Thanks for checking in Marsh. I'm not sure how consistently this is happening, but that it is is important.

I ended up picking up flowers and some candy for W. I left it in the living room and let her find it (I was outside shoveling snow) and I didn't get a card. I was sensitive to the fact that she would likely feel mixed feelings about it. When I came inside she got on my case saying "don't you think I would have liked to come home to a clean house after I was working all day?" to which I responded that I can understand that she would, but to please understand that I had been working too - I didn't have the day off - and I had to go out and shovel a couple times. I didn't have the time to really clean things up, but I had picked up a bit.

I stopped in on her a couple of times and gave her my undivided attention for about 30 minutes at a time. I listened to her tell me all about work and how she felt about it. I think I judged her a bit too much for my liking (I would have prefered to let her tell me more about what she thought she should do about her feelings - but I got the feeling she was distressed and was working herself up) - even though it was a sincere attempt to help her. She was talking about how incompetent she feels (she's going through orientation now) and how she feels like she doesn't know what to do. She was also frustrated because she was scheduled for full time when she's working part time. I told her that I thought her feelings meant good things for her and that she could use them constructively. Her bad feelings about being scheduled improperly were a call to action - she needs to talk to her boss and get that straightened out. And her feelings of incompetence should drive her to get answered any questions she might have. I was basically trying to convey to her that her emotions are not bad, they are information about how she's feeling - that there are steps she needs to take. Use them constructively, don't judge and condemn yourself for feeling a certain way because you think you shouldn't, or you think it's not normal. She did seem to take this well and I'm pretty sure she saw my point. I felt uncomfortable giving her advice. A bit fearful that I was taking a position above hers (or that she would interpret it this way) and that my doing so would make her uncomfortable and sever the connection we seemed to be experiencing then.

Later in the evening, after I had gone upstairs, she dropped by the room. She told me "I really appreciate the stuff you got me for valentines day. I didn't say anything before because it makes me feel a little uncomfortable. I always have a hard time with it and with things the way they are I feel strange. I wanted to tell you that I do appreciate it though." It was really sincere and nice to hear. I wish she hadn't felt uncomfortable, but it's to be expected. It's nice to be thought of, and I hope she focused on this rather than thinking about how insensitive I am because I got her stuff when she doesn't want to have a relationship like that with me and I just don't get it and I just don't respect her desire to not have anything like this. All in all I appreciate that she shared how she was feeling with me, even if the feelings weren't what I would hope my gifts would inspire. Her sincere and honest sharing mean a lot.

Ok, I sent the following letter to my WW about a year ago. I think it touches on a couple of themes that I want to make part of my Plan B letter. Yes, I think it's really time to start seriously planning my plan b. I'm tired and even though there have been some positive signs, overall I think I'm contributing to this marriage being run into the ground. WW is always frustrated and blames it on me, and I feel like she thinks she's doing me a favor by tolerating me. I'm a great person and nobody should just tolerate me. I should be appreciated as I appreciate my W.

Here's the letter. Any thoughts are welcome.

Hmmmm, I see lots of DJ's in that letter, how 'bout you?

Also I think every PBL ought to open w/ the following sentence, "This may be the last letter I ever write to you."

VERY powerful beginning.

~ Marsh

Marsh,

The letter I quoted isn't my Plan B letter, it's a letter I sent last year expressing my feelings and perspective on the whole thing. I don't think I whole lot from my point of view. But you're right, there are DJs all over the place. I also acknowledge that I'm holding her responsible for my feelings and even some of my actions - albeit indirectly.

I like your idea for how to start the letter though. I'm going to draft one in the next couple of days.

Get this, me wishing WW a goodnight is "insulting" and condescending. I don't get it.

I know it was. I thought that if you wanted to use parts of that letter in your PBL that you might want to edit out the DJ's first.

Before you start your draft I think you ought to figure out what your boundaries are. What do you need her to do in order for you to consider taking her back?

Do you know for certain that OM is out of the picture?



She's not judging your actions (saying goodnight) she's judging your thoughts, intentions and feelings again.

~ Marsh

I'm popping in for one point here...

Kudos on seeing your DJs, how much you've changed, what your perspective was then and how much different it is now, MT.

"Get this, me wishing WW a goodnight is "insulting" and condescending. I don't get it."

Respect is acknowledging what you don't get...and faith in getting it...saying "Good night" is like telling someone to have a good night...telling them what to experience. Raw stuff there. Does that help clear up how telling some to "Have a nice day" "Be good!" are telling people what their experience should be?

Getting to the raw truth of what we say is a way to say, "Hey, I'm aware!" Sounds like you are. We've been taught that wishing people well will make it come true...show our intent...instead of stating it. These are shortened courtesies, btw. Used to come from longer stuff.."I wish you well." "I wish you a good night." "I bid you good day." They had ownership...letting the listener know it was about us, not them.

Respecting what others experience as theirs...not our doing to them...is honoring that they are separate and equal humans. You sharing here that you didn't get it was ownership...

Now do you?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

Pop in often.

You are such a blessing.

~ Marsh

Thank you guys for dropping in. I'm having a bit of a hard time today - I'm sure a good deal of it is due to my judgment again. Maybe you can help me sort it out. This afternoon I asked my W if she was angry. She seemed stressed (we went out in the morning to the mall and had lunch out. We seemed to do well in the morning, but she seemed to get more distant the more often frustrating things happened. She also seemed to get angry at me. She fell asleep in the car on the way home, something I see as her escaping being in a frustrating situation, especially when she had plenty of sleep last night. She responded to my question that she wasn't angry, she was miserable. She started asking me how long this nonsense was going to go on. She started talking about how we just don't work together. How she doesn't want to be in our home, whether I'm in it or not. She doesn't want to be near me ever. She said that I don't know how to take care of her, she thinks I do only what I want to do, what I feel (I didn't say this, but I don't think I agreed to "take care of her" - I care for her, but I'm not her parent). She said I don't take her seriously. I told her that I do take her seriously, that her thoughts and feelings DO matter to me, and that if my actions are not conveying this to her, it's my error. I asked her what I can do to convey this to her. What can I do? She wouldn't give me an answer. She told me that it was up to me to figure it out. This is often an issue between us. She can ALWAYS tell me what I'm doing wrong, but will never redirect me in a positive way.

The conversation continued upstairs a bit later. The flowers and candy I bought her for valentine's day were in the living room. She told me that this was an example of how I don't take her seriously. She said that she would have prefered to have her house cleaned the way she wants it done over flowers and candy. She said she didn't even really like that stuff. She asked me if I thought she would. I told her that I thought she would appreciate being cared for in this way - being thought of. She used that to prove that I acted out of self interest and self gratification. I didn't consider that she wouldn't like this stuff - especially because our anniversary is only 10 days away. We have always agreed that it didn't really make sense to get stuff for valentine's because of this. And the fact that I got her something shows that I don't care enough to remember her likes/dislikes. Also, when I told her that I got her a gift - it wasn't an either/or thing. It's not like she didn't get the house cleaned because she got flowers. She responded "shouldn't I have a say in what I get?" Somewhere in there I made a comment about how it was her choice to see my gesture as a negative thing. She got a bit upset about this. The sees this sort of thing as blaming. I see it as empowering her. I'm reminding her that she has the choice to see things differently. I don't want to do something that continues to harm the situation, but I also don't want to stop doing something good because she chooses to see it the way she does. I guess it comes down to the whole "you need to change for our marriage to work" dynamic, and when told to, neither of us want to. This is a natural phenomenon, nothing to feel guilty about, but it still is a consideration.

Another thing that came up is her frustration with finances. She is really resentful that I don't make enough money to give her the lifestyle she wants without her "having to pick up the slack." I don't really want to be defensive about this, but I never told her that I would take care of everything and give her the life of a princess. I feel like she's acting like a spoiled brat - entitled to everything and blaming me for her not being able to get it. I know I can improve on our status, and I'm working towards that end, but I feel like I'm being torn down from every angle - there's always some negative to point out, even in the good that I do. Then I get to judging her - thinking she's doing all she can to push me away, trying to make me miserable (because that was she can get what she wants, a divorce) and shifting responsibility for her life from herself onto me. Not solving problems because that would require taking responsibility for a part in them, but escaping them and blaming me for the entirety of them. I know I can be frustrating, but that's life. She needs to deal with things that frustrate her, not just avoid and escape them. I don't want to be a part of the problem, enabling her by helping her avoid things she doesn't like. But often I feel she's hurt by me when I don't insulate her from these facts of life.

She believes that I want control but not responsibility. She thinks I make decisions with my interests in mind, even when it comes to parenting. She told me that she saw me tell our son two opposing things because on different days. Basically saying that I was lazy one day so I didn't follow through in any disciplined way. There was no specific event brought up, so it was difficult to discuss this, but I asked her if it was possible that I had a valid, parenting reason to approach similar things differently. I asked her not to judge my parenting because I work very hard to act on our son's best interests. She didn't agree.

In the end, I felt really hurt. WW wanted me to leave, and wants me out of her life (why she does or whether it's rational or unrealistic or anything else, it doesn't change the fact that it hurts to hear this - even though I'm somewhat numb to it). I took things too personally, and soon after having a tearful moment alone in our bedroom I realized that I shouldn't take it personally. Just because she directed things at me as though all of this is due to my personal defects doesn't make it so. That stupid saying about how when you point your finger there are three pointing back at you comes to mind. It's just tough to feel like a complete failure - and I do this to myself, I judge myself based on how little change there's been in my W's regard of me, but also on my lack of significant progress on a lot of the goals I have set for myself. I felt angry, and I have no doubt that these feelings I have about myself have to do with my anger. I wanted to dump the cup of water I had in my hand over her head, but recognized that this wouldn't do either of us any good. She wasn't to blame for my feeling bad, she just catalyzed some feelings that I have about myself.

I think see where you're coming from here. I said something more along the lines of "I hope you have a good night" which I guess still conveys that my intentions should make it so. In my understanding of how my W meant this though, I don't think this comes into play very much. She basically said "I'm frustrated, I'm miserable, I'm unhappy. How can I possibly have a good night?"


I really like you point here about how our culture shortens courtesies and takes the ownership out of it. Out language really has a profound impact on how we relate with the world. In losing the ownership the boundary between us and them really gets blurry.

Regarding the terms and conditions of my accepting my W back, I struggle with this. Clearly NC for life is non-negotiable, but I'm not sure where else to start. I'm not sure what else I should ask for. My W has always been relatively honest - even if she does talk about thoughts and actions to convey feelings. Even if she does accuse me of acting improperly to convey that she feels wronged. I want her to basically figure out what it would take for her to be successful in any relationship. I want her to read relationship books and learn techniques. I want her to stop using the relationship as a way to absolve herself of responsibility over her feelings and the direction of her life. I want her to stand up and be my equal. I don't want her to play these games anymore where she hands me something, won't take it back, and then blames me for withholding it just to paint me as controlling.

I'm feeling hopeless though. I want to ask for, or require things that are reasonable, and I don't think requiring my W to change is reasonable. I know she can be an incredible wife to me if she wanted to be. She sees where I deserve better, and if she was so motivated I'm sure she would know best how to give me that. Can I require this? I am somewhat hopeless now about what can reasonably come from this relationship. We still have our ups and downs, but there's still this underlying argument my WW is giving me that we don't work and never will. She sabotages our interactions and undermines communication and then points to the relationship as not working, as if it were something in and of itself. I find myself wondering whether this is just her, that maybe she can't take responsibility for her problems. Maybe the only way she knows how to deal with problems is to run away from them and find an excuse to get her out of the blame. Maybe asking her to address this is unreasonable. I know you never know until you try. Why limit my possibilities with my own speculation?

Hi Muddle,

Here's a post written by myschae..

My ‘hills to die on’ would include many of the things that Star mentioned. But, I also include other core agreements that me and my H have made. Basically, I consider anything that would lead to ‘chronic unhappiness’ for either of us a boundary in this marriage. It’s a pretty high standard, but I’ve found that aiming high has been a pretty good strategy.

Here are some of my boundaries:

- I will not remain in a marriage in which I am chronically unhappy and my needs are not to be met. That means I am not going to languish here in this marriage if there is going to be no effort to meet my EN’s after I’ve stated them and communicated them clearly. This marriage is a partnership. That means that if I have a problem concerning the marriage then WE have a problem concerning the marriage. I don’t expect him to accept my proffered solutions; but I absolutely 100% expect him to get on board and help me address any issues that I uncover whether they are bothering him or not. And, that works both ways. Just because it doesn’t bother me doesn’t mean that I don’t dedicate 100% of my resources to fixing whatever he doesn’t like. (This is essentially POJA.)

- I will not remain in a marriage in which I am not permitted to communicate freely about ANY subject or topic. That means that there is no topic that is a LB to bring up. That includes any ‘problems’ or ‘issues’ that I have with the marriage and how I would like to be treated. Obviously, I am willing to negotiate when and how such topics are discussed. But, either we find some way to communicate about difficult or sticky issues or the partnership will break down.

- I will not remain in a marriage in which I am abused in any way. I am not willing to be yelled at, cursed at, called derogatory names, physically manhandled, threatened, intimidated, financially starved, sexually abused, or any other type of abuse. My mental and physical health and well being is put before the needs of this marriage at all times. It is never, even once, OK for my health and well being to be threatened by this marriage. I draw strong boundaries around abusive behavior because I simply have no tolerance for it. Not all the boundaries I draw include leaving. For example, if I’m being yelled at, then I will simply remove myself. Other types of abuse would generate a much stronger reaction.

- I will not remain in a marriage in which retributive or vengeful behavior is used on EITHER side. That means that constructive ways of dealing with problems and issues WILL be used. I am completely uninterested in playing ‘head games’ with my husband. If something is bothering either or us or makes us angry, I expect us to use conventional communication methods to convey that information. Engaging in ‘tit for tat’ type of behavior simply drives me insane. My FOO was really accomplished at this. I put up with it for 20+ years. I am unwilling to bring that nonsense forward into the rest of my life. (This is essentially Radical Honesty and also incorporates eliminating DJ’s.) I refuse to guess what’s wrong with him. Nor, do I ever expect him to figure out what I’m thinking. If it’s relevant, then it’s communicated in direct, respectful, English.

- I will not remain in a marriage in which I am not the primary partner. That means that, while I don’t expect him to compromise his core beliefs and sacrifice himself on my behalf, I come before his mother, his job, his friends, the dog, the cat, the hamster, the fish, the lawn, the housework, etc. When we make marital decisions there are exactly two (2) votes. In laws don’t get a vote. Friends don’t get a vote. The latest Gallup poll does not get a vote. This is not a marriage by committee. I’m not going to compete. Thankfully, affairs have not been a problem in my marriage, but this would also cover that possibility. This also addresses getting the 15+ hours of time together each week. I’ll admit that I’m pretty ‘high maintenance’ and I like a lot of time. The way it works in our relationship is that I get first choice of his time and then everyone else gets to share him after that. It works out pretty well, though. Since I’m confident that I won’t be put second, I can usually afford to be pretty easy to ‘convinced’ to share. (offer me a deal which I can be enthusiastic about).

All these agreements (boundaries, “hills”) do set a very high standard for our marriage. They’ve worked very well for us over the years. I’d say we’re very happy and both seem to rate our martial satisfaction very high. Most of them form the core of the MB program. This is why I am such a strong advocate of MB. My experience shows that a HAPPY marriage is very possible in which both spouses work together and retain both love and ‘in love’ feelings using this system. I heartily encourage you to adopt the MB high standards. Build in things that are positive influences when you state your boundaries. Don’t just concentrate on what negatives you’d like to avoid or eliminate.


Here's a link to a thread about boundaries that might help you...

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...e=0&fpart=1



You are allowed to decide what kind of marriage you want to have, Muddle. If she is unwilling (I don't believe she is incapable) to give you what you want then you ought to MOVE ON.

YOU matter.

~ Marsh

MT,

Thank you for your reply...another question...

"She basically said "I'm frustrated, I'm miserable, I'm unhappy. How can I possibly have a good night?"

What's not to get, then? If she's saying what she feels, why wish her to not feel them...to have a good night? I think this is important, not semantics here...one of those things where we say we're listening, understanding and acknowledging...and the negating when we subtle wish someone different feelings, thoughts...

Emotions are signals, MT...when humans feel frustrated, we can usually trace that signal to our own expectations...great way for frustration to drop away is to say, "I expected to get this or that response, and I didn't" and then check to see if that was a reasonable expectation...

And usually, expecting response isn't reasonable.

You never know what you're gonna get...'cuz you aren't her.

Goes back the arguing stuff I read, where you didn't own you started arguments, but you backed into it saying you are more aware of sharing rather discussing, so you don't promote arguments...reasonable on your side...knowing and choosing your intent...are you saying that an argument takes two or more people? One to try to put their opinions on the other...so you will enforce your boundary if she does that? Or is that a boundary around you, where you will listen and repeat, not to persuade or direct, only to know?

Or are you saying you can get her to not argue by your approach?

I hear you saying she tells you you're defective often...

Can you say "Ouch!"...seriously? Aloud? When you feel a smacking pain inside...can you?

It's a great signal to share your feeling in an abrupt, near-reactive way...without disrespecting...Ouch says there is pain, doesn't state where it's coming from...

It's an alert...not an information guide.

Then you trace it, right there, during a conversation, and both of you can discover something about your communication...

You can perceive "I feel alone in our marriage" as you being defective...doesn't necessarily mean that...we are lonely when we long most for ourselves. You can feel a huge OUCH though...state and trace it...and then say, "I perceive that to be me making you feel alone. I just realized I make stuff about me which is solely yours."

That's good to know!

Ownership eliminates blame...have to take blame (can't be given); Ownership can't be given...it's already our inherent responsibility.

When your focus remains on her...instead of you...you will feel your pain of betrayal doubled, along with sense of annihilation, fear of abandonment, and attack...'cuz you're doing that to yourself by choosing to focus on what you cannot to control...to judge, try to classify and contain that over which you have no domain.

I remember.

When you ask what do you require for her to come back to the marriage...would you consider she is in the marriage right now? She's there? NC for life is a great marital boundary...how about MC/IC? Doing Harley's home study course? 15 hours of UA a week, RC time...communication exercises? Not to change her...to change your marriage? Benefit yourself...your son?

The way to recover is about actions...respecting her truth from The Truth from your truth...

Boundaries are around ourselves...we cannot do to others or ourselves what we don't allow others to do to us...if your WW defines you...tells you who you are, what to feel, think, believe, how to perceive or view...that's abusive. So you stay aware of defining others...so you can enforce your boundary around yourself...otherwise, the imbalance will spiral you down.

I had no clue about verbal abuse until I read "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" and then read parts aloud to DH...who was WH at the time...I shared where I discovered how I abused, how I saw him abuse...and my huge one on the outside were DJs...and so were his, only on the inside (unspoken ones)...mine were AOs...a real basher, I was...and his was the silent treatment, the withholding, forgetting...

I really don't think we would have made it to recovery without me owning my own stuff...and doing so as I spoke, "Oh, that's a DJ. How 'bout that?" And he began to question, own and challenge himself to hold to his boundary...of course, I had JL and Pep on me for the DJs...so I had power in my corner.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"Somewhere in there I made a comment about how it was her choice to see my gesture as a negative thing. She got a bit upset about this. The sees this sort of thing as blaming. I see it as empowering her. I'm reminding her that she has the choice to see things differently."

You guys had a past agreement to not get stuff for VDay, rather to do it on your Anniversary...you broke that agreement...changed it up...acknowledge you did that. You took the risk and chose to act from love...not for her response...she's not obligated to like, enjoy or embrace a thing...you got your reward in the great feeling from acting on your love. Good to know she felt discounted, not considered...doesn't make it real.

Telling her how to view, perceive, believe is abusive. I hear her really asking questions, "Where's my part? Why do I feel this way?" and NOT "You did a bad thing...mean, wrong and uncalled for."

So stop empowering your WW and listen to her...to really know her stuff is hers...for you. A tool I used was flipping stuff back over on myself...when I wanted to tell my DH to see something differently, I would take whatever it was and do it myself..."How can I see this differently?" I projected a lot...tamed it into a tool great for my own self growth.

When I feel the urge to teach...I know I'm the student.

Like now...seeing myself in your posts, parts of me, and remembering...which re-aligns me today. Probably needed to tell myself this again.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

One of the things in recoverying from A's is that we have the opportunity to change the stuff we had been wrestling our whole life...long before our partners...and mine was, I chose my actions and words based on possible response...

I was a slave to others in this manner...which was fine by me, 'cuz I lived externally...this was part of it.

When I decided to consciously not live outside of my own self, began my homecoming, I had to revoke my permission to act based on the outcome; chose rather to base my actions on my code and let the outcome go...

Is that something you'd be interested in?

LA

I see your point here, and it is a really good one. My W does feel that I am always contradicting her. On some level this is making her feel that her feelings are wrong or bad. I think on some level that they are. This is my issue. I need to let go of judging her feelings and accept them for what they are - not see them as a source of suffering for her. Now, the relationship problem here is that it's only after she tells me that I'm insulting her does she tell me how she was feeling. I can't assume that she's always having a bad day, or feeling frustrated. I don't want to assume that, because it colors our world, excludes the joy and beauty that's here and now in this moment. I don't want to educate her (although on some level I do because I take issue with her "unhealthy" perspective on the world), but I choose to look for things to appreciate in my life as often as I can. I choose to see the positive, and to focus on it, because it's healthy to do so, because in doing so I maintain positive memories and create new ones. It is a way of respecting this life I was given, this body. So the real message I'm sending is, if I really am sending a message, if you take into account the context of my perspective is not that she should NOT feel what she does, but that she should focus on the positive that's there. That she should enjoy, find pleasure. Essentially it's the same thing. Why should my opinion that joy is better than brooding mean that she should feel or act that way too? It's in these moments that I feel so disconected from her, I feel like my image is at the center of her suffering and even though I acknowledge that her feelings are her feelings, and the issue, I still am fighting the belief that I AM personally at the center of all of this. I'm making her personal issues about me.


I'm really a bit lost on this. I really do believe that I maintain my focus on having conversations that don't turn into arguments, but still communicate our ideas. I am the quiet one, she's explosive. I'm sure that the active vs. passive control issue is at play, and therefore I'm a part of the argument whether I look like it or not. I can't really remember the last time I started an argument - I think I've made statements that my W has responded to with anger. Yes, I think I have tried to get her not to argue by my approach. I also acknowledge that this isn't what I want to do. I don't want to try and manipulate her. I need to focus on listening better.


I have felt very different in the past year or so regarding loneliness. I haven't felt lonely much. I have been busy, and I have really felt good about loving. In fact I remember one day not too long ago where I was really filled with joy and felt SO loved. It was my love being given that made me feel this way. So I don't know if I would say I feel alone in the marriage. I recognize it conceptually, and a lot of what I expect from marriage is missing, but yet it's not. Are you suggesting that I believe that I'm defective and therefore I am so sensitive to it that any criticism is taken this way? I've considered this idea before, and it's funny because I first thought about this with regard to my W and her actions.


You know, I think I always focused more on myself before this all started. I felt attacked and instead of addressing my W's actions I rationalized them, and I compensated internally for all of this. I didn't really focus on her as my attacker, I don't even think I acknowleged being attacked, rather I tried to figure out why I was sensitive when I was an figure out how to numb it. I guess it was a way of testing the strength of my protective shell. Now I know I need to acknowledge my feelings, as well as the fact that I take part in shaping and creating them with my thoughts and the associations I draw from my personal history to what's occuring at present. I have always allowed her to be who she is and act however she did - I focused on me, not on her. I guess I was trying to manipulate her though by not responding to it. If I allowed her to see me defenseless she should feel guilty for her abuse and stop it. She should be indebted to me in some way.


Yes, I know she's in the marriage, and that's one of the things that keeps me in it as well. I work to interact with her as productively as possible. It's part of what's so frustrating about her side of the interactions. I'm weary of seeing things so black and white though. I know it's not, yet I continue to see through this filter. I don't want to be selfrighteous. So yes, she's in the marriage, yet she's not committed to it. I guess I'm talking about her committment to making a great marriage as her return to it. She's not the problem, just as I'm not. Our interactions are. Our personal problems do impact the success of our marriage, and unless I can fix myself, I fear that my W will never accept me though. This kind of paradoxical thinking drives me nuts.


This is where I get myself in trouble all the time, and it has roots in "defective" territory. My memory isn't very good. My W's is unreal. I didn't remember that we had any such agreement. I didn't even think of it. This in itself indicates to my W that I don't care about her or take her seriously, which is her judgment and founded in fantasy, not reality. I don't entirely trust that we had any such agreement. I find myself suspicious about whether we did or not. But you're right, I took a risk and I don't think she's obligated to appreciate it. I guess I got defensive because she decided to take my good intentions and turn them into something nasty - essentially making my soul dark rather than owning her negative feelings that resulted from my actions. I did get my reward from my actions, but it's soured by my allowing her to get inside my boundaries and judge my essence.


I didn't mean to tell her how to do anything. I simply pointed out an option because I felt I was being unfairly judged. I see how I'm perpetuating the cycle of judging in doing this though. I wish it didn't take so much digestion before I realized this. I want to be able to change my behavior, and identifying the problems in my behavior hours and days after the fact doesn't seem to help much.

Thanks for taking the time here. It really helps to have your perspective (you and Marsh), but I am feeling somewhat hopeless. I'm seeing this huge divide between where I want to be and where I am, and I see myself in the same position relative to where I want to be everytime I check.

MT,

Thank you for responding to my post...and for choosing an open mind...to not hear what I wrote as an attack...

May not sound like much...to me, it is...because you aren't doing what your W is doing...which hearing what she expects, not what's being said.

She expects to be contradicted...doesn't mean you are choosing to do that anymore...will take a little time until this reality sinks in...

"Now, the relationship problem here is that it's only after she tells me that I'm insulting her does she tell me how she was feeling."

Which is why you have boundary which says you don't allow yourself to define others...or be defined. "I hear you saying you feel I am insulting you, that you perceive my intent is to put you down."

Clarifying is always my first boundary enforcement. I know I can hear what I expect, what I'm used to hearing (Sound of Music...what I've heard before)...and it's not necessarily being said.

Then stating what the boundary violation is "When you state your opinions, your stuff, as fact, that's telling me what I'm doing, defining me. I won't do that to you anymore and I ask for your help in identifying when I do. I ask you not to do that to me. Your opinion is valid. Doesn't have to be made to see a fact."

"(although on some level I do because I take issue with her "unhealthy" perspective on the world),"

Have you experienced someone else doing something you do in a totally different way, to where it feels foreign and bizarre? I found that if I focus on accepting, not judging their choices, then I usually can find something in it I hadn't considered before.

And it's usually important.

And connective.

When I chose to only see my way as better, I lost that connection, understanding, acceptance...and continued to enmesh rather than respect.

Glad you got that...this is anti-acceptance stuff...and yeah, I made that up so I didn't have to type that you were rejecting her stuff...which also rejects your stuff, in you.

Good to know you feel connected in agreement...when someone can see through your eyes like you do, feel, think and believe like you do...those intersections we do have in life...which are intersections only...they vary. For me, learning to agree to disagree was finally my way into myself to get all of me...even parts which disagreed.

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I can't connect through judgment...only acceptance. Hearing and being heard; understanding and being understood...doesn't take someone agreeing with me anymore, though I do slip back into old habits...takes someone sharing with me. Which I find to be a profound choice.

Yes, I hear my DH say he feels anxious, angry, fearful--that people weren't good to him today...and then I hear, "I lost my perspective. I got it back the last hour of my shift."

Good to know. Not good to judge. His journey, shared.

Hard to let go, MT; I remember. I felt safe when I was agreed with, when I was right, when my way was better...I was also stunted in my perspective...and couldn't see it for the judgment...and kept experiencing feel rejected, put down and hearing I'm wrong...when it was me not accepting, wantint to lift up (which tells the other person they are down), and feeling wrong inside...signalling myself to change...me...not the other person.


"but I choose to look for things to appreciate in my life as often as I can. I choose to see the positive, and to focus on it, because it's healthy to do so, because in doing so I maintain positive memories and create new ones."

I'm not saying this is wrong...I live more like you do...and my DH doesn't. I think a balance between the positive and what appears negative is healthy...and neither to an extreme...and I believe I was attracted to my DH for this opposite, and he to me...for this balance.

"It is a way of respecting this life I was given, this body. So the real message I'm sending is, if I really am sending a message, if you take into account the context of my perspective is not that she should NOT feel what she does, but that she should focus on the positive that's there. That she should enjoy, find pleasure. Essentially it's the same thing. Why should my opinion that joy is better than brooding mean that she should feel or act that way too?"

Look how many times you used the word "should" towards her and yourself. Shouldin' all over the place. What I hear you saying is that you aren't telling her what to feel, just how to feel better? Change her feelings using your method? Change her signals to herself?

I gotta refer to the bible now...or The Birds...Turn, Turn, Turn...to every season...is the song of acceptance...and brooding is a DJ...getting our signals is difficult...we grew being told we "shouldn't" have them...only positive ones...run from the sadness (which is how we heal), anger (an alert to a boundary crossing), frustration (signalling us to examine our expectation), even miserable (usually feeling what we don't want to feel) connects us to an imbalance in ourselves...usually two beliefs in conflict, or perceptions. Brooding as contemplation...our routine of not identifying the signals separately, only feeling them and focusing on the result.

"It's in these moments that I feel so disconected from her, I feel like my image is at the center of her suffering and even though I acknowledge that her feelings are her feelings, and the issue, I still am fighting the belief that I AM personally at the center of all of this. I'm making her personal issues about me."

I'm happy you're fighting that choice...to see yourself at the center of her suffering...pain is necessary, suffering is optional (which is what I believe your belief is)...can you swerve your focus back to yourself and find where this urge benefits you...what kind of payoff you get, and if it's real or false?

"I'm really a bit lost on this. I really do believe that I maintain my focus on having conversations that don't turn into arguments, but still communicate our ideas."

I didn't come at you straight, so I will now. Do you believe you have the power over a conversation? You can choose not to argue...to not refute...you cannot control others for their half of the connection. You can strive first to understand, then be understood...focus on not refuting...not trying to make yourself heard or understood...and you can hear your own stuff as you speak, which I found really beneficial.

What I thought I heard was you saying you control the tempo, the environment around a conversation, and I wanted to challenge that belief. I didn't do it clearly.

"I am the quiet one, she's explosive. I'm sure that the active vs. passive control issue is at play, and therefore I'm a part of the argument whether I look like it or not. I can't really remember the last time I started an argument"

Have their been times when you didn't respond, which started an argument?

"I think I've made statements that my W has responded to with anger. Yes, I think I have tried to get her not to argue by my approach. I also acknowledge that this isn't what I want to do. I don't want to try and manipulate her. I need to focus on listening better."

I changed my listening by changing my intent first...taping into my honest desire to know...to know...not to judge, teach, control or protect...just to know...and then I listened better...we did listen and repeat exercises...and that's when I knew I could control my side of any interaction...took time, patience and commitment to my intent.

Took me facing I couldn't control our communication...only my communication.

Focused on acknowledgment, clarifying and hearing my own filter.

Then sharing it.

"Are you suggesting that I believe that I'm defective and therefore I am so sensitive to it that any criticism is taken this way? I've considered this idea before, and it's funny because I first thought about this with regard to my W and her actions."

Good to know you're experiencing feeling loved as you've upped your awareness and ownership...no loneliness in that...what I'm asking you is if you see yourself as the cause of her stuff...what's your payoff? Projection is a healthy tool, in my opinion. To know what we're projecting, is a signal to self...where a direct signal didn't work to get our attention, an indirect one may. Which is why I flip it over...if I feel something from observing someone else doing/feeling/saying something, I flip it over and ask myself, is that in me?

I see you as introspective and authentically interested in yourself...flipping over would be an act of love, I think, easy for you to do...except for this one thing...

"I didn't really focus on her as my attacker, I don't even think I acknowleged being attacked, rather I tried to figure out why I was sensitive when I was an figure out how to numb it. I guess it was a way of testing the strength of my protective shell. Now I know I need to acknowledge my feelings, as well as the fact that I take part in shaping and creating them with my thoughts and the associations I draw from my personal history to what's occuring at present. I have always allowed her to be who she is and act however she did - I focused on me, not on her. I guess I was trying to manipulate her though by not responding to it. If I allowed her to see me defenseless she should feel guilty for her abuse and stop it. She should be indebted to me in some way."

What we do to ourselves, we do to others...that inherent two-way street which isn't in our control...just is. When you attempt to numb yourself (which was great awareness), you will attempt to numb others...stop their signals...when you attempt to protect yourself from your own stuff, you'll try to protect others from theirs. Not bad or good...saying this for awareness...so we know where we trip ourselves up and why.

We have been taught that it's okay to bash ourselves as long as we don't bash others...you can see where this imbalance can create a lot of pain.

I appreciate your honesty with yourself and the way you share in your posts.

"Yes, I know she's in the marriage, and that's one of the things that keeps me in it as well."

Awareness point...one of the reasons...when you can freely choose to be in the marriage with or without her demonstrated desire to be in it, then you'll let go the outcome. One can't manipulate when they let go the outcome.

"I work to interact with her as productively as possible."

Sharing is sharing...intimacy is a choice...you act intimately because your base desire is to know and be known...not productive, positive, acquiring, advancing...you do it because it's your own mandate, heart's desire. To judge productivity is to judge...and if you're judging yourself, you can trust you're judging her.

"It's part of what's so frustrating about her side of the interactions. I'm weary of seeing things so black and white though. I know it's not, yet I continue to see through this filter."

Can you better identify when the black/white, all or nothing comes on? Is in response to feeling hurt? Humans have inner children...we do...and two triggers which get us there in less than a heartbeat are pain and fear. Knowing when we are there, not fighting it--is the way we heal from the inside out.

"I don't want to be selfrighteous. So yes, she's in the marriage, yet she's not committed to it. I guess I'm talking about her committment to making a great marriage as her return to it. She's not the problem, just as I'm not. Our interactions are. Our personal problems do impact the success of our marriage, and unless I can fix myself, I fear that my W will never accept me though. This kind of paradoxical thinking drives me nuts."

You're not broken, MT. You really aren't. Changing your choice to live from self-image to authentic self is alignment, not fixing. If you'll fix yourself, you know you'll fix her. Which is why you'll feel a low-level, consistent rejection...from her, coming from yourself. Key words to knowing you're in your child-mindset are "never, ever, forever, always, nothing, all"...good to know; feels awful when judged. You can't make anyone accept you...has no bearing on the reality you are completely acceptable. Your actions may not be, at times...YOU are.

"This is where I get myself in trouble all the time, and it has roots in "defective" territory. My memory isn't very good."

Is your memory good for what you're enthusiastic about? Your passions? What if you made this agreement and weren't really agreeing to it? Did it to pacify rather than commit to? Would that mean you have a bad memory, or what you focus on strays away from feeling those signals which alert you to self-deception, resentment and feeling controlled, demanded of?

"My W's is unreal. I didn't remember that we had any such agreement. I didn't even think of it. This in itself indicates to my W that I don't care about her or take her seriously, which is her judgment and founded in fantasy, not reality. I don't entirely trust that we had any such agreement. I find myself suspicious about whether we did or not. But you're right, I took a risk and I don't think she's obligated to appreciate it. I guess I got defensive because she decided to take my good intentions and turn them into something nasty"

Nasty is a judgment and it's a vague one...what do you believe she had the power to change here...your actions remained...did you have expectations on how she would react to your actions?

"- essentially making my soul dark rather than owning her negative feelings that resulted from my actions."

Would you consider we don't have positive or negative feelings...we have signals, a huge variety?

"I did get my reward from my actions, but it's soured by my allowing her to get inside my boundaries and judge my essence."

Solid acknowledgement. Can you do a flip over here, as well? Would look like, "Do I get inside her boundaries and judge her essence?"

"I didn't mean to tell her how to do anything."

I believe your intent wasn't consciously instructional.

"I simply pointed out an option because I felt I was being unfairly judged."

To free yourself from others' judgment, you revoke permission for yourself to judge...that's your half, under your control...amazing how that two-way street works...the less you judge, the less you feel/perceive being judged...and the other part is once you hold to that boundary, live up to it, then you enforce it. Works together that way.

You have a permission to judge fairly...I'm asking you to consider revoking the permission entirely...fair is subjective...same as positive and negative feelings...judgment IS...feelings ARE...lots of power draining out of you when these two facts are overstepped to get to manipulate your OWN feelings, as well.

"I see how I'm perpetuating the cycle of judging in doing this though. I wish it didn't take so much digestion before I realized this."

Another inner child moment...as an adult, you know that it takes what it takes...you can't get to right here without all the previous right here, right nows...penultimate moments...the more you accept that you got here, lived through to here, and choose to believe the only way here is the way you came...the less you'll resist the digestion and embrace it...key to thriving.

"I want to be able to change my behavior, and identifying the problems in my behavior hours and days after the fact doesn't seem to help much."

To change my behavior, I began with my beliefs...tracing my signals back to the beliefs they were coming from, finding out if they were old beliefs, created in childhood, or my adult beliefs, through my experience. Brought me fully into the present...stopped reacting and began acting. Freedom rocks.

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"Thanks for taking the time here. It really helps to have your perspective (you and Marsh), but I am feeling somewhat hopeless. I'm seeing this huge divide between where I want to be and where I am, and I see myself in the same position relative to where I want to be everytime I check."

You know where I find hope? The more I can see God's design of humans, the more clearly, deeply and automatically hope...I was an abusive, disrespectful serial cheater...and now, I am not. To me, hope is in our molecules because our freedom to change at any time, through choice and ownership...our power...our limits...in the design. Judgment kills hope, acceptance and reality...takes The Truth and puts it in unconscious hands...lose the judgment, gain hope, acceptance and reality.

You can do this...you are already doing a lot of it...get your signals...all of them...trace to know, not to judge...and listen to her stuff as it is...hers (hopper on your head)...share your stuff...with her.

This is Radical Honesty...openness and honesty...and choose to accept that all anyone tells you, you already know, it's confirmed inside you, with a click, shudder or warmth, a light...'cuz it's already in you...your whole, complete self...right there.

And you're not alone.

LA

LA, thank you.

I'm going to digest this a bit and respond later, hopefully with a little more thought than I could give now.

Ok, I don't have a whole lot of time now, so I'll do this little by little.


Thank you for sharing. Having an open mind has always been something I value. It has its pros and cons (the cons I have been finding myself experiencing lately). As I said a little earlier, I don't see much as an attack. If I respond in a way that sounds defensive it's usually because I'm trying to clarify something, not because I'm trying to defend against a perceived attack.


I wonder, though, whether the judgment that leads me to expect your intentions to be to help me is precluding me from seeing anything you write as an attack.


I really like this and I will practice it.


I love seeing people do things differently than I do. I love it because I think everyone can do anything - if a person can do something any other person CAN do the same - and just as everyone is unique, they all have a different set of experiences to draw creatively from. They will solve the same problem differently. And a problem can be solved effectively many different ways. I believe that as soon as you start seeing a right answer or solution you've closed your mind to truth.


I think it's my communication skill that stands in the way of sharing experiences this way.


This is where I get tripped up here: when better is about effectiveness, efficiency, etc - and there are objective measures for it, both parties should (I know, I know, neurotic language again) be striving for that goal. To me it's the belief that either of us possesses exclusive rights to the good ideas that's wrong, not debating and trying to find a solution, right? This is where I'm coming from in conversations with my W, yet she reacts to this as if I'm always trying to be right. I'm not trying to be right, I'm trying to do my best. I am always open to a better idea - not closed to them. Somehow it's coming across as not accepting her, and it's negatively effecting our connection.


I can also feel connected in disagreement though. Very often if I'm working on a project at work and I'm in complete disagreement about an approach to a problem, I feel connected to my coworker because we both care about the project, and we both have good ideas. We can discuss them and see the other person's point of view without feeling attacked and we can sometimes merge the two ideas, or pick the better one. Most often I come away from these conversations feeling connected and feeling good about myself even when my idea was not used. It's in my marriage that this doesn't seem to work. I think we're imbalanced in this area. I don't really want to say it, but I think my W doesn't have enough confidence or faith in herself to debate ideas with me. She feels judged when the idea is being judged. She's judging me rather than the idea. If I reject her idea I reject her. If I reject her, she rejects me to protect herself. So my functional belief in this relationship is that if I don't agree with her ideas/methods I will be rejected.


I believe that ideas are distinct from us. I don't think that we own ideas, and I wonder whether we truly create them. I think that inherent in every problem there is a multitude of solutions. And I think the deterent to recognizing these solutions is our ego, our need to personalize things, to take credit for the solution, to give ourselves value. Taking the person out of the solution allows the best solution to be found. The more invested one is in finding the best solution the less likely it is to be found. In this way being right is a somewhat arbitrary thing - there's no credit to be gained for being so. It's like trying to draw some personal value because you expect the sky to be a shade of blue tomorrow. Trying to increase personal worth through such artificial (materialistic I would say) means is surely a cause of much suffering.


Yes - you are quite right about trying to find some balance. But there's also the fixer drive in here too. I am looking for that opposing perspective in my W, but I don't entirely respect it. How do I accept as valid what health care professionals call problematic? When my W herself sees all of this as a problem?


Not because I judge her to be unhealthy, but because she judges herself to be so, I see her goal to be getting healthy. If that's the goal then there are certain steps to be taken to get there. The problem with its built in solutions. I'm claiming to be able to see the solution steps to her problem, which I can't do. I'm projecting my own problem and the solutions I find for that I'm assuming will work for her as well. I know the word should implies right and wrong. I guess I need to substitute another word because I'm not claiming that I know the truth any more than the next guy.


Yes, that's my belief. I'm still not really sure why I do it. I think it's a way of giving myself value. If I'm important enough to hate it's almost as good as being important enough to love. Totally false because no person has more or less worth than another. But I'm not sure I'm really getting this right, or doing this justice.

I have to run now. Thanks for taking the time to share your ideas and time. I'll check in tomorrow and hopefully finish this!

Two things...

I believe 90% of marital conflict isn't to be solved, but understood.

No ideas...solutions...

There are a lot less "problems" than what you are seeing right now.

Maybe because at work, we are problem-solvers...we come home, we see problems instead of knowing we're being shared with.

And the second thing...Fixing people is abusive. Doesn't make us saints, good folks or lovable...just tells others that they are broken. And they're not.

No rush to response...takes what it takes, including time, and I'm here.

LA

I agree with you here.


This may be so, but I also take a less emotionally charged view of the concept of problems. To me they don't really imply that something is not working, they are not a threat. The real problems are in the way we deal with the problems.


I gathered that you believe this. I know I don't have the power to do so, I can't even fix myself! I acknowledge that I have the urge to fix, but I don't act on it (or rather I should - if I want to more accurately convey what I do - say I resist acting on it). I don't look at my W as broken, unless she focuses on something, and then I'll lend a hand. In fact, one of the major things my W holds against me is that I haven't done more to fix her. She thinks I've been too detached regarding her depression. I didn't push her to do more out of the house, etc. I respected her choices as she made them. She now holds this against me, telling me that I should have recognized why she was choosing the way she was, etc, and that it shows that I didn't really care about her. I believe that I did, and that I allowed her to make choices for herself without imposing my will or opinion on her. When it was a family issue, however, I made my opinion known.

I'm a little unclear about your point here. I believe that we each impact the dynamic in a conversation. If there is something destructive or unhealthy that comes out of interacting in a certain way I can impact this even if I'm not the one who ultimately does the hurting. I don't control the conversation, but I can nudge it in different directions, change up the patterns and routines and avoid downward spirals. I think your method of seeking to understand does just this. It takes you out of a very personal perspective and allows you to truly hear.


Yes. This happens too often for my tastes. Sometimes I don't know what to say. It takes time for me to process what's going on. Sometimes I just don't want any part in what's going on. Often my W starts asking me yes or no questions that I feel lock me into an answer that's not mine regardless of whether I pick yes or no. I think she's trying to figure out which of her judgements I fit into rather than trying to understand me. Sometimes I balk at this. I don't really think that I'm being passive aggressive (although I wonder sometimes when I read all the stuff out there - I sometimes get really down when I read some of that stuff thinking I fit into all of these negative relationship molds and that I'm never going to be able to change who I am to get out of them. I'm never going to be able to be in a successful relationship. Totally neurotic thinking, and I stop it in it's tracks when I can. I refute it, but it's still present every now and again) but I do consider it a possibility.


No, I don't see myself as the cause of her stuff. Her stuff is her stuff. Her reason for choosing me as her mate is her stuff, I just happen to fit the bill. Her reason for choosing to reject me and run away is her stuff, my characteristics have just played a peripheral role in all of this. I haven't made her feel anything or pushed her away. It's the combination of her choices and thinking and her opinions of my actions that have led her to do and experience what she has. My situation is the same.


I went through a period where everything I thought about my W and the situation I flipped over. I eventually realized that it was the judgment that was the problem, not how I was doing it. I drove myself nuts trying to find ways that my thoughts about my W were really about me. There was a lot of learning in that though.


I think you're right here. I have made great strides in being aware of my emotions when I normally would have stuffed them. I have really felt better and had a better outlook because of it. I have been able to feel more connected even though I'm verbalizing negative emotions that I previously believed would negatively impact my relationships. In fact I feel liberated by this.


Thanks. This means a lot to me.


I like this, but I wonder if I can achieve it. I believe that I choose to be in the marraige, but without her committment I can not truly be in it the way I want to. This totally sounds wrong to me, but let me see if I can explain better. I believe a marriage works on many different levels. There are many different agreements within a marriage that impact the emotive states of the partners. Financial; social, inner child, spiritual, sexual, intellectual connections; educational; home; etc, etc. Being in the situation I'm in right now, I'm doing well at some, but I can't get around the contingent nature of others. My W will not take ownership of parts of the relationship, and then she'll turn around and point to me as the bad guy because I'm not giving her what I should. This is rediculous to me, because as you said previously about something somewhat different, ownership can not be given. So if she's not owning her part, for example - finances - I can't give it to her. I am a big believer in equality, and I don't think me hoarding the money and determining what should be done with it is my place. However, being that our situation is what it is, I have opened my own bank account and have been contributing a set amount that we agreed upon with witnesses to the pot. If my W were to be committed to the M, I think things would be different (although I can really see the benefit to having things seperate even in a good committed marriage). I'm not sure if I'm really doing justice to my thought with this example, but the point I'm trying to make is that I can choose to be in certain parts of marriage unilaterally, but if I were to choose to be in other parts of it without committment, I would be stupid. I know risk is essential, but. . .


As soon as I read the first couple of words here it dawned on me that you can't share productively (not true because it's too absolute). If you do it's manipulation, you're giving just to get, not to share.


Yeah, pain and fear. I am fearful about the marriage ending, so I have to make sure I act "good." Well, WW isn't acting good, so there's the dichotomy. I just need to be myself, not judge and repress my "badness" or idolize and force my "goodness" on others. I have been getting better at this. However, it's difficult to just be me when I'm always being told things like "you're so wierd" or "you say the strangest things". I know that this may be true, and someone can choose to either veiw these characteristics as endearing or revolting. It's these very personal qualities that initially attract us to people that eventually repel us. But there I go judging her judging. I don't know how to respond to stuff like that. I can't make her appreciate these things about me - even if I sometimes appreciate getting a rise out of her for being strange.


Ok, good point. It's all the human constructs that have been built up on top of our pure essence that have marred us, made us imperfect and dysfunctional. No amount of additional construction can remedy this. We can only hope to clear the clutter and get a better view of the prefect beauty beneath.


Sometimes, but often not. I am in the process of finding a therapist with a goal of seeing if there are drugs that can give me better access to my whole brain. I have very few memories of my childhood. My history melts away as I grow older. Yet I have an intuitive memory of so much.


Quite possible.


So, if I understand you correctly, you're asserting that because I am attempting to deceive myself, I bury the feelings that alert me to this, the alarms that warn me, and the memory is locked away with this as well?


Yes. But I also know that my expectations are meaningless. The expectation that I think got me in trouble here is that I felt that she didn't see the intention for what it was. "It's the thought that counts" in our culture, right? So why is it that she's choosing to find fault with my choice rather than to appreciate being thought about.


Yup, I did that. I felt judged and judged her. I would rather have stated my feelings about being judged, about being hurt.


You are right. I see this clearly. So how do I judge when I'm judging, and somehow not do it entirely? I feel that I have challenged the belief that life should be fair. I know better than to expect anything to be fair.


Thanks again. This sense that it's already within me rings true. I think it's the sense that personal worth can be given or taken away that is my biggest obstacle here. I often try and bolster my W's self esteem by giving her pep talks, or complimenting her, etc. I want her to feel better about herself. I get defensive when I feel attacked because I believe somewhere that my worth is at stake. Worth is not something that can change, it's not something that can be taken away or given. But judgment is an attempt to falsely change one's own worth.

Saturday was our 5 year anniversary. It was somewhat stressful for me to figure out what to do, and I didn't do as well with it as I had hoped. On Friday night W was working the evening shift. I had bought some leftover Valentine's day candy (Dove chocolate roses and a heart shaped box of chocolates) and a thing of peanut butter cups. I put the peanut butter cups all over the house, hidden in places where I new she'd find them (in her robe pocket, on her dresser, on the toilet paper roll in the bathroom, etc., and I put the rose next to her bed. I was going to have a glass of wine there next to the rose, but she got home early. I put the box of chocolates under her pillow. I thought it would be fun to keep finding the pb cups all over the place, expecially since it's her favorite. She did enjoy it, but was a little put off because she ate all of them! I had asked about going to dinner on the evening of, and she was ok with that as long as our son came with us. She felt uncomfortable otherwise.

Well, the day of I brought her breakfast in bed. Once she got up she started in on me. She was angry that there were dishes in the sink, etc. I let it slide off of me and later tried to address the rest of the day. She asked me if I was going to my parents house (I had mentioned earlier that I thought it might be a nice idea to go there together and look at the pictures my father took while he was overseas and then leave our S with my parents and go out to eat together - this was before she commented on wanting our son to come with us) and I wasn't able to really commit to an answer. I told her that I might if she was interested in going, but that having dinner together was my top priority for the day. She told me that she had to do some work and study. I went out for a bike ride.

She told me when I came back that she had plans. She went over to her mother's house to watch movies. I was a little hurt by this, because I thought we had plans to do something, even though details hadn't been worked out. I told her I was frustrated because I had expected something different. She told me she thought I was going to my parent's. I asked her if she wanted to go out and she said she didn't really feel like it. I asked if we could have a drink together later, and she agreed, but said that she didn't really feel that there was anything to celebrate.

Later in the evening she explained that she felt really pressured to do something. She thought that we had a nice meal on Friday - we were getting along, etc. I told her that I was being sensitive to putting pressure on her, but I couldn't get a straight answer out of her. I didn't want to let it go without putting effort into doing something.

I was a little sad about the whole thing. We were supposed to get new rings for each other on this date, to renew our commitment, to see how far we've come. So much for that. I sat upstairs in my room thinking about it, we really have come a long way from where we were, but this affair has driven us apart. It's forced an issue between us when we could (should) have been growing together. We could celebrate a sense of accomplishment together. Our lives have improved, but our relationship is nowhere to be found. I'm tiring of this all.

I'm reading a book called "Why Can't You Read My Mind". It's about the 9 toxic thoughts that damage and destroy a relationship. It goes along well with a lot of what we've talked about here, about how your perception really changes the relationship. Learning to see reality rather than your own judgments and assumptions about that reality change things dramatically. It was good to read, good to understand, but it was frustrating at the same time. I want to call my WW out on everything in there. She does all 9 things, so of course the relationship is horrible for her. Her thinking is making it so, and I have no power to stop that. I think this is THE most frustrating thing about this whole process. I can impact the dynamics of the relationship, but I have no power over how she sees it.