Sounds as if you have most of this in persepective.

God bless,

Yes, it really does.

Muddle, you did great stating what your boundaries where in regards to when you'd be willing to discuss it and you did great enforcing them when she tried to cross them.

Remember that her feelings and thoughts about your boundaries are HERS to deal w/.

That means when she tries to GIVE them to you...your job is to give them back.

They are not yours.

Stay aware when you talk to her about this later tonight.

Tell her you hear her frustration, pain...whatever. Repeat back to her what she says, but stay firm on your position.

You might want to tell her you want to be first priority in your relationship with her.

Until she is willing to commit to that, there will be no internet. You need to protect YOUR feelings right now and not worry about HERS.

~ Marsh

PS: Also, Muddle if she starts yelling, Djing you, you end the conversation. You need to let her know that if she wants to speak w/ you, she needs to do so respectfully or not at all.

Just in case you didn't know, THAT comment was disrespectful. If she says anything like it when you two are talking, you end the conversation right then. Point out that that comment was disrespectful and you will not continue the conversation at this time.

Tell her you'll be willing to try again in (30 mins or so).

In thirty mins come back and try again, if she says something else disrespectful. End the conversation and suggest trying again in (an hour or two).

Try again, if she is disrespectful again end the conversation for the night, and suggest you try it again tomorrow.

Respect yourself.

Show her how you want to be treated.

~ Marsh

This is where I am right now. I need to get better at this. Like love, respect is an action. I can hold in the highest esteem a person and STILL disrespect them. Same goes for myself. I need to demonstrate this.

I'm glad you pointed out that what she said is disrespectful because I felt it was, but I still don't even understand why. The statement defines me, I guess. She took a belief she holds about my actions and expressed it as fact. Is expressing her belief disrespectful? No. Is expressing it as truth disrespectful? I'm not even sure this is - I think she believes something strongly because she thinks it's true. What do you think makes it disrespectful?

Yes! You need to show in actions/behavior that you respect yourself enough to say, "Stop! Don't do that to me!"

You're getting it. I think the biggest challange you have is getting clarity on what is disrespectful and what is not.



"whatever you want, you're the boss."

It is DRIPPING w/ sarcasm!

Sarcasm is an attack.

It can NEVER be respectfully used.

~ Marsh

Duh.

Thanks for helping me see the obvious. If it was a snake it'd have bitten me.

Also Muddle, I suggest that when she tries to give you her feelings, you say to her, "I need to protect MY feelings right now, which is why I've canceled the internet services, you will have to be responsible for your own feelings."

~ Marsh

You KNEW it was disrespectful.

Trust yourself.

It's tough to get clarity when you're feeling serveral emotions at once.

And it is OK to take a break in the middle of one of these talks to get clarity of your emotions and the situation. Just tell her, you need a break for a few mins and will be back to try again.

If you can't get clarity after a few mins, then suggest you pick up the conversation the next day.

~ Marsh

MT,

I have been reading along on this thread but you have been getting such great advice from MM and others that I really had nothing to add. However, several times you have made comments about NOT wantint to control your W. MM and others have responded by talking about YOUR boundaries. That seems to be a concept you understand. But, there is another concept that you don't seem to understand at all. Actually, it is a mix of concepts. The mix is "leadership", "personal power", and "influence."

In any marriage each partner has the ability and responsibility to exercise these traits. The goal of using such traits is to achieve a better marriage, a loving marriage and a win-win marriage. I truely think you are confused about these concepts based on some of the things you have said.

You said you did not want to "force" your W to remain in the marriage. First, you need to realize you cannot "force" her to remain. Second, you need to realize that it is your responsibility to lead, conjole, and show her that the marriage can be better.

Secondly, you said "No, it is not controlling behavior as she can legally go out and subscribe to an online service via cell phone company. You have no control over that and thus her access to the internet. You do have a say in what YOU will pay for and what you want in your home. That is NOT controlling, that is in fact a boundary.

ON a side note, please don't obtain an internet connection for your son. They are infinite time sinks and he can assess what he needs for school via you internet connection when it is required. Trust me kids can get sucked up into email, IM'ing, and surfing the net to the point that school and social interactions are lost.


Nope! In my opinion you did not hand over any power. Whatever power you had you still have. You have just refused to use it in some misguided thought that you should NOT have to influence her to get her to be a good W. Yet, you no doubt took her out on dates, bought her flowers, and did many things for her to do what?? Influence her and her thinking about you. That is called romancing a woman. You are supposed to use your power in a marriage. You are supposed to give input and negotiate solutions that are win-win for you and your W, not to mention your marriage. You are supposed to have boundaries especially with respect to the most deadly of Love Busters, the disrespectful judgement. People often think that the DJ hurts only the person being judged. Clearly you can see that is wrong. It hurts the person doing the judging because they then act on incorrect information. You did your W no favors by not addressing the DJ's and not using your power in this relationship.


No you allowed her to make DJ's and then use incorrect information to guide her life and choices. You allowed this because you don't understand power and leadership. A good leader even in the military rarely has to issue orders to individuals. Good leaders make sure everyone is on the same page, knows the order of battle and the battle plan, and then allows them to execute it. You LEAD people, you manage paperclips. You are sort of confusing leading and managing is my take.


What do you want her to do? Read your mind? If you don't like the treatment first mention that you don't and then tell her how you want to be treated, explicitly. If you want her to do something different then you have to lead her to doing that by telling her what she needs to do.

Do you know Dr. Phil's statement, "you teach people how to treat you." Well, in the parlance of power and leadership you guide them with a plan, with action items, with your reasoning of why you want something a certain way. This is NOT controling, because she can leave any time. She can get internect access any time. She can decide to act like a loving W any time. Those are her calls. Your power is in the fact that as much as she has disrespected and lied to you, there is something in the marriage that keeps her there. In that resides your power. Find it use it, and then lead her. It will be her job to decide if she will follow your lead.

Does this make sense to you?? Go gets some books on leadership and pay special attention to the art of leading. You will see that in many ways there is a strong overlap between what good leadership is and what is preached on this site. It is one of the reasons I found this site so interesting many years ago. It dovetailed with my training in leadership and my experiences (good and bad) with leadership.

I hope something I have said will help.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

Thanks for your input. It certainly helps me explore areas I haven't yet.


How do I do this when she's doing the opposite - trying to show me how miserable she is because of the marriage? Sabotaging our interactions just to prove this point?


Ok, point taken - but I still see a lot of vagueness in this that allows it to be labeled as many things.


I don't mean that I lost it, rather I used my power for her benefit ignoring my own best interest.


I see your point here. If I communicate what I want directly (what being a good wife means to me) then she has the choice to do so or not. My misguided belief is that she should be who she is and I shouldn't ask her to be anything but. She's always going to be who she is.


Although I can't romance her when she's got a fantasy man doing the same and she's demonizing the marriage in order to halo the fantasy R. I suppose I've lost whatever power I had here to this.


I can see this, to some extent, but I still don't understand it entirely. Also, why is this the "most deadly" of LBs?


You're right about my confusion here. So you're saying that she made choices based on her judgements of me that she might not have made if I had clarified that these judgments were unfounded? I think your point about the plan being integral to leadership is important. That's a componant that has been missing in our marriage. I think a good plan and a good understanding of it would help us see where we both fit into it. I think this is your point about not needing to give orders.


Good points here. I do need to be very clear in how I want to be treated - and this is part of developing boundaries for me. I can't go about it in a reactive way saying that you've crossed a boundary just because I feel hurt, I need to do this proactively.

So the "what is it that's keeping her in the marriage" point that you make here is difficult for me to figure out. She's here because she feels trapped, she feels that there's nowhere for her to go. That she'll lose her son. She doesn't want to be divorced. She wants to have a family - to replace hers that was destroyed by divorce. I always let her be who she was. I was considerate and caring.

She thinks I'm way too passive, that I'll accept anything.

My boundary development needs to address this, because she's right. I need to address this for myself, define myself and my life rather than settle. I need a plan - something with several levels of detail. I won't accept treatment that makes me out to be less than I am. But I also won't settle for a life that's less than what I deserve either.


Actually, I'm in the process of applying for an MS in Organizational Leadership, so this is really appropriate that you bring this up. Do you have any suggestions?


You did. I appreciate you taking the time to share you perspective.

MT,

I am going to reply to a few of your comments, but have limited time right now. One thing you should really really take away from this site is the concept of a "giver and a taker". We all have both sides and in a good relationship there is a balance between the giver and the taker parts of us. When there is an imbalance, there is big trouble. In the case of your marriage you W's taker has been in control, but it is not working for her and she could not figure out why. On your side, your giver has been in control and if the truth be known you probably have not been as happy as you could have been in this marriage. Here is the very counter intuitive part about this stuff.

You becoming more of a taker will actually help your W. She will feel needed, just as you feel needed. More importantly her becoming a bit more of a giver, will satisfy the need to be needed. Does this make sense to you? Very counter intuitive.

In a way this is very much in line with good leadership. Many people think that when someone reaches the top, they are accountable to no one or simply themselves. That is not true. A good leader, a good CEO is accountable to the people that work for him/her. Just as the CEO expects/demands/requests that the people that report to him/her perform their jobs with skill and effort. Responsibility works up and down the chain of command. It is the concept of the "giver and taker" in a slightly different context.

You asked
Ah! So now leader you have a disgruntled employee what are you going to do? Let them quit or are you going to show them the error of their thinking? How do you do that, not by educating them, but by SHOWING them. You make sure that she knows that you know she is sabotaging things. If she denies it, just smile and say Oh I think so. If she is onery she will try to prove you wrong. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> How can she do that? By stopping the sabotage right. MT, this stuff is like learning martial arts. You use the other persons energy and force to direct them where you want them. She frowns, you smile. She says the world is green, you agree that from her point of view it might be, but wouldn't it be nice if it was blue. Agree and redirect, agree and redirect. Or in a different parlance validate and then offer valid options. You can do this.

Perhaps you think this, but I guess I would disagree. You did not use your power. Your power should have enabled your taker, it should have been used to make her happy. Is she happy now? Was she ever happy with you? What was missing? My guess is that YOU were really missing because you feared letting your taker loose.


Exactly!! But, interestingly given that her giver was retired and not used, she was NOT really ALL SHE COULD BE EITHER. Part of her was and is missing yet. Hence her sense of loss and confusion.

Did you realize that many affairs begin not because other person, OP, does something for the WS, but because that WS (your spouse for example) does something for the other person. It is the giving that often engenders feelings of love, not the taking. I cannot tell you how many people have come here and said, "the affair started because I started listening to this person with a lot of trouble in their marriage, and offering advice, and trying to help them, and the next thing I know I have these strong feelings for this person and the affair began."

MT, love is a verb and it engenders feelings of love because we DO SOMETHING for someone. Another counter intuitive but try fact. Now do you see why Harley has been successful when so many others fail. He sees/saw this and so do his children who are the main counselors you get when you call MB.

Yup! you have got it. Now do you understand the power of plan A to if not end the A plant seeds for the future? Plan A is about addressing those DJ's by showing that they were wrong.



I could not agree more. That is another strong point of the Harley approach, recovery, rebuilding, and a successful marriage is something you and your spouse PLAN and then execute. It is not a mistake, it is not just luck. You define what a good marriage is, then you make a plan that gets you both to this goal of a good marriage. It does not just happen.

I must go after this. You said
You were too passive, but not in the way you think. You did not PLAN with her for a good marriage. You let her run it without taking into the equation the fact that YOU exist. Little wonder the marriage seemed empty to her. Look at why she is staying according to you. Your plan is right there.

You need to sit down with her acknowledge her points, IF indeed these are the reasons she remains and then discuss how SHE and YOU are going to change so that HER goals are met. Further, you will insist that YOUR goals are met as well, and are factored into this plan. She needs a way back, and she needs to understand what you need and how you want those needs met.

Do you see how you need to LEAD this discussion? First you acknowledge or discuss together why she is still in the marriage. Then you decide what you both would really like the marriage to be. Then you figure out action items for you both to accomplish to get there. NOTE the comments I made before. She will begin to love you WHEN she start doing things for you even if she initially doesn't feel like it. And her actions coupled with your acknowledgement that she is doing well, will feedback to her a sense of accomplishment. MT This stuff is very nonlinear.

{quote]My boundary development needs to address this, because she's right. I need to address this for myself, define myself and my life rather than settle. I need a plan - something with several levels of detail. I won't accept treatment that makes me out to be less than I am. But I also won't settle for a life that's less than what I deserve either. [/quote]

Your boundaries and HER boundaries are part of the goals of this marriage and they are part of the plan to make this marriage something you both enjoy. Here is where the POJA and the concept of radical honesty really come into play. And YES please read Harley's four rules for a good marriage, as they will guide you in your planning with your W.

I really must go now. I hope you are getting an idea why I say this is about leadership and why DJ's are so fatal to marriages. Couple these ideas with the concept of the giver/taker parts of each of us, and I think you can see the cause and effect aspects of this stuff.

Hope this helps.

God Bless,

JL

This is a concept that I learned right in the start of this sitch. The person who gives the least, feels the least love. My thinking has always been "if only she would give a little more, she would feel differently about the relationship." I never thought about how I could better influence that. Are you saying that because the relationship is balanced in this state that if I were to nurture my taker, she would necessarily have to adapt because of the nature of this dynamic? How do I go about doing this? We had a good talk last night and she mentioned (not the first time I've heard this) that she felt that I never cared about her needs, that they were the lowest priority in the family. I had several problems hearing this, but didn't invalidate her, because it's how she feels, so she said that she could see why I would think otherwise because I always went out and got her dinner, etc. It's very clear to me that it was because she didn't take responsibility for what she wanted or needed - she didn't ask for it - and then she blamed me for not giving her what I should have know to give her. Anyway, my point was that she felt I always took care of my own needs and left her without her needs met. So, she thinks that I have been a taker (even though it's me taking from life, not from the relationship) and she's been sitting there waiting to be given what she thought she should have gotten.

She did acknowledge that she was looking for the relationship to give her something, to do something for her, rather than to give to it. She said that she stopped giving long ago - that what she had to give is used up and gone. I don't think this is something that can be used up - it can be restored. I think she's sort of referring to the love bank concept. She's also concerned that all the attraction is gone and thinks that once it's gone, it can't be restored either.


Yeah, I see your point. Remain confident. Don't be defensive. Offer hope.

She feels like I always offer a counter argument when she talks about all this. I do my best to validate and avoid getting into an "I'm right, you're wrong" debate, but my sharing of my beliefs is still not as tactful as it could be, I guess. I really wanted to argue with her about her belief that once it's gone it's gone. I did offer some counters to it, and then she started getting upset that I always have to be right. I told her that I don't have any claim to the truth, I'm just sharing what I believe. I told her that I would rather believe what I do and try and make a great marriage while we still have so much of our life together intact and come to find out I was wrong and that we did our best, couldn't make it work and tore things down than destroy everything, including the emotional well being of our son, and live with the constant nagging regret or doubt that we did the right thing. If you're wrong about never being able to restore feelings (and there are plenty of people who have done it) then you destroyed so much for what? Pride? To be right about this belief? Or to move on to realizing this amazing A R?


I like this. I am happy to be married to my wife, but I can't say I was happily married. Things were not balanced. How do I let my taker loose? I tend to think I'm pretty balanced in general, that I always asked for what I wanted from her. I didn't have my own life though, and this is where I really see myself being deficient. I know we both need to be fulfilled in our life as a whole, meeting our own goals and having our own aspirations. These don't have to conflict, but before the A I always felt that I couldn't do anything because I was needed, I wanted to be there, yet we didn't do much. I sacrificed myself for her sake, and in doing so I didn't satisfy her, I made things worse. She said last night that she felt she sacrificed herself (mostly in the context of becoming a mother), and she felt that I was unwilling to do so. I can't say I did so in the same way that she did, but I believe I did too. No more sacrifice.


Yes. I know that in the affair she was the pursuer. She had to be active. I think this was in reaction to my constant availability. What can I do to spark her interest? How can I change so that she puts in the effort and hence feels fulfilled and satisfied?


Now, this is difficult for me to see changing in my WW. I don't see being able to dispute what I don't know is happening. I think she needs to understand just how much this poisons a relationship, but I can't tell her because then I just blaming her for all the problems again. Any suggestions?


This is something I touched on with her last night too. Planning, acting and feelings following these choices. She doesn't believe feelings can be restored.


Yes. This is exactly right. I put all the responsibility on her to run the marriage. I need to take responsibility now. We can both have input on the planning. I'm not going to try to please her by giving it all to her her way, but rather we will share our desires and find a compromise.


She's not staying. She wants out and she thinks that putting the A on hold is the only way out. She doesn't want to work. This is out of her mouth. But she's here. She's still here - her actions say something different. She's still sharing. She says that she's trying to have a relationship with me because of our son. But I believe there's more to it than that. I need to give her the way back - no, not back, but forward, to something that we haven't yet had. To true marital happiness, not just status quo boredom and misery.


But this takes a committment to work on things, doesn't it? She's not there now. I'm not sure if she will be.


Yes - even last night we discussed how both of us weren't clear on our boundaries. She isn't and I wasn't.


Again, thanks for your time, attention and insight.

MT,

I am short on time today. My basic thought is you need to buy Surviving an Affair and His Needs Her Needs by Harley. Her questions of you are answered in there. IN fact your situation seems to me to be exactly why Harley has become so successful with his approach.

He recognized that often well meaning people want to fill the other persons needs but miss the mark because they don't know the needs nor do they know how the person wants them met. Hence a lot of good, honest, earnest effort of the part of the partners is wasted and does NOT add to the satisfaction and happiness of the couple.

It seems to me she does NOT know your needs. You don't know her needs, and really neither of you really know your own needs. I know this is a bit general because you have been here awhile and you no doubt have been thinking about your needs a good bit.

The point is I think the concept of misplaced needs is one she needs to hear.

When I read this latest post, I see a woman that tried (in her mind) to meet your needs, but missed the mark. I see a man that tried to meet her needs but missed the mark. I also see a woman that loved you and a man that loved her.

If you could suggest that she read these books so that she would KNOW where you are getting your guidance from perhaps it would make it easier for you two to talk.

She is staying for your child. That is good. Now the obvious question is "Wouldn't it be nice to enjoy staying?" "Wouldn't be nice if we both fell in love again?" We can try and we don't have to guess at a path. Here are some books that really discuss this. Oh! while I haven't read it I hear "Fall in Love Stay in Love" by Harley is good as well. Perhaps a trip to Barnes and Noble is order for a quick perusal over a cup of coffee.

MT, while you cannot educate her:'you always think you are right.' You can offer her information for her to consider.

Must go.

God Bless,

JL

I have always hesitated to show my W articles and stuff because she takes this stance that I'm trying to tell her that she's wrong. I don't know how I could ask her to evaluate this information without her seeing that as the goal. I suppose I'll try. We have HNHN, and I have asked her to read it in the past. She refused. She claims that "there are plenty of books out there to support what you want to believe and I'm sure I could find plenty to support mine." Then she mocks me for believing what I read in books.

I'm afraid that if I try and get her to read things that support my position it will backfire and she'll rebel, no matter how I present it to her.

I do agree that neither of us seem to have a great deal of clarity on what our needs are. Personally, I think mine are SF, conversation, affection, honesty, admiration - not just the main ones. I guess I need to spend a bit more time with this. To me, conversation, honesty, affection and sometimes admiration are all a part of intimacy - which in my typical male brain leads to sf. I hardly ever get the admiration I crave - rather I get criticized all the time. Conversation is more common, but I respond to her judgmental statements by withdrawing at times, so there's work to be done here. I don't often get physical affection from her - we used to kiss goodbye and hello all the time, but I wanted to touch a lot more than she did. So I didn't get me need met there either. However, I acknowledge that I am asking too much regarding this need because my W is somewhat standoffish. Honesty is a given - but I make the distinction between honesty and truthfulness. You can be honest while you lie as long as you accurately convey what you're feeling at the time.

Last night the way we started our good talk was WW basically telling me that I'm controlling her. That my actions to disconnect the computer made me a controlling person and she was my servant. She had to do everything I wanted her to. I responded that this was not true and she said "THAT'S HOW I FEEL." I told her that I would be much more able to relate to that if she expressed it that way from the beginning. She didn't tell me she felt like she was being controlled, she told me that I was controlling her and how. To me this isn't exactly honest. Her finally saying this to me and me hearing it for what it was started a good conversation. We connected and communicated.

She told me that she had already made the decision to stop talking to my cousin. She had already come to the decision with him and she had had trouble letting go. But they had ended things. She didn't want to tell me because she had told me that it was none of my business in the past. She said she was doing it for me because she saw it as the only way out - because she wanted to be friends with me for the sake of our son. I asked a bit later what the circumstances were around it, and would she be willing to write a NC letter. She told me that they were not going to talk for as long as she needed. That she wouldn't write a letter committing to NC for life because after our M is over she will talk to him again. In my mind, it's still ongoing. But the fact that contact has ended is progress and is better than it going steady.

She has been very depressed the past couple of days. I recognized that this must have been really difficult for her to have me take away the internet while she was already grieving the way she was. She told me that she refused to cry on my shoulder about this. I told her that I am there for her should she want to share her feelings. I empathized with her. She did seem to break down a bit, but told me that she doesn't trust me.

She thinks I blame her for all our problems. I told her that I know I have contributed to our problems, and I'm doing my best to resolve them. We talked about a couple of specifics, and she told me that I should resolve my issues on my own, after we're apart, so that I can have a good relationship in the future. She thought my issue about boundaries wouldn't be an issue if I were to meet someone that didn't have the desire to beat up on me. I told her that this was an issue that could be solved, and I would benefit from doing so now, so I am. She can too and I hope she does.

She said a couple of times that she didn't realize who she was committing to before it was too late. She doesn't think she'll get married in the future. The one thing she thought she had in this relationship she didn't - freedom. She said that she felt like she could go anywhere she wanted in the relationship (there were no fences up, so she could walk all over) but when she walked beyond what I was comfortable with - when I got hurt - I would respond by taking away her freedom and hurting her (she felt like she walked into a glass wall - she could see through it and thought she could go beyond, but when she got there she was shocked to find that she could go any further). I explained that I thought this was because we didn't clearly define our boundaries. If we do this we can decide what's comfortable going forward and not have this issue in the future. She was really hurt by exposure, and she doesn't think that this is the way someone who loves another person should treat them. Then again the internet connection - she was really hurt by this. She says she doesn't think she could ever be with someone that's capable of hurting her this way. I told her that I thought that if we established healthy boundaries for our relationship we wouldn't experience this again.

I told her that I want her to be free - and by that I mean that I want her to be empowered and fulfilled in her own life. I want her to feel that she's entitled to our life together, that she can direct it too. That we can negotiate as equals for what we want or see fit. She constantly talks about how she feels that she's not my equal because I have so many double standards regarding my treatment of her.

Well, even at lunch today, I asked for her hand and she held mine - she didn't just tolerate me holding her limp hand, but she held my hand. I see a lot of hope in this, even though she is resentful of having to end the A (or rather put it on hold) for my sake, and she thinks I have expectations that we can work things out and live happily ever after. She keeps asking what I want from her, and how I'm going to judge whether she's giving her all. She wants to know what she needs to do in order to get this over with and be done. I told her that I'm not the judge of this, that she is. I can't tell if she's done her best - only she can. I'm a bit afraid that she wants to just go through the motions, but I also know that this spells even more opportunity. It's frustrating.

It was a half decent weekend, I guess. I ended up doing a lot alone with my son. W wanted to stay home. I'm somewhat suspicious about whether contact is ongoing. I am pretty sure the IM communication has stopped, that and email, maybe. I'm not so sure about the phone, and WW is not interested in being transparent. As I said before, she doesn't want to write a NC letter. So now she's pining away for a fantasy, something that she's not even actively engaged in. It's surreal. Although, she appeared to be REALLY depressed last week - which is strange to me. If she had plans to reunite then what's to be depressed about? There's no finality to it, the promise to still be there when she's through this process must be there. Is there some uncertainty? I have asked her about it, but she's very tightlipped. She didn't want to tell me that they stopped communicating at all, but she did.

We had a quick conversation about taxes (she's got a job that she's starting next week and is filling out her W-4). She was not sure about whether she should fill it out as married filing jointly, or what. She said "I know you don't want me to think this way, but if we do split up before next year, how are we going to deal with the filing and refund if I am set up this way?" To me this is a clear indication that while she's thinking about leaving, she has no plan, she has no time limit in mind, and she's not even sure she can. She did talk about how she thought that it would be good for her to be on her own, having to be responsible for taking care of herself completely though. It's amazing how she can be so optimistic for life alone and pessimistic about our future together.

I've felt like she was warming up to me a bit only to later feel like she's cold and hostile. I recognize that I've been a bit frustrated internally about the whole thing because I still have expectations (something my W has made allusions to when she ended contact - "what do you expect now? You must expect something because you've been trying to get me to end things for a year now. You think that I'm just going to fall in love with you again once he's out of the picture. Well I'm not. Once it's gone, it's gone."), I expect that there's more of an opportunity than there was for things to work. There's hope. I expect that she would want closeness. In fact, one of the things that I think will be a signpost to me that the A is really over and out of her mind is when she wants SF just to have it - when she no longer feels like she's cheating on him. But there is so much emotional distance to cover before that is even possible. I know I'm getting way ahead of myself here.

I'm not sure what my next steps should be. I plan to continue to care for her, to make sure she knows I'm thinking about her all the time. But I'm also going to keep a certain amount of distance. She seems to need space, and indeed if she's going through withdrawal (still not convinced), then she needs to process this on her own. She told me that she's not going to cry on my shoulder about it - but I told her that the offer was there if she chose to. I would be there if she wanted.

Last night I took issue with something my W said to me at dinner. I told her that I felt like she was talking down to me. Her response was "don't start with me, I'm not in the mood." I explained that I wasn't starting anything, I was sharing my feelings with her. She then went downstairs. I cleaned up dinner and then had to get on my way to rehearsal. I went down to say goodbye and she started to tell me that she wanted me to put our son to bed before I left - but she did so by telling me how defective I am that I didn't notice that she's not feeling well and ask what I could do for her. I responded that if she would like something from me she can ask. I then told her that I didn't have time to put our son to bed (he was still eating dinner, and I had a committment). I got underway. While I was driving down, our landlord called to let me know he was dropping by to pick up the rent. I called WW and told her this. She was not exactly happy to hear this. She called me back a minute later and asked me to call the landlord back and ask him to call when he got there so she could go upstairs then rather than hanging out up there waiting for him to come. I told her I would (although I was a bit put off that she "asked" me the way she did) and couldn't get him. His phone went straight to voicemail. I called WW back and told her that, and she responded that it would have been a good idea to ask him that initially, and this is an example of how I don't care about her feelings, that I don't consider her. I didn't know how to respond.

Just had our counselling session. It was a bit frustrating because it didn't really seem to go anywhere. I stated my position on the marriage and what I want and what I think can happen, and my WW said that she didn't want it. She said that she hadn't been in contact with OM, but the interesting thing is that she said that it hasn't been going on since I took away the connection - which isn't what she told me. The therapist asked me if I understood that she didn't want this, and I said that I did. But it doesn't change the fact that I believe otherwise and that I believe that her feelings can change.

I felt like I was a lawyer arguing a case. Not really what I wanted, but I felt that I made some very good points.

In the end, the therapist made an allusion to working towards divorce being the only way we can work for now - although I have the sense that she is interested in things working out for us. I'm not really sure what to think.

WW talked about feeling controlled, both in the session and afterwards at home. I told her that I didn't want to control her and that I would like to approach the relationship together and plan and set goals so that we both feel we have equal parts in it. She told me over and over again that she felt that I was controlling her and that I "say" I want this, yet my actions say something different. On a couple of occassions I had to ask her not to make judgments about what my intentions were for acting a certain way, because she was off base. She wanted to stand by her judgments because she doesn't trust my honesty. She thinks I have intentions that I might not even acknowledge. Not fair to me, because I am being honest, to have her see me as other than I am. We talked a bit about the computer issue and she even pointed out that she could have taken out a new connection in her own name, etc., so this proved that I wasn't controlling her. But after realizing this, she still wanted to paint me as "the bad guy." Again she pulled a lot of the past into things and got really upset.

In the session I talked about accepting responsibility for my shortfallings in the relationship and how my actions were addressing this. In particular we talked about boundaries. My WW talked about how she felt that I was masking trying to get my way in the concept of boundaries. I expressed how this was linked to my recognition of issues in my past. I also stated that I have not mastered being appropriately assertive, but that I am getting better. WW's response was that she feels that she can't do anything without being reprimanded by me. The counsellor suggested speaking about feelings rather than criticizing actions or the other person. I agreed, and said that this is what I was trying to do. I'm not trying to control my W, rather I'm trying to make her aware of my feelings at the moment they occur rather than hold it against her and be resentful.

Again, it felt fruitless to discuss this because the big question seemed to be looming: "which direction are we going to take this relationship?" I said that I felt this wasn't the important question right now - I think we can address and improve on a lot of the issues that seem to be causing us difficulty, and that this will be helpful in our relationship going forward, regardless of what shape it takes. It also will help both of us have a good relationship with other people too. My WW talked about feeling trapped again, and the therapist talked about trying to figure out whether it really is the marriage that is trapping her or just her perception of it. I thought this was a really valid point. Anyway, I'm sort of unsettled here. I don't know how much to trust this counselor because she has talked about working towards splitting. I think it might be because working towards a common goal might help us both realize how well we can do together, but I'm not sure.

Oh yeah, and this afternoon WW said to me a couple of times "you think it's all my choices that have gotten us where we are, but you don't recognize that because you kept hurting me you drove all the good feeling I had for you away. I have nothing left because you pushed me so far away. You keep pushing me away."

I'm feeling really down now - and I know I've done it to myself. I'm thinking back on our session this morning and I feel like I made a bit of an [censored] of myself. I don't want to coerce my W back into the marriage, I want her to be here because she wants to be, because she chooses to be. I think I came across as trying to get her to believe the things that I so strongly do, despite the fact that I clearly stated that I was expressing my beliefs and my desires and my goals and acknowledged that just because I want or believe something doesn't mean it will be this way.

My WW talked about compromise. I don't feel that I have anything I can compromise on. How do I meet her halfway? By agreeing to end our relationship under good terms so that it might have a chance of working out? I don't think this is very honest, and that's my focus now, being honest. But then I come back to this question: is my focusing on myself creating resentment and strife in my relationship now? Is this truly "pushing her away"? And even though I shouldn't really be focusing a whole lot on what she thinks about my actions (because that's the unhealthy thinking that got me into this mess in the first place), have I allowed the pendulum to swing too far in the other direction?

All in all, I feel like I'm losing my resolve here. I am tired of fighting, I'm tired of there being a power struggle. I haven't felt connected to my W in a while, I'm not even really sure how to measure this. She's so angry and full of hate - totally directed at me. I feel really alone and judged. I feel like I'm trying to do what's best for everyone, not just myself, yet I'm seen as selfrighteous, and it hurts to be criticized for trying my best. I feel like I'm regarded with utter contempt. Am I deserving of this? No, not really, but I accept it, or have a history of doing so, so in a sense I do deserve it. Plan b is really starting to look more and more like an option to me because of this, but I still have my reservations. I want my son's home to be intact - I want his family to be intact. I don't want to break it up because of this, or for any reason. I want to have as much money as possible available to send him to the best schools, make sure he's got clothes, just take good care of him in general - and we are struggling to do this now, how can we do this for him if we have two households? We can't. I feel trapped. And she says she feels trapped. I wish I could share these feelings with her without feeling that I'm inviting contempt, that I am giving her ammunition to see me as more worthless than she already does.

Well, enough self pity. I have to keep plugging along. I just feel that none of what I do/have done matters. I still have so far to go. Just looking at my issues was difficult enough, actually changing is so slow in coming. But there's measurable progress. After we left therapy WW asked to drive by her new job so she could drop off some paperwork. I asked her if she knew how to get to the building from a particular entrance. She responded with a nasty attitude that she did. I told her a moment later that I didn't feel so good about the way she said that. She responded that she was in a bad mood. "Can't I have a bad mood?"

I have been doing a bit more research on conflict management styles, and I have come to question whether both my W and I are conflict avoiders. Our relationship was really stable because neither of us really brought up issues with the other person. I think we both felt the sense that we sacrificed our feelings for the other, only she more than I. She tends to blow up after something's been festering for a while, and there are lots of offenses to blame me for. I'm not sure how well it fits, because I'm not sure I even fit the mold entirely.

Oh well. Thanks for reading.

Talking down to you? How?

Was she DJing you?



If she believes she is unable to control the way she speaks to you b/c she is in a bad mood, perhaps she could alert you before a meal begins, that way you can eat your dinner away from her.




Why couldn't she call him and tell him this?

Why did you feel it was your responsibility?




Why didn't you end the phone call right after she DJd you?



And did you ask her how she viewed your phone call to her alerting her to the fact that the landlord was on his way?

Did she view that as an example of how you care for her feelings?


What did she tell you? I don't recall.

Did you point this out?



Sounds like you need a new therapist.

If you want a D you might as well call a lawyer.



She doesn't FEEL she can't do anything w/o being reprimanded by you, she BELIEVES it.

Are you asking her not to speak to you in a disrespectful way and then walking away from the conversation?

Or are you pointing out to her when she does something wrong?

There is a difference.

You aren't trying to educate her on what is right or wrong, you're just trying to let her know how you wish to be treated.



Did she give you examples of how you hurt her and pushed her away?


You don't FEEL like you made a bit of an [censored] of yourself...you BELIEVE it...

Ouch! How does believing that help you?



Sounds as though you were honest about what you believed and wanted.



You can't create resentment inside another person.


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Look at how often you use the word "feel" instead of "believe"...





I BELIEVE I'm trying to do what's best for everyone...

I BELIEVE I am regarded w/ utter contempt ...(Why do you believe this?)

B/c you accept disrespect, you deserve it? Ouch.



The good thing about Plan B is that you'll have VERY clear boundaries.

I personally believe you would do very well to go to a very dark Plan B. I think it would be GREAT for you personally, but I also believe it would bring your WW out of her fog.



You believe you are trapped.

Are you?



Please use the word "believe" instead of "feel".

I wish I could share these feelings w/ her w/o BELIEVING that I'm inviting contempt, that I am giving her ammunition to see me as worthless...

You are assuming what she will do and think in the future.

She fell in love you, Muddle, you are still the same man. Stop worrying about how she'll view you and just share yourself.



You just BELIEVE that none of what you do/have done matters.

Ouch! That's a GIGANTIC DJ!



Next time stop the car, tell her you'll be back in a few mins...and go for a walk...

Remove yourself from the conversation.



Tell her, sure she can.

But, she isn't allowed to speak to you in a disrespectful manner.



I think Just Learning hit the nail on the head when he said her Taker and your Giver are getting too big a work out in your M.

You need to balance things out.

~ Marsh