that it wasn't. I re-phrased my statement to say that I felt disrespected. But I do have my boundaries.

Thanks again for your input.

"So what is it in me that needs to hold onto something? I find myself looking for something else to grab a hold of, some way of maintaining my focus on the relationship but in a more positive, healthy way. Not sure how I can replace my somewhat obsessive fixation on the relationship with a more healthy, productive focus. It's feeding the fear of losing her and the marriage that will inevitably cause it to end, hanging in just strangles it that much more. I know this, and I thought that I had let go in a lot of ways."

MT, I have the same identical problem. I thought I was doing better, then after I reassess, I find I am reverting back to my old ways. now I am simply tring to convert my energy away from her to myself and my children. easier said than done. old habits die hard. we've discussed this before, detaching, and still filling EN's is a hard line to walk. still have no Ideas about making it any easier. I have to say though , i am not so much afraid of losing my WS as I feel I have already lost her. I am afraid of the unknown, of not getting another chance.

For me it's not so much about fear. It's more about having some sort of purpose. Something that I've found in the past year to have been misplaced in the relationship. I neglected doing what I wanted - in a sense what I needed - to do with my life because I was always doing a half-assed job with the family and my marriage. I've had a wake-up call and I rediscovered my passion for life, for learning and exploring. Something that sort of dead-ended in my marriage - because I stopped nurturing myself. But now I'm attached to this position I'm in (my W keeps alluding to the fact that she thinks it's some sort of ego thing) and I identify with it. It's not simply something I'm doing, going through - but I've attached a lot of significance to it. Just what I saw my W do. This is so dangerous because I need to see actions for what they are, and realistically weigh out the consequences - but I think I've been attaching significance to it that isn't inherent.

If you want to understand her, you have to stop assuming you do.

You stay w/ your stuff.

Do you have a set of clearly defined 'codes' you want to live by?

If you do, then re-direct yourself there. If you don't, you might want to consider getting some.



If you have a set of codes you want to live by, making sure you are living by them is a full-time job.

If respectful is something you choose to be, then you will not allow yourself to be disrespectful.

Trying to climb inside someone else's head is disrespectful.

Labeling, assuming, are all disrespectful and will hinder the intimacy you want to create w/ your WW.

Evaluate your choices based upon whether or not they are fall inside your set of codes, not on the affect they are having on your WW.



You're absolutely right. And good for you for choosing to connect w/ your WW.

The more you share your thoughts/feelings/ the less fear you will have, and the more trust you will develop in YOURSELF.

(As long as you are sharing w/o the intention of changing your WW's thoughts/feelings....)

And the clearer your boundaries are and the more consistent you are at enforcing them, the greater your trust will grow in yourself.



Like FB said, you put the focus on you. It's the only thing you can truly control.

Focus on maintaining your code.

If you wish to be respectful, honest, accepting, considerate, ect...then be sure that your choices are in line w/ these codes.

If your WW chooses to say something disrespectful to you, you can stop that thought in your own mind by saying, No! No one else defines me, it's not respectful.... and I define no one else, b/c it's not respectful.

You can even say this out loud...for YOURSELF.

Not for your WW. But, for YOU.

If she disagrees w/ what you said then repeat it back to her, for clarification.

"I hear you saying that you think you do define me, is that correct?"

You repeat back to her to understand what she's saying, and also so SHE can hear what she's saying.

Don't argue w/ her. You are listening to UNDERSTAND her, not change her.



Are you sure about this?

Have you told her this is how you feel when you see her scratch her face?

Or are you assuming she knows this is how you feel/think?



If she was angry w/ YOU, why doesn't she scratch YOUR face?

Could she be angry at herself?

And I know you know it wasn't YOU who made her angry.



What do you mean you feel horrible?

Responsible for her choice?

Or horrible b/c you hate to see her injure herself?


Have you ever walked away from her when she's scratching her face?

Have you ever asked her about this behavior in a peaceful moment?

...asked her why she scratches her face in this way?

...asked her what needs to happen for her to give herself permission to do this to her face?



You believe that you are responsible for her thoughts and feelings?



She may feel/believe that you are responsible for her feelings, but that doesn't mean she's crossed any of your boundaries by simply believing it to be true.

You stop her words from being accepted as yours by reminding yourself that you aren't responsible for her feelings. You don't need to convince her of the truth of this. You simply state your beliefs and repeat hers back to her. You share and understand.

She may choose to criticize you for a number of things and you can choose to reject her criticisms in your mind, and repeat back to her what she's stated.

Or you can choose to argue w/ her.

Or you can accept her belief's as yours.

Your choice.



What do you mean, 'give in a genuine honest way'?

W/o the desire to effect change in your WW?

Why are you looking for your WW to appreciate your best effort?

Why can't you appreciate the choices you are making to build up your M, to care for yourself in a healthy way, and to live by your own personal standards/code?




Would you consider saying, 'seems upset',rather than 'seems angry.'?

.....especially If she feels shame about feeling angry.

Let her define her feelings.



This is a DJ.

Why not respect her enough to ask her why she seems to be upset?

How could you possibly know her thought process for arriving at her current feeling?



That's fine.

But, don't forget to repeat back what she says to you.

It's VERY important that you clarify what she believes, b/c this will help you to keep the two of you separate in your mind, plus it will help you UNDERSTAND your WW, plus it will force your WW to hear what she believes. All good stuff.

~ Marsh