ML, thanks for dropping in on me.


So much for turning the other cheek. I always felt it was up to my wife to act appropriately, not for me to make her. I can see now that this issue is not so much either or (either I'm not controlling or I'm controlling) but expressive of my own level of self respect. I will not tolerate abuse.


I am. It is difficult to reconcile with my belief system to some degree and as such it's still a somewhat blurry goal. I don't want to put her in her place. I don't want to treat her as subordinate to me. She's not and will never be. I am simply standing up for myself and my dignity.


Are you saying here that she wants me to save her from herself in a somewhat roundabout way? This idea has come up in therapy before, that she blames me for allowing her to be depressed and making decisions that locked her into this prison she feels she's in now. She blames me for the consequences of her choices.


This to me is somewhat against my code - I think. I don't want to force her to be with me if she doesn't want to be. She needs to make the choice to do so herself. I have little to no problem putting pressure on her about ending the affair though.


I have been in plan A for a long time, but I haven't made enough progress in the areas I need to. I have thought about plan b but keep hitting a brick wall regarding finances and custody arrangements.


I am letting her deal with her anger. Today I was a bit surprised because she wasn't hostile to me at all. Last night when she got home she was, but this afternoon we had lunch together and chatted as if nothing had happened. I have a feeling that she is trying not to satisfy me (she thinks I'm trying to get a rise out of her by doing what I did) with the expected reaction. It doesn't matter what her motivation is, we got along and it was a nice experience. I'm not really concerned with how she's going to attack me next, etc., I'm more concerned with keeping my boundaries intact.


I have in fact said something very similar to WW. I told her that I didn't need her in any way and that I would prefer she didn't need me either. I told her I wanted us to choose to love each other and be together.


I hope so, and I think so. I need to be careful not to slip back into trying to appease her though because that would kill this quickly.


Good advice.


Yeah, it's a passionate emotion. I think this might be why she's trying to hide her anger and hate right now. Either that or she's found a way around what I did to get on the internet. She told me she was determined to keep up contact in the house just to spite me.


While she was blocking the door, she started talking about things I do, go out and see my brothers or play in this band, or do things. I told her that she sounded jealous. I told her that I want her to have a rich and full life too, and that if she invested in her real life rather than the fantasy as she's doing she'd have a lot better to show for it. She responded that it's not a fantasy, it's real.


I have really developed my life since the A. This has been where my plan a started. I realized how much I sacrificed for this marriage, and how I would be much happier doing what I wanted AND being married. I realized that I actually had a responsibility to have a life and be fulfilled in what I did because without my own sense of fulfillment and happiness from my life, I had nothing to share with someone. I started focusing on my health, quit smoking, started going to the gym, started riding my mountain bike to work, started painting (oils) again, started playing in a band, going out on weekends to take my son hiking, to museums, etc., etc., etc. I always welcomed my W. She chose not to join me. I did it anyway. I have had a great experience in the past several months because of this. My W thinks that I have been just doing what I feel like, that I'm selfish and irresponsible, that I'm not family centered. I am, but I need to be selfcentered enough to meet my own needs before I'm able to meet those of my family. On the other hand, she doesn't even take care of her most basic needs well. She won't eat because there's nothing in the house that she wants, or she'll put it off until much too late, then she'll have headaches, or she'll feel sick. Then she suffers for the day, and I'm sure that our son doesn't get the best care he could. There's a much lower limit to how much she can give, and she's unlikely to enjoy giving at all. To her this is all sacrifice.


I told her in the past that I would if she got violent with me again, and I still haven't. I need to. I don't want to because I wouldn't like something like that on my record if I were her and she's also threatened in the past that she would make up a story to counter my claim - and who would they be more likely to believe? A man or a woman? I will research filing an incident report without pressing charges. Maybe they won't investigate it (anyone know the likelyhood of this in Westchester NY?).

Thanks for all the advise and support.

Please understand that Plan A was meant to be VERY TEMPORARY. It is just a short phase to demonstrate your best side and show her that you will be WILLING to meet her needs in a future reconcilation. It is not meant to be a self improvement program, but just a short demonstration of your willingness to meet her needs. If you have been in Plan A for 6 months, you are ready for Plan B.



I suspect she blames you for tolerating her abuse and allowing her worst side to run rampant. She wants you to protect yourself so she won't be able to be an abuser anymore.


Applying great pressure and influence is not to FORCE. Often, folks are too "sick" to make that choice by themselves and need help. A wayward certainly falls in this category. They don' t have the good judgement or good sense to make correct choices while in the fog. That is why it is an act of love to apply as much pressure as possible when someone you love is destroying themselves.

MT, I would be taking a hard look at Plan B, if I were you.

Why wouldn't it be part of your code to put pressure on your WW to recommit to the M?

Do you want to be in a M where your WW is NOT committed?




Good.



My hunch is that she found away around what you did.

Try doing something different w/ the computer and watch her reaction.

Have you thought about getting a keylogger?



You might want to invest in a pocket recorder.

The person w/ the marks is the one who would be believed. The fact that the marks were on your back and not your face or chest makes it VERY obvious who was the aggressor.



Look into this Muddle!

You might be very glad to have this on file one day.

~ Marsh

Because I see pressure as coersion. I want her to be here because she wants to be.


Certainly not. I suppose the pressure I can put on her is more about making a decision rather than cake eating.


Maybe. I think it's more likely she's using the phone now. She hadn't reconnected the power cables as of last night. Keylogger wouldn't work because it's a work computer and we can't disable the antivirus software.


True. I will persue this.


Yes, that and I told her last time she got violent with me that the next time I would file a police report. I sent an email out to her parents at that time saying the same.

When you are ready to tell her that living the way you two have been, where she continues to have her A, and refuses to recommit to your M is unacceptable to you, and that you are prepared to move on w/o her, is when she will feel pressure.

If she decides to recommit to you b/c she fears losing you THAT will be b/c she WANTS to.



What are you willing to do about this?

~ Marsh

Good point.


I'm really not sure. I can't cut it off. She has a cell phone that she has a legitimate need for, but she's texting OM with it too. Currently you can't call international without using a calling card, so I there's no way to cut off international calling.

When we were discussing ending the affair, she said that she couldn't just end it. In response to my request that she send a letter informing him that she would not contact him and that he not contact her she had the nerve to say that "it's a relationship, just like ours. Two people. It is a decision we will need to come to together." She had no problem making the unilateral decision to have the affair and destroy our marriage on her own, yet she's got such loyalty to this. It disgusts me.

She is a typical Wayward who feels very entitled.

What is your plan, Muddle?

Your WW is a total cake eater.

How long are you willing to allow her to eat cake?

I realize you have a financial problem, but certainly, talking to a lawyer and maybe a finacial advisor might help you find a workable plan.

It is my belief that if you get your "ducks in a row" and tell her you're ready to move on w/o her that she will probably "wake up". Of course YOU may decide at that point that you don't want to give her another chance.

I'll tell you, Muddle, you deserve to have a better marriage than you do. Your WW is emotionally and physically abusing you. I fear that you have been plan Aing too long and that some of her fog has spread to you.

You're settling for less than you want...alot less, aren't you?

~ Marsh

Not very much longer. I am planning on riding out this latest wave and getting in touch with a lawyer.


I think she will wake up too, but I think I may have spent too long in plan a for the both of us. I know I deserve a better marriage than I have at the moment. At some point soon I need to draw the line and commit myself to that pursuit whether she's with me or not. At the moment I hope she chooses to be with me. I acknowledge the fact that that might change in the future, but right now I am still committed to my marriage and my family despite everything that's going on. Perhaps I have been in this too long, but I don't regret any of it. I have grown so much, and I will not look back on this period in my life with many regrets.

Late last night she let out the anger. She told me I violated her. She said that I wasn't treating her like a partner. That she was a second class citizen in her own home. That she had a right to the internet just as I did. That she had stopped talking to him already (yeah right). That I wanted to control her. That she doesn't want to try and fix things now and it's my fault. That she has NO respect for me anymore because of what I did. That slaves don't love their masters, and that she'll never love me. That she'll do her job and be a servant in the home, but she'll never love me. Yada yada yada.

I simply and calmly restated that the reason I did what I did is because I will no longer allow this in my home. She said that it's her home too and that I can't decide for her what she can and can't do. At one point she jumped up and ran at me, screaming at me to leave her alone. I went upstairs to bed.

I called the NYS domestic violence hotline last night and they were no help. The operator told me to contact the nearest hospital to find out about counseling. She wanted to get rid of me. I felt like I wasn't important because I was male. She didn't take me seriously. I called the police station to find out if I could file a report without pressing charges. I can, so I'll be stopping in later today.

This afternoon I was told that it's over (implying the affair - at first I thought she was talking about us and responded "I know"). She started crying. She said that I am getting what I wanted for a year now. I don't believe her one bit, and I won't until I see a no contact letter and her firm intention to uphold NC. I see no conviction to do this at this time. I only see manipulation to get what she wants back.

She wants the internet back. She told me that she uses it for other things, that it's not fair that she doesn't have it. I told her that I know it's not fair. She does need it for work, and she does use it for recipes and research and emailing her friends too. I told her that I will talk to her later tonight. I want to make clear to her that if she commits to ending the affair (NC letter, transparency, etc) I would be willing to restore the connection. Not sure if this is the best idea, but if she does comply, I don't see how it could go wrong. Any thoughts? I don't really want to use this as an ultimatum to end the affair, but rather I'm taking action to stop it from happening in my home. If I make it an ultimatum (implying that I'll life it if SHE does something) am I undermining myself?

While we talked she asked me if I had cancelled the service. I told her I would talk about it with her later. She started harping on how it was a simple yes or no question. I told her I had answered it, that I would talk to her later. She got angry again. I talked to her briefly about dinner and she said "Whatever YOU decide. You're the boss." She's been taking this position, that nothing she says matters because I'm the boss. I'm the dictator. I told her that it would be that way as long as she made it so - that I was interested in her input and would like to come to consensus - otherwise I wouldn't have asked her. She told me that I'm making it so. I'm controlling her and dictating what she has to do. I told her that I simply was not allowing this affair to continue in my home any longer.

A year? Does she mean she's putting her A on hold for a year instead of ending it?



If she doesn't offer you proof in the form of a NC letter, full access to her phone than I wouldn't believe it either.



Remind her that by eliminating the internet she isn't the only one who suffers, but you do as well.

I would also remind her that you don't think her A is fair to you or your son, but that you and he didn't get a say in that either.

If your WW needs to do research and what not, tell her you'll be happy to go w/ her to the Public library when she wanted to.



I'm not sure it's a good idea either.

How does it make you feel knowing that she hasn't been talking to him via the computer the last couple of days?

I think you might really enjoy the peace of mind not having the internet in your home.




That's why I think you ought to consider keeping it out of your home for several months at least.

She's been using the computer to continue her A for over a year. I think waiting at least a year before agreeing to bring it back wouldn't be a bad idea.



Great reply.

~ Marsh

Sorry, I wasn't clear. She told me that the A was over. She said that this is something I have wanted for a year now. I didn't respond to this at all for a couple of reasons. First of all I don't believe her, I think she's trying to get a reaction out of me. I think she wants me to give her the internet back so she'll say anything, and she knows I have wanted this A to end, so it's the most likely thing to get results. Secondly, I don't want to be overzealous. I'm not out to get her to do something, she doesn't have that kind of power over me. I'm not chomping at the bit.


Yup. I also would like passwords to her email accounts.


Yeah, this is something I wanted to say - it's amazing she would talk about being fair.


I do need the internet to some degree for work. I also would like my son to have it available to him. If she does truly end the affair, and she agrees to all the conditions, perhaps I could restore it with a condition that if there is ANY more contact, then she moves out. I don't think we should all suffer. I'm still not sure here. I don't want to send a message that I'll assert myself and then back right down. Especially if she sees her input as being the reason for my backing down. So then I'm back to your next point:


There are a lot of privledges that come as a result of our marriage and family and she doesn't seem to have any appreciation for them. She believes that she's entitled to it. She's cake eating, and she is taking advantage of me and my son every day. I can't continue to be so clouded by my own desire to work things out that I hand all my power to her - that I sacrifice myself. I need to communicate to her that I'm not willing to sacrifice, that if she isn't willing to be a part of our marriage, that I will not continue it - and all of the privledged associated with it will be gone. We will both lose out, but I will not continue to protect her from the consequences of her choices. I'm not afraid of moving forward with my life - I'm afraid of the impact this all has on my son, but it is likely worse to prolong the current state of the marriage than to resolve it one way or another.

Could you take a major part of the computer w/ you when you leave the house. And bring it back when you got home? That way it could only be used when you are home.



I doubt you will get her to agree to leaving your house if she breaks NC.


I agree.

What is she willing to bring to your M?

What do you need from her in order to continue in this M?

~ Marsh

Smart move!

~ Marsh

There are enough free email services out there that she could easily just open up another account and be back in business. Suggest you require installation of a keylogger to prevent her from doing this.

He said a keylogger wouldn't work because it's a work computer and they can't disable the antivirus software.

~ Marsh

To me it's not so much about policing her, I'm not really interested in doing that - it's more that she would agree in the first place. This would show that she's sincere about ending it, and any evidence that I find would prove/disprove that. I have reason to believe that she wouldn't lie to me - if she agreed to NC for life and ending things she would do so. Unless something got the better of her. Time may tell. Then again, if she's so determined to keep contact up, then what good will any of this do. She can get around anything if she puts her mind to it.

She's not committed to anything regarding the marriage. She's said that she has nothing to give me or it. I want her to choose to be here, to choose to be a part of it, to share, to be equally invested in it and to make something great. Otherwise it's not worth it. What good is it if she's not contributing? I seem to have given her the idea that she's the prize, that she's worth fighting for, and even if she doesn't contribute anything, just her letting me have her would make me happy. I know that she's got withdrawal ahead of her (I think that's somewhat to blame for her anger at my taking away the internet - I think it goes beyond me "violating" her), and I don't really know what to expect. I want to support her and be there for her, but as long as she blames me for her pain, she won't let me. She keeps saying "you want to rebuild our relationship yet you keep hurting me."

I'm not sure how to proceed now. I plan to talk to her directly about whether she has ended things, and what this means to her. As it has for so long, the ball is in her court regarding the affair and our marriage, but at least it's in play now.

That's true.

But boundaries are for YOU, not her.

If you would prefer not to have an internet connection in your home b/c it makes you feel better about your situation than that's a good enough reason not to have it.

If this makes your WW unhappy, then sympathize w/ her about it..."Yeah, it sucks not being hooked up to the internet." And leave it at that.


Reverse babble back to her.

Say, "It's difficult to rebuild a M when there is a third person in it."

~ Marsh

I'm not really sure if this is a boundary. I think it's more about standing up to her and no longer enabling her. It IS controlling behavior - no bones about it. I'm not trying to hide behind any argument that this is a boundary and I'm protecting myself - although there IS merit to this point of view too. I have been in a position where I have handed all of my power over to her with regards to the affair AND the way she has been treating me. I have essentially been coming from the position that she should treat me appropriately because it's the right thing to do. If she doesn't then she's doing wrong, and she should want to do right, so doing wrong and the consequences of knowingly doing wrong are enough. I haven't expressed the feelings that are a result of being mistreated. I haven't made it clear that I do not deserve to be treated this way. I have tolerated it and have allowed her to define me as someone deserving of abuse (yes, she defined me because she acted upon me - if there was no abuse, no mistreatment, than I would not be defined this way). Regardless, I need to respond to this threat. I do not deserve this treatment and I respect myself enough to refuse to be treated this way. I feel that this constant communication in my home defiles it. I feel under attack with it's presence. She refuses to do anything about it when I make it clear how I feel. She refuses to be a partner in our home and negotiate (not that I want to negotiate this AT ALL) and she has unilaterally acted against me and my home and family for a year. I have no problem responding to this with my unilateral decision to remove this threat from my home.

I think there are clearly two motivations here - one is to protect what is mine (the sanctity of my home) and the other is to send a message to my WW that I am not going to just lay here and continue to accept her beatings (figuratively of course). Manipulation, boundary, controlling - call it what you will (I have no doubt she'll pick whatever motivation she thinks paints me in the worst light).

Boundaries are a real issue in my relationship, and I have no doubt that the lack of clarity regarding them has allowed our relationship to break down to such a point where the affair happened. I have not made clear where I wanted the line drawn (because there's no place where it's "supposed" to be that everyone knows about - it IS subjective within reason), and yet I have resented her crossing the line. It's my fault - yet to some degree she did take advantage of my lack of clarity. She walked into my yard, and crapped in it. I didn't respond with any sort of consequence, so she did it again, and again, and again. She marked it as her territory. There was no clear line showing that it was my property, and her stuff was there, so it's hard to believe that it really is mine, even to me sometimes. So through this process of taking back what's mine (a big part of my plan a was rediscovering me apart from the enmeshment) it must have felt to her like I was taking something that belonged to her away.

Those boundaries you keep discussing will either become something she can respect and honor for the sake of your M or it will be something that she will despise, view as controlling and rebel further (if that's possible). In the first case you can start to rebuild a M in the future. In the second case it's simply not allowing yourself to be direspected, treated poorly, dismissed, hurt any longer and any woman or man that would do that to someone that once loved and decided to have a marriage with isn't worthy of being with that person and should be kicked to the curb anyway, IMHO.

And this, to me, is the essence of boundaries:

I define myself by asserting myself when someone's actions begin to define me as other than I define myself.

Asserting myself is not punishing or aggressive behavior. It respects their autonomy because it acknowledges their ability to choose their actions. Their beliefs are not in question, and whether they change their beliefs to accomodate your boundary or not doesn't really matter. Ultimately it is a demonstration of self respect and the confidence to uphold this. Because I define myself as such, this is an important part of who I am - so much so that if you are unable to accomodate my boundary I would have to sacrifice myself in order to continue to relate with you in this capacity. I choose not to sacrifice in my relationships with others. This is a large componant to the buildup of resentment, which poisons and erodes relationships. So therefore, if I have the choice between sacrificing myself and changing or eliminating a relationship, the relationship is what has to go or change unless I recognize honestly that my defining myself with that particular boundary is not accurate, or should be changed for a personal reason.

Now, as to the specifics of my sitch: WW is interpretting my actions as controlling. She's acting as if I am trying to control her whole life, putting on this act about how I'm the final authority and she's not allowed to think anything on her own. I took control of one thing - the internet. She is choosing to define herself as controlled by me in order to manipulate me. I can assume all I want about what her motives are (trying to get me to second guess myself), but the fact is that my actions define me and not her. Her choice to assume a position or play out a role (second class citizen, slave, servant, etc.) is really her choice. So how do I relate to this? Does she genuinely feel this way? Probably. Her feelings are right, based on incorrect assumptions. I want to connect with her, validate her feelings, but I don't agree with the beliefs that have a lot to do with what she's feeling. I can't agree with this, and I also can't judge that unless she asks for my opinion. So basically we are at a standoff because she wants me to change, so she's going to be overtly emotional (is it a means of manipulation? is it entirely honest expression? a mixture of both?), yet she doesn't trust me enough to share with me. She wants revenge, so she constantly withholds her love from me (it's the only thing she feels she has left) in a very obvious way.

She tells me that I need to have everything on my terms. Not just this, but she goes a step further to say that she has to do everything on my terms because this is how I've made it. For example, I told her I want to talk about the internet. I said I would talk about it last night. I got home late and was exhausted. I really wasn't up for a discussion that would no doubt be draining. I told her I was exhausted and asked if she minded if we talked tomorrow (today) because I was tired and I didn't have to work in the evening. She gave me a response something along the lines of "whatever you want, you're the boss." So this afternoon I started to say goodbye after lunch and she brought up our conversation. I told her I couldn't talk now, but later would be able to. She started in about how I put off talking about this until I want to and that she has no choice but to talk about it when I want to. I told her that she could let me know she didn't want to talk about it whenever and I would respect that. She said "what if I wanted to talk about this last night or right now?" I told her that I had to get back to work and couldn't do so now. My choice doesn't take away her choice and it doesn't remove her autonomy. She's acting like my removal of the internet has removed her autonomy. The ironic thing is that this is her choice. And she's choosing to make it about something much larger than the issue at hand.