No. Actually, I was happy that the topic was brought up and we were talking about it. I also didn't want to push my W, feeling that if I made it known that I wanted it her to end it outright (which I have no doubt she knows) she would respond by getting defensive. I know I should have asked for what I wanted - taken responsibility for my own need.


She said it as if it wasn't within her control to do so. She said it in a way that said I wish it was possible, but it's not, so too bad. The desire is there though, so it's quite possible that she will recognize that SHE wants this and that the only way this would be so is for her to end the affair. I don't really want to beat her over the head, but I need to talk to her about this more.


Yes. She told me that it was my tone. I sounded like I was her father telling her what to do. I was being condescending.


I was prepared to give her a warning that if she continued I would finish my dinner in the bedroom. It really wasn't ideal because I would have punished myself for her actions because I wouldn't have had the pleasure of eating dinner with my family.


Because I have a habit of trying to diffuse her attacks by acting as if they're rational questions. After all, I have the power to percieve things as attacks that aren't, so I give her the benefit of the doubt - which allows her into my space. I feel a bit trapped because I feel that my defensiveness is a problem in both directions. It is bad because when I get defensive I close myself off and prohibit connecting, but I'm not acting on my feelings of defensiveness in an effective way, and this causes me to feel there's reason to be defensive. I get hurt by her because I don't recognize my feelings and act on them appropriately immediately.


She didn't really respond, she reacted and seemed to get more frustrated, but she didn't air it.


Because I just wanted to get going. I wanted to smooth things out and leave them on a nice note. However, I reacted a bit. I got defensive. I took it somewhat personally. Unfortunately, I reacted by walking away. I didn't give warning. I just turned and walked away. I owned that disrespect a moment later, and we discussed things a little more clearly.


I guess I didn't want to argue. I know I get things that aren't on the list, and she does too. I get things specifically for her that aren't on the list. She holds this over my head, even though it's not true. If I were to argue with her everytime she attacked me we'd be in real trouble. Oh wait. . . <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


Ok - her actions. But negotiating is difficult between us. I tend to be diplomatic, she tends to be forceful (to the point of intimidation), or she sacrifices herself and blames me for letting her do so. I have a real problem approaching this without arguing because I have a lot of personal emotions involved.

Ok, this is a DJ.

You didn't want to say what you really wanted b/c you KNEW how she would respond? Is THAT respectful?

And how is stating what you want pushing her?



<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> What does she think is out of her control?


Beat her over the head?



Was this true?

Did you respond to this?



Acting as if they are rational?

How is "acting" being honest? Truthful?

You difuse attacks by being dishonest?

I actually believe they were rational questions, I just don't think she cared what your answers were. I believe her point was to attack you, not understand the situation...otherwise she would not have used a nasty tone to ask them.

You could have said, "If you wish to receive answers to your questions please ask them w/o that nasty tone."



Good.


So when you're pressed for time, you give yourself permission to over look attacks? And behave as though it didn't happen? Is that honest?



You allowed her to cross your boundary, pretended it didn't happen and then w/drew from her. See the steps that led to your choice to w/draw.


Who said anything about arguing? You could have just stated what happened.

"WW, you just stated an opinion as fact."

She might reply that it was a fact and not an opinion, but it doesn't mean you have to argue w/ her about it. You could simply reply, "I hear that you believe your opinion is fact."

Just stating it out loud will help YOU process what is happening. You will not need to defend yourself, once you realize that what she said was her opinion...not fact.

It will further bring what she said back to her. And will let her know you don't accept what she said as Truth.



It's only over your head, if you allow it to be.



It's not about arguing. It's about getting clarity. Distinquishing between what is hers and what is yours. It's about not DJing her and calling her on it when she DJ's you.



Is being diplomatic another way of pretending not to notice when you're being attacked?

Is she being "forceful" b/c you have taught her it's OK w/ you when she does?



You don't have to take the blame for her choices.

You own your choices and she owns hers.



Please explain this. How do your emotions get in the way of stating your thoughts or clarifing hers?

~ Marsh

I know it's DJ. However, I'm rationalizing a decision I made in the moment to sit and say nothing that was probably more driven by emotion than anything else. I am assuming that she'll react a certain way. I'm assuming that she'll respond a certain way. I am actually trying to control her by anticipating her responses and saying what I think will get me into the best position. I really don't like that I do this.

My stating what I want is pressure because she knows what I want and is very resistant to it. So she will push back. She seems to be getting this idea that she HAS to do things a certain way if she is going to get what she wants down the line. I would prefer her to recognize that she wants this and take responsibility for going through the steps to get there. I think this is what I'm trying to avoid: her feeling that she must do something. I think we all respond to NEEDING to do something with resistance.


When she talks about the situation she usually uses terms that take her personal responsibility and choices out of the picture. She talks about the relationship as if it exists on its own, as if it has a life and died on its own. What I was talking about specifically was that she said she didn't want our relationship to end because of an affair, yet she seemed to think it was out of her control to make this happen. There was no conviction in her statement, no sense that she could make it happen.


Yes, talk about it over and over to the point where she resists on principle, because she's annoyed with me. She blames me for her annoyance, and I accept it. I think you've picked up on this a bit. I don't want her to be annoyed at me, so I act in ways I think will avoid this. She doesn't like this either, it annoys her. Furthermore, I'm disrespecting myself in doing so.


I don't think it was true. I think she was reacting to my standing up to her - like she didn't get the one-up she is used to, and when she saw that we were on equal footing tried a different tactic. I didn't really respond to this. What can I say? You're misinterpretting my tone? I stay calm and I try and speak in the same tone I was using before.


I don't honestly know if it's dishonest or not anymore. I think it's more about giving her the benefit of the doubt. Just because I feel attacked doesn't necessarily mean she's attacking me, so I give her a pass on my reaction and take responsibility for it. I continue on to see if it's truly what I originally took it to be. There's this gray area, and I err on the side of taking responsibility for the issue. This leaves her without any - and both parties always have some responsibility in any interaction.


Nope. It's not. I guess I just don't want to deal with them so I ignore them and walk away. But just because she attacks me doesn't mean I have to react - I need to remember that I want to be respectful and honest in these situations too, regardless.


Yes. It all stems from my choice to allow her to cross my boundary. If I hadn't, or I had addressed it then I wouldn't have gotten to the point of withdrawing.


Ok. Again, my processing speed in the moment is not quick enough right now. I don't have the clearest mind under stressful circumstances, and feeling like the entire relationship rests on every interaction or conflict is a lot of stress. I am getting better at this, but a couple of times I pointed out things that seemed a bit flawed. My social skills are no match for hers, so it's an uphill battle. I'm making progress.


Well, she badgers me with stuff like this. I can ask her to stop, but I can't make her. She gives me the whole "I'm only judging from past experience" speach.


I have taught her it's ok to treat me the way she does. I don't think being diplomatic is about pretending. I think it's about being willing to see things from all sides. Not accepting only one perspective, because it's clouded by one's subjective experience and emotions.


There's A (the action) and B (my feelings). Now A happens, but between A and B is my experience. All of my history come into play here. There's a filter that's my own to examine before I can look to what's on the other side. Why am I sensitive to that? So the process of understanding my emotions is deeper, and therefore it's not immediate. Also, I react and the priority becomes controlling my own emotions and thinking becomes secondary. Thirdly, I don't like to look at my negative emotions much, so I'm not very good at identifying them in the moment. This is where sharing would help.

Just wanted to mention one more thing about yesterday. When I got home from work W was making dinner. She apologized for not have dinner ready already and I told her I didn't mind at all, and asked if I could help her out. I did and I thought we had a good time. Then before dinner W jumped up and ran downstairs to put the clothes in the dryer. She explained that she had forgotten to do that earlier and she had washed both sets of PJs for our son. I didn't really say much about this. Anyway, after our discussion about the list, she was upset and told me that I got angry about things - and told me specifically that I had gotten angry at her that dinner wasn't ready and then again that she had forgotten the laundry. I told her I wasn't angry at all about either of those things. I wasn't at all - in fact I enjoyed the fact that she hadn't finished the cooking because we were able to do this together. Seems she's feeling guilty, damning herself for what she didn't do right and then telling me that I'm doing it. She told me that I was, and that I needed to check myself.

Yes, it IS controling.

Where is your payoff?



But, you see Muddle, you are still trying to manipulate her.

Stating that you think the A is an attack on you, your M, and your son IS respectful. Stating that "putting the A on hold" is NOT the same thing as ending it, is STILL respectful.

If she puts pressure on herself b/c of your statements, that HERS. NOT YOURS.



What is your MC doing? Why doesn't she help your WW to understand choices?



As long as you are acting in a way that you hope to manipulate your WW, you will NEVER get what you want, Muddle.

She will not grow as a person if you don't allow her to deal w/ her own stuff.

If you don't want to be open and honest and respectful w/ her then your M will never become what you hope it will.

Plus you will never grow as a person if you aren't willing to share honestly who you are, what you think, want, and feel.



"equal footing"?

Are you looking at this as who is going to "win" the argument?



The benefit of the doubt?

Was she speaking to you in a nasty tone or not? That seems to be pretty clear cut. When you've asked her to stop it, she's never denied using it has she?

You've got to focus on judging actions...you are so focused on trying to figure out what her intentions are, her thoughts, and feelings...that you are loosing sight of her ACTIONS. Actions don't need the benefit of the doubt. They are what they are.

If she tells you something that you may not completely believe, you might choose to give her the benefit of the doubt and believe her. But, a nasty tone is an attack, Muddle. I don't know how you can see it any other way.

It doesn't matter if she's stressed out, or trying to level you down in order to feel better about herself. Her reasons don't matter. But her actions do. She's going to have to work on her stuff in order not to behave the way she does towards you. And you need to respect yourself enough to speak up when she attacks you and your M.



If you need clarity then ask for some.



React? How about respond? If she attacks you, how will ignoring it help your M? How are you showing respect for yourself?

Your WW has NO problem letting you know what SHE doesn't like that YOU do. If you started talking to her in a nasty tone, she'd have something to say about it, wouldn't she?

Your WW attacks you and b/c you pretend not to notice it, she believes it's OK to continue doing it.

Respect and love go hand in hand.

If a woman doesn't respect a man, she won't be able to love him either.


You don't FEEL like the entire relationship rests on every interaction.. You BELIEVE it!

You're back in the belief that love is EARNED, not chosen. Therefore you must behave in a "perfect way" in order to EARN her love. This is why you have the need to be right and win arguments. If you're right, then you feel safe. That somehow she has to love you if you are right.



This shouldn't be a battle. You ask her not to do certain things and if she doesn't stop them, you remove yourself from the situation. Your job isn't to make her realize she's doing something wrong, it's to respect yourself enough not to play a part in her choice to abuse you.



You're right, you can't make her stop. But, you don't have to continue listening to it either. You can say, "Yes, I know this is how you believe, I don't want to hear it again." And if she continues you can leave.

Or you can say, I'm a brand new person today, w/ a clean slate, same as you, judging from past experience is not something I want to do anymore.



Again, if you weren't in her stuff trying to UNDERSTAND why she does what she does, you'd be more focused on what is happening in the PRESENT. HER ACTIONS....



Did you ask her what behavior of yours she thought demonstrated your anger?

Did you ask her why she thought you needed to "check yourself" when she hadn't complained about a specific behavior?

Did you tell her the only time you had gotten angry was when she chose to use that nasty tone of voice w/ you?



In her stuff!

~ Marsh

Marsh,

I wanted to thank you for being here and helping me keep my focus on what I want. It's not been an easy task and I've not been able to do it on my own. I really appreciate that you take the time to help me help myself. I feel like I've gotten a good idea of where I need to change in order to get where I want to go (still not really sure I can do it - but I'm not going to give up), and this is the first time in this crisis that I've really had some concrete goals that I can see leading there. Furthermore, it's been a huge help in my personal perspective on my life outside of my marriage. Thank you for being there.


The answer that comes to mind (and this isn't my idea but me spitting out things I've read) is that the payoff for me is that I get a sense of safety - I'm managing my fears through controlling my environment. I'm not sure that this is what you're getting at, but to me this isn't a payoff at all. It's succumbing to my fear rather than conquering it.


You are right. I did say that I thought the A was an attack on me and our marriage and our son in MC the other day. WW didn't react to this. I don't want to manipulate her, but I want the marriage to work. And if I want something to happen I have to make it happen. I think the manipulation seems to be an effective way of making it happen (it's not), that and it seems to be a shortcut. How she feels isn't my responsibility. I need to stop myself everytime I consider her feelings in my actions because it's an attempt to manipulate her.


I think she's still somewhat in the listening and assessing stages. She has talked to my WW about taking responsibility for what she wants by asking for it a number of times. She has also started talking a bit about choices, but I don't feel we've really gotten deep enough. We're getting there - it's only been about 3 or 4 sessions now.


You're right - I "know" this. But how do I make it happen? How do I stop looking at things this way? And then there's the deepseated fear that I don't have anything worth sharing, that my feelings, wants and thoughts will all be judged worthless. Especially compared to OM's.


I'm looking at this through what I percieve to be her perspective.


You're right. I think a motivation I have in doing this might be to reserve a bit of gray area for myself. I need to pay attention to her actions, and my own.


Well, I meant react as in emotionally react. I want to respond. I guess I selectively avoid conflict. I need to create more balance by continuing to tell her when things she does bother me.


I don't believe it in general, just in the specifics of this situation. I guess what I need to realize is that this IS our relationship - even right now. It's not a break, things will not change considerably if she decides to return. I need to act NOW the way I WANT to act in a successful relationship. It's difficult though to act this way without being able to ask for what I want though.


You're right. She's good at deflecting attention to what I'm doing, and I have a habit of responding to her deflection rather than staying focused on my point.


Good point. I'll try this.


No I didn't. I was pressed for time and had to run, but I'm not sure I would have gotten this clarification otherwise. Maybe I can go back and do so now.

You're welcome, Muddle. It makes me happy to know that anything I've said to you has been helpful.

And thank YOU for choosing to share w/ me. Like I said before, it helps me too.



Boooooooo!

It's only helpful to reach down inside yourself and pull out your own answer.



When you feel fear...trace it...receive the signal it's trying to send you. Tracing it WILL dispel it. Then you won't feel as though you need to control it...or the situation that is inspiring fear in you.



Good for you for stating that the A was an attack!

Did your WW's reaction to your statement surprise you?



Stay present, Muddle. Stay w/ your stuff, being true to your code.

When you try to manipulate her stuff, it will only frustrate you. You DON'T have any power over her stuff, despite your belief that you do.

It's fantasy, to believe you can manipulate her stuff.

Grab reality w/ both hands.



Yes, or her thoughts, reactions, or intentions.

Stick w/ your standards. Judge your actions from them, NOT your WW's inner stuff OR her possible reactions to your choices.



You have conflicting beliefs. On the one hand you recognize what I'm saying is true, but on the other, you STILL believe that you CAN manipulate her...control her, cure her...

Challange THAT belief!!!

Look at the power you REALLY have. Look at how simply changing your perspective can be life altering. Choosing to believe your WW WANTS to connect w/ you is POWERFUL stuff! You're staying w/ the power you actually have. Believing your WW can handle your telling her you don't like some of her behavior is POWERFUL!

Accept your limits (managing her stuff), and by all means embrace your power.



Huge DJ's here, Muddle.

You believe that God made you in His image and made you worthless?

Challange THAT belief!

Huge DJ in comparing yourself to OM.

His A w/ your WW is fantasy. It's not real. He's NOT sharing his true self w/ her. He's covering up his true self, by having the A! He's using the A so that he doesn't have to share his REAL self w/ your WW....and your WW is doing the same w/ him.



And THIS is where you're going wrong!

Quit trying to get her perspective!

You're in her stuff when you do this.



Yes, you need balance in your life.

No more bad guy verses good guy mentality.

Just her stuff and your stuff.

Respecting her and respecting YOURSELF...inside and outside.

Plan A has a carrot and a stick...balance....


I'm going to challange you on this...You don't believe it in a general way? Only in this situation? Really???



Yes, right now...today...your WW is CHOOSING to remain married to you. Today she is choosing to live w/ you, share w/ you, connect w/ you. Same as you are. Tomorrow YOU might choose not to love her, share w/ her, connect w/ her, live w/ her...Or tomorrow SHE might choose not to w/ you. But TODAY you both do....so stay present.

Don't worry about tomorrow.



Yes, Muddle. A new day...a clean slate....even in your M. Quit making choices based upon yesterday's interactions.

Make your choices from your code.

If you want to be loved, then be loving...not in order to get from others what you want, but b/c this is the way to make yourself happy....fill your own love bank....by becoming loving we won't CRAVE being loved by others.

The Golden Rule isn't about getting others to do what YOU want them to, by "doing unto them". It's about meeting our own needs. I fear I'm not doing this awesome concept justice.



Why can't you do both?



Yes, by all means revisit this conversation.

You need to be willing to discuss and focus on BEHAVIOR..ACTIONS....not feelings, thoughts or intentions. Let her know you WANT to know what actions you do that displeases her and you want to tell her what actions she does that displeases you.

If she wants to talk about a "message you sent her w/o being aware of" then redirect her to actions...not messages...unless they were spoken words...in which case clarity may be needed.

Ask her if you two could agree to believe the other person when they share their thoughts and feelings. Tell her you will believe her and would she consider believing you...

Calmly sharing your needs, wants, beliefs, thoughts, and feelings w/ each other...

~ Marsh

Glad to hear this.


I know, and I get frustrated when I realize I've been using other people's concepts and ideas to answer my own questions. I can adopt them as my own, and I often try to, but it doesn't necessarily work as a part of an overall worldview. Then again, what idea is really new? I think the uniquity of the individual is more to do with the uniquity of exposure to ideas that their personal experience allows them. Especially now that there is so much information available. I spent so much time researching affairs and marriage saving almost exclusively from the perspective of "I need to convince my W what she's doing is wrong" - and this eventually turned into me debating whether she actually was, whether all the "propoganda" was there to serve its own end, awfulizing a fact of modern day life rather than speaking the Truth. See how quickly this all becomes such a deeply introspective spiritual question? And to me the spiritual IS a personal experience, one that you can not gain through adopting the ideas of others (to me this is spiritual materialism).


What I told her exactly was that I felt that she was destroying something that was very important to me - my marriage and my child's and my family. She didn't really respond to this, and I was a bit surprised that she didn't try and address this in any way (she usually tries to say that the family won't be destroyed, it will just take on a different form). I was glad to have said this.


The trouble with all this is that I often don't even realize that I am manipulating. I guess I exist outside myself, if you will, and therefore I not only do a poor job of getting what I want from her but I do a poor job of getting what I want from me. I've really moved in - and I think this is what making my room more comfortable for me is about. I need to move in and decorate myself.


Yeah, I do. I hold a belief that I don't want to, and I don't recognize it until I've acted on it. That's what really sucks about this. I'm being someone I don't want to be, and I don't realize it until after I've done what I don't want to. Or maybe I have the situation framed differently afterwards. I don't intellectually believe that I can control or fix her, but deeper down that belief is there and it's the basis of a lot of these nasty habits.


This is a key point that brought me out of my depression many months ago. I truly started to recognize the power I had. Now I'm understanding better how to use it.


I often feel that I don't have anything to show for it. Not that I don't have any intrinsic value, because I truly believe I have as much (or little) as anyone. Same with abilities - I have certain strengths and weaknessess, but they don't determine my intrinsic value.


This is a rough one for me. I don't really, but because of who he is, I have trouble sometimes. He's my cousin, someone I considered a good friend. We had a relationship that spanned 20 years. He and I share a lot of common interests. We are very similar in a lot of ways. My WW initially told me that he reminded her so much of me, and that should make me feel good. Yet there's something in him or about him that is meeting her needs in the moment. I know it's not because he's superior, he's certainly not - despite the fact that I do feel a bit badly about a lot of what I'm realizing about myself and how I interact with my WW. I know he's an object to my W, something to project her ideals onto, a way for her to carry on a narcisistic relationship with herself. I know it's not REAL love - but she loves him, and I have no doubt that she always will. There's a place in her heart that will always hold this relationship in high esteem no matter what happens in the future. With women it's the relationships they treasure forever.


The fact that he's involved with my W speaks volumes about him and his character. The fact that he's family is extremely shameful. He really is sacrificing a lot just to feel good. He's avoiding a lot because of his fear. I have a lot of "DJs" about him based on assumptions I've made, but it doesn't really matter. To me, he doesn't really exist. I have forced myself to stop thinking about him at all, much less talking about him.


Because I've always felt secure in our relationship. So much to the point that when she told me she was having feelings for him I didn't get jealous or nervous, I never felt threatened. I felt she was being intimate with me and I took it as a sign that things were GOOD between us. How friggin naive was I? Overly trusting? Now I feel that I need to get my behavior in line to save the marriage. I didn't before. I was secure. I felt loved even if she was pissed - she would get over it.


I understand this - you're saying that by loving you are loved, not by another person, but because you're exposed to your own love. Do I sorta grasp it here?

Remember this experience the next time you are reluctant to speak up...you expected her to do something different from what she did....she's new everyday. Give her a clean slate.


Stay aware. Before you do anything, check yourself...find what your intentions are.

Are you sharing b/c you want to connect? Or are you doing (or not doing) in hopes of getting (or avoiding) a certain response from her?



LOL

Move in to accept and appreciate yourself.

Decorating = celebrating YOU



You broke your own standards. You didn't become a different man. So, make a correction, make ammends and move on.



Right.

"I believe, help thou my unbelief."

Keep challanging that false belief...and act from your code...eventually you will free yourself from the false belief that you can control another person.



Does this come from your belief that love must be EARNED? That if you haven't achieved enough that makes you unworthy? Not loveable?



Good grief! The waywards can really say some foggy things, can't they? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />



Right.

Stay w/ this.



Do you have a crystal ball? Can you see into the future and KNOW how your WW is going to view OM?

You know how she feels about him TODAY, but tomorrow??? I don't think so.

There are plenty of FWW on this board that will tell you that even though they "loved" their OM at one time, they no longer feel the same way.

Moreover, they view their A as the shameful thing it was. They certainly no longer hold the A in high esteem.



I think this is the healthiest choice you can make.



You didn't draw a boundary around your M. You thought you didn't need to.


You didn't realize how important boundaries were. Lots of people don't.


Were you secure b/c you thought you had already EARNED her love?

Did you assume that by working hard and providing for her and doing other things that you had EARNED her love? Deserved it?

You took her for granted? Didn't realize how important meeting her EN's were. You didn't know what love busters were...DJ's, assumptions, ect...

Meeting ENs is just a way of comunicating your love for another person. It's not about EARNING their love.

Love is a CHOICE. It can't be EARNED.


Yes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

~ Marsh

Yeah - as much as I think I do this, I guess I really don't. Making judgments about what will happen in the future from past experience is just a way of trying to control anxiety. Furthermore, the more negative the prediction, the more likely it is to come about. Self fullfilling prophecy.


I guess I still judge my essence based on my actions. Again, intellectually this concept is bogus to me, but I continue to believe it.


Yeah, but I find it interesting that she wanted me to know that I'm her type - sort of gives me a funny sense of hope. The sense that all I need to do is develop some skills that I don't have and things will fall into place. She'll be attracted to me again.


It would be far easier if I didn't know him. Losing two relationships to this betrayal is not easy. One of them doesn't have a chance of being restored. Here's another thing I struggle with. I initially was open to forgiving him. I didn't want this nonsense to destroy my relationship with him. But I feel that he defined himself with his choice to continue despite the damage it was and is doing. I can't give him a clean slate - and in doing so, I prevent myself from truly having a clean slate too, right?


Yes. Now I realize how critical it is. It's like putting up a fence after the animals have all run away. Maybe I can catch a few and get 'em back in there. Maybe not.


No. I believed in her committment. I believed in her choice to maintain the importance of the marriage within herself. When we talked I felt that we were deeply connected. The combination of our connection and my belief in her committment is why I was secure. She never told me that she was unhappy. She tells me now that I should have recognized it, I should have known. She never told me then. Sure, we had our fights, one time she even mentioned wanting a divorce, but it was in the heat of the moment, we were separated by a thousand miles, she was frustrated and it never came up again. Now I think every problem we have is something that limits our potential, nothing spells a miserable life or future for us. To her ANY problem is almost a cause for celebrating because problems mean we aren't working, and if we aren't working we never will. To her problems mean she can run away - and she has something to run towards that I think is the real motivation here.


I did take her for granted. I treated her the way I wanted to be treated. I treated her as my equal. I didn't admire her the way I should have, the way she deserves. I listened to her, valued her opinion, yet somehow she walks away from this feeling like I look down on her thoughts and opinions. This is another one of those places where I feel that she's projecting. I can't see what it is in me or from me that she uses to give herself permission to blame me for the way she feels. I didn't work to keep her - I was secure in what we had. She never got the ego boost that a man trying to please her gives her. Sure I thought of her when I got groceries and picked up things I knew she liked, but I was bad about getting gifts. I often neglected her here. There was a lot that I was doing wrong or not doing, but there was a lot about our relationship that I thought worked, and I still do.


You're right about this. I was telling her I loved her, but she wasn't hearing it - she needs to be shown.

Ok, last night. I left work early to take WW to her IC. I was about 5 minutes later than I planned, so we were in a bit of a rush. I mentioned to WW that I thought the main highway would be backed up because it was just about rush hour and I thought we should take the backroads. I asked her what she thought. "Whatever" basically saying she was going to be late either way. So I headed off. Well, I made a turn and she responded with "Oh, I wouldn't have gone THIS way" and then told me she thought by "backroads" that I meant route X. I told her I had been thinking route Y, but now that she mentions it, I saw that she was right about a certain part of route X being faster, so I would connect back to X from Y via Z. So we're going along and she starts complaining about how out of the way route Z was. Then she told me that I got scared when she told me she would have gone a different way, and that I second guessed my own plan and tried to appease her because of my fear. I don't really think this is what happened, but I did have fear at the moment I second guessed my initial plan more because I wanted to get her where she needed to go as fast as possible. The thing I don't like is her calling me out on my fear. And this I think is not something I want to fight her on, because it's true in some ways, but I feel like it emasculates me when she says this, or even thinks it. But arguing doesn't do any good, nor does stubbornly sticking to my initial plan. I want to be flexible and weigh all the options and make the best decision with the information available. Sometimes I don't think things out properly, sometimes I make assumptions that traffic will be a certain way and it's way off base. I don't know where to go with this.

OM thought so little of you that he attacked you, your WW, and your son. He can NEVER have a place in your life, Muddle. He burned that bridge when he had an A w/ your WW.

Other's can give him a "clean slate"...your journey in life will never include his again.



She told you how you can win her back.

She sees you as weak. Fearful.

So afraid that you'll lose her that you will back down to aqnything she says.

Do you know what I would have done in that situation?

I'd have turned the car around and gone home.

When she protested and carried on, I'd have said nothing until we got home and then I would have said, "Honey, do you feel my fear now?"

Then I would have changed my clothes and left the house, saying I'd be back later...then I'd go watch a movie.

You need to Plan B your WW, and Plan A your W.

You're not responding in anger...you're responding in love.

Here's something James Dobson wrote...

Only those who have been rejected by a beloved spouse can fully comprehend the tidal wave of pain that crashes into one's life when a relationship ends. Nothing else matters. There are no consoling thoughts. The future is without interest or hope. Emotions swing wildly from despair to acceptance and back again. Nothing in human experience can compare with the agony of knowing that the person to whom you pledged eternal devotion has betrayed your trust and is now involved in sexual intimacies with a "stranger". . . a competitor . . . a more beautiful or handsome playmate. Death itself would be easier to tolerate than being tossed aside like an old shoe.

If one word must be selected to describe the entire experience, it would be something equivalent to panic. Just as a drowning person exhausts himself or herself in a desperate attempt to grasp anything that floats, a rejected partner typically tries to grab and hold the one who is leaving. This panic then leads to appeasement, which destroys what is left of the marriage.

Let's look for a moment at the other half of the relationship—focusing on the individual who wants out of the marriage. What secrets lie deep within the mind of the woman who has an affair with her boss, or the man who chases the office flirt? Surprising to some, the desire for sex is not the primary motivator in such situations. Something much more basic is operating below the surface.

Long before any decision is made to "fool around" or walk out on a partner, a fundamental change has begun to occur in the relationship. Many books on this subject lay the blame on the failure to communicate, but I disagree. The inability to talk to one another is a symptom of a deeper problem, but it is not the cause itself. The critical element is the way a husband or wife begins to devalue the other and their lives together. It is a subtle thing at first, often occurring without either partner being aware of the slippage. But as time passes, one individual begins to feel trapped in a relationship with someone he or she no longer respects.

Now we begin to see why groveling, crying and pleading by a panic-stricken partner tend to drive the claustrophobic partner even farther away. The more he or she struggles to gain a measure of freedom (or even secure a little breathing room), the more desperately the rejected spouse attempts to hang on.

Perhaps it is now apparent where the present line of reasoning is leading us. If there is hope for dying marriages, and I certainly believe there is, then it is likely to be found in the reconstruction of respect between warring husbands and wives. That requires the vulnerable spouse to open the cage door and let the trapped partner out! All the techniques of containment must end immediately, including manipulative grief, anger, guilt and appeasement. Begging, pleading, crying, hand-wringing and playing the role of the doormat are equally destructive. There may be a time and place for strong feelings to be expressed, and there may be an occasion for quiet tolerance. But these responses must not be used as persuasive devices to hold the drifting partner against his or her will.

To the reader who is desperately in need of this advice, please pay close attention at this point: I'm sure you would not have dreamed of using these coercive methods to convince your husband or wife to marry you during your dating days. You had to lure, attract, charm and encourage him or her. This subtle game of courtship had to take place one delicate step at a time. Obviously, it would not have been successful if you had wept violently and hung on the neck of your lover saying, "I think I'll die if you don't marry me! My entire life amounts to nothing without you. Please! Oh, please, don't turn me down," etc.

Coercing and manipulating a potential marriage partner is like high-pressure tactics by a used car salesman. What do you think he would accomplish by telling a potential customer through his tears, "Oh, please, buy this car! I need the money so badly and I've only had two sales so far this week. If you turn me down, I think I'll go straight out and kill myself!"

This is a ridiculous analogy, of course, but there is applicability to it. When one has fallen in love with an eligible partner, he attempts to "sell himself" to the other. But like the salesman, he must not deprive the buyer of free choice in the matter. Instead, he must convince the customer that the purchase is in his own interest. If a person would not buy an automobile to ease the pain of a salesman, how much more unlikely is he to devote his entire being to someone he doesn't love, simply for benevolent reasons? None of us is that unselfish. Ideally, we are permitted by God to select only one person in the course of a lifetime, and few are willing to squander that one shot on someone we merely pity! In fact, it is very difficult to love another person romantically and pity him or her at the same time.

If begging and pleading are ineffective methods of attracting a member of the opposite sex during the dating days, why do victims of bad marriages use the same groveling techniques to hold a drifting spouse? They only increase the depth of disrespect by the one who is escaping. Instead, they should convey their own version of the following message when the time is right: "John [or Diane], I've been through some very tough moments since you decided to leave, as you know. My love for you is so profound that I just couldn't face the possibility of life without you. To a person like me, who expected to marry only once and to remain committed for life, it is a severe shock to see our relationship begin to unravel. Nevertheless, I have done some intense soul-searching, and I now realize that I have been attempting to hold you against your will. That simply can't be done. As I reflect on our courtship and early years together, I'm reminded that you married me of your own free choice. I did not blackmail you or twist your arm or offer you a bribe. It was a decision you made without pressure from me. Now you say you want out of the marriage, and obviously, I have to let you go. I'm aware that I can no more force you to stay today than I could have made you marry me in 1989 [or whenever]. You are free to go. If you never call me again, then I will accept your decision. I admit that this entire experience has been painful, but I'm going to make it. The Lord has been with me thus far and He'll go with me in the future. You and I had some wonderful times together, John. You were my first real love and I'll never forget the memories that we shared. I will pray for you and trust that God will guide you in the years ahead."

Slowly, unbelievably, the trapped spouse witnesses the cage door vibrate just a bit, and then start to rise. He can't believe it. This person to whom he has felt bound hand and foot for years has now set him free! It isn't necessary to fight off her advances—her grasping hands—any more.

"But there must be a catch," he thinks. "It's too good to be true. Talk is cheap. This is just another trick to win me back. In a week or two she'll be crying on the phone again, begging me to come home. She's really weak, you know, and she'll crack under pressure."

It is my strongest recommendation that you, the rejected person, prove your partner wrong in this expectation. Let him marvel at your self-control in coming weeks. Only the passage of time will convince him that you are serious—that he is actually free. He may even test you during this period by expressions of great hostility or insult, or by flirtation with others. But one thing is certain: He will be watching for signs of weakness or strength. The vestiges of respect hang in the balance.

If the more vulnerable spouse passes the initial test and convinces the partner that his freedom is secure, some interesting changes begin to occur in their relationship. Please understand that every situation is unique and I am merely describing typical reactions, but these developments are extremely common in families I have seen. Most of the exceptions represent variations on the same theme. Three distinct consequences can be anticipated when a previously "grabby" lover begins to let go of the cool spouse:

The trapped partner no longer feels it necessary to fight off the other, and their relationship improves. It is not that the love affair is rekindled, necessarily, but the strain between the two partners is often eased.

As the cool spouse begins to feel free again, the question he has been asking himself changes. After wondering for weeks or months, "How can I get out of this mess?" he now asks, "Do I really want to go?" Just knowing that he can have his way often makes him less anxious to achieve it. Sometimes it turns him around 180 degrees and brings him back home!

The third change occurs not in the mind of the cool spouse but in the mind of the vulnerable one. Incredibly, he or she feels better—somehow more in control of the situation. There is no greater agony than journeying through a vale of tears, waiting in vain for the phone to ring or for a miracle to occur. Instead, the person has begun to respect himself or herself and to receive small evidences of respect in return. Even though it is difficult to let go once and for all, there are ample rewards for doing so. One of those advantages involves the feeling that he or she has a plan—a program—a definite course of action to follow. That is infinitely more comfortable than experiencing the utter despair of powerlessness that the victim felt before. And little by little, the healing process begins.

This recommendation is consistent with the Apostle Paul's writings in 1 Corinthians 7:15: "But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances. God has called us to live in peace" (NIV). Paul is not authorizing the rejected spouse to initiate a divorce in these instances. He is, rather, instructing a man or woman to release the marital partner when he or she is determined to depart. The advice I have offered today is an expression of that scripture.

Well, that represents my attempt to summarize a basic theme of Love Must Be Tough, which is 212 pages in length. I hope it will be helpful to those who have been struggling to keep a troubled marriage alive. In a broader sense, the principles I have described are not only relevant to husbands and wives in a time of crisis; they are applicable to healthier marriages, too. Indeed, I wish they could be taught to every engaged or newlywed couple in the morning of their lives together. There would be fewer bitter divorces if young husbands and wives knew how to draw their drifting partners toward them, rather than relentlessly driving them away. Respect, you see, is not only vital to rebuilding broken marriages, but to preserving healthy relationships day by day.

Now isn't that just like an author to promise the moon to his readers? All writers have this tendency to overestimate the significance of their views. Books being published today offer everything from 30 more years of life for men or ageless skin for women. Unfortunately, these authors rarely deliver on their promises; they remind me of "Professor Miraculous" in the Old West who sold his Elixir of Life from the back of his covered wagon and then left town ... fast.

Hoping not to fall into the same "cure-all" trap, let me tell you candidly how I feel about the various concepts described in Love Must Be Tough—only one of which is addressed in this letter. Genuine insights into human behavior are not everyday occurrences—at least not for me. Indeed, if one stumbles onto two or three fundamental principles in the course of a lifetime, he or she has done well. The concepts I expressed in this book focus on one of my allotted few. Do they always preserve dysfunctional marriages? Of course not. No one can make that promise. But even in cases where the spark of love has died, the principle of self-respect in the face of rejection holds true. The alternative is usually despair.

~ Marsh

My journey in life will certainly never include interacting with him in any meaningful way.


Yeah, this is the key - I just need to learn the steps I need to take that lie just beyond my fears. I can get through them, I just need to focus on what I need to do.


Nothing attractive about this, is there?


And here I am thinking that I'm being considerate.


Wow. Sometimes I have felt like stopping the car and telling her to walk home. Never done anything like this though. That would send a clear message, wouldn't it?


In other words I need to recognize that she's got two different drives. She wants to tear me down and disrespect me, but she also wants to connect, to share and to love. I need to respond differently to them. My attempt to connect and love my WW is going to be sacrifice on my part, my dignity and self respect, and this will further the destruction of any respect she has for me. I think I get this, I just need to act on it consistantly.

Oh, and by the way, last night while WW was in therapy I ran out and bought a dustbuster for her (something that she's been wanting for a long time). She was excited to get it and even joked a bit about whether I was trying to tell her something. The thing that got me though is that she told me I should have waited a few weeks to get it because our anniversary is coming up (end of Feb.). I was almost shocked by her mentioning this because I expect her not to want to even acknowledge it, much less see it as reason to buy gifts. I hinted that I'll get something else for that occassion (actually was thinking about taking her to a show - but again, I'm unsure how much weight to put on the day). Last year I went all out to make it a really special day - flowers, dinner, hotel room in an old mansion - I had bought her new clothes that I had packed up so she wouldn't find her clothes missing and I could really surprise her. I ended up eating dinner with a friend and then staying in the hotel room by myself. I celebrated the day - I wasn't going to let her determine whether I would or not. She screamed and yelled at me, and I was sad that we couldn't spend it together. She ended up eating McDonalds. And she was remorseful afterwards. But I don't really want to waste money this year.

NC means NC....and it's for life. You need to show WW how it's done.


That's what I would have done, not necessarily what YOU should have done.

Here's a really fantastic post by Bob Pure where he speaks about loving detachment and his dignity...

I was working out a situation with a friend the other day and it occurred to me FINALLY how to describe "loving detachment" in a practically applicable way.
In my own affair-battle, and in plan A , loving detachment was without doubt the technique that helped the most to get through the very bad times. It allowed me breathing space to be rational when faced with irrationality.

I have advised for panicking folks in the heat of this fight to "detach" but I always struggled to INSTRUCT them how to do it.

Well, a day late and a dollar short, but here goes - in case it helps anyone:

However vicious or entitled a persons actions may be towards us, and however dark a situation may appear, it is a stark realisation that it is OURSELVES who render events with the power to frighten or hurt outselves.

Some folks who tried to adopt loving detachment tried to IGNORE evil purpetrated in their lives and respond with a false rictus smile to the person who is hurting them. That is not what loving detachment is for me and I chide myself for not being able to explain sooner.

Loving detachment was a way I found to strip away the scariness I attributed to events and look only at the core elements of these events.

I'll start with a non infidelity example :

A banana skin skids to a halt at your feet, when you are rushing and feeling low, and you barely miss slipping on it. Things you might think while in an emotional state:

"I could have slipped on that ! GOD I might have broken my neck ! I Bet my spouse threw that there to kill me for my insurance ? What if there are more banana skins ? OH NO, I have to LIVE in a workd of banana skins for ever boo hoo hoo !"

What loving detachment thinks :
"A banana skin. I need to step around that so I don't slip. Stay vigilant in case of further banana skins as I can only control my OWN placement of banana skins, not other people's."

See ?

It doesn't matter if a person tried to sabotage you with that banana skin,OR if it was dropped accidentally by a passing flying monkey, the core challenge, and correct response is identical once you strip away all the layers of portent you ascribe to an event.

When Squid would attend karate competitions that I suspcted OM may be at, against my direct request a wellsping of panic and fear surged within me. " She'll be kissing him ! Maybe they're not even at a karate event! Perhaps they've left to elope !"

Then I shouted "Stop! Detch! " to myself.

Facts :

1. Squid went to referee a weekend competition against my request less than a month after d-day. The only thing I know for sure is she won't be home over Saturday night.
2. Even if she *IS* PA'ing with OM, it does not change our situation.I Expect her to be wayward at this time. I am not "more cuckolded" by this ,if so.
3. I know there IS a competition at the time / place she says and that she is sharing a room with a trustworthy mutual friend.
4. How can I affect this in future ? Well, exposing to OM GF may apply a compulsion to OM not to attend these events. I should expose.
5. The weekend without soaking up Squids poison gives me a respite ! I will take the kids to a childrens' farm !


Loving detachment is DELIBERATELY stripping away portent from events and facts to allow calm rationalisation as to whether you can affect a situation positively or not.

It is not ignoring, it is not soaking up, it is not tolerating. It is revealing and dealing with the FACTS as practially as possible.

Another real example :

Event : Squid is highly entitled and is bullying me in her affair pomp, in the second whole week after NC established. She is making no effort to be transparent nor to work on our marriage. Highly dismissive, vituperative. I am terrified, the kids are being hurt. [b]I was working out a situation with a friend the other day and it occurred to me FINALLY how to describe "loving detachment" in a practically applicable way. I was working out a situation with a friend the other day and it occurred to me FINALLY how to describe "loving detachment" in a practically applicable way.

What would I do if I were not afraid ?
- I'd tell Squid that I would rather live without her than WITH her this mean and disrespectful
What am I afraid of ?
- That this is the best Squid can ever give me and that she would leave if I enforced a boundary requiring more
SO this is a dignity issue. Best case is that I get my baby AND my dignity. Whats the best compromise ?
- That I keep my dignity and lose my baby.

So, loving detachment, what are the FACTS to consider ?

1. She could leave ANY time she wanted with or without my protecting my dignity
2. If she left as a result of having to respect minimum boundaries, I am only worse off if I value that toxic corruption of a marriage more than my own dignity.
3. If she leaves I will be healthy,have the support of my employer and my kids and we will be fine, after a time of sadness. It is highly unlikely that we will be broken by this.
4. If she stays and respects my boundaries we may all just "win the lottery" !.

Decision - restate my boundary to Squid.

Lovng Detachment released me from the chains of fear. That night I asked Squid my famous question :" baby WHY are you here ? You said you would stay and work on our marriage - and I am struggling to see anything I would call "marriagebuilding" from you right now. I want you , very much, but I do not need you. Do not stay only because you think I will fall apart if you leave. I will not.
The door on this marriage is open - you can leave any time, as can I. Just know that I will not tolerate perceived disrespect for long before I protect myself from it."

Squid flipped a switch that night like so many WS do.

Even when I make a bad decision using the facts loving detachment presented me, I could simply apply LD to the NEW situation and make a new decision in light of my experience.[/b]

See how assumptions we make can be waaaay off?

Did you tell her you were surprised?



Why not ask her?



That sounds very nice. My wedding anniversary is in Feb. too. (Valentines Day)

Your WW was having an A, last year, correct?

Did she tell you she didn't want to go w/ you?

~ Marsh

Last night I turned a corner, not the way I wanted to, but it's done.

We were having a conversation about ending the affair vs. putting it on hold. WW kept telling me that she was trying to compromise for my sake, because she didn't want to end the affair, she is convinced that she doesn't want to be married to me because of me, not because of the A. I told her that she said herself that she didn't want to end the marriage because of the affair, so to eliminate this possibility I believed the only solution was to end the affair. Putting it on hold kept it in play and ensured that it was still a factor in her decision. She asked me if I would be satisfied if we were to work through our issues. I told her that I wanted to work through our issues and build a great marriage, but if we work through our issues without any third party involved and come to the conclusion together that we can't get what we want then I am ok with going our separate ways. She didn't feel she got a straight answer from me, and I was nervous and fearful in the conversation so my words didn't quite come out right and even my tone was something that WW objected to. I explained that I was experiencing fear at the moment and that I was unable to control the way my voice came out - I clarified that it wasn't anger.

Eventually W started to get upset. She seemed to be trying to get me to believe that our problems were the reason she didn't want to be married to me and it didn't have anything to do with the affair. She started asking me what I saw in her. She told me that she thought that even when she wanted to be married to me she wasn't happy. I told her that I thought that was a great awareness to have. This means that we can do better - she can find a way to be happy, unlike in the past. She asked me why I thought she would want to try and work things out. I couldn't really answer this, and I told her that I would only be able to answer for myself. I told her that I thought there was plenty of reason to. The tension rose, and I started to feel that I was being judged severely (only realizing this now) - and I have a feeling she did too. We have such conflicting points of view.

Then she told me that the reason she doesn't want to be with me is because I'm weak. I don't stand up to her. She can't be with someone that can't stand up to her.

I am a bit ashamed at this next part. I reacted and called her a nasty ******. I said that she needs to put people down just to make herself feel better about herself. I recomposed myself after saying this. She responded that what I had said was something someone would say to someone they love. What she said was enough confirmation of what I have been struggling with here. My anger in the moment fueled my determination to do something about this. I needed to respond, even though I had reacted inappropriately, to show that I am not weak, that I will not be treated the way I have been. Maybe it's too little too late, but I told her that I will no longer tolerate the internet communications. I went to the computer to change the password and she grabbed away the mouse and keyboard (cordless). So I started disconnecting wires from the computers. She started getting violent, punched me in the back of my head, scratched my neck (nasty, visible scratch) and my arm, etc.

She was really upset and tried to tell me I had no right to do what I was doing. I told her that I did, and that this was what was happening. She then started asking about working. I told her we would figure that out when the time came, that I might get the IT person at work to disable internet access while allowing network connections so she could work. She sat in front of the closed door and wouldn't let me leave. She started talking about how I'm trying to be the big man, trying to control everything, etc. Eventually she picked up the phone and called her mother. She started talking to her mother about how I'm crazy, told her that I took the computer apart, and how she has a right to it and I have no right to tell her she can use it or not. I eventually grabbed the phone and told her mother that WW wasn't telling her the whole story, that she had become violent. WW shouted that she hadn't. Blatently lying. I have pictures of the scratch on my neck. MIL put her husband on the phone and I had a quick chat with him, told him that WW couldn't fight her battles for herself, that everything was fine and goodbye. MIL eventually called back and was talking with WW about how I was just trying to get a reaction from her, etc, judging me and my motivations. Took her side totally.

So now I need to uphold this boundary. No internet contact in my home. It's done - I would have prefered to do this in a more loving and calm way rather than have it turn into this dramatic event, but the anger I felt helped me get through the conflict that I have been avoiding. I hope I haven't ruined my chances here.

This morning WW had the door locked downstairs. She wrote a note to our son telling him to knock loud and say something to let her know it's him and she'll open the door. She didn't want to talk to me at all. She refused the muffin I brought her. She came upstairs and threw the flowers out that I had bought her a couple weeks ago (they still looked great). I suppose she's going to be angry for some time now. But I'm not going to back down to her now. I don't know how I can nurture her or meet her needs while she's like this, refusing or throwing out what I give her or do for her (actually, I noticed this morning that she was wearing the really nice, soft socks I got her not too long ago). I'm a bit unsure of how I feel about all of this. I need to be strong, dignified, but I am not sure that I conveyed that. I don't really think that I appeared crazy, but that's what she made me out to be.

No. I didn't know what to think, I guess I was looking for an angle rather than interacting. Bad habits.


Considering the recent change in events, I don't think I would get a good answer.


Interesting. Ours is the 24th. She was involved in the A last year and I had just exposed on Valentines day to my Aunt and Uncle and OM's girlfriend at the time and my ILs. I surprised her with the evening, so she didn't have time to tell me whether she wanted to go or not. She was very ambivalant when I did spring it on her. She was angry too.

MT, I dont' know alot about your situation, but I do see that your wife has no respect for you because you have not stood up for yourself in the past. She has been rewarded for cruel behavior, and women don't respect that. Losing respect will make a woman fall out love as fast as verbal abuse. It is DISGUSTING. It is REVOLTING. Women do not love men they don't respect.

I hope and pray that you listen to what she told you and TAKE HEED.

When you asserted yourself, for a change, last night, she rebelled because she doesn't believe it. BUT...I guarantee you, SHE RESPECTED IT! She is testing you. She still believes she can run you down AND YOU WON'T STOP HER. SHE HATES YOU FOR NOT STOPPING HER! The more bad behavior you tolerate, the more she HATES you for being her victim. Looking at you makes her cringe in guilt because you refuse to defend yourself. Your very presence is a lovebuster because it is an REMINDER and a standing INDICTMENT of her crime. She needs to see some consistancy here to believe it.

I think you are on track, though, if you heed her advice and start CONSISTENTLY standing up to her and protecting your boundaries. It is your job to PRESSURE and INFLUENCE HER into ending her affair and recommitting to your marriage. It is too bad that you have to be ANGRY to stand up like a man. Now, if you could behave this way when you are not angry.

How long have you been in Plan A? Because it sure sounds to me like you are ripe for Plan B. Any thoughts on Plan B?

Muddle,

Please go easy on yourself. Don't beat yourself up b/c you did not have perfect control of yourself. No one behaves perfectly all the time.

I am VERY pleased that you took a stand against her adultery and for your M.

Very Pleased.

I know how difficult that was for you.

Please don't go out of your way for her right now.

She's no doubt hoping to punish you for having stood up to her.

I agree w/ everything Mel said in her post. She doesn't believe you mean this. She doesn't believe you won't back down to her pouting.

Let her deal w/ her anger.

Please, don't give her anything....let everything sink in.

You ARE doing the right thing!

The brave thing.

You are showing her you do CARE enough about your M and yourself by standing by your principles!

She is SHAKEN her up!

She doesn't know what to do to get you to stop it. So she is trying what has always worked before w/ you...w/drawal and anger.

She may try more drastic measures to get you to back down.

Please read Bob Pure's post again...I just want to quote a little bit from it...



In the face of more threats (or actions) from your WW remember the conversation Bob had w/ his WW. You might want to have a similar talk w/ your WW.

Here's a little bit more from Bob....







You GAVE her what she WANTED and NEEDED from you.

You did.

Now, I see REAL hope for your M, Muddle.

Let things cool down.

Do the things you always do (except accepting attacks from your WW.)

Ignore most of what she says to you, unless she is speaking to you in a calm voice.


Bravo!!!



You'll have a chance to say this to her when things are calm again.


Nope. You JUST increased your chances, Muddle!



It's ok if she stays angry for a while. Your job is not to let her anger get to you.

Let her deal w/ her own emotions.

It's a FAR better thing that she is ANGRY at you than that she is disqusted by your lack of standing up to her!

FAR BETTER!

Remember that.

Every time you see her anger, thank God that she feels THAT rather than disqust.



You'll have opportunities to meet her needs again.

Just wait a bit.

Calling her a name doesn't justify HER actions.

Pull back from her some until things calm down.

Let her see that you are going on w/ life even though she's angry.



You did fine.

And you will get a chance to demonstrate more of your strength and dignity in the up coming days and weeks as you continue to reach past your fears and enforce healthy boundaries.

((((Muddle))))

~ Marsh

I just wanted to comment on a couple other points...


Of course she doesn't want to take the blame for your M failing. Of course she doesn't want her A to be the cause of this mess.

But, it IS.

And when you stood firm on this, she lashed out at you in order that the focus might shift from her choice not JUST to have the A, but to CONTINUE to have the A. to you.

She was feeling the weight of her choices b/c you were giving her her choices and their consequences back to her...which was why she turned the focus back on you...



She shifted the focus onto you.



Ignore this.

She'll cut it out when she sees it's not bothering you.

In fact, I suggest going out to catch a movie in the evening....(if you are able to)... I hope you'll want to reward yourself for doing what you did.

You need to start doing stuff that will make YOU feel better.



I'm glad you took pictures, but why didn't you call the police?


~ Marsh

It is not too late to file an incident report with the police. You do not have to file charges - but, where I live, you can file a report and have it go uninvestigated. It establishes a record in the event you need it in the future.

I had to do that once.