The reason she didn't believe you about what you said your intentions were was b/c she had ALREADY assumed what you were planning.

I just wanted to point this out to you in case you didn't already see this.

~ Marsh

Yes, I caught that. In fact, I realize that's what I was up against when I talked to her. It's frustrating to be in a position where someone has their mind made up about what you're trying to accomplish (intentions) and you know differently. This came up in numerous discussions between us - the rearranging of the room being one of the more recent. She told me that I was sending her a message, she said I wasn't even aware that I was doing it. How can you argue with this? You can't. She's defining me by assuming things about me and not getting any clarification from me about what I really think, feel or intend. Then she builds off of these assumptions and creates a whole way of viewing me relative to her assumptions rather than to who I really am. I can't spend my time challenging her assumptions and trying to prove her wrong, because this reinforces them. I need to continue focusing on me and becoming better disciplined and skillful at getting closer to being the person I want to be. If she chooses to believe her assumptions, that's her choice, and I will challenge her assumptions when we interact, but I can't get caught up in the way she defines me because it doesn't really have any bearing on who I really am.

Well, you can, but it would be an exercise in frustration.

You can decide not to debate, argue, or discuss anything except actions. Messages that you don't know you're sending don't count.

You will only SHARE feelings, thoughts, and intentions w/ her, not debate them.

~ Marsh

When we had our discussion about the bookcase (the large one that we couldn't come to agreement regarding placement), W said something like "I don't matter" as I was going upstairs. She has periodically said things like this, and it concerns me. I don't often know how to respond, I want to tell her that of course she does, I want to tell her that she's choosing to see things this way, that she does really matter to me. I don't know how to approach this because I don't want to invalidate her feelings, I don't want to blame her for her own feelings and tell her she's wrong for feeling the way she does, but I want to make it clear that she matters to me. I also wonder just how dangerous this thinking might be. I see her using the affair to hurt herself, to keep her in this state by giving herself reason to judge herself. I see her looking for self worth from external sources. I also think she's being manipulative in saying this. I think she's trying to get me to do what she expected or assumed I was going to do (but didn't directly state it). I know I'm getting into her stuff a bit here, but I wonder.

Since I put the little bookcase together and put in where I imagined it, she hasn't given me an opinion on it. I have asked her a couple of times and I haven't gotten a response. She gives me an "it doesn't matter what I think" or something along those lines. Her mother came over for dinner last night and mentioned that she really like our new bookcase. W responded with an "eh" and dropped it. I think a lot of her complaints about our marriage have to do with her lack of ownership of much of it - her choice. I know I can't get her to take ownership of anything, but it's frustrating to be blamed for withholding things from her when it's there for the taking and she doesn't.

Share w/ her that when she says that, your unsure how to respond to it. Tell her you feel frustrated that she believes something about you that isn't true. You're not trying to change her mind, you're just sharing your thoughts and feelings about what she says.



Once was enough.

W/ regards to the larger bookcase...have you thought about returning it?

~ Marsh

Another frustrating talk last night. WW talks about wanting to end things and be friends. I told her that I would be ok with ending things and moving on as friends only under certain conditions. She took this as my attempt to control the situation. She took this as an ultimatum, saying that I was telling her that if she didn't do what I thought was right I was going to punish her by not doing what's right for our son. I told her that I am doing what's right for our son, that her affair - and ending our marriage and destroying the family - was what wasn't right for him. She tried to understand what I see as acceptable grounds for moving on and divorcing as friends. I told her that the affair had to be ended, no contact, and that we had to get to a point where we were making a decision together, as two people in a marriage, not with a third party in the picture. She started telling me that I had no idea whether they were still in contact, and that she wasn't going to tell me whether they were or not. I told her that I wasn't going to be able to move forward in either direction with her if she wouldn't be open and honest with me.

I can't be friends with someone that ends my marriage, damaging my son, because of their fantasy relationship with my family member. This is my truth. She sees this as my attempt to control her. She sees this as my attempt to get things my way, as she sees any attempt at enforcing boundaries. She sees my statement to her that if she should go see my cousin again we will have to find a new place to live as an ultimatum with me punishing her for acting in a way I don't want her to. I see it as my refusal to live with someone that abuses me and disrespects our marriage this way. The punishment factor isn't primary in my perspective, it's not allowing myself to be walked on this way that is. She doesn't want to face the consequences so she sees this as controlling and manipulative. She keeps telling me that I'm all about me. I am not promising to do the right thing unless it's done my way. There's a good bit of hypocrisy here, but still, there's some truth to this, isn't there? But the problem is that I'm a party to this relationship and I should have just as much influence over how things are resolved as she does.

She told me that if she were to stay she would be empty, she won't have anything to give to me. I told her that she would be denying herself all the good of marriage in choosing this. I told her that I wanted to move forward and really determine what we want out of marriage and move forward and make our relationship satisfy those desires, if we can't, then we can't and we can both agree to this and move on. She "knows" that I can't give her what she needs. She's told me that she wants to convince me that we are incompatable people, that things that make our marriage imperfect are parts of our core personality and we can't change this. I listened (in fact in much of this conversation I didn't respond to a lot of what she was talking about because I didn't want to be oppositional) but I believe differently. I have long ago learned not to put any hope into these conversations because I know I can't talk her into recommitting and I can't talk her out of this other thing. But I think this other thing is really the draw that gives her reason to want out. She keeps talking about how it helped open her eyes to how miserable she was in the marriage. Then she said something about how horrible it is to not be allowed to see the man she loves. She told me that at least I could see her, at least we were in the same house, still together. She also told me that she was taking responsibility for my feelings in a way because she was tailoring her actions to get a reaction out of me. Trying to make sure I don't get the wrong idea that things might work out between us, trying to convince me that we don't work.

I guess I'm a bit down because I do keep seeing glimpses of hope, and I know that I'm doing what I'm doing for me, but I keep questioning whether it's futile. I keep questioning whether I'm actually doing harm to the situation, as I know I did in the beginning. We were close friends, she trusted me. Now she doesn't trust me. She doesn't communicate anything intimate with me. I'm tired of feeling the pain of all of this too.

She tells me that I always have to be right. That when we disagree about something, my way is the only way. I asked her for clarification, stating that I don't understand, I don't see why we can't agree to disagree. She wouldn't give any, and cited the conversation we had last night as an example. Basically telling me that I'm holding this over her head in a controlling way. I'm controlling. I don't want to be controlling, but I want to do what I believe is right. I think she's choosing to see it that way because it paints me as undesireable. It contributes to her agenda. I don't know what to do with this. I don't think reacting to every little thing is the way to go, but I do consider her opinion important about this. I guess I think I might get a better idea of what's to come.

I thought about it and asked her. I got a nasty answer "you know we have these books that we need to put away, why would I want to return it?" She still wouldn't agree to find a place for it though.

Currently, she's angry at me. Yesterday W wanted to go buy some shoes for her interview today. We talked about going together in the morning but she ended up going with her mother. As she was leaving she told me she was going to spend money from the joint account. I thought about it for a second and then told her I prefered she didn't (money is tight for the next 2 weeks) and she got annoyed and said she would use her own money. I wasn't really happy about this, but we didn't have a chance to talk about it. She doesn't have a credit card (her choice - she filed bankruptcy before we were married and didn't want the temptation), and I would have put this on credit as a family purchase. She ended up spending some money out of the joint account anyway. She was really angry about me making her ask permission to spend our money. This in combination with the next bit really pissed her off. I got some cash with the award I got from work. I spent almost half of this award on renewing our car insurance. I have been kicking around the idea of buying a bike for myself (a cheap one) so that I have something to show for the award. Otherwise I am sure the money would be spent on bills and eating out, etc. It's sort of an investment for myself. We discussed extra money when we split our finances and determined it would be kept by the person who earned it, so she doesn't really have any claim to it. So she's judging my desire to spend any money on myself telling me my priorities are screwed up and that's another reason why she doesn't want to be married to me. She thinks I should spend my money on my family. So I'm a bit frustrated. She's pissed and I feel the urge to fix it. I talked to her about what she spent on the shoes thinking I would split it with her from my personal money (but she spent household money on it anyway). I guess my bottom line is here that my choices are constantly under scrutiny and I know I have a right to do what I want (in fact under the circumstances I almost feel it's more of an obligation) with my money, but I also want my choices to be respected and I want to be viewed in a positive light. Instead I'm criticized and looked down upon - meanwhile my W has been saving money of her own that she doesn't put toward the family.

Here's what I would do if I were you. (I'm not you.)

I would return the bookshelf and put THAT money back into your joint account.

I would not have asked her if SHE thought you should return it in the first place. I would have just done it. And said when she made up her mind where she wanted it then you'd talk about it again, but for right now it's off the table.

At which points over the weekend did you get angry?

~ Marsh

Ok, I think I see what you're doing here. You're putting the responsibility squarely on her shoulders. I was sort of doing that by leaving the box in "her" space. But I'm not sure what I would accomplish doing this, short of aggrevating her. I guess I didn't motivate her at all, rather I gave her an opportunity to spit on me and see me accept this treatment (a bit exagerated).

I'm not really sure about my anger. I can't say I wasn't angry, in fact I've noticed that I've been more in that mindset of late (having thoughts about hurting OM, etc.) and I'm not liking me this way too much. I guess it's my frustration caused by my expectation somewhere below the surface that my efforts are turning this around. They're not. They're not about her either, they're about me. I guess I got a bit angry that WW is accusing me of being self absorbed and making myself a priority over our son when he's one of the main reasons why I'm still fighting. You know, I never once talked about my feelings in that conversation - I think it was all intellectualized, by both of us. No connection. I lost my focus, partially because I am feeling myself giving up for fear of failing (I will not give up, rather I will go out fighting). The only way I can fail is if I give up. I need to re-focus and give it another go. I guess I just feel bad, I'm exhausted. I need a break. I'm feeling needy. This is exactly the point I need to give more, I guess. Any nurturing I do will do for me as well.

She's responsible for 1/2 of what's going on, but you are responsible for the other half.

I see you taking up HER responsiblities, while neglecting YOURS.



This is NOT an exageration. I believe this IS how you feel.

You bought her something and she has demonstrated that she isn't certain she wants it. Return it. There really isn't anything more that needs to be said about it.

And if she wants to talk about it, tell her you'll only discuss it when she has picked out the exact spot for it and is 100% certain she wants it.

Make this a boundary. No more BC talk or "book pile problem" until she works out her part in it.

If she tries to tell you she thinks you're being "controlling" again, tell her she can think as she likes, but your mind is made up about this.



I have come to LOVE my anger. I always hated it, and tried to supress it or control it... But, now when I feel it, I look at it as a good bit of energy that I need to change things.

The first thing I ask myself is, "Am I letting someone cross one of my boundaries?"

Or, "Do I need to make a boundary here?"

I would guess this is mostly the case w/ you.

I don't see your boundaries... So, your WW has free range in your stuff 24/7.



Why not put a boundary in place here? Why not say to yourself, I will not allow this A to continue in my home, and put an end to her being able to from your home?

It doesn't matter how your WW sees this. What matters here is you're making a choice to respect yourself and your M, by doing what you can not to facilitate her A in your home.

By doing this you are demonstrating respect for yourself, your M, and for your WW.




Is there a boundary that is needed here?

Or do you need to do a better job at separating what she believes from what you believe?



Does it feel safer to intellectualize rather than share feelings?



Yes, indulge in self care for yourself.

~ Marsh

Somewhere in here is the idea that if I take on hers then she owes me one. I don't want to manipulate her, and I certainly don't intend this, but I think the expectation is there on some level in me.


A "but" pops into my mind and that's that I bought it for us, for the family, for the house. I did it because she wanted it, but she will say we "needed" it, and that my position that it was bought for her is manipulation. You're right though, I can't allow her to define the motivation behind my actions. Am I defining her part in it here? She isn't taking any responsibility for any part of it, but can I assign it to her?


I have big problems with boundaries. My W talks often about how my parents didn't have any when they raised us (my brothers and me). They never followed through with threats and they enabled (still do to a certain degree) total irresponsible living. This is not an excuse, because I want strong boundaries in my life regardless where I came from, rather it's an explanation of how difficult it is for me because of my upbringing. I think that because I don't have a strong sense of what is mine I don't feel entitled to be angry, and often feel ashamed of feeling this way. I don't want to act on it. I have been letting myself express anger in ways I never did before. In our conversation on Saturday, I expressed anger at OM and even at WW for the situation. I have mixed feelings about doing this because I was being true to myself, but I did feel that it might be counterproductive in obtaining my goals.


I have been really pondering this recently. It will be spun as controlling. I am thinking of bringing this up in MC tomorrow (we have a session in the am). I'm not sure if this would be the appropriate place to discuss this, but I think that the idea of boundaries should be discussed. My W saw them as a way of getting what one wants, a method of controlling another person. I can't make her believe differently, and it seems that she's doing whatever she can to get me to see myself as controlling, to stop doing what I'm doing regarding building myself up. I don't know what, if anything, this means, but I wonder if it's that she's getting nervous about it. She feels her control slipping away.


How would I establish a boundary here? I tend to evaluate beliefs, and this means that I listen to her conclusions and her supporting arguments, and she was making sense - to a point. I understand where she's coming from, but I don't adopt her beliefs as my own - I haven't agreed with them, just agreed that they make sense. I think I still try to hard to invite my WW into my personal space, and when she tramples on it, I get hurt. She has no business judging what I do with my money - and I made it her business. If it was marital property, if it was from our joint account she would. I am doing what I agreed to. I have to keep my decisions and issues to myself and not bring her into it. I think it was a way of trying to share, but misguided.


Sure. But I think we are both trying to be right to some degree, trying to support our conclusions with good factual evidence. I forgot that I'm not interested in being right. I forgot that I'm not interested in winning an argument. I want to be happy, I want to be married, not right.

That's fine. You bought it for the family. But, now what?

You spent a day shopping for it.

When your WW and you were unable to find one, you continued to look for one, found a good deal, went out and bought it, brought it home and was willing to set it up anywhere she wanted it.

Since she was unwilling to pick a spot or even discuss picking a spot w/ you, what more do you think you ought to do?

What more does she want from you?

How much more are you willing to do?



No, but you can tell her where you aren't willing to go any further.

Say, "I refuse to do XYZ, are you willing to do XYZ?"

If she says no, then return it.

It's all about choice.



I believe part of your problem is your emeshment w/ your WW. You are in her stuff and she is in yours so often that you have lost touch w/ what is really yours. And then you compound the problem by trying to intellectualizing (be right...assign blame) rather than getting the message your feelings are sending you.

Feelings are meant to help you...they are signals to you.

Just like if you put your hand on a hot oven, you'll feel pain...signaling to you that something is wrong...pay attention!

Emotional feelings work the same way. Stop ignoring them. Or telling them there's something wrong w/ them.




How did you express your anger?

Did you say this....

I feel incredible pain, anger and frustration b/c of your continued choice to have this A.

I'm feeling attacked and discarded.



Please explain this.



You can't control what she does. She has choices and you have choices.

You can't stop her from having the A, but you can tell her that by continuing her A, she is attacking you, your marriage and your son.

You can tell her that you will no longer allow her to attack your family...in your home.

You will do what is needed to be done w/ regards to the computer and phone.

Done.



Don't bother trying to change her mind about it.

Just set your boundaries and enforce them.



She might feel this way. It doesn't matter if she does or doesn't. What matters is whether or not you are respecting her, you, and your M.

Her feelings aren't relevent.



Right. And THAT would be a boundary...

You will not discuss these matters w/ her.

Don't invite her into your personal space.

If you find her there, end the conversation.

Make this a boundary for yourself....I will not discuss what SHE thinks my feelings, thoughts, or intentions are anymore.

I will share my thoughts w/ her, but not debate what they are w/ her any longer.



<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

~ Marsh

I am willing to do what I set out to do - be a part of setting it up. Until then it will continue to sit where I left it. I will not extend myself any further - and to me it seems a bit aggressive (maybe appropriately so) to return it. I do need to tell her that I'm doing no more until she does her part though.


I think you're right here, and this is why a lot of the detachment that I've done, and the fact that I've begun to better distinguish mine from hers feels good. Empowering. Intellectualizing is all based on making assumptions and judging what you don't really know based on these assumptions. It can, at time, be relatively accurate, but the problem is that when you do this with someone you're emotionally bonded with, you end up projecting and lose any objectivity you think you might have. Not helpful. I suppose that what once was an acceptable way to fight (I feel bad when you do that) is now somewhat obsolete because it's clear that she doesn't care how I feel. And she thinks the same about me. I guess what this comes down to is that feelings have no power anymore. So we look to something that does. It's all about the power struggle, isn't it?



Ok, I know I did this poorly, but I told her that I thought what they were doing was wrong, in an angry tone. This was in response to her telling me how bad I was because I would not be friends with her if either of us unilaterally ended the relationship. No, I didn't tell her how I feel.


I think repressing or suppressing my feelings, especially anger, isn't healthy for me or our relationship. But I didn't express this very well. It was almost an outburst, but more controlled. Clumsy change, in the right direction.

Our session was interesting. We talked a little bit about the A, as it was part of a conversation we had that my WW wanted to relay to the therapist. I had to state my position for the therapist regarding the conditions I will participate in the termination of the marriage. She understood and asked my WW whether she would be willing to put the A on hold for a period of time in order to sort things out. WW did say she would. WW made a point of saying that this person is 3500 miles away and that this doesn't have the impact a relationship she was having in person would. The therapist told her that as long as her heart and mind was elsewhere, it didn't really matter. It's almost like I'm looking at a door that's cracked open thinking it can be flung wide open. Opportunity. Don't want to screw this up. My feeling is that she should tell OM that she will not contact him, and he should not either, until after a divorce is finalized (IF it is).

WW keeps saying that I seem to think that if the OM is out of the picture she'll want to be with me again. I say nothing of the sort. I'm not even going to argue my point, or split hairs. What I think is that it is more likely she'll make that choice with him out of the picture, but her choices are her own. The environment can impact her choices, but it does not determine the outcome.

We both walked out of the session happy. We weren't at odds, really. We did sort of agree to trying to find a compromise. I felt good that I was understood with a boundary I set for myself: I will be friendly but not friends with WW if the marriage is ended as a result of the A. This is not a punishment, but rather a choice not to associate myself with people who define themselves with choices like this. My cousin made the choice to work towards destroying my marriage and my son's family (and mine) and I will not associate with him. My WW is choosing this path too, but I will give her the benefit of the doubt that she can choose to step off of this path until we've gotten to the point where it is irreversable. At this point, I see her defined by her choice to destroy our family and marriage for a fantasy, and I no longer have any interest in being friends with her. I will be friendly and coparent with her, but we will not be friends.

How is THIS clear?

Did she tell you she doesn't?


Yup, you're both assuming stuff again.


What do you mean?

YOUR feelings are signals to YOU.

HER feelings are signals to HER.

They aren't meant to be used to manipulate each other. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


Whatever for?



What is? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

There's NO struggle in sharing....connecting....loving.



She was verbally abusing you when she told you,"...how bad I was because I would not be friends with her if either of us unilaterally ended the relationship." That is a HUGE DJ!

Why didn't you call her on this?

~ Marsh

Put on hold?

Why not "put an end to it"?



Again, why not "end it"?

This will just give her the opportunity to say, she "tried" to work it out w/ you, when in reality she'll just be biding her time, and will go back to your cousin.

How will she prove that all contact has ended?

Will she write a NC letter?

~ Marsh

It's not, it's a BS, self pitying statement. I could support it, but what good would that do? I have recently seen her respond to my expression of emotions with compation and caring - she does care. But she cares more about feeling good in the moment.


No kidding.


This is a real DJ on my part of how she's looking at things now. It's an attempt to explain why she's intellectualizing things. She has been talking about the power struggle, about how I'm trying to gain control of her and the situation. This to me tells me that she's thinking about things this way. I know feelings aren't a source of power - and I'm not interested in gaining power here. I'm interested in breaking down my defense mechanisms that are destroying my relationship. This would be the main one, letting her come within my boundaries, do something I don't expect or appreciate and then getting in her head and judging, criticizing and condemning her for what I only think exists there. My assumptions, my projections. I'm ultimately the one recieving this treatment - because it's my projection that I'm judging.


I didn't see it that way. I suppose this is part of the problem - I accept her judgement.

This is what the therapist suggested. I would like her to put an end to it but the therapist was talking compromise because we seem to be in such opposing camps.


Yes, this is what I'm concerned about. She also has not said that she wants to work at the marriage. She doesn't think she has anything left to give. She made it pretty clear that she's just interested in satisfying me so that she can get what she wants. She hasn't even agreed to trying - more like getting OM out of the picture so we can break up. Not really what I want, but it seems like a step in the right direction. If she's not in contact with OM and our life is improving, she may recommit. I can't control whether she continues to fantasize about him. She may if she ends it completely. Either way, she hasn't recommitted to me or the marriage. She did, however, tell me and the therapist that she didn't really want our marriage to end because of an affair.


We haven't gotten to this point yet. However, last night she was quite touchy. This might mean something (she sees the relationship coming to an end with OM and blames me for it) or it might mean she's constipated or something. Either way, I wanted to document what happened:

At dinner, WW started to get nasty with me. I asked "please don't speak to me that way." She responded in kind, telling me not to speak to her that way. Then she threw her food back into the serving dish and told me she'd lost her appetite and walked away.

We were getting our son ready for bed - I sent him to pee, and then had him put on his PJs. W came up and told him to get into bed. I told her that he needed to brush his teeth. She asked me in a bit of a nasty tone why he hadn't done it already. "Wasn't he just in the bathroom?" "Why didn't he do it then?" I told her that I didn't have it ready for him then. I was a bit defensive, but also asked her not to speak to me with that tone. While our son was brushing his teeth I thanked WW for putting together a list of groceries and asked her if I could take it with me (I had to go to my second job) or if she would prefer to text me with it later. She responded that I could take it but that she wasn't sure that it was complete and that she knew that if she didn't put down everything she wanted I wouldn't get it because I only get what's on the list. She said this in a tone that I objected to and I mentioned this, but I also acknowledged that I was getting a bit defensive. I told her that I often get things that aren't on the list, to which she responded that I got things that I wanted. The way I see it, she was anxious because of the stress of wanting to get everything on the list that she wanted and didn't feel confident that she had. She then took this stress out on me, and I took it personally (not bad at all though). This seems a pretty basic theme in our relationship. She gets stressed or upset and takes it out on me. I react by taking it personally (often it IS an attack on me - but it's fueled by her issues) and we go back and forth a bit.

I believe she REALLY does feel controlled.

B/c she believes you make her behave the way she does, she feels powerless....or controlled.

Next time at MC, you might want to discuss choices, ownership, limits, perceptions...all of that.



You need to get clarity when you talk w/ her.

When is she sharing something w/ you?

When is she stating an opinion as fact? (DJ)

When is she some place she doesn't belong? (your stuff)

When are you some place you shouldn't be? (her stuff)

Awareness to get clarity.

~ Marsh

Did you say that you wanted her to end the A?



Good to know.

Is she willing to put teeth in that desire? (Is she willing to end the A, not "put it on hold"?)



Did you ask her to clarify what she meant? In what way, were you speaking to her that she found objectionable?



That's fine. She took ownership of her feelings....and walked away. Much better than if she chose to continue to attack you w/ her tone of voice.

What were you prepared to do if she continued speaking to you in a nasty tone?



She was attacking you w/ her tone of voice. Why did you choose to answer her questions?



How did she respond to your request not to speak to you in that tone of voice?



She attacked you again w/ her tone of voice. Why did you choose to respond to what she stated when she used that tone?

How did she respond to you when you AGAIN objected to her tone of voice?



DJ!

She is stating her opinion as fact!

Why didn't you call her on this?



It doesn't matter why she's choosing to attack you, Muddle. Please stop trying to figure out her motive. Her motive is HER business.

Stay focused on her ACTIONS...her choices to DJ you...and attack you.

~ Marsh