"I'm sorry you feel this way"

"How can we solve the problem?"

The problem is never a person. If you both unite against the problem, you're a team. If you express how you feel rather than tell her what you think she's doing, she can't reasonably argue with you. Express what you feel, respond to her feelings or issues by repeating what she says to you. This way she knows she's been heard. Try and find the problem and look for a way to solve it. Not fix it - this takes her power away, rather find solutions as this empowers you both.

MT
those are great suggestions, does that also apply when W is in the fog? I find she is open to communicating when she is feeling remorse, guilt. acts like my W again. but when she goes back to the fog, withdraws and then spits the venom. is it futile to try and draw her out when this occurs? it is so confusing. I know she misses OP, feels bored, needs that stimulation. is it worth while to try to get her to talk about missing OP. that would just tear me up, also I have asked not to know any details of the A.

confused on that one. anyone have any suggestions???

I think the objective here has to be giving her a safe place to express her emotions rather than trying to get them out of her. You can't control the choices another person makes, but you can make it more appealing to make the choice you want them to. The point I was making was that if you go into a situation being emotionally available, aware of and respectful of both her emotions and your own, you create a situation where it's likely she'll want to join you in this place. In this place you're not looking for self gratification, but rather a place to share. I think it's important to be aware of your boundaries here, so I'm not suggesting you accept abusive treatment from her, but I think you should be available. As long as you're wearing armour, there is potential for a fight. Be available, be vulnerable and never do anything for your own gratification (if you're pushing buttons, or trying to get her to express herself so you can figure out how to manipulate and approach her, you're looking for self gratification), rather seek to understand her without judgement.

The trouble with the venom of the fog is that it's designed to get a rise out of you - she's pushing your buttons - and total detachment seems to me to be almost as much a reaction to the button pushing as arguing. I think it's important to respond to her venom with feeling language. I think you express yourself without trying to control. Accept that she feels the way she does. Most often it will come at you in factual statements rather than emotional language, but it is totally driven by emotion. If you set the example and speak about your feelings, she may respond in kind. You can't argue about emotions - and if you understand her, she'll have a sense of gratification. Just my two cents.

You haven't gotten to the point where you CAN talk to her?

Why not?



Well, having conflicting beliefs will do this.

But, you can get rid of the false belief simply by becoming aware of its existence.

You know you have no power over your WW's anger/frustration but you are still trying to manipulate what isn't yours.

Don't you find it frustrating to keep trying to exert power where you don't have any?


Huh? What do you believe you did?

You believe you failed at something, and you're blaming your failure on having made yourself believe that you gave your all, when infact you hadn't?

Wow!.

Why would you lie to yourself in this way?

And how do you know you lied?

And how are you sure you didn't give your all?



Is it possible that you tried to do something that was simply beyond your limits?

I see you trying to control things that are beyond your limits right now.

Believing we can do something we can't ...expecting ourselves to perform outside of our capabilities is a sure fire way to bring down resentments on our own heads.

Ouch!



Ouch!

DJ!!!

Does this mean that you sometimes put off responsibilities? And then later pick them up again?

Does being lazy once in a while mean you weren't trying your best?

Or does it mean you were indulging in self care?

Does taking a nap when you're tired mean you weren't trying your best? Does giving your mind and/or body a break from an activity mean you weren't trying your best?



Huh? If you convince yourself that you weren't lazy, then how come you're not still convinced?



I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here.

If you want to believe that you can't trust yourself, that's your choice.

What's your payoff for believing this?



And yet....you say you need her to evaluate your performance.

You see the problem when she does it.

You feel how awful it feels, and yet you STILL encourage her to do it, b/c you choose to believe you can't be sure you're doing your best unless she tells you you are.

You can't trust yourself to believe you are doing your best, so you need someone from OUTSIDE you to tell you that you are or are not doing your best.

Wow!



What does a pure heart look like?



OK, if I wave at my neighbor b/c I want to act out of love for her...is that a 'pure' motive?

What if I wave at my neighbor b/c I want her to like me enough to take care not to run over my flower bed? Is that a 'pure motive'?



Really?

This is what you mean by having pure motives? To be able to recognize and solve new problems/challenges before they get out of hand?

That's a pretty tall order.

Yikes!



Perhaps. Does ignoring red flags b/c you have fears and doubts mean you weren't doing your best?


Sinister side?

To what??




That wasn't what I was asking.

I asked you why you thought you TRICK yourself into doing the right thing for the wrong reasons.

Why do you think you would do this to yourself?





No, you tell her what you believe about her when you compliment her character or personality.

Let me try to explain it better...

Your WW believes certain things about herself.

Some are negative.

When you tell her you believe something about her that she doesn't believe , she'll argue w/ you, correct?

For example....you tell her you think she's a nice person. She doesn't believe that she's a nice person, so she'll either argue w/ you about this or she'll reject this.

That makes sense to you, right?

You didn't need to try to climb inside her head and get into her stuff to make sense out of this, right?




Well if you could stop at her actions, you'd be in a respectful place. But, once you start judging her motives, feelings, inward thoughts...then you've crossed over into the land of "I see her as flawed." And she you.



True. But, even discussing your thoughts, expectations, and feelings later, in a quiet moment, would be beneficial.



Yup. Once you start judging and assuming stuff, you can no longer see the other person's choices as reasonable.



Exactly!!!

Having different thoughts and opinions doesn't mean one of you is bad and the other good. Or right or wrong. It doesn't mean that you aren't both using sound reasoning.

See how respectful that feels?

Do you feel how freeing it feels to accept her opinions as reasonable? It's b/c when you accept hers as reasonable, you are also accepting YOURS as reasonable. What we do to others we do to ourselves. It's a two way street.



Stop getting into her stuff and you'll be fine.







Is it possible to do EVERYTHING right?


So, when you called yourself a liar, you were just trying to put things into perspective?

Are you a liar? Is this an honest perspective?

How does making this disrespectful judgment about yourself help you?



When you judge, it feels like you are safer/smarter/better, but does it really make you those things?



Thankyou for sharing yourself w/ me. I really appreciate it, b/c it helps me too.

~ Marsh

DJ



Was she sincerely asking this?

Was she making a joke?



DJ



What did she mean?

I choose to believe people are always trying to connect w/ others.

I bet there are alot of hurt feelings underneath that statement that need to be understood. Doesn't mean you have to take the blame for them. I see a need to share them and acknowledge them.


Once you assumed stuff about what she meant w/o getting clarification, you responded from your assumptions instead of from a place of wanting to understand and connect.



DJs


~ Marsh

MT, sorry for riding on your post, but marsh has great perspective. and thanks, I agree with the idea of communicating only to understand, not judge, not fix. great advice.

Marsh, yes, she was absolutely serious. its like she chose to forget previous conversations we had about her staying in the house until her apart. was ready. she said "so, I can't see L at all?? I thought if I came home at a reasonable hour, you might be OK with that? how about if I just went to lunch with L?"

I wanted to scream. but I didn't. I got lost, couldn't mirror. I asked her to remember our agreement. she said "Idon't remember" then I told her "if you need to see OP, then that is your choice, but you will need to pack your things, as I don't expect you to sleep here"

she has places to go, but doesn't want to, I told her she could stay at the house until next weekend to get her stuff together, but I expected she would not see OP. I was very clear about this. she agreed.

then she started with the self efacing, I didn't know how to connect, you are right, I should not have made assumtions, maybe asking her if she was upset would have been better??

thanks for the input

When she moves out, does she expect to have a R w/ you?




You did well. You stated your boundaries and let her know you planned on enforcing them if she chooses to cross them.

Very good.

She thought she might try to find a way around them, but you held firm.

I don't see her as trying to bait you, only trying to find a way around your boundary.



Fair enough.



Two things...

1) Asking for clarification will help you to stop making assumptions. So, give yourself permission to ask.

2) It's difficult to be understanding when you are in a conversation that FEELS rejecting or frightening...so, we often look for a way to shut the conversation down rather than open ourselves up to possible harm.

What I do when I feel frightened by a conversation, is I remind myself that the person is trying to connect w/ me. So even though I feel fear, I can still reach past it to attempt to connect w/ them.

I look for a way TO connect, rather than for a way to disconnect.

So, yes, you might have asked her why she seemed upset.

Or you could have asked her what she meant about her laundry comment.

Give yourself permission to ask for clarification and then repeat back so she can hear what she believes. It can be surprising to hear back what we believe...eye opening.


~ Marsh

Because I'm just starting to understand this dynamic. Also, being that she's not interested in being in a relationship with me right now, isn't it counter-productive to try and address it? She's not interested in solving problems, so pointing them out gives her that much more reason to run. I intend to understand and remedy my side - and if the opportunity arises to communicate with her about it, I will (although it's likely that we will address this in our counseling session shortly). Also, I don't want to come across as blaming - rather I don't want to blame her - when I explain how I see this relationship dynamic and the parts we each play in it.

Yes it's frustrating. Yes, I think it's a problem that I try to manipulate anything at all. It goes against my strongest beliefs. Yet it's somehow ingrained in me that I can escape my fear of her taking out her frustration/anger on my by manipulating her feelings. One of the biggest awakenings I have had in this process is accepting that her getting mad isn't my business, isn't my problem. The fear is my problem, and I have actively worked to be aware of that distinction. Likewise, that it puts me in an uncomfortable position isn't really my W's problem (although if that's her intention it is - but that's not my place) - she shouldn't have to censor herself (in the sense that she should be able to express her emotions - as long as she does so respectfully, which often isn't the case) in order to make me more comfortable.

All I know is that I allow myself to be far too vague in my beliefs and I'm far more externally directed than I ever realized. I think these things go hand in hand and lead to a certain degree of deceitfullness in me. If I'm vague then I can convince someone else that my belief is similar to their own, no matter who I'm talking to. So it's less a matter of truthfullness and more about honesty. If I'm not internally determining my level of effort, but rather basing it on what others think, than I can't ever be honest about how I feel because I don't know. I'm too detached from my own feelings to know.

Oh yeah, it happens. It's not a problem when it does either. But I'm talking more about something I have a sense of guilt about. I have a sense of guilt about this marriage, and my efforts to save it in the past months. I think it's because I have lots of different motivations, and my personal recovery has required a certain degree of dishonesty myself to allow myself to get beyond the hurt to do what's right. A certain degree of denial.

I think wrestling with ideas and actually trying to control things are different. Although, I tend to see a bit of fuzziness in my personal philosophy regarding whether thoughts are action or not. My thoughts can't control my W, but they can control how I see her, and what perspective I take - how I frame the situation. My framing of the situation can directly change the way she relates to me.

I hear you objecting to me labeling myself as something or other. I'm not sure if this is it exactly. From my perspective, I'm occupying a role for a time. I don't identify myself negatively with this, but rather recognize that I'm performing in a way that's labelled this way by society.

Yup. Sometimes I even rest a bit when I have stuff to do. Sometime stuff doesn't get done, and I still find the time to rest. And I don't always feel bad about it either. I get criticized for this too by my W, and if this is a make or break issue in our marriage, I'm not sure that it's something that I can change. It's not something that I want to change, because I believe in having a balanced life. Always working working working doesn't leave room for balance.

No, I can try my best when I do try. It doesn't mean that I'm doing a job half-assed.

I'm sorry, I didn't articulate that properly. I know I put in a lot of effort but in insufficient quantity. So I wasn't lazy in the sense that I didn't give enough, but I was lazy in the sense that I mismanaged my time.

This is the thinking that keeps me externally driven. It's not so much that I can't trust myself, it's more that I'm concerned with how others interpret my effort or actions and I can't trust them to see that I've given my best. I don't think I often do give my best (this, in my mind, comes from having higher intelligence than most of the kids in my class and getting by without trying too hard), and I feel somewhat guilty getting by and having people admire my work.

Well, maybe this has to do with laziness. If I don't want to exert myself than I only have to meet the expectations of others because I'm more interested in being comfortable in the moment. I'm not really experiencing a whole lot of conflict because I justify my lack of effort by saying that being a perfectionist is bad and that actually getting the job done is what's important, not how much effort I put in. Now, I do have a bit of conflict in saying this because I do experience a great deal of joy in applying myself (regardless of whether I accomplish something or not), so I have conflicting drives with valid beliefs and justfications for these beliefs. It's all about moderation - not bad vs. good drives. It's the resulting consequences that determine bad or good.

Well, it depends on whose fantasy it comes from!

No, not exactly. Part of this is that I believed our marriage was good when I knew it wasn't. I keep hearing something our counselor repeated me say that I was happy with our relationship. I keep trying to argue with this saying that I am happy being married to my W, but I'm not really happy with the relationship. I love my W, but there are problems in the relationship - this is something that took a long time for me to realize. I wasn't happy in the relationship, but I wasn't honest about this. My W wasn't either - she just got honest with herself sooner than I did because she got a real payout because of this.

To our selves. I'm not really sure what I was getting at here.


Because I want to appear a certain way to others, and the best way to pass your self off as something is to believe it yourself. This isn't as negative a thing as it comes out sounding. I have benefitted greatly from this as I learn to do so much. I have picked up a lot of skills, things that I enjoy doing and that enrich my life. I am able to step into a lot of roles, yet I don't really identify with them. I'm a jack of all trades, master of none.

You're right - it's the asking of whys that is crossing over the line into trying to figure out the other person's "problems" - why they came to a different place than you did (because your reasoning is always right).

No. And I never could because I continue to make mistakes (hopefully fewer and fewer) as I go. I forgive myself and move on and if my W loves me she will forgive me my mistakes as well. I guess what I was getting at is that I reward myself for acting in a way that gets me closer to my goal with good feelings.

I'm reframing it as I think people will see it. It's my honest opinion about how people will regard me. It helps me to frame it this way so that I can make sure that the way I see myself matches the way I think people will see me. Balance is important to me, and while I have been talking a lot about being externally directed, I'm also internally directed. I think there's a balance to be struck and my pendulum is more in on the externally directed side than the internally directed. Both motivations are important in my life.

If I need to feel this way it would mean that I have a bit of an inferiority complex. It's interesting because I often judge the motivation for my W's actions to be her feelings of inadequacy. It takes one to know one, I guess - even if it takes a different form.

Ok, I wanted to quickly address a couple of relationship issues that have come up. This evening W comes home from shopping with her mom. She's aggravated (her description, not my judgement). She snaps at me (when my brother-in-law was around during the holidays, he told her not to talk to me the was she was - and that time I wasn't even really aware that she had an attitude, so it's not just my interpretation) a couple of times while I convey my interest in seeing what she got, and then she goes beyond being snippy to insulting me (I told her the pants she got looked like work slacks and she responded by saying "who says that?" like I'm crazy). Anyway, I got to the point where I refused to be treated this way any longer and left the room. She called me back saying something about how I was going to go off and write nasty things about her and talk about what a bad mother she is.

The night we had our breakthrough talk, I got some indications that she read my journal. I have been documenting things - for example I document my involvement in the care of our son, and also any outlandish bad behavior of my W. Yes, this is just-in-case stuff which I think is my due diligence, and it should not have fallen into her hands, but it brings up another reason I have to feel internal conflict regarding my judging of my W. If I don't document things, should custody become an issue I'm vulnerable in a court system that favors the mother, not to mention my son would miss out because he would lose time with his very present father. But I also don't want to be keeping score of her faults, criticizing her every move. How can she trust me if she thinks that I'm going to try and take her kid away from her? I'm not really trustworthy, am I? She as much as said she would tell my cousin goodbye if she would lose her son because of it, or that she would stay with me if it meant keeping him. Since that talk things have been much better (she even invited me to play a game with her last night - shocking that she would want to spend time together!), but she's eluded to being resentful that she has to be perfect otherwise I'm going to put black marks in my book - and if I think it then it makes it true and can be used against her.

It's almost ironic that this comes up now that I'm actively working on my judgment. How should I address this with her? Should I tell her the truth? My reasoning? That I'm trying to protect my self and my son? It hasn't really been spoken about openly yet, but I think it's the best thing to be direct about it. Yet I don't want to discuss divorce - especially such a contingency plan. If we are to get divorced, I want to do so in the best, most equitable way possible - yet I want to be prepared if emotions get the best of her.

I try to take the good (and bad) for what it is, without trying to figure out what the motivation was. I accept the experience as a good one, yet there is a part of me that questions why she's being nice, or where her head is regarding me or our relationship. I'm not sure whether the "breakthrough" was really that, I think it might have been a connection that dissolved as she came to terms with how to counter this move (she's probably keeping her own journal now).

I have conflicting drives here, and before I can approach my W I have to reconcile my own perspective. Or maybe I could be honest about my internal conflict and how I feel about it - this is what I would have done in the past. Or maybe I shouldn't touch this at all and let the fear give her reason to consider working things out? But I don't want her in this because she's afraid of what will happen if she truly leaves, I want her to choose to be here because of love - love for herself, her son, me, life, etc. I don't want fear in the marriage. I don't know.

You allowed her to cross your boundary repeatedly. And then w/drew from her.

How did you show respect to yourself?

To your WW?



If you are documenting incidents in order to protect your son then you are not keeping score, or criticizing her every move.



This is her stuff.



Aren't you?



Fantastic!



Are you showing respect to yourself if you explain or defend your actions?

Can you share your thoughts and opinions in an honest and open way, w/o hoping to receive anything from her? Not approval, acceptance, or understanding...



Your into her stufff again.

Stay here...




Think about your code and choose your actions from there.

~ Marsh

This is a real issue I have with defining my boundaries relative to my W. I have allowed her, over the life of the relationship, to take out her crap on me. I have always accepted it by telling myself that her actions don't define me. She treats me the way she does, and it's her problem. She has all sorts of reasons for doing so, and that's the problem, not me allowing it. I realize that it does me no good to allow myself to be treated this way. It's difficult, however, to change this. The fact that I took action against it and didn't just ignore the misbehavior is progress (to some degree), but sometimes it's tricky to even identify what's her being nasty to me vs. her just expressing her frustration and I'm around. A lot of the time it is clear though. This is one of the bigger issues that I have to address if I'm to save this marriage or have a successful one in the future. I have lost her respect because I let her push me around (her words). Whether someone who does the pushing is worthy of my love is another question entirely though.

This is my perspective too, but do you think this impacts my psychological perspective? Can I compartmentalize enough to insulate my interactions from my evaluations and documenting?

Yes, of course, my trustworthiness has nothing to do with whether she trusts me or not. If she chooses to believe differently than I do, it's her business.

I think so - there seems to be a bit of warmth coming from her. I need to really work on regaining her respect and building on this.

I don't think I need to explain or defend myself, but I also don't want to drive that much more of a wedge between us. It's the desire to appease again. I guess I somewhere think that if I give her what she wants she'll do the same for me. Yet, it's led to my being taken advantage of and feeling unfullfilled.


This is a rough one for me. I want to demonstrate respect for myself and my wife. Am I respecting her by keeping secrets, especially secrets that she is scared or upset by? Yet my actions are only necessary because of something she's set in motion, and they are reasonable and justified. I guess what is most important is that I stop sacrificing myself for the relationship. If I can't do that, then the relationship isn't worth anything. If she has a question she should ask it directly, not elude to what's bothering her. Therefore, it isn't really my problem yet because it's only really in her head, someplace that I don't belong.

Stay focused on respect.

Begin to view everything through a respect filter.

Question your thoughts and belief's.

Is that respectful?

Is this respectful?

Is this choice respectful?

It's a process.

Let go of all the other stuff ...trying to figure your people out. Relationship dynamics. Stay out of other's people's stuff, so you can focus on you.

You have much more power than you realize you do.

You are only beginning to experience it.

Concentrate on being respectful...to others and to YOURSELF!!

No DJ's!

You have alot of disrespectful belief's about yourself and others.

Let them come to you, one by one, see them, and get rid of them.

Be patient w/ yourself.

Respectful.



I think you can use this journel for TWO purposes. One of which will benefit you greatly right now.

As you journal, state the facts w/o opinions or judgment. Just her actions. Nothing more. Filter out your POV.

This is this way we want to view other's behavior...

They did this. They could have done that or the other thing, but they chose to do this.

Don't go to the 'why did they do this?'... b/c then you'll have to assume stuff and make judgments about their motives.

And when you get into their stuff you loose site of your stuff. And you begin to believe their stuff is your stuff. You loose your power, b/c you're busy trying to get someone else's.


Yup. Her choice to believe as she wishes.



I'm glad you are choosing to see her warmth.

As far as your wanting respect from her goes...what we want most from others is the very thing we are not giving to others.

You don't work on gaining something from someone....you give what you want away...




You aren't driving a wedge between you two. You are making a choice to journal. How she reacts to that choice is her business. You don't stop what you are doing, unless what you are doing is outside of your standards.

Stand firm by agreeing that your standards are how you want to live your life.


You think that if YOU give up your standards to please her, she'll give up hers to please you?

Is that a healthy thing to want?



What secrets? She knows about the journal now.



You have NO idea what she thinks about your journal.

She hasn't told you.

She doesn't want to tell you what she thinks about it.

If she did, she'd have told you.

She only wanted you to know she knew, and is not happy about it.

OK, good to know.

Does her unhappiness about it change anything?

Should you end it b/c it displeases her?

~ Marsh

You seem to have picked up on this a bit. It's hard for me not to ask why, why do I? why do you pick up on it? etc. The awareness is the important thing. I appreciate the time and attention you give me.

Interestingly enough, this is what I've been doing. I've been trying to put down a factual account of what's happened. My opinions have no real place in this. I will, however, pay more attention to how I think about events when I write.

No, it's not about gaining something from her (I get this image in my mind of twisting her arm and demanding she respect me! LOL), but rather it's becoming someone worthy of respect - and demonstrating my belief in this by respecting others and myself. As for the warmth, I recognize that she wants to connect with me and I need to let it be just that. I don't want to be her friend without being married, but now being friends is a platform to build off of. Her intentions are her business and it's disrespectful to try and figure out what her motivation is. I know me, not her.

Of course not.

My intentions are a secret. We haven't talked about the journal, she's just dropped hints about it.

Nope, that would be more of me sacrificing myself to the illusion that I would be removing some of her unhappiness. I don't have that power - never did, never will.

Asking why about your stuff is OK.

I believe we accept other people's beliefs, and then they become ours. Most are picked up in childhood. Your parents may have told you that you were lazy, your teachers might have told you that you had alot of potential, but didn't achieve as much as you could b/c you didn't apply yourself enough, a girl might have told you, your nose was funny looking, someone else that you were wimpy...and you believed what they said was true.

I believe that God doesn't make us defective. That we are born as He wanted us to be, but we grow to believe that we are defective. And so we create an image of ourselves. Someone we think is perfect. But, you have to prop that image up using judgments.

Getting rid of judgments helps us to rediscover our TRUE Self. The person who we've been hiding b/c we believed false things about ourselves.



Why do I pick it up?

B/c I'm on the same journey you are.

I see in you what I see in myself.

A need to be free from the prison we put ourselves in by constantly judging.

Judge not, lest you be judged.


...what we do to others, we will do to ourselves.


God designed it this way...a two way street. Perfect justice.


If we respect others, we will respect ourselves.

If we respect ourselves, we will protect our boundaries, we will not DJ ourselves.

There's a book called the Four Agreements, in it the author describes a part of our brain that is the judge and a part that is a victim. The judge is always on the look out for any 'wrong doing' and when he spots it, he will punish the victim. "You didn't apply yourself today at work as well as you should have. You are a lazy person. No wonder you didn't get promoted. No wonder why you didn't get that job. You're such a loser. It's a wonder anyone likes you. Most people really don't like you b/c you are so unlovable".....on and on it goes. Where is the justice in that? How is that helpful?

Here's a link to the book...

http://www.amazon.com/Four-Agreements-Practical-Personal-Freedom/dp/1878424319

~ Marsh

One more thing...



You don't become worthy of respect. You ALREADY are worthy.

~ Marsh

Thanks Marsh. I have had this book on my list for some time. I mentioned it to my mother who had it on order from the library and got it this weekend. Of course she's in the middle of a book and I just finished one (Emotional Unavailability - interesting read and personal applications, but it pigeon holes people a little too much for me to buy in 100%) so I borrowed it. I'm almost through it. I like where it's coming from and I can see how much of an impact is has on you.

Of course I'm already worthy - I meant that more as me needing to convey this to my wife. I am not sure I can do this because she has seemingly already chosen not to respect me, someone worthy of respect. That's her choice and I doubt anything I can do to change my behavior will change the way I exist in her reality (or dream). In fact, it's disrespectful and manipulative to try and change her view of me. I need to be sincere and true to myself in my actions and either she'll come around or not. I keep coming back to that yet it continues to be really important to me what she thinks of me.

This weekend had a couple of interesting moments. We had plans to take down the Christmas decorations on Saturday. In the morning I went downstairs and I told my W that I planned to go to the gym, have a bite to eat, shower and then take down the decorations. After that I was to take our son to my parents' for dinner. Ok, no problems (except that she got a bit upset about the way I conveyed my plans to her - still not exactly sure why this is), she had the day wide open. So I got back from the gym and ate and W came up and started taking things down. So I started to help her. We were taking the garland and lights down from around the windows. She started to get annoyed and told me to bring up the boxes from storage downstairs. I got the boxes and asked if W was in agreement that we put the lights and garland in a particular box. She fired off a non-commital answer, something like "what do you think?" and left it at that. Then she started to tell me that my judgement was poor because the lights would make a big mess in the box. I said ok, let's come up with a better idea. She's right, it was a poor idea and we could do better - I'm not the problem, the idea is, nothing to take personally. I suggested we put the lights back in the boxes they came in and put those in a bigger box. It seemed like we had an agreement, although her agreement was not clearly stated. I told her that I was going to take the lights and garland down on the porch. She didn't think this was a good idea, but conveyed this by telling me that I didn't have any idea how to organize things, that I was going to make a big mess. I told her that it made sense and seemed organized to me to get all the garland and lights down rather than move on to something else. She seemed to think I was moving on to something else by doing this. An assumption, but she wouldn't communicate what she really thought - despite my repeated asking. So I tried to engage her in some real planning then, telling her that I wanted to get the job done and I wanted her to be satisfied with the way it was done. "Let's develop a plan so both of our needs are met here." She wasn't interested in planning. She told me that I was disorganized, that she should just do this on her own. I told her that I may not do things the way she does, but that I have my own sense of order. She told me that I was wrong. That the way I do things is wrong. That she wants them done right. I said that I wanted to be a part of doing them the way she thinks is right. I respect her better sense of organization and I'd like to be a part of a team that met that goal. She didn't like that I had made this about her opinion, she argued the point that there's a right way to do things and a wrong way and this is not a matter of opinion. At this point, I couldn't do anything. Then came the main point: "We just don't work together. We can't." I felt really stymied in my attempt to maintain focus on the problem (getting the work done). It was pretty clear to me that she didn't want to resolve this. I went out and took down the stuff on the porch. Once this was done I tried a couple more times to get her to express her desires about how she wanted to move forward with the project. She wouldn't budge - I felt like she wanted me to be wrong (because anything I do that she doesn't think is right is wrong) and wouldn't tell me what she thought the right thing to do was. I didn't want to argue so I didn't just go and do what I wanted to, but I also didn't like being a part of this situation. W clearly didn't like it either. Shortly after, she told me that she wanted me to take a shower and leave her alone to do this. Later that evening, she wanted me around. She wanted to watch a movie together. Go figure.

On Thursday evening I decided that I wanted to put up a shelf in the bedroom. I got everything ready and mentioned to W that I was doing this. She got upset that I would use her shelf to put up without asking her. She felt it was disrespectful. I appologized and asked her if she minded. She told me she didn't. I wasn't able to put it up that night. So I put it up on Friday night. She again got angry that I had done this, and I reminded her that she told me she gave me the ok. She told me she said something like "do whatever you want." It was a more clear yes the night before. Anyway, this was the start of something for me. I felt the need to make the room more my own, to have some ownership of it. It's a personal thing - I haven't had my own room ever in my life. I also realized that I would take better care of it if I felt some ownership of it. Asked my parents if I could take a couple of oils home (my grandfather painted and my father got a whole lot of his paintings when he died) on Saturday morning. Yesterday my W and in laws took our son somewhere and I decided to stay home. I wanted to put up the paintings and clean up as well as apply for some jobs. I could use the time. I put up the paintings and moved the furniture a bit. I was really proud of how it looked. It didn't feel to me like an empty shell anymore. I felt like I didn't need to have my W in there to make it feel warm and cozy. When she got home she was furious. First off that I moved some of her things, secondly that I made her feel like she had no right to the room, that she was being ousted from it (she abandoned it 6 months ago - what should I do?) and thirdly she was angry that I didn't take care of it until after she stopped caring that I do. She undid some of what I did. She removed a piece of furniture (something she didn't want or need for the past 6 months) that I had moved to the other side of the room - a small desk that she had been using as an end table. She started a conversation about how I was trying to take her son away from her, talked about splitting the possessions, about how I'll have nothing because she brought everything we own into the household. She told me that she was going to stay in the house with our son because she would be the custodial parent and this was what was best for him. I told her I was doing what I thought was best for my child and our family. Then she told me that she could never love me again, she would never. We shouldn't have been married in the first place. I told her I accepted that she believed this. I told her that I believed that she could if she chose to and that this was really what was best for our child. She then started telling me that she thought I should tell the therapist that I believed that we could work things out - implying that I was crazy for holding this belief. She then told me that I was really controlling and manipulative and said something about how her therapist reacts when she tells her about things that I do. She wouldn't give me any details (I'm interested because I'd like to know what I'm doing that's obviously problematic - I'd like to grow and learn). Well, there you have it. I guess part of the symbolism to me about redoing the room is that I am moving on. I refuse to live in an empty shell of a person, or a home or a life, and I'm going to fill it. I love my life, I love my family and home and I want to act like this. I didn't take ownership of my space because I didn't want to step on any toes, because I wanted my W to have the sense that she could make it the way she wanted to, and also because I didn't feel like I have the ability, having never had a room to decorate. All these unreasonable beliefs keeping me tied down to a life I resented. Well, I need to keep moving forward now. I'm not sure how I can plan this out, but I know that if my W is to want to be a part of my life, or to be a family she needs to make it happen. I can't. All I can do is to be open to it, to build my life as I want it, my personhood. Continue to be a good father, provider, person.

"You have no idea the damage you did last night. You sent me the message loud and clear that you don't want me here or in your life. It doesn't matter that you say this isn't what you are saying, your actions tell me it is."

She makes her assumption and feels horrible in response to her assumption. She's not interested in my POV. She demonizes me with the assumptions she makes about my motivations.

"You are nice to me one minute and mean the next."

I think I'm pretty consistent in my actions. I'm not sure if this is utter manipulation on her part. I don't think I'm ever mean - I'm just doing my best. Being mean is counter to my goals.

"I was on the fence a year ago [about whether I should stay married to you] but your actions have made things very clear for me."

It's not my actions, but her interpretation of them. I'm not responsible for her choices no matter how hard she tries to assign responsibility to me.

"You are determined to make me the bad guy. That's all you are focused on."

If I were, I would have initiated divorce. I would have made it clear that because you're having an affair, the relationship is over. You're the bad guy. Instead I have maintained that she's a human trying to do her best to be happy. I forgive her and instead of constantly blaming her I try and see my own part in the problems.

By the same logic that I see what I am, she is accusing me of doing what she is doing. She has started to put out the makings for our son's breakfast the night before. This morning she got angry that I made it for him because she wanted to. She has started making him lunch before I get home with him. I think she wants so badly for me to be the bad guy here. I think that she has this belief that if she feels a certain way in response to my actions that I'm to blame. So if she's hurt that makes me the one that hurt her. I see this over and over. She hurts herself because of her assumptions and blames me for it. Even tells me that I don't even know I mean to do what I did. She is trying so hard to convince herself that I pushed her away, that I am to blame for all the problems in the relationship. Neither of us are "bad" people. I'm doing my best and I think she's trying her best to find another way, a path that will take her towards the light.

RE:Christmas decorations:

She said: "that she should just do this on her own.""We just don't work together. We can't."

You said:"I felt really stymied in my attempt to maintain focus on the problem (getting the work done)."

That wasn't the problem.

She didn't want your help.

She wanted to do it herself.

And you wanted to do it together.

The first time she complained about what you were doing, why didn't you ask her if she wanted to do this together?



No need to figure. She WANTED your company!! She WANTED you w/ her. Good stuff.

RE: the Shelf:

WW:She got upset that I would use her shelf to put up without asking her.She felt it was disrespectful.

You: I appologized and asked her if she minded.

Why did you apologize? B/c she FELT disrespected, or b/c you acted in a disrespectful manner?

RE:the bedroom: I was really proud of how it looked. It didn't feel to me like an empty shell anymore. I felt like I didn't need to have my W in there to make it feel warm and cozy.

I think this was GREAT self-care, Muddle. And I think you ought to do MORE of it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



How did her anger make you feel? Like you had done something wrong?



Was this OK w/ you?

Major DJ: She then started telling me that she thought I should tell the therapist that I believed that we could work things out - implying that I was crazy for holding this belief.

More DJ's: She then told me that I was really controlling and manipulative and said something about how her therapist reacts when she tells her about things that I do.

She wouldn't give me any details (I'm interested because I'd like to know what I'm doing that's obviously problematic - I'd like to grow and learn).

Why would you care what someone else thinks about your behavior especially when he's only getting a one sided, biased opinion?

Should anyone else try to get into your stuff?


Possible things you could have said anyway...

"I wasn't sending a message, I was changing my bedroom around."

"I think I'm going to give the room a fresh coat of paint. When and if you want to move back in the bedroom again, we can pick out a new color together, if you don't like the one I choose."



Are her actions harmful?

How will her fixing him breakfast or lunch make you "the bad guy"?



You're in her stuff again.

Judge her actions not her intentions, thoughts, or feelings.



~ Marsh

Good point. But she didn't want to do this alone either. This is often my predicament. She resents my inability to do things her way intuitively resulting in her need to do it herself to get it done the way she wants it done. We had planned to do this together and I was doing what I agreed to do. The signs were all there that she wanted to do it herself though. I was overly concerned with doing for my own gratification to appreciate this.

Both - I didn't really think that it was disrespectful when I did it because the shelf was sitting there unused and had been for a long time. I felt it belonged to the household, to the family. When she got upset, I felt bad that she felt disrespected (something she tells me is condescending to convey), and I also felt that I had overlooked the potential this action had for making her feel disrespected. She has become very possessive recently and I should have taken that into consideration. So it was somewhat thoughtless on my part, careless, but I don't really think it was disrespectful.

I agree and I am.

Yes and no. I knew I did nothing wrong, yet I felt like I was in a position where I had to justify what I did wasn't wrong (in fact I was in this exact position and WW put our son in the middle of this situation by telling him when he came in to ask why she was upset that "daddy did something wrong and that's why I'm upset"), but I hadn't. I have as much claim to that room as she does (moreso since she abandoned it) - yet she is coming at this by implying that I should have talked to her and done this through mutual agreement.

No this wasn't. But I didn't really have a leg to stand on because it was "her" item that she removed. I expressed that this wasn't alright with me, but I don't think it meant anything to her.

What's the DJ? I'm not really clear on this - is it on my part? Her body language and context said this loud and clear.

No - it was disrespectful and nobody should get into my stuff. I guess it was wrong for me to try and find out what she tells her therapist about me because I'm trying to get into her stuff by doing so. I am curious about this therapist because I think she's helping her rationalize this whole thing and supports her through it. I'm interested to know what assumptions she's making, what she sees as my controlling behavior (I find it interesting that my W is so concerned about my controlling and sees everything through this filter - is it possible this is her issue and maybe her therapist can work her through this?). Nothing I can do with that information though.

I did - I told her that I wasn't sending a message. She told me that I was whether I meant to or not. I told her I was sorry that she chose to take this message away from the situation, but that it wasn't coming from me. She responded that I always deflect responsibility for things, that I always blame her for her own feelings and never take responsibility for bringing them about.

She can't make me the bad guy anywhere but in her own mind (or in the minds of others to some degree). In fact, if anything this is a good thing because it improves her involvement in the care of our son. He gets more attention, but I think the quality of that attention is poor because it's done out of fear and resentfully.

Ok.

Thanks for your opinions here.

I think you could take this approach w/ loading the dishes (or whatever) as well.

If she complains, ask her if she'd rather you not do them.

Very often, women want their H to "help" them around the house, but once they see the "help" they are getting, they'd rather do it themselves. Which is ok. Right?


What did you say in response to what she said to your son?



Ask her if she believes that you two should always come to agreement about everything.

Like her A maybe?



She DJed you.



Not right or wrong.

How about helpful or unhelpful?

Were you trying to get into her stuff when you asked her what her therapist thought of you?

Or were you 'inviting' her therapist to cross your boundaries and into your stuff?



It sounds as though her therapist is not very helpful.

Your WW's choice to see you as controlling is the way she wants to see you.

Good to know.

Not your place to try to change that.



Have you asked her if she would like you to hold her responsible for YOUR feelings?



Still doesn't make it so.

No one can define you, except YOU.

Besides, what can she say? Muddle made breakfast this morning for DS and I wanted to! Can you believe how controlling Muddle is?

Muddle changed the bedroom around w/o asking me first. Can you believe THAT? He didn't ask me if it was ok first.



Exactly.

It's a good thing.


Your in her stuff again.

Judge her actions not her intentions or feelings.

~ Marsh