Yes - I need to address what I'm not good at and not take responsibility for managing her emotions (what she's not good at). Once we both have our focus on our own stuff, we can grow and improve.


We are going through an interesting time with our son right now. His preschool teacher has voiced concerns about his not being normal. She clearly thinks something's not right with him. We have had him evaluated and it turns out that he's gifted. He's not normal. The teacher is so concerned that his being different is going to cause problems for him that she wants to change him to make him fit in better. As a result of this my W and I have been doing a fair amount of research on being gifted and the challenges, etc. We both have looked back on our own experience in school. One of the pervasive issues with gifted children is a sense of shame. I can attest to having this feeling growing up. I was always different. I was always an outsider. I used to attribute this to the fact that I have triplet brothers 3 years younger, so I was never in the club. But I think it is more universal in my life. I was different, "better" in some ways (which I had to hide often in order to fit in) and "worse" in other ways because I was awkward. So there is still this residual feeling of shame for being different. I do accept myself now after having gone through a difficult time in adolescence. Another thing that I think my having "pretending" to be "normal" does is make me feel like a fraud. So I have a fear that I'm a fraud - you've seen me talk about this before - because in some ways I was. So there's this fear that I'm not good enough because of who I am, and that I'm pretending to be someone I'm not and I'll be exposed for it. Totally irrational beliefs, and they conflict with what I choose to believe now - that all people are equal, great, whole but they each possess different attributes that are better suited to certain tasks, lifestyles, etc, than others. None better than any other. Better suited, but there's no difference in intrinsic value between people.

Then again, I'm not sure if this is something that really comes into play in our relationship or if it's just something that I'm working through that isn't relevant.


Yes, and tied up in this is her losing respect for me everytime I sacrifice myself for her.

Just when I thought things were starting to go well I get the "I can't get you to see that we just don't work together. It's because you want to believe otherwise."

We had a nice run of it over the past week or so, but I guess the rollercoaster in back on a down swing. We went out today and looked for a bookshelf. Couldn't find one. Went to lunch. Afterwards went to a dealership across the street. The dealership visit was less than ideal. It took far longer than it should have. WW was mad at me and just frustrated in general afterwards. She told me that I don't know her after 6 years because I didn't know that she wanted to leave. She said that she doesn't like the fact that the only way she gets a response out of me is if she ****** at me. I told her that I feel this is usually the first thing I get from her, I don't get a request or statement from her. She agreed and told me that she has found what works, so why do things any other way. She was angry that we went to eat when she wasn't hungry (she agreed to go). She was annoyed that we didn't go to another store to look for a bookcase. She was annoyed because we did what I wanted to do.

Basically, in my interpretation of what happened, I screwed up because although we agreed on what we were doing, she was less than enthusiastic. But - and I don't want to come across as if I'm blaming my wife for this (it's not really a great sign that I'm concerned about this or that I think this way, is it?) but I feel like she goes along with whatever I suggest and then blames me when she doesn't have a good time. She's putting all the responsibility for her feelings on me. She could have told me directly that she wanted to leave the dealership. She could have told me she wanted to go somewhere else, but instead she sucked it up and got angry at me (and held it against me) that my judgement wasn't what hers was. I feel like she trapped me because she was testing me. I don't think I should have to make sure my needs AND her needs are taken care of in planning a day without her input on what her needs are.

The problem is that I can't change the way she approaches a situation. She's unhappy with the way things turned out and she didn't take responsibility for her own happiness. She puts responsibility on me and then blames me for her unhappiness. I am to blame in some ways (I should have been more attentive to her subtleties - but I was looking out for myself more than for us all) and I want to approach situations like this differently so that this doesn't happen any more. I talked with my W about it and she told me that this is a pattern of behavior from me and that it's who I am and I can't change it, etc., etc., etc. I told her that we could prevent situations like this from happening if we agree to only do something if we both enthusiastically agree to it. This way neither of us are sacrificing our wants. But we have to really own our wants and not go into a situation resenting the other person for what we agreed to do. I mean when she said what she did about going to eat because it's what I wanted to do I was floored. She agreed to go to eat and then I find out that she resented me for this! And then she's trying to prove the point that we don't work together all the time. This frustrates me because of course we won't work together well if that's not a goal of hers. But I can't make us work together alone, it takes two people contributing to it.

I guess I'm just a bit down from the experience. I had my company party last night and all day W was ambivalent about coming. She finally backed out. I went alone and it turns out that I won an award. She was excited for me when I texted her. She texted me a couple of times, finally when I was leaving telling me that she was going to try and stay awake because she wanted to hear all about it. She was sorry she missed it. She seemed really genuinely happy, and things did seem to be much better over the past week or so. I know that it's just a bad day, but it's frustrating when I'm being blamed for a bad situation (what defines it as bad for me is my W's bad feelings coming away from it - this in itself isn't really right, is it?), and I feel like in order to better manage a situation like that I would have to judge my wife more. I would have to read her and make assumptions. Can't move in that direction, but I can't force her to take responsibility for her own unhappiness - her step towards being responsible for her negative feelings is to get away from the person that's causing them rather than trying to figure out how to better navigate these patterns. Patterns of behavior should be that much easier to resolve because they're regular and predictable - but she prefers to see them as a part of who I am and unchangable.

So I guess I'm scared that if she is unhappy with the way a situation plays out - that if she has bad feelings as a result of something we do together - that she'll want to end the relationship. Yet I'm not scared enough to totally submit and ignore my own wants and needs in order to focus on hers. I don't know if I'm somehow passive-aggressively ignoring things that she wants because I resent her deep down and want to hurt her as she claims I am or if I am meeting her where halfway should be, stating my desires and intentions and because she doesn't voice her own, doing the only thing that's out there on the table. I get into such an emotional fog when these things happen. I feel like she lets me in on this world where I'm this horrible presence, and she's been watching me, seething, while I do what I do completely aloof to what she thinks I should be, or rather, doing the wrong things.

I have been doing better regarding boundaries though. Yesterday I took a little longer than I told her I would to make lunch and when I went to talk to her she got upset and started letting me have it. She was getting nasty with me asking me what the plans were now, so I told her I was going to take a shower and signed off the conversation with this and went upstairs. She kept trying to pull me back into the conversation and got nasty as I walked up the stairs, but I didn't continue. I was done. Later when I spoke with her about it I apologized for not having been more clear with her that I was done (because she was upset that I continued to walk away while she was still talking, but to argue about the conversation being finished would have been violating my own boundary).

She's telling you what she believes, why is that a bad thing?



I thought you said you couldn't afford one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />



What was your reply to this?



Where your ownership in this dynamic?



How did you feel when she was expressing these feelings and thoughts?




How was this YOUR screw up?

Did she agree to go and look for a bookcase or not?




Yup! I agree, except I believe her biggest issue w/ you, is that you are unable to mind read.

How do you usually handle this w/ her?



Nope, neither do I.

So why do you feel trapped?



THIS right here, is why she continues to expect you to read her mind.

Why do you believe you are responsible for knowing what she's thinking or feeling through subtleties?

Subtleties can be read in a million different ways. If she looks upset, how are you supposed to know whether that is b/c she's got a wedgy or b/c she doesn't want to be there anymore? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />



Good.

So what are you going to do differently?



This wouldn't eliminate her expectation for you to mind read though.



Of course you were floored. You weren't able to read her mind.



I believe she would like it very much if you both could work together well.

Many women equate mind reading to being loved.

What can you do about this, Muddle?



Why do you expect to be more than human?

No human can mind read, Muddle.



Did you tell her how much you wanted her to go w/ you? Or did you hide how much you wanted her to come w/ you?



Congrats. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


This is good stuff.



Here's what you're doing, Muddle, you're WW tells you her feelings and you leave your personal boundaries and cross into hers, pick up her feelings and beliefs and bring them back into your boundaries where they can hurt you.

Then in order to try to ease the pain you crawl inside your WW's stuff and start judging her stuff and trying to manipulate her feelings... when all you need to do is quit bringing her feelings back inside your personal boundary and space.




That's right you can't.

But you can choose to allow her to be disappointed in you. Allow it. Respect her choice to.

Embrace your fear, Muddle.





HUGE KUDOS for your awareness and honesty here.

You feel unsafe when she is disappointed w/ you.

And you want to change her feelings, correct?

But, you know you shouldn't be trying to manipulate her feelings don't you? You know she has to learn how to process her own bad feelings. ALONE.

And you need to embrace your fear of having disappointed her. Feel it. Don't fight it, or push it away. Trace it back to when you first felt that fear...where you first believed that you could only be loved by EARNING it.

Is that true, Muddle? Are we only loved by others when we earn it? Do you love your wife b/c she earns it? Or do you love her b/c you CHOOSE to?

Do you need to earn her love?

Or can she choose to love you b/c you are you.... Wonderful, unique and loveable?



You didn't enforce a boundary. You w/drew.

If you wanted to enforce a boundary in a respectful way, you'd have stated the behavior she was doing that you weren't going to accept from her. "Please stop speaking to me like that." If she continued to do it it, you then tell her that if she does not stop doing it, you will leave the room for x number of mins. (she needs to know a time when you would be back to finish the conversation.) And then if she continues to cross your stated boundary then you leave.

W/drawing w/o explaining your boundary or letting the other person know when you'll be back is punishing...not respectful.



Right. You realized that something was missing from your attempt at boundary enforcement. Good job.

~ Marsh

It's not - but I don't like that she seems to be trying to prove this point all the time (although the fact she IS doing this means she's probably not entirely convinced of it either, doesn't it?). I guess I feel somewhat intimidated when I hear things like this because it makes me feel like there's so far to go before we get to the point where we can rebuild. I'm assuming something that doesn't really work in my best interest. I don't know either way, but I'm choosing defensive pessimism which basically ensures I'll be right. In this case I'd rather take the chance of only having a small percentage chance to be right, but actually really want what it is I'd be right about.

Um, yeah, well I assumed here that it would be a fair chunk of change, but in the evening on Friday W told me that she'd be fine with a $30 one from K-mart. One of the reasons I wanted to postpone the conversation w/W was because I knew I didn't have information I needed - getting that information would have dispelled this assumption I made.


I told her that she hadn't informed me of this. She said that she didn't have the opportunity to do so, but that I should have picked up on her cues. I told her that she looked uncomfortable at a certain point, but that I didn't leap to the conclusion that she wanted to go.


Good question. I can't really respond to her when she directly communicates her feelings if she wont do so. I'm not really sure what part I played in this. I may not have responded to her, but I tend to think that she didn't really communicate clearly. Often she masks her feelings or her wants and I don't grasp the intensity of her feelings. I get the impression she's annoyed about something, but she hasn't communicated anything. I should probe to get a better idea what's going on with her - but when I do this I get met with the same "you don't know me" and she gets upset and shuts me out.


I felt betrayed. I felt like she had agreed to stuff and then blamed me for doing what she agreed to as if I should have known better than to accept her agreement at face value. I felt frustrated, sad, a little scared, a bit mad. I was on the defensive. I felt a bit impotent too, like I couldn't do anything in the situation. I did agree with her when she attacked me, and I guess I attacked myself a bit too. Not only could I not do anything to turn the situation around at present, but I felt condemned for my actions that I couldn't change.


Because things didn't go right. Because she was unhappy. Because I didn't do a better job. It's not really though. She's a big girl and has as much control over navigating the situation. She has as much ability to determine what we do and how we do it as I do, and just because she makes the choice to follow me around and criticizes me for how I do things doesn't mean it's my fault. But my actions, at points, weren't considerate.



I'm not really sure. I usually point out that she agreed to do what we did - I didn't make her do anything, and she didn't suggest anything different. I always feel like my pointing out where she could have changed the course of events - pointing out her responsibility and empowering her by helping her see the power that she's throwing away - comes across as blame. I don't blame her, but MY pointing it out does little to no good. The issue of her not standing up for herself and asking for what she wants is something that we've discussed in therapy, and even though we went over it, she STILL thinks I'm to blame when she doesn't get what she wants and doesn't ask for it.


I guess I feel trapped because I want to pass her tests, yet I think she's testing me for something that's unrealistic. No win situation. She ends up having a bad time because she chooses not to communicate her needs (even when asked about them, mind you) and I end up the bad guy.


I agree with your point here. A lot of what I've read on relationships talks about the differences in the ways men and women communicate. Men are direct, women tend to communicate on many different levels - more subtle things like body language, etc. I think I should work to communicate better in her style, and I think expecting her to communicate the way I see as appropriate is somewhat unreasonable. I'm willing to say that I can stand to improve on how attentive I am to subtle cues, however, I can't mindread, and I will never get to that point. So I guess I'm willing to meet her halfway regarding the differences in how we communicate. I'm happy to learn and grow for the benefit of relating better, but if she's using this willingness to justify standing her ground and not stepping towards the middle too, then I can't really help that.


I'm really not sure. I think I need to go into the planning stages expecting that my W won't be very vocal about what she wants. I will make my usual suggestions and I will get a response from her. I will weigh this verbal response against the enthusiasm I seem to get from her, and tell her exactly the way I'm reading her. Then if she agrees that she really wants to do what we talked about, we'll do it. I also will remind her that I'm not going to respond to ANY subtle cues - if she wants to say something to me she's going to have to find a way to do so whether we decide on a gesture that will will indicate the need to go somewhere more private and talk, or she shouts what she wants across the room.


How much control over her expectations can I really have? If I discuss her wants/needs, then I'm a failure, yet if I don't and she doesn't get what she wants then I'm a failure too. Although, I've been doing really well thinking up nice things to give her, and I think this helps offset that a little.


I believe that she would like it too. Last night I spoke with her on the phone (shortly after posting here) and she told me that she didn't know what to do about dinner. I was at my parents' with our son for dinner. I told her that I understood the pressure this put on her, but that I had total confidence in her ability to solve the problem. I told her that I was available as a resource should she think of a way I could be helpful. She responded in a very positive way to this. Later, when I got home, I picked up dinner for her and we had a nice evening together. I told her that I thought we had just had a bad day, and her response really surprised me. She said that she didn't think it was even that bad, and that she had had the temptation to just say F it about the whole relationship, but she stopped herself and decided to try some more. She has been trying to get along (I'm not really sure of the motivation, but she's doing it and that's all that matters) and this is a good sign to me. She even blew me a kiss at one point.

I think I can continue to work at getting things for her that mean something to her. I think this will satisfy her need in this area, showing that I'm considerate and I think of her and want her to have nice things, and then make it clear that I'm not able to mind read in situations where she appears to be expecting it of me.


Well put. How do I stop doing this? I sort of equate not bringing her feelings into my space as not really caring about them and her. I see it as empathy, feeling what she's feeling, but you're right, it's not done in a healthy way.




You're right - if I feel fear I need to prevent myself from acting on it. It's everything that's built up around fear that causes all the problems. All the defense mechanisms end up preventing connection rather than just preventing pain.


You know this is interesting to me. I read a book by Erich Fromm called The Art of Loving - really good book. In it he mentions that he believes fathers and mothers love their child differently, each teaching them a different way of loving. Mothers love unconditionally and fathers conditionally. When read this I thought about the way my W and I love each other, and I thought that I was loving her unconditionally, and she loved me conditionally. I thought that we could both stand to move more towards the center on that. Now that I read what you wrote, I'm starting to realize that it has more to do with the way I love myself relative to my W's input. I am assuming that her dissapointment means that she's withholding her love from me, and I feel alienated and alone, like I desperately need it back. It's something I'm doing to myself. On the other hand, I am starting to see that my W feels the same way about me - something that I couldn't really understand because here I am, standing for the marriage, loving her unconditionally, right? Yet, I'm starting to see that I responded to her mistreating me by shutting her out, withdrawing, and she probably felt the same way, that I was withholding my love for her. I've got to accept that her feelings don't mean anything in my space other than that someone I care about is feeling someway somehow. I have been assigning personal value to her feelings - saying if she's unahappy then our relationship is in danger, and I'm unsafe, so I've got to do something - and then I act to try and control the symptom. I feel that I love my W because she is who she is. I don't think it's conditional. I feel that I don't get any love unless I earn it from her. My actions in this dynamic indicate that I believe I have to earn love even though I don't believe I should.


Thank you, I will try this. I certainly don't want to punish her, but I can't help being curious about how enforcing a boundary the way you suggested isn't punishment in its own way.

As always, thanks for your enormous contributions!

She said:"I can't get you to see that we just don't work together. It's because you want to believe otherwise."

She wants you to agree w/ her that you two don't work together, [right now.]

Do you think you two DO work together right now?

Do you hear, "We'll NEVER work well together" Instead of, "We don't work together (right now)."?

You said: She told me that I don't know her after 6 years because I didn't know that she wanted to leave.

I asked: What was your reply to this?

You said: I told her that she hadn't informed me of this. She said that she didn't have the opportunity to do so, but that I should have picked up on her cues. I told her that she looked uncomfortable at a certain point, but that I didn't leap to the conclusion that she wanted to go.

Muddle, what's wrong w/ admitting that you don't know your WW?

Aren't we constantly changing? Growing? Learning? Becoming new every day?

I don't want my DH to ALREADY know me. I don't want him to think there's nothing new about me that's worth discovering. I don't want him to think he has me all figured out...put in a box.

What's wrong w/ saying, "Honey, you're 100% correct, I don't know you. You are a wonderful perplexing, complicated, facinating, mystery to me. And I'm going to quit pretending that I know you. I WANT to know you. I want you to share all your thoughts, feelings, hopes and dreams w/ me. I want to spend the rest of my life getting to know you, discovering things about you every day."?



No, Muddle, you don't need to learn how to read her "cues" better.

If your WW has her arms crossed and a frown on her face, you've noticed that she looks like she may be upset.(She might be cold) How are you supposed to know how she feels?

Ask her.

Say, "You seem upset about something, are you?"

If she says, "Yes, I wanted to go an hour ago! And I can't believe you didn't KNOW that!"

You say: Wow, You're right, I didn't know you wanted to leave an hour ago. I wonder why you chose not to say anything earlier...Oh well, I'm glad you told me now, let's get out of here, Sweetie."

Ask her.

If she tells you she expected you to know she was unhappy, tell her, that you believe it is more loving and respectful for you NOT to assume to know what her feelings are.

Tell her you want VERY much to know what her thoughts and feelings are, but you want to learn what they are from her own sweet mouth.



Well done!!!

You met lots of EN's there. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



Do you see that her belief that you two don't work together and her feelings of disappointment weren't as big a deal as you thought they were?

She's CHOOSING to love you, Muddle. She doesn't believe you need to EARN her love.

You know your WW doesn't EARN your love. Inspite of what she's done, you still CHOOSE to love her.

And inspite of her believing you disappointed her she is CHOOSING you! CHOOSING to reach out to you...connect w/ you....love you.

Please see this.




Feel the fear you feel when she tells you her feelings of disappointment. Ask yourself why you feel it. Where is the fear coming from?

Is it coming from that old belief that you have that we EARN love? That if she's unhappy w/ you, she will not love you. Question that belief, Muddle.

There's LOTS of judgment in it.



B/c you believe you EARN love, when ever your WW expresses disappointment w/ you or the relationship you fear she not going to love you.

When you feel fear, you color the world w/ it. You see her actions bolstering your belief that love is EARNED. You see her w/drawal as proof that your belief is correct. When in reality her choice to w/draw from you is probably due to her own fear....not related to your belief at all.



EXACTLY!

Muddle, your WW doesn't love you b/c of what you do or don't do. She CHOOSES to love you... the same as you CHOOSE to love her.



It isn't punishing to respect yourself, Muddle.

It isn't punishing to tell someone that you will not accept something from them.

If your WW was hitting you w/ a frying pan and you left the room, how is THAT punishing her?

~ Marsh

I have agreed that we are not working right now, but I have made it clear that I think this is something temporary, something we can overcome. She believes that this is because our core personalities don't work together and they won't change, nor should we have to change who we are in order to work together.


Yes, and it's not just my interpretation of what she's saying, it's what she is actually saying. I have a difficult time not trying to argue over the "rightness" of beliefs when I feel her beliefs are the obstacle to doing what's right in the situation. I know this is manipulation, and I know it's not right, but I still feel the urge to invalidate her beliefs (whether I do it or not).


I think on a deep level I'm afraid that if I acknowledge that I see some of the facts that she uses to support her beliefs, I'll be supporting her beliefs, and agreeing that the conclusions she's drawing about the only solution being divorce is really the truth. More fear induced manipulation. She has her beliefs, and she has every right to her beliefs. They are convenient to hold right now, but I have a lot of faith in her as a person, and I think she will likely hold beliefs more similar to mine in the future once the real motivation for her holding these beliefs is gone.

I also agree that not only do I not know my wife, I question whether I will ever know her. I question whether one can ever really know another person - knowing ourselves is so difficult, and that's critical to understanding another person.


There's nothing wrong with this. In fact, the more I can agree with her, the more of an ally I'll be. The less of a threat I'll be. I had reasons for disputing her beliefs - I wanted her to be wrong and I didn't want to give her any support for anything that she used to support her beliefs. This is disrespectful. I should evaluate what she's saying against what I believe and respond, not evaluate it against what I believe she believes and respond in a way that will change her beliefs or at the very least not support the beliefs she holds. Wow.


Ok, so then I will respond to cues by telling her that she seems upset and asking why, not ignoring them and thinking that she should speak up.


Yeah, I see her making the choice. I also see that I made a bigger deal out of things than I should have. I think that she holds both beliefs though, that she can choose to love and that I need to earn her love and make her want to be where she is.


I do see this, but I question whether I'm just twisting the facts to suit my agenda - if I'm seeing courtesy and kindness as loving just because I want to see it. So I'm skeptical - this doesn't mean I don't see the good in the event, but I question it and make sure I'm not overreacting to it. I think she's still really scared to connect with me, even though it's been more regular. I still feel rejected a lot, it's almost as if she feels that she's doing something wrong when things get too close to the way they were as far as roles go. For example, I got her and our son ice cream at lunch. She was thrilled (even made herself eat lunch - something she often postpones or neglects - in order to eat the ice cream) and we had a nice lunch together. When I left, I tried to give her a kiss on her cheak, in a friendly greeting way, and she responded by not returning it, by turning her head so I was just kissing the side of her face. I have a lot of thoughts about why she does this, most of which absolve her of the act of rejecting me (I feel rejected, yet I don't necessarily think she's rejecting me). I suppose I should ask her about it, or at the very least tell her that I feel the way I do, but I don't want to pressure her in this area.


Yes. I may not ever know what her choice was based on, but I can know what my choices are based on. I can eliminate my fear from the choice by accepting its presence and therefore recognize its influence when it comes to choice time.

You don't need to change who you are. You only need to give yourself permission to ask questions for clarity.

And if she wishes to be understood (and I firmly believe EVERYONE wants to be understood.) then she needs to find her voice as well. And I believe she will as you ask questions and share yourself w/ her.



Please Muddle, don't judge the "rightness" or "wrongness" of her beliefs. Her beliefs don't effect your choices. Nor do they effect reality. Truth will always be truth even if it goes unseen.



Don't be afraid to speak your truth. What you believe. The facts remain what they are. Conclusions drawn from those facts are not always THE TRUTH.

Agree whenever you can. By simply agreeing w/ her that you don't know her will remove A HUGE boulder between you. She's been pointing to it, saying, "Look at that boulder, it proves you don't love me!" And you've been saying, "There is no boulder!" B/c you didn't agree w/ what the boulder was showing her.

Yes,WW, I don't know you, perhaps I never will, but not knowing you is a gift, not a problem. It's a gift that's new everyday, one that I can love, be puzzled over, Laugh w/, grow w/, wonder w/, dream w/, fight w/,cry w/, share w/....NEW everyday. You're changing everyday. Becoming more interesting and sometimes frustrating every day. Tell me who you are. Share yourself w/ me, Honey. I desire knowing you more than you could possibly know."

In order to move that boulder, you must acknowledge its existance, and then blow that sucker into a million pieces by telling her how much you love her. Passionately love her.


There's judgment in "shoulds", remember?

"I made a bigger deal out of something I didn't WANT to."

It was a big deal to you, b/c you view her disappointments as threatening....b/c you believe if she's dissappointed in you then you are failing to EARN her love.



I KNOW that you BELIEVE she believes you must EARN her love.

But, how can you KNOW this is what she believes? Can you get inside her head?

You're assuming b/c she b!tches at you that she thinks this way. But, does that prove what you think it does?



Why all this distrust in yourself?

What is courtesy and kindness if it isn't love, Muddle?



Over-react to love???

How does one do that?



In her stuff again.



Tell her how you feel. Do it in a "drive by fashion." Share b/c you want to, not b/c you expect anything from her, but do it for yourself. It will help you get clarity taking ownership for your feelings. It's empowering.

Use I statements..."I feel rejected right now b/c you turned your face." And then change the subject..."What's on TV tonight?"OR "Do you need me to pick anything up at the store?"

Drive bys are good.

No pressure in them.



Please don't get into her head, Muddle. Your feelings are yours. State them and then try to find where they come from. (They didn't come from her choice to turn her head.) They came from a belief you have. Look for it.

Her choice to turn her head had nothing to do w/ you. It may have felt that way, but it had to do w/ her stuff. Stuff she'll have to sort through. Not you. You have enough to do, trying to keep yourself aware of your feelings, thoughts, and intentions.

~ Marsh

I know this - I've told her that I think we can change the way we interact without changing who we are. I think she's doing what I am doing to her to some degree (I know, in her stuff again) by trying to disprove my beliefs. Maybe this is purely an issue with my perspective and I'm seeing her expressing her beliefs as an attempt to manipulate me when she's really just trying to gain understanding, maybe not. I think you're right about asking better questions, but I often get reprimanded for asking questions.

This brings me to ask about boundary building. I get a little upset when my W snaps at me, but I often say nothing about it. It's her issue but it impacts my life. I am fairly desensitized to it, but I think it really erodes the respect she has for me that I take it, and it is a pretty clear indicator of the amount of respect she has for me. For example, last night when I got home W told me her stomach wasn't feeling too good. She then said she wasn't feeling good all day. I asked her if it was just her stomach all day or something else. She snapped at me, with a nasty tone, telling me that she was just talking about her stomach, and yes, it was her stomach. In this sort of situation I don't really respond to this and I think I should. I don't want to start an argument with her, and I also am understanding of the fact that she's not feeling well and she often has poor impulse control when she's not feeling her best. But I'm sacrificing respect and dignity by allowing her to treat me this way. Considering the circumstances, what's a good way of addressing this. Be aware also that when I tell her that I will not allow her to treat me this way she responds in kind with "I will not allow you to treat me this way" saying that I'm mistreating her by telling her how to talk to me, and this will likely lead to an argument if I keep trying to explain my standpoint.


I think you're right about this, and I am eager to listen for her voice as well. However, I need to be aware that if I listen too well she won't be motivated to speak loud or clearly.


I agree - and I was stating that I had the urge to do so - I think it's totally natural to want to defend your own beliefs as right - despite knowing I shouldn't and that just because I believe something doesn't make it any more right than a belief someone else holds. I want to remain completely open minded to hear her thoughts and beliefs without judgment. Her choices impact my choices in that if she makes choices that I just can't agree with, the marriage may no longer be an option for me. I can't control the choices she makes, but the choices she makes impacts the choices I am willing to make, so I want to (without wanting to) be able to impact her choices.


Yup, and I look like a lunatic because I don't see the boulder, or I'm in denial that I see the boulder. That's a great way to make a good impression!


This right her is great. It's what I really believe deep down. I have felt this way about the whole situation, that there's a real gift to it, that our relationship has been a real gift to me. I often had the sense that when she comes around she'll see as a gift what she now sees as a problem too. I have been keeping this in because I didn't think she was open to hearing much of anything from me in the past. I still feel this way now, as if I need to hide how I feel because I don't want to come across a certain way, even though I have overcome the depression and trauma of discovery, etc. It's difficult to share when you're habitually trying to mold an impression. This in itself is disrespectful.


I get the feeling that telling her I love her just reminds her that she doesn't love me. When I do tell her, she has told me she loves me, just not the way I want her to, not the way I love her. The way she loves a friend.


This feels like a huge paradox, and it's difficult to move past it. Yes, I'm threatened by her disappointment. If she wasn't disappointed in me (to which a huge component is her expectation) then we wouldn't really be where we are now. Yet I'm working to better meet her needs and not disappoint her again. I think that I may still be blaming myself too much for what's going on and what's happened - I think that she has reason to be disappointed in me. Yet it's this feeling that keeps me in a position where I'm not her equal, all she has to do is give me the slightest hint that she's disappointed in me and I'm in appeasement mode. I need to let go of the belief that her disappointment in me spells the end, regardless of whether I've "proven" that this belief is right. There are facts that support the belief, but it's not functional and it's not true unless I chose to make it so. I don't want to live my life with this being truth.


Because, according to her, she has capacity for different kinds of love, and I'm using the word love differently than she is. This logic is crap though because I also think that she's misidentifying the feelings she has for OM as love, rather than lust or obsession. But perhaps she does love him, perhaps she loves him more deeply than she has ever loved before. She says she does, and who am I to judge her experience? I know it's stage 1 vs. stage 2, but she'd still be settling for something that she chooses (right now) not to allow satisfy her. On the other hand, I see her capacity for love as hers alone, and I think that she's capable of experiencing the passion and the depth of this love with me as well. I see this, she sees it as a product of the OM.


Jump to conclusions. Allow myself to get excited, to think things are better than they are. To be seeing a kind gesture as a sign that we're going to work out.


I'll give this a shot - I think it will help me better understand my emotions in the moment too.

When this happens ask her why she chose to reply to your question in that tone of voice? There's a reason why. She may not know why. She may choose not to tell you why. She may reply to you w/ yet another snarky remark.

She may say something like, "Well, you are so stupid, I JUST told you my stomach hurt...duh?" (Just so you know, I understood your question, and didn't think it was a dumb question.)

Which is actually what you want her to say, so you can help clarify what she just did to the both of you.

You say, "Oh, so b/c you believe my question was stupid, you gave yourself permission to use that disrespectful tone w/ me, is that correct?"

Keep bringing it back to her.

No matter what she says, bring it back to her. B/c it was hers.

Share your feelings about it too. "I feel angry when you use that tone."

If she starts DJing you, then you tell her to stop talking to you like that. If she continues, then you say, I'm leaving the room for x number a minutes b/c you refuse to stop talking to me that way.

Leave and come back and try again.

Repeat.



Here's what's wrong w/ this statement...you can't control her. You can't stop her from saying whatever she likes. But, you do not have to stand there and LISTEN to it. She is still free to run her mouth all she pleases. But, YOU don't have to stay and listen to her.

Boundaries.

You aren't taking a choice away from her, which is what your statement said. That's why she got pi$$ed at you.

But, this entire dynamic between the two of you should be explored w/ your MC. Tell her about these incidents and ask her to help you understand what your WW is trying to comunicate to you when she takes on that kind of tone of voice. You really need a third person to help both of you w/ this.



Would you explain what you mean here? How would listening too well mean she won't be motivated to speak loud or clearly?



You only negotiate and judge ACTIONS... NOT beliefs, feelings, thoughts, or intentions.

Why do you need "to defend your own beliefs as right" Where does this need come from?

Does being 'right' in a situation make you right...your essence? Does being wrong in another situation make you wrong...your essense?



It's not about making a good impression or looking good. It's about living from YOUR code. Is honesty part of your code?

Do you want to live up to your WW's codes, or your own?

Will you choose to act only from your code not based on possible response from your WW?



Thankyou for sharing this w/ me. I want you to know you moved me deeply w/ your honesty and openness.

Share your feelings and thoughts w/ her. Do it b/c you want to. Not b/c you want to come across a certain way, but b/c you want to live from your code to be open.

And you're correct,choosing not to share b/c you're habitually trying to mold an impression is disrespectful. To yourself, Muddle. You betray yourself when you do this.

Share with her, not trying to control her image of you, or her understanding. That's hers...you have your hands full with yours.

Start sharing w/ drive bys. "Honey, when I see you laughing w/ our son, I feel so much love." I'm gonna go take a shower. Or " When I think about the time we did X, it fills me w/ joy."Please pass me the ketchup."



I'm going to quote something LovingAnyway said about this once...

"If you choose to say ILY to hear it...don't say it.

If you desire to express your love by saying rather than acting on it...don't say it.

If you desire to delight in your own choice to love...not from her earning or you giving to get...then SHOUT IT!"



Really? What are they?

Is part of your code making her happy? If it is you will be spinning in frustrated circles forever.

If part of your code is to be respectful, honest, open, considerate, etc...then be those things. But, be those things inside and out, Muddle. To others AND to yourself. Living to please another is NOT respectful or considerate to YOU. Inside and out.



It's not a DJ to understand what an A is. It IS a fantasy. Not reality. She's "in love" w/ the feeling the A gives her.

You are offering her the real deal. The fog from the A is blinding her from this though.

~ Marsh

She usually says something along these lines when I ask her or she volunteers. I usually get defensive about whatever it is she's picking on - whether I act on this feeling or not it colors my responses.


I like this, but I see myself getting into trouble with judging her choices. I want to understand, but I have to fight the drive to use understanding to bring about a solution, which implies a problem. If I see a problem and try and fix it, it's my problem, but this isn't really.


I often take the "ignore it and it will go away" stance. Just let it go and she's over it. But this becomes a pattern. I'm avoiding conflict here in order to feel relief from whatever fear I'm feeling in the moment to the detriment of things down the line.


Yes. I see that too, and I can't believe I wrote it that way because I think I am very careful about not saying that she can't or won't talk to me that way, rather I won't tolerate it. Maybe I am more controlling than I think I am and this slip belies my true thought process.


I agree. I'll bring it up. Going to counseling is so strange when we don't have clear goals to repair the M. It will help us both as individuals, so it's worth exploring.


I had a thought last night, and this is a projected extension of it. I thought about how externally motivated I'm realizing that I am, and I thought about the fact that I have been known to mumble quite a bit. I realized that mumbling is a way of allowing the other person to interpret what I'm saying as they would like to, often, if the person holds me in fairly high regard, crediting me with a better response than I'm actually giving. Sometimes I don't tell someone that an assumption they made about me is not true. I let them define me. If I were more self directed I would be clearer and louder with my speach and I would have a strong sense of what my boundaries are, meaning that I wouldn't allow myself to take credit for things that aren't true (but could be - this is often my out, that I'm capable of what they are assuming). Although there are aspects of this quality that I will always keep as a part of my code. Some people are the glass, I'm the water.

What I'm saying is that if I play too active a role in listening (read, making assumptions and judging - because in order to relate you are ALWAYS judging, assuming the meaning of a word is the same to you both, etc.), I'm guiding her voice. I need to be silent and maybe learn to actively ask questions that will help me understand what she's trying to tell me better.


Ok. But I like to examine my own beliefs, and a part of judging other people's beliefs is exploring them for my own use, because it expands my understanding of the world. I see your point though.


I think this is human nature. I don't think it has to do with being right, rather I think we have a lot invested in our beliefs and if we didn't believe our beliefs were right, everything we did to which that belief was the basis would be sinful. Does that make sense?


Yes, and this is something I have been focusing on now for months. I have seen the need to act because I want to, not because of the response I'm anticipating. It's difficult to stop anticipating. It's difficult not to consider the response.


Thank you for sharing. Looking back at my M, sharing things like this in an honest, open way was so common. I think we had a real, strong, intimate and secure relationship, and to me the betrayal made me question my judgement in sharing this deeply with someone, and worse, it makes me question whether my sharing this part of my core is what actually turned her away from me. That's another of my nasty fears, one that I have shared with her. It's not so much that I want to mold her impression, it's more that I feel I have to hide things in order to not have them be a part of her impression of me. I don't want her to see me upset - I want her to see me getting on with my life, having a great life, being vibrant and happy. I don't want her to see me angry (actually, I don't want to BE angry, and this is something I've overcome), so rather than stuff it, I acknowledge and process it, and then let it go when it's still in the stage of me feeling mad - it never moves on to anger, a mindset, from the emotion. Although, I felt anger coming on a bit last night and this morning. I have had a few drinks each night, and I attribute it to this and being frustrated because I have been feeling closer to my W, yet I expect something more (I know better than to expect it, but I really want it and I have to tell myself no, but I still look for something from her and then feel rejected when she doesn't offer anything). And then I feel like I'm disrespecting myself for looking for anything. I don't want scraps from her, I deserve better.


I need to make sure that I respect my actions in all interactions, but I so often feel like I would sacrifice so much just to be where I want to be in that moment. I would give up my soul to be in her arms. And this almost makes me sick, because it's low, it's desperate. It's not healthy to want to sacrifice myself, she has nothing to give me beyond what I can give myself, it's the desire to share that together that's healty. And this is what I truly want, yet there's something deeper symbolized in this.


I agree with this. I have looked at saying ILY as a gift. I give it and then expect nothing. I don't need to hear anything back. But I think she feels the need to respond to me when I say it, and this is what I'm trying to avoid. I don't want her to remind herself that she can't honestly say it back to me.


She started disrespecting me, and I took it. I accepted her vision of me as someone weak and worthy of abuse. I didn't stand up and destroy this image the way I could have. I respect a lot of what I have done in response to this situation, but there is a lot that I'm not really happy with myself about. Some parts of this are based in who I am, things that I might improve, but can't be rid of. I can't change my personality.


I agree, and let me say now that I think I might be giving an impression that I'm thoroughtly living to please her when I'm really not. I do have the drive to, but I also have spent an enormous amount of time building myself up, doing things just for me, and I think it's been a bit difficult even getting to the point where I can be open and honest about all of my defects. If I were living to please others I wouldn't admit I had problems, I would posturing as this perfect person.


I am, and I'm in a position now where I can be more honest and open with her than ever before. I think I'm a better partner than ever before.

Restating what she just said is not judging. It is clarifying and separating.

Saying, "Oh, so b/c you believe my question was stupid, you gave yourself permission to use that disrespectful tone w/ me, is that correct?" helps your brain to process what's happening. It helps YOU to see this is HER truth, and HER choice. There should be no anger in that question/statement.

And it will also bring her choice back home to HER. In her mind she is only behaving snappy to you b/c of what you did. But, by framing the question/statement like I did, it puts it ALL back on her. She believed your question was stupid, therefore she gave herself permission to be snotty. ALL hers. Whether or not your question was stupid is not even relevant. It's all about her choice. Her actions. Not about you asking a dumb question at all. Do you understand?

Stating what she's done will help you VERY much. You don't need to judge. She has her own set of standards and you have yours. She probably is unaware of what hers are. Part of her code is that she will be polite as long as she feels perfect and no one asks her stupid questions. OK. Good to know. It is entirely possible that when you repeat back what she's just said she's going to think What??? I did what??? And hopefully she'll make an adjustment. If she doesn't, you can still use this technique to help you separate what she's saying from you.




You two can have separate goals. Yours can be to rebuild the marriage. And hers can be whatever.

I know others who have had different goals while going to MC.

Decide what YOUR goals are, and tell the MC and your WW.



Examining your own beliefs is fine.

I understand exactly what you mean by wanting to examine other people's beliefs,(I did it for years) but, it really is still all about judging, comparing, measuring...blah

Crossing over into other people's personal space is icky. (LOL I just can't think of a better word to describe it.)



When we were younger our parents taught us what was right and wrong. But when we grow up, we get to choose our own standards..code to live by. If we choose to be respectful than we'll adopt most of the ten commandments as part of our code. Our choice. It is not respectful to lie about anyone. It is certainly not respectful to kill anyone. ect... It is not respectful to DJ myself or others. It is not respectful to get into someone else's head and judge their codes.

It's not about being right. It's about living by your standards. If we fail to live by our standard then we make amends and correct ourselves.Starting over again w/ a clean slate.



Whenever you are considering her response, you are not being true to yourself...not respecting yourself.



Ouch!

The A was about her. Not you.

Her resentments gave her permission to have the A. Her resentments weren't about you. They were all about her.

She owned each and every one of them. Just as we all own ours.

You are pouring more pain on top of yourself.

God doesn't make any junk. You were wonderfully made. The A was NOT about you.



Love is life.

When you believe your WW's love is slipping away from you it feels as if you will die. That's why you accept things from her you do not want.



You can't change you...your essence, but you CAN wake up parts of yourself that you have suppressed. Parts of yourself that you have rejected and not loved.

~ Marsh

I see your point here and I agree. In fact I have deflected what I don't believe to be mine a lot in the past. She's sensitive to this and tells me that I never take responsibility for things - she's especially annoyed when I tell her that I'm sorry she feels a certain way, she thinks I'm avoiding taking responsibility for making her feel that way. This is particularly difficult when I have been making a very strong effort to act for me, not doing something in order to get a response. She responds to my actions, that have nothing to do with her, with her own feelings. My actions were done for my benefit, and if they resulted in her being disappointed or upset, then I am truly sorry she feels that way, but I'm not sorry for my actions because they helped me accomplish whatever goal they were intended to.

I had the chance to give this another shot last night. When I got home she told me she was feeling bad. I asked her if she was still sick to her stomach. She must have only heard me ask if she was still sick, because she responded by getting nasty again. I asked her why she was speaking to me the way she was. She replied that I had annoyed her because she already answered that question several times. I asked her if this was enough reason for her to use a disrespectful tone with me. She reacted by asking me if I was her father, telling her she was using a disrespectful tone. I told her that I wasn't telling her what to do, I was just trying to understand why exactly she was speaking to me the way she was. She told me that she felt like I should know how she's feeling because she told me (to me, asking how she's feeling is a way of expressing that I care about her) earlier, and she feels like I ask the same question over and over expecting a different answer. She thinks this is crazy. I told her I liken it more to asking about the weather (kindof funny because my good friend and I refer to the marital situation as "the weather"), you ask the same question and expect a different answer because it's a different time or a different day. I think I fumbled a bit on my delivery, but I'm started down the right path here.


I think it does help to state what she's done, because there's a good chance it's miscommunication. I need to understand what she's doing in order to understand whether I'm feeling something appropriate for the situation or if I'm making more out of it than is there, implying a need to look into the causes of my own feelings relative to the situation. I think what I did wrong is to have judged her behavior as disrespectful, rather than to say that I felt disrespected by it. I think that however you slice it it is what it is, and when she's nasty to me, she's nasty, it's not just that I'm feeling that way because of it - other people see it too.


I have told them both that I am looking to learn more about myself and my issues and improve, etc, etc. I have not told either of them that I want to rebuild the marriage, because we're not there. I don't want this to be a battle of wills, with her saying that I'm in denial because I don't accept that she doesn't want this. I accept that right now she doesn't want this, and I accept that I can't work on rebuilding right now, but I can learn from our situation and work towards being in an advantagious position should we reconcile and decide to rebuild. I think it's an honest position, and they both know that I would like to rebuild.


LOL. I need to work more towards this myself. I realize that something my father always told us growing up is that "you'll come across this way" or "people will see you as. . .". I think this impacted my development in that I think too much about how other people will view me because I see myself as existing in other people's space, and responsible for the image of me that lives within them. It's like trying to adapt yourself to compensate for a flaw in a mirror - if the mirror doesn't reflect an accurate picture, trying to change so you get an accurate picture is deforming yourself in order to have the image appear the way you saw yourself originally.


I agree with you about this. I was simply saying that once you have chosen to believe something you defend that belief even to the point of blinding yourself to facts that support alternative beliefs that can not exist side by side with the one you hold.


I know and believe this. I just have a little voice in the back of my head saying things like this every so often. I choose not to listen to it, or even acknowledge it most of the time. It's my issue, not something she has done to me. And it's not about the affair either, that's just a convenient excuse to support its existance.


I have grown so much in this area, and this is one of those things that I am thankful for in the wake up call this provided me with. I have all of a sudden started living my life again. I was doing what I felt I was allowed to do, I was complacent, I felt a lack of options. I was sinking, and just being able to keep my head above water felt like a major accomplishment. I was surviving, but I realized through this experience that I wasn't living. Since then I feel that I have lived every moment of my life. I have much more to show for it. I have much more to give. I am where I want to be because of my choices. I haven't got everything that I want, but I want most of what I have, and I appreciate it.

I'm going to ask you to consider not apologizing to her at all when she's unhappy. As long as you haven't broken your standards why apologize?

Why say, "I'm sorry you feel that way."? Why should you be sorry at all? Not your fault.

Mirror w/ her, but don't apologize.



OK.



Not good. Don't ask her why she did what she did. You already know why she did it. Her code is that if she's not feeling perfect or if someone asks her a stupid/repetative question she can be rude to them. What's to understand?

You are stating what she's just told you, asking if it's true. Like this..."I'm hearing you say that b/c you believe I asked a repetative question, you gave yourself permission to speak to me in that disrespectful tone, is THAT right?"

Do you see the difference?

You're not trying to understand what her intentions were. You are bringing clarity to your mind... to know what is happening. And you are giving your WW what belongs to her. Her choice to use that tone belongs to her. You did not EARN or DESERVE that from her.

Follow it up by saying that you don't want to be talked to like that. Done. finished. If she continues, you tell her you're leaving the room b/c she is still talking to you in that manner.

You have the power...the COMPLETE power not to listen to her talk to you this way past the first time.

Don't talk to me that way.

And then enforce it!




Of course she did. It must have felt that way.

Why did you hit your sister? Why did you lie to me?

As a parent, I try VERY hard to stay away from that "why?" question. What's the point? It's their behavior that sucks. Focus on that. "Don't hit your sister." "We don't lie, we tell the truth."

"Please don't talk to me in that tone of voice."



Boy, did she lead you off the point of the conversation.

It's NOT about your question.

It's about her response to it.

Say, "Don't speak to me in that tone of voice." If she tries to deflect it back to your question, say, "You believe my question was stupid and you then gave yourself permission to speak disrespectfully to me." Put it back to her. Don't discuss what kind of question it was. Keep the focus on her tone of voice.

Tell her you feel angry when she uses that tone.


You judge and negotiate ACTIONS! Yes, JUDGE THEM!! A snotty tone of voice IS disrespectful! You don't want her to talk to you that way. Tell her!

She told you she didn't want you rearranging the house w/o discussing it w/ her first. She has NO problem negotiating YOUR behavior (and she shouldn't) Why do you have a problem doing this w/ her?

When she talks to you w/ a snotty tone, how do you feel? I doubt it's JUST disrespected. I bet you feel ANGER or HURT.

And when she's speaking to you in a nasty way...it doesn't make HER nasty. See, how you jumped over her actions and judged her essence? If you do this to her, you'll do it to yourself. Instead of saying, "I lied." You called yourself "A LIAR." Big DJs.


That little voice is coming from an old belief of yourself. Find it.

~ Marsh

I am sorry to see her unhappy or sick, as I am if anyone else feels this way. I'm expressing how I'm feeling at the moment. I am not responsible for it, yet I am sorry it is the way it is. However, I'm beginning to see that if I consider her negative feelings my problem then I somehow DO feel responsibility for it, and I'm conveying this to her, even if I don't intend to. Or at the very least, keeping this dynamic in play. I'll hold my tongue.


I do.


Yes, I really need to work on this. Most of the time things happen so fast and I'm in reaction mode, I get defensive long after I should have protected my boundaries and then do it poorly, and in the end feel like I should appologize for the way I stood up for myself. I need to stop it at the very point it starts, because once she's past them, I do a poor job of it.


I can see this, but she responds this way whether I ask why or not. It's a tone thing, and since I don't often bring up issues about her actions (I often don't work through the fear of doing it), I think she equates being told how to act with her father. It doesn't change the fact that I need to be treated in a way that's acceptable to me, and if I don't let her know what's acceptable to me, then I will continue to be treated poorly.


And this is the problem with my defensive reactive position. I am responding, or reacting, to whatever she says, so she leads the conversation away from the point. Although I didn't put enough emphasis on her actions, and this might have changed the direction.


Because of my fear of her being disappointed. Ironic, huh? I most likely disappoint her more by not standing up for myself that I do by bringing up issues I have with her behavior. The fact is that she's going to feel that regardless, I might as well do what's best for me - stop sacrificing myself in pursuit of this non-sensible goal.


Yes. I also feel fear. It's confusing, because I do feel quite a bit, and this adds to my inability to do anything, or say anything right (or in my best interests).


You're right, I did this, didn't I? I said she was being nasty, not she was acting nasty. It's frustrating because it's such a common mannerism, but it's important.

Remember the bookcase? Well, last night I ran out to look for one at one of the big box stores. I found one for about $30. It looked nice enough, and there was also a 3 shelf one for less money. I thought the smaller one would be a nice addition to our living room. So I bought them both. When I got home I brought the big one downstairs. WW was surprised that I came home with something. I asked her if she wanted to help me put it together. She told me she wasn't sure where she wanted it. I was under the impression that she wanted it down there, which is why I brought it down. We talked about it and she was convinced she didn't want it down there. We briefly talked about putting it upstairs somewhere, but there wasn't really space for it. I was a bit frustrated because she had been so adamant about getting it - she really wanted it - but she didn't know where she wanted it. I guess I was frustrated with myself for not figuring this out beforehand. Anyway, W was upset with me when I told her that I was going to leave the box down there, in a very out of the way spot, until we settled on a place to put it. I was not going to carry it back upstairs when there was a risk I would have to bring it right back down (because I think downstairs is really the best place for it). So it didn't get assembled, and she didn't want to go upstairs and look for a place for it. I was not going to do this alone.

I went upstairs and assembled the little one. Near the completion of this WW came upstairs and knocked on the door (I had it closed to minimize noise for our sleeping son). When she saw what I was doing she became upset. She explained that she was upset with me that I had done this on my own (the assembly) and she felt that I was going to do what I was going to do regardless of whether she was a part of it. She told me she felt like I was trying to take control. I told her that I was putting it together by myself, but that I wanted to come to agreement over where we would put it an how we would decorate it. She felt that I only said this because she had gotten upset. She thinks it was an attempt to appease her. It wasn't. I told her a bit later that I wanted her input from the beginning, and that had she been angry with me or not, she would have been asked to evaluate my suggestion of where to put it (I had a place in mind when I bought it that I wanted to try out), and I truly wanted her to be a part of deciding how to use it. I guess I assumed that since she didn't want to come upstairs for the other bookcase, she wouldn't want to come up to help assemble this one. I don't think this is a gross lapse in judgment on my part. I feel like she's using it as an excuse to be angry with me (because she has the upper hand when she does this). She told me that she found it hard to believe that I wasn't responding to her anger by including her after the fact. I said goodnight after this and went upstairs to bed.

She accused me of only thinking about myself (when I told her that I wanted to tell her what I was doing, what I was trying to accomplish and what I desire from her) and that this is the problem. Yes, I had an idea for the house, something that will benefit us all, and I wanted to execute it. What's wrong with that? I really don't understand why she got so upset about this. I guess it's because she wanted me to solve what I thought was her problem about the big bookcase and I refused (I tried to collaborate with her on this, but she wasn't helpful), and then I went and took care of my project. I really don't think I did anything wrong, but again I feel like I did because she's pissed at me. Oh, and I screwed up by appologizing for her feelings again <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

What were you supposed to figure out before hand?



She didn't "feel" you were going to do what you were going to regardless of whether she was apart of it.

She "assumed" it.


Nope. Not "feelings" here either. All assumptions.



She got angry b/c she assumed stuff about you. Not b/c she was trying to control you.

Stop letting her have the upper hand when she gets angry.

Get clarity of what is going on.



She's free to believe and ASSUME whatever she likes. But, I would point out to her all the poor mind reading she did, and that her assumptions, about what you were thinking, were what got her angry.... NOT your behavior.

I'd put this all back on her.

You don't need to explain or defend yourself.



She ASSUMED stuff about you.



Did she say this? If she didn't, then you are ASSUMING stuff.

What I heard was she was pi$$ed at you for stuff she ASSUMED you were going to do.

I don't know about you, but when people assume stuff about me, it makes me angry. If you aren't paying attention you'll find yourself on the defensive for stuff another person dreamed up about you.

Stop assumptions dead in their tracks.

Say, "You're assuming stuff about me, and I don't appreciate it."

If she continues to tell you how she finds it hard to believe you weren't thinking this or that...don't deny what she's saying, just keep pointing out that she's assuming stuff again, and you don't appreciate it.

Don't tell her what you were thinking until she stops assuming stuff and you ask her if she'd like to know what you were thinking.

Tell her only after she says she wants to hear it. If she says she finds that hard to believe, then remind her that it's her choice.



You might feel as though you did something wrong, but did you?



At least you caught it.

~ Marsh

It would have avoided this whole scenario if the two of us had talked about where this was to go before I went and bought it. But what's done is done, and the real "problem" is in how we "negotiated" this afterwards.


No, she wasn't getting angry to control me, she was angry because of her assumptions. If I voluntarily give her my personal power I can't say she took it from me (i.e., is controlling me) but I do think that she knows I have this vulnerability and takes advantage of it. Then again, I'm almost playing the victim if I look at it this way, and I think this is one of the reasons I get defensive. I need to allow her to be angry and disappointed without reacting. I need to respond to the situation, not her emotions. But I need to overcome my emotional reaction to her emotions and acknoweldge her emotions for what they are - not for what they mean to me.


I agree with you here, but I feel like I'm venturing into judgment territory here - telling her where her feelings are coming from. This is something I don't want to do. I have told her in the past that I thought she was responsible for a lot of the feelings that she was blaming on me (more specific than this, of course) and you can imagine how well she took that. My putting things back on her creates a great deal of conflict - but if I don't put it back on her, I accept it.


And in doing this, I accept that my behavior is the issue as well.


No, it's my house too and I have a right to do what I want, to a certain extent, without her explicit approval. I will look for her assumptions in the future. I think you have a good point, I just need to figure out how to do it gracefully.

This afternoon another little conflict came up that I started because I didn't like the way she spoke to me:

We were downstairs and I was saying goodbye to go back to work. Our son asked to play a game with me, and I told him I couldn't because I had to go. W told him that she would play it with him if daddy got it down. I asked her where it was. She gave me an attitude telling me that it's in the bookcase with all his stuff. "Have you ever looked in there?" she asked me. I told her "I don't appreciate the way you're speaking to me. It sounds to me like you think my question is stupid, and you gave yourself permission to speak to me in a disrespectful tone. Is this right?" She responded that I was treating her like I was her father and that she didn't appreciate the way I was speaking to her. She said that if I want to get respect I have to give it. And she mocked my saying "you gave yourself permission" saying "who says that?" In the end, I think I got my point across. When she tried to support her statement that I was stupid because I didn't know where to look, I told her that that wasn't the issue, I said the issue was the way she was speaking to me. When pointing blame for her behavior back to the stupidity of my actions didn't work, she then focused on how I was currently mistreating her, therefore proving that I didn't deserve to be treated well because I wasn't treating her this way. I stood my ground and didn't accept blame, but rather maintained that I didn't appreciate the way she spoke to me.

It's still a challenge, but I think I'm getting better. I didn't react to her emotions or my own. I stood my ground and I felt that at the very least I was clear on where my boundary was, and I know she was trying to negotiate it, but I think she recongnized this as well.

She assumed a bunch of things about you. Those were the things she was complaining about. Actions you HADN'T taken....ones she assumed you would.

Refusing to discuss actions you hadn't taken yet or thoughts she ASSUMED you had is perfectly reasonable.



She can believe what ever she likes, That's not what you wish to change. It's her tone of voice that you are interested in ending.



Right here is where you should have enforced your boundary.

You told her not to speak to you disrespectfully, and then she did it AGAIN.

How did you enforce it?

Were you prepared to when you asked her not to speak to you that way?



Good job.

Great awareness!



Well done, Muddle.

I'm glad you didn't try to defend the way you were "mistreating" her.

It wasn't about "winning" the argument, it was about being aware of what is yours and what is hers.

How did it feel?

~ Marsh

Ok, and in this case I told her that I wasn't planning on excluding her from the placement and decoration of the bookcase - even though she didn't believe me. I told her what I intended and wanted from the situation. She had the choice to believe me or not - I was not making it my job to convince her, as I sometimes feel the need to.


I suppose I didn't enforce it. I redirected her to the issue, but I didn't point out the second offense. I need to be more aware of this. Was I prepared? I suppose not, because I wasn't even really aware - I was focusing on making my point. Gotta work on this more.


This is important, isn't it? I guess I never really realized how much of a win/lose competition fighting is between us, because I don't think I looked at it that way.


Actually, I felt a sense of relief. I was comfortable emotionally, I didn't feel like I was being aggressive as I sometimes feel when I've been taking abuse for too long. I was respecting her space (and actually it felt funny when she made the comment about needing to earn her respect by being respectful, because I felt I had been), and I felt that I had every right to be where I was. And I felt dignified. I didn't have any regrets. I know I can get better at this, but I don't have regrets.

Right. You don't negotiate feelings, thoughts, or intentions. What she believes is her business. Her ACTIONS are what is important.

Her assumptions are what you point to as something you don't like.

Assumptions are EVERY bit as disrespectful as a nasty tone of voice. And just like you didn't discuss whether or not your question was stupid, but instead focused on her tone... is the same way you need to handle assumptions.

Don't get dragged into defending or explaining your thoughts or intentions. THEY aren't the issue. The issue were her assumptions.

Stay aware.



Right.

Respect.

Respect her and her personal boundaries and respect you and your personal boundaries.



Right. It didn't FEEL like a fight, b/c it wasn't. You WERE respecting her, and you were respecting YOU!

Respectful inside and out.

Great way to live, Muddle. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

~ Marsh