Works for me. I just need to be sure that I don't come off sounding resentful. I don't want to give her the impression that I am abandoning her because I can't get what I want - I want it to be a generous act on my part. It doesn't often come across that way though.

Nothing. I let it go. I didn't want to put him in the middle. Today at lunch he said something like "no mommy, daddy's always right" - a point she's always going on about. I can't stop her from doing what she's doing, and my opinion that it's not healthy for our S to hear this only makes her mad. All I can do is stop or try and prevent the occurance of these conversations in front of our son. Arguing does no good in relation to the goal or for our son.

A point I often want to make. There's a serious double standard going on, but I don't want to make everything about that. She already thinks I think so.

By her comment it was clear that her therapist had already crossed into my stuff land. I certainly wasn't inviting her in, but rather trying to figure out which sights she saw on her tour. I think my intention was to try and deduce what the filter was my W is looking at this all through and how it is conveyed to the therapist. Not healthy on my part.

Exactly. But I don't really know anything about the therapist. I only have my judgements, which are not really anything to go on.

No, but a situation came up that I almost challenged her on today. She said something about how I can't be sorry about the way I feel without being sorry for the actions I took that caused her feelings. She has told me in the past that she's sorry about the pain her affair has caused me. Interesting.

I agree, and I know this. This is a concept that I have used for a long time - something that is somewhat defensive. I feel her attempts to try and define me, to try and control me, but I recognize that it's my choice to do as she asks. I am defining myself through my choices.

Well, her feelings are borne out in her actions. I'm judging her past actions. I need to remind myself to let the past go - just as I like to renew myself and give myself a clear slate and start from now, I need to do the same for her.

Yesterday morning, my W threatened to reciprocate by cleaning up downstairs without my input. She did a lot and when I got home she was nice to me, and interested in showing me what she had done. I was impressed. She asked that we agree not to do anymore moving of furniture without consulting the other now that we had both done what we did on our own.

She told me that she was jealous that I had such a nice room, and she thought it was terribly unfair that she is living where she's living "just because I don't want to sleep with you." She said she wanted a nice room. I told her she was welcome to join me in it anytime. I thanked her for sharing her feelings with me and she told me not to get used to it. She told me that when I do things like I did the other day (rearranging the room) I push her even further away from me. It's interesting though because she seems to have these moments of excitement, becomes dramatic, gets some kind of retribution and then gets close to me again. I mean if she didn't care about me she wouldn't fight with me in any way shape or form, but she goes into these interactions with all guns blazing, talking about injustice, etc.

At dinner I reached out for her hand and she put her hand in mine. Our son asked "Daddy, why are you holding her hand?" and I responded "because I love her." He said "Ok, that's a good reason." I think it's good for him to see loving interactions between us even if we aren't going to work out in the long run.

Muddle, a couple of very positive things jumped out at me from this post...I only have a few mins and I hope to comment on some of the things you said in your last post when I get more time...



This is all so fab, I don't know where to start.

She WANTED TO PLEASE YOU!!

She showed you what she had done, WANTING you to be PROUD of her!

WANTING YOUR praise and admiration!!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

And you gave her what she wanted...needed from you.


Awesome job, Muddle!!!

She wanted you to hear how she felt.

You heard her.

Connection attempted and MADE!!!

Wooooo Hooooo!!!



The message she got from your actions, was that you were pushing her away from you.

Good to know.

What did she do after receiving that message?

Reach out to you.

Wanting to connect w/ you.



Yup. She DOES care about you and for you.

Muddle. Please see that.



Awesomeness!!!



It's good for YOU and your WW to see each other wanting to connect w/ each other, pushing past your fears to reach out for each other.

~ Marsh

Thanks for this Marsh, it's good to see that other people see these things as I do. I don't want to be deluding myself that they're more significant than they are. Some more positives to report, and as I don't have much time I'm not sure I'll be able to get it all out.

We had a therapy session this morning, and several things came out. My W talked about her fears having read my journal. We talked about our intentions going forward. She made it clear that she wanted a separation and I was preventing her from getting this. I again stated that we had set up a reasonable timeline for doing this and that I was not stonewalling her. I was not going to fight to keep her captive in this relationship - if she wants to leave she should. But I stated that I believed that the relationship could be repaired. I wasn't working towards convincing my wife of this, but rather I was working to keeping myself open to the possibility that she should choose this path. I was not trying to control her options and I wouldn't stand in her way if she wanted to leave. There was discussion (brought about by my W's many comments about what I think, what I believe, etc., spoken as fact) about how it seems that my wife presents things as me having control and the only way she can obtain any control is to get inside my head and change my beliefs. She is ignoring her own autonomy. There was some really good stuff in this session, including a tiny bit of discussion about the affair. She also brought up a lot about right/wrong, and how she sees me trying to posture as the good guy and make her the bad guy. The therapist wants to revisit this next week as we haven't talked at all about it. But the really positive stuff happened afterwards.

We had a talk afterwards at home in which my W really opened up with me about a lot of her feelings. Most of this was about what she read in the journal and how it made her feel. I think I did a good job listening and I validated her feelings, telling her I completely understood why she felt the way she did. But I also made it clear that the assumptions she drew when she read what she did are not the truth. She thinks that I think she's got a lot of flaws. I told her that I think she's perfect, that she's a human being. Not good, not bad, just human. I told her that I don't want anyone to be the bad guy, I don't want to harbor bad feelings and go on with life having someone that I hate in it because I would be constantly inflicting this on myself. I have to forgive her if I want to get through life this way, but I would prefer that I forgive her and we make a great marriage together than that I forgive her and resign myself to having very limited contact with her. She was far less rigid about her perception of us in the future - even saying on several occassions "if we divorce" and telling me that she wants to be close, she wants to parent under the same roof. I told her that I would be far more open to other arrangements as far as our relationship went if there weren't an affair involved. She was understanding of this point. She then told me about her fear of trying. She said that she was afraid that I would have doubts that she didn't try hard enough, that she might even have these doubts. I told her that I didn't think it was a matter of trying. I told her that I felt that either we both resigned to do it, we committed to doing the work that it takes, and grow and learn in the process, or we didn't. She told me that we might not ever make it to the point where we were both healthy, the relationship was healthy and we were both fulfilled in it. I told her that that was an acceptable risk for me, that I believe we can do it, but it may not be the case. I told her that I want to have a great marriage, whether it be with her or not. I thanked her for sharing, and she told me that it was rewarding to do so when I am open with her the way I was.

I can't get everything down in words here, but it was very positive. Even got a couple of kisses out of it (I leaned in and gave her one and she didn't fight me off and then I asked her for one and she gave it to me). All good stuff. It felt good to connect with her the way we did, and even though she's worried about sending me the wrong message (yes, she said that she was concerned that if she was nice to me it would give me the impression that things could work out) I do have some more external confirmation that my holding out hope for the marriage is not futile. My hope is mine alone, yet it's always nice to see reason for it outside myself.

It's a new day, Muddle.

Brand new.

You and your WW get a clean slate today.(every day you get one.)

Doesn't matter how you saw each other yesterday or a month ago, or last year...

What matters is right now.



If she REALLY wanted to separate, she would do it.



This comes from all the judging you two have been doing to yourselves and to one another.

You know how to fix your part in this.




Giant kudos to you, Muddle!

You were so respectful.

Your WW felt accepted, cared for and loved.



Two kisses!! Oh my!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

LOL

That's so damned awesome!!!

Muddle, your M is far from over, it's just on the verge of soaring...better buckle up!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

~ Marsh

Thanks Marsh. Yes, it's always got to be a clean slate, for myself and for everyone in my life.

I agree that if she wanted to separate she would - if I were abusing her she would be gone so fast. I think it's the only solution to the situation that leaves what she wants intact right now. She said something like this to me. She told me that when she tells me that she wishes I would die she doesn't really mean that she wants harm to come of me, it's just that she sees me as an object that's preventing her from getting what she wants in the situation. She wants to be rid of the problem, not me, yet she sees me as the problem most of the time.

I agree on the judging bit and being aware of this has really had a profound impact on my life in the past few weeks. I know it has really helped me connect with my wife - succeeding in my short term goal.

And it was more than two! But they weren't passionate, connecting kisses. Not that I'm complaining, I just don't want to misconstrue what happened.

I think I can expect a bit of a backlash from this (I guess the distancer - pursuer thing, but more her inner turmoil about where she stands on things is shifting), so I'm not going to get my hopes up as far as my expectations go. We agreed to spend more time together which is another good thing.

Another thing she brought up is that she feels like I am always trying to portray myself as perfect, that I'm always trying to show that I did right. She said that that is one of the things that went wrong in her parents' marriage - that her father never accepted that he was wrong about anything. I told her that I wasn't her father. I acknowledged that I have issues, and one of my issues that might be leading her to come to that conclusion ties into the whole judgement thing. I told her that when she's critical of me my reaction is to become defensive and deflect the attack. Then I replay her judgement of me and try and look for some constructive criticism and apply it to myself. This was dysfunctional because it lead her to believe that she isn't heard because I became defensive. I made it clear to her (in my opinion) that I don't view the situation from the perspective of the good guy waiting for his bad wife to shape up, rather I see us both as humans trying to do our best to be happy in our lives. I see us as equals with equal responsibility in working on ourselves.

This defensiveness leads to adversity - I don't want to have an adversarial relationship with my wife. During our session, the therapist stated that we were heading towards this sort of a split. She told my W that documenting things in my journal was normal for people heading in that direction. This is where we are heading. I don't want to go this route but I need to be sure that should action be initiated - and I'm not talking about my W plotting an attack on me, but rather the two of us having different opinions about what's best for our son - I am prepared. What a tricky position to be in.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Several kisses!!!

Wonder what might be next... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

LOL



More time together is GREAT.

There is no "distance pursuer dance" to SHARING.

...which is what you did today.

You saw how sharing is not arguing, or discussing and it's not resentful.

You can choose to live side by side, healing and growing together.

Not trying to fix, or control each other.

But, speaking to understand... taking care not to love bust, DJ, assume stuff, seeking to get clarity.

Sharing....connecting....

Loving.




This is also where giving up judgments will help her.

Right and wrong....good and bad

You did well today when you explained that you view the both of you as humans who are doing your best.

Acceptance and respect is the healing balm.




Find what standard you're breaking when you choose to be defensive when you hear or feel criticized.

Is it respect for yourself by not enforcing a boundary?

Is it not being open and honest?

Hold yourself to your standard.

Make corrections and ammends when you fail.

No shoulds or shouldn'ts... only wants.

(Not, I should be honest, but I WANT to be honest.)

It helps take the judgment out of it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


This is such an important awareness to have.

When you feel yourself getting defensive figure out why.

Did you just let her cross a boundary?

Or are you FEELING rejected/fearful b/c of another reason...

Look underneath the feeling.




Not necessarily.

But, I believe it is a good thing that your WW knows you are thinking along these lines.

It's good that you got all this out in the open.

~ Marsh

Oh no - you didn't go there!! LOL. After a full year of celibacy, I can't get my hopes up. Especially since it's usually the last thing to return. I do think that focusing on sharing and connecting will help to resolve some of the issues we had in this area before the affair. Hope I get to find out whether this is true or not.

Yes, all really good stuff.

Yes, this is likely the area where OM was coming out way ahead of me. She felt judged whether I was doing it or not, but the fact is that I was doing it and she got enough confirmation from me that I was. Now that she knows I'm not, she knows how I see her truly, things are different. My mother told me that my aunt told her that OM is very critical of my W. Of course he's critical of me too. I couldn't get any clarification on what exactly this means, but I think he may be judging her, trying to fix her, rescue her.

I want to be open. I want to be a good listener. I can't be either of those things if I allow the feelings of rejection and self doubt that I create when I cooperate with this criticism overwhelm the real important thing in the interaction: the connection. There are a lot of other standards I want to enforce that play into this as well, but that's the primary focus right now.

I think I put my finger on it above, but there's also this sense of justice that leads me to react this way. I think to myself "why are you focusing on me and my actions when you should focus on your own?" I'm in her stuff, judging her motivations, whether she should be trying to do what she is. Also, I have this idea that I'm right in focusing on what I'm focusing on (which is myself) and I think everyone should abide by this code, so if she isn't I want to change her, fix her. She has a right to be wrong! Of course there is no right or wrong - the point is that I want to respect her autonomy, and I think I have done that in the past (this is something that has been thrown in my face - her blaming me for her state of mind, her situation relative to her choices because I allowed her to make poor choices) because I respected that she made her own choices and though I gave my input I didn't stand in the way of something she chose.

I agree. There are a lot of signs to the contrary. Even the therapist said to us when we first started "things seem different between the two of you - you are looking at each other with a lot of affection" to which W responded "oh I don't feel that at all, I feel a lot of resentment." I do think it's important that she knows I'm thinking this way too to a certain degree. I think there needs to be a certain degree of realism when looking to that possible path into the future.

How 'bout showing your WW that you were thinking about her, by picking up her favorite flower, candy (snack), or cereal?

This will meet her EN for affection.



Yup, this is what I saw as well.



Yes, now that she knows you REALLY accept her, you can move onto admiring her.

Her abilities and accomplishments.

I'd guess this is her number one EN.

Also, w/ regards to her expressing her disappointments w/ herself goes, your job is to let her know that you have confidence in her to figure out how to solve it. Ask her if she knows how you can help her w/ it... instead of asking what you can do... This will put the responsibilty on HER shoulders...so she won't be able to blame you for not knowing what to do. You show confidence in her ability to figure it out.

This will be meeting her EN for acceptance/admiration again.

And it is VERY respectful.



Good.

Criticism is a HUGE LB.



Great.

And you know when you are in one of those moments where you are feeling rejected, say so. "I'm feeling rejected right now." No DJ there. You aren't blaming your WW, you're just stating your feelings. Acknowledging your feelings helps to lessen them. Plus you are sharing.

Saying, "I want to hear what you're saying. I want to understand, and be open to you, but I'm feeling fear right now." is respectful and honest. You are stating what you want and you are owning your feelings. It's all good.

```````````````````````````````

OK, Muddle, I want to press you some about your not making a boundary when it comes to her A.

How are you showing respect for yourself and your M by allowing her to call and communicate w/ him in your home?


~ Marsh

This is something I often do. I do the shopping most often and I pick up her favorites often. I think I need to do something a little different to show her that I'm going out of my way to do so, but I don't want to come off like I'm trying too hard. It's the little things, isn't it? Affection to me is physical (not necessarily sexual) but it's not for her. I think you're helping me see how I can be affectionate in a way that she sees as affectionate and not just the way I want it.


I think you're right - about both her number one need and that her perception of my insincerity is the biggest obstacle to meeting this need. I compliment her all the time - her accomplishments, her appearance, etc. I will focus on this.


This is a good way of handling this.


I really need to avoid pointing out something that she's doing. Instead I need to express my feelings. For the most part I do this, but often I feel attacked and I don't know how to express my feelings. Last time this happened I told her that "I feel trampled on" which isn't really a feeling. I think it conveyed the message, but it still put the blame on the person doing the trampling. Not sure where to go with this, but awareness and practice will help.


I don't allow or disallow her to do anything. I don't have any control over her, nor do I want to want it (though I do at times - especially during this situation). I don't really know how to establish a boundary here because I don't want to make ultimatums and I don't want to attempt to control her. How do I create a boundary (which I understand to mean that I won't put up with treatment of me that I percieve as abusive - I remove myself for the situation in order to protect this boundary) when she doesn't do it in front of me? How do I enforce a boundary of this nature without creating an adversarial situation and a power struggle undoing a lot of the good work that has been done? The benefits of the work is clear - she's calling me during the day now, spending time with me, appreciating my company, etc. This problem is further complicated by the fact that I have not set a boundary so the precedent is set that I accept what I do. Now if I try and establish a boundary where there was none previously it will be far more difficult to establish and enforce. What do you suggest?

Muddle, I think you will want to continue to kiss her, hold her hand, hug ect...but you can ALSO meet her need for affection by doing and giving thoughtful things to her. If she says she's cold, turn up the heat...give her a blanket. If she has a headache bring her aspirins. All of these things show her affection. If the weather turns colder buy her a sweater and tell her you want to be sure she's warm. If a snow storm is coming, buy her new snow boots, gloves, hat.

OM can't do any of these things.



It might feel unnatural to you to begin giving in this way, but you have a giving spirit, it's just that he's not used to giving in this way. This isn't about changing who you are. It's about waking up parts of you that have been sleeping and inactive of late.

Start off small if you like, but keep it up. I think it's kinda fun thinking up ways of demonstrating affection and then following through w/ it.

You are stretching in order to strengthen your M, and meet your standards for being thoughtful, kind, and loving.



OK, if you're feeling "trampled on" then chances are you are allowing her to cross a boundary. When this happens tell her you need to figure out why you are angry and tell her you'll be back to continue the conversation in 30 mins.

That way you can take a break and get clarity of what you're feeling and why.



Who pays the bills, Muddle?

Can you have his number blocked from your phone?

Can you call your phone company and tell them to prevent any long distance phone calls being made from your home?

Can you stop paying for the internet services?

You aren't controlling her.

She can STILL go outside your home to call him.



It won't undo the work you've done.

It will build upon it.

Now, she might choose to get angry.

And may pull back again.

But, your choice to continue sharing and connecting w/ her will be difficult for her to ignore.

You've read Pep's Plan A right?

Plan A has a carrot part and a stick part.



Today is a new day, remember?

Today, you wish to respect yourself and your marriage.

You can say, "Honey, I see how I failed to respect our marriage and myself. And I want to change that. I don't want you to continue w/ this A. I know I can't stop you from doing as you choose to do, but I don't have to support it financially any longer. So, I'm going to do this that and the other thing."

I'm not telling you this is what you SHOULD do, I'm only telling you this is something you could consider doing.

The more you respect yourself by making choices that reflect that, the less resentments you'll have.


~ Marsh

I understand where you're coming from with regard to establishing boundaries. If I disconnect the internet then she doesn't have the ability to work or to use it for legitimate purposes - nor do I. I suppose I could block certain websites or IP addresses, but I'm not sure I'm willing to do battle over this while things seem to be improving. She's opening up a lot and she will undoubtably withdraw should I attack the affair. It's a strong statement that I'm not willing to live a prisoner of my own fear any longer, and I see your point, I'm just not sure exactly how to approach it.

The trouble I have had with setting a boundary of this type is that the only real leverage I have for getting her to stop in the house is to give her some sort of ultimatum. This is because it's up to her to abide by this. If I were to prevent her from carrying on the affair by cancelling the cable, then that does away with this. Yet I still want her to decide to stop on her own - but this doesn't prevent her from making this decision because she can still talk to him away from home, it just takes away the convenience, the accessability.

The other issue I have is that because it's OUR home, not mine, I can't really use that "I pay the bills" leverage precisely because I do see us as equals contributing to the household in different ways.

I need to give this some more thought. Develop a plan. The last thing I want to do is to spring something on her and have her feel like she's been stabbed in the back (even though she'll react this way regardless) while we seem to be rebuilding a bit of trust.

Muddle - this is a war and you are enabling her affair by your allowing it to proceed unimpeded in your own home.

You are a serf and you need to become a knight.

Are you really that desperate to keep your openly wayward wife in your home? Hoping she will stop on her own? Hope is not a plan.

When she is on the phone, stand next to her and ask her to keep her affair conversation out of your house because that is disrespectful.

Have you done a Plan A? if so What is your timetable for Plan B?

Women do not respect men they can walk over (ie your WW does not respect you) and they cannot love men they do not respect.

Thanks for your input BK. I am not desperate to keep her in my home - she's welcome to leave whenever she'd like. I would like her here though. The same goes for her in my life. As I said before, I don't have opportunity to confront her while she's communicating because she does it while I'm out. This is why I would have to disable the internet, or something of that nature, which would eliminate valid uses of this resource. Is it better to just do what I'm going to do and then tell her what I've done and why or should I tell her that I don't want any more contact in the house and if she doesn't comply then use additional measures? The latter sounds more controlling to me, but if she sees that she has a choice in the matter it might be perceived as less so.

I have done what I thought was a plan A - in fact I've been in it for a long time - but I haven't made the progress I've needed to. I have met a lot of my goals, but my progress in meeting her needs seems to be really improving in the past few weeks. I don't want to stunt this now - and I think that things are really improving to the point where plan B will be started on a really high note, rather than where it would have been started months ago. At the moment I don't have a plan b timeline. I need to get some legal advice before I can figure out the details of a plan B.

If she's not tech savy, you can disable it so she can't use it and re-enable it when you are home.

You should not finance or facilitate her affair in any way.

As my friend Bob Pure is fond of sayng.... "What would you do if you were not afraid?"

So I need to work on the stick part of plan A I guess. I haven't directly confronted my W about it in a long time (although it has recently come up several times). When it has I have voiced my feelings, not just stuffed them and moved on. The one time we were working together downstairs and she wrote him an email I told her that I felt disrespected. She got really upset telling me that she was really feeling bad and needed to get something off of her chest, otherwise she wouldn't have written in front of me. She still tries to hide that she's carrying on with him. I will confront her anytime I see it from now on and make it clear that I don't want this going on in my house. I still haven't decided how I will move on something more definite such as cutting off the service.

Am I handling this in a respectful way?

As I'm leaving to return to the office at lunch I go downstairs to say goodbye to the family. W asks if we can buy a bookcase this weekend for the pile of books that is sitting on the floor. This is from the other day when she decided to get "revenge" on me by fixing up the downstairs - she took all the books out of the bookcase and moved it and filled it with our son's books and games. I responded that I didn't think we had the money to buy something this weekend, but I would be happy to sit with her later this evening to evaluate this and think of an alternative plan. She got upset telling me that she feels there is always money to do something when I wanted to do it (I validated her feelings by telling her that I understood how she could feel this way rather than getting defensive). She told me that I didn't care, that she should put the books in my room so that I would have to care. I told her that I do care and I am planning on addressing it with her later. She said that she thought the books were going to stay right where they are - in what I felt was a real dig at me. I told her that I was confident that we could find a solution together later and that I really had to head back to work. At the very least we could find a temporary place to store them until we get a bookcase and make a plan to save the money. She responded that maybe she wouldn't feel like talking about it later. I told her that that was her choice. She told me: "I forgot, I'm a second class citizen in this house." I responded that that was true only if she made it so. She told me I had to accept that I was making it so, and that I was blaming it all on her. She also made a few allusions to the "fact" that I had all the control.

In the situation I was probably acting on several assumptions:
1. that she was manipulating me to try and get her way - she had a solution (getting a bookcase) and this was the only option. The only way she could get what she wanted was to convince me. She put all the power in my control and saw the only way of getting power to be manipulating me.
2. she's posturing as the victim in order to gain control and this fits into the bigger picture. Her fog position is that I'm this controlling person and her way of making this true is by handing her power to me and acting like I'm taking it.
3. she's angry about something else and she's making this the issue - because my response was reasonable given the circumstances.

So of course I respond to this situation to the best of my ability, but it results in me making judgements, being defensive, shutting down our connection and resenting her. Of course I didn't communicate my feelings because I was in such a rush to get back to work (my already late goodbye ended up taking several minutes). Some of my resentment is because of the lack of respect for my time. Some of the resentment is because I felt she was trying to control me instead of having a direct conversation and respecting my autonomy. Any thought about how I handled this? Any insight into what may be going on that I'm not recognizing?

Perfect.



She must not have heard you state that you would discuss this LATER.


Right here is where you chose not to respect your boundaries.

You could have restated your boundary. "Honey, we can talk about this later, NOT now. Cya."




She continued trying to pursuade you to her way of thinking.



Continued dialogue even though you didn't want to.




She continued expressing her concerns.



There's an assumption here, what is it?



OK....but then you....



Continued to discuss it, even after you said you had to leave....again.



She continued discussing b/c YOU were discussing.



Great reply, BUT you're still discussing when you said you wanted to do this later!




LOL

She wants a bookcase.

She's not convinced there is another solution that will suit her.



YIKES!!! Did you get in her stuff here!



In her stuff again.

Why can't this JUST be about the bookcase?



It's very difficult for you to disappoint her, isn't it? You'd rather be disappointed or hurt yourself, wouldn't you?



Who was responsible for enforcing your boundary of leaving when you needed to?



Her wanting the bookcase and your not being able to agree to buy one, gave her permission to complain and blame.

You have to look under your feeling of being controlled and see what your fear is. Why does her choice to blame you make you feel pressured or controlled?

~ Marsh

Thanks - this is exactly what I needed to hear. I did continue a conversation I didn't want to because I wanted to please her. I didn't want to leave her disappointed yet I couldn't give her what she wanted.


That she thinks I'm a messy person (bad in her mind) and am ok with a pile or mess sitting somewhere indefinitely.


Yes I know, but I guess I resent the WAY she's going about trying to get it. Why am I judging this? I have no control over how she communicates her desires and my resentment wont change her. In fact there's something I admire in her craftiness - I should be focusing on this.


I'm making her and/or me the problem, not the actual problem of the bookcase aren't I? Blah.


I want her to be pleased and happy. This is part of the codependancy issue, that I want to make her happy and don't respect her autonomy enough to let her be happy on her own. I'm not sure about being disappointed or hurt myself. I don't think anyone should have to sacrifice in a relationship. I think we can both be pleased and happy. I'm interested to hear what you're getting at by suggesting that I'd rather be hurt or disappointed.


I showed her that it didn't need to be respected because I didn't respect it myself.


Good question. I think I'm somehow afraid of being defined a certain way. I'm handing her the power to define me just as I'm handing the power to respect boundaries to her. Somehow I think that if I give her this power and she abuses it she's to blame for abusing it. I guess it's another way of building a defensive wall between us rather than connecting. Boundaries are so critical.

Craftiness ------> DJ

She's not good at handling her emotions...in this case disappointment.

You're not good at handling other people's disappointments in you.

Do you see how the choices you both make are hurting each others opportunity to grow as people?



You don't want her to be unhappy w/ you.

There's a fear under this. What is it?



Earlier you said this...



Do you see how you are willing to suffer, (allow her to cross your boundary) in order to try to manage her disappointments( Cross her personal boundary)?



Look deeper. Why would being defined a certain way frighten you?



Yup. Both ways.

Good fences make good neighbors.

Same in relationships.

~ Marsh