And I feel constantly indebted to you because I have not been able to dedicate the time to responding that I think your posts warrant. I feel somewhat dizzy too when I put this kind of pressure on myself!


Vitamin C - 3500 miligrams a day for the first day or two usually prevents it from getting bad.


Yeah, I realize this. I divert my attention from what's really important to the object or issue. No wonder she feels that her feelings don't matter to me, that I don't care about her feelings. Now when I try and understand what she's communicating as feelings she tells me that's not what she's telling me, that I gave up my right to know how she feels because I neglected her feelings for 6 years!

Ouch!


I don't think I really thanked her last night. I usually do and I have felt that I've been putting myself too far out there. For example, I wrote WW an email this afternoon:
She responded that the note sounded fake, put on. It wasn't, but I feel the need to be sensitive because I overstep the bounds of what's appropriate too often. I disrespect WW's wishes by calling her "babe" every now and again despite her request that I don't, etc. This is such grey area to me, but I think my W is right, I bend the way I see things so that I can do what I want to do. I want to feel like we're married and everything is sort of ok, so I revert to things like this. No harm no foul, right? Or am I really disrespecting her?


Agreed, anger is difficult for me.


Yes, signals. I find it interesting that you bring up frustration here, because I have always felt that frustration is somewhat a fact of life. Comes with doing something in reality. Things go other than planned, frustration sometimes builds. Pain is again something that is somewhat inevitable - yet I do think I shied away from this somewhat. Fear? Yeah, I think I feared fear and avoided it to some degree. Sorrow? I don't know. Conflict itself isn't something I shy away from either - we can have conflicting opinions and I don't feel any need to run away. However, when anger sets in things change somewhat. We can discuss issues all day long, as long as it's the issues we discuss.


I think it's annoyance, when something is a pain, it's more difficult than anticipated. I feel impatient or I don't have clarity. No, I don't get it as a result of rejection - I tend to feel frustrated when I'm doing something, a project, and something that I didn't anticipate crops up. For example, when I changed the fuel pump I felt frustrated because the lines were difficult to remove. I didn't count on that being a part of the project. In describing this I see that it comes down to a control thing, doesn't it? When something happens other than how I expect it to I feel frustrated because expectations are an attempt to control the future. I'm really frustrated with my lack of control.


Interesting, but out of context with what I was saying. I wasn't critical of the effort, I was critical of the fact that WW was choosing to see that fights happen because of topics rather than because of choices and actions.


And I think my WW sees things similarly. I think she thinks that I make her feel like she's not important enough to confront, that her feelings don't matter, that she doesn't matter, because my actions are not where she expects them to be. Maybe they should be different, closer to the middle.


No, she doesn't do the silent treatment much - however she does withdraw, as she did tonight - just threw down her napkin and ran away downstairs when she got an answer from me she didn't want.


I mutter under my breath sometimes, talk to myself. I get clumsy sometimes. Nothing in any way dramatic.


I agree, but I'm saying that I can understand why she expects a fight because of what she believes beneath it.


Not to my frustration, to her frustration. When she gets frustrated she escalates it - and this sounds like judgment after judgment, so I'm not going to continue on this topic.


No, I can't MAKE her feel anything, but together we can create great feelings. I can do the things she expects, she craves, because I'll be in the know, and she will want me to do them and be motivated to feel good because of it. We'll have a common goal and a plan to get it done, so to speak.


She does, even if she tries to hide it from herself and from me. She does. And this is the hardest thing for me. It is the one thing I make contingent on her, and though I want to trust because it's what I want to do, there is a certain degree to which trust must be earned in my book.


Yes she does, and she tells me this all the time.


Faith I have, otherwise I wouldn't be where I am now.

Whenever I try this, to share my experience and relate with her in this sort of situation she tells me that I'm not listening to her. I'm more interested in my feelings than in hers. She tells me this often, that I'm only interested in myself. If I do something for her she sees me doing it for myself, and she has all sorts of evidence to back this up. If you believe something you can always find facts to back it up.


I get your point here, but if I perceive this, and it's what she's actually saying, focusing elsewhere seems like denial, invalidating her. She asks me all too often "why can't you just admit I'm right about something" - for example I told her I understood why she thought something she did, she said this and I responded that I don't believe there is a right and a wrong, rather two people with their own valid opinion. I think she felt like I was saying this because she thinks I'm so fixated on being right that I can't admit that she is right about anything. Today she said something about me not being able to admit I had done something wrong because I can never be wrong. Would it be beneficial for me to always tell her she's right? Would it meet her needs? It feels like a lie to me, but I could certainly look at everything through this filter, seeing all the right she does. She would still notice where I didn't act on her rightness and adopt her methods, etc., but I wonder whether it would help.


Ok, so I dispute irrational beliefs in my mind. I can do this, I can live like this. However, when she says it then I experience it. So I dispute it in my mind and write it off. Gone. However I have not acknowledged her - and if I acknowledge her belief and don't agree with it I might as well not acknowledge it. Bad belief to hold. Gotta work on that. Acknowledgement above all else.


I agree with your perception. This is something I have seen since this all started. Yet me knowing this doesn't do either of us any good unless she looks at herself and sees this and wants to do something about it herself. She blames me for making her feel this way. I want to eliminate whatever contribution I'm making to this, but it's elusive and probably mixed up in my own issues.


Yes to all of the above.


Yes and no.


Oh yes, I label myself. But the tricky thing is where my opinion crosses societies. If a certain set of actions warrant a label and I perform those actions whether I consciously do it or not I am labeling myself.


Yes, I'm pitying myself, getting into the entitled, victim role. Not where I want to be.


Sorry about that. It's when I start to focus on all that's missing from my life (of which there really isn't anything) I get angry with myself and blame myself for getting me where I am now. It's not relevant, it's not helpful, it's not healthy. I know it's keeping things in fantasy - if only I could change what I did or how I acted, etc, I wouldn't be experiencing what I am.


Do I? I discount her side? This is a real question that I haven't been able to get an answer from her on: how do I not discount her side? In my perception unless I do what she thinks I should do I am discounting her side.


I would really rather be married.


My WW is like this too - maybe not orgasmic, but she is desperately craving being told she's right.


But if it's external it can be taken away, it's not real. It's always lacking. Isn't it?


I told her this very thing when this all started. She took it as me blaming her for her own misery. I don't blame her for seeing it this way. I asked her to make me a promise then, that she would be committed to her own happiness whether she stayed or left. Look where we are now.


You know what my real concern is, it's that she wants to change, but she hasn't turned her desire to change inward. I'm afraid that she won't look inside at what she can change before destroying the lives of others. I judge her for this. I think it's wrong to do this. I understand why, but I judge her. I guess it comes from being very aware of making the opposite choice myself. My judgment of her is supporting my decision.


No, I don't see you blaming, I see you pointing out places where I can utilize my power, empowering me. I'm not giving well. My methods have been false, superficial. I need to really change how I give.

Ok, I need some help here. Today at lunch I spoke with WW about the plans for the evening. She had mentioned to me on Tuesday/Wednesday that her mother was having a party on Friday and that she was planning to attend. Great. Good to know. Sounds like fun. During this afternoon's discussion it became clear that W expected me to pickup our son from MIL's house. Not a problem, she's about a mile away from us. I'll swing by after work. I told W that I was riding my bike back to work so she should expect me around 6 pm. She got upset and told me that was too late. I told her that I would leave work about 30 minutes early to accomodate her. She didn't think this was good enough. She told me she wanted me to drive AND leave early.

One of the main reasons I was choosing to ride was because W was going out and I wouldn't get the chance to go to the gym tonight. I also only rode once this week, and my goal was 3 times a week. So anyway, W started to talk about how I don't care about her needs. Her needs don't matter. I only am concerned with what I want to do. I told her that I was interested in compromise, and that's what I was doing by leaving work early. I also told her that I was not prepared to do anything more because I didn't get any advance notice that she wanted me to help her out in this way. She got upset and started telling me why I should have known she needed my help: "Every other times I went to a party at my mom's I have needed you to come pick him up early, right?" Not sure this is true, I don't remember. "You should have known I needed you to because every other time I did." "WHy don't you use your brain and figure stuff like this out."

The way I see it, she didn't ask for what she wanted. She faults me for not being attentive to her needs. Sounds like one of the main issues in our relationship. So she went on and on talking about how her needs don't matter, how she doesn't matter. I told her I had to go, then rode my bike back to work. As I walked upstairs she was shouting about how much of an [censored] I am and how she can't believe she married me. A year ago I would not have rode my bike. I would have done whatever I could to accomodate her. Now that I'm not she's upset. I thought I was quite respectful about this conversation. Is there a better way of going about negotiating stuff like this?

MT,

A few questions...

Did you end up purchasing your own copy of "Boundaries in Marriage" by Cloud and Townsend...or do you have access to finish it?

Is your wife still in contact with OM, which you verify by emails, phone records?

LA

LA,

No, I haven't finished that book. I will grab it next time I go to the library.

I'm really not sure about whether contact continues. She is still resentful of my presence because of the A. Recently she said I couldn't give her anything that she wanted and then implied that the only thing I could do is I could let her go see OM.

She refuses to tell me anything about contact, and I have not seen any evidence either way. I'm still somewhat suspicious. Just in case you didn't catch this, she didn't end the affair to work on the marriage, she put it on hold so she could satisfy me, so that we could end things in a civil way.

She hasn't agreed to no contact, she's simply holding out to wait for me to agree to split.

Your MC does not address this in your sessions? Or did you guys stop going after three sessions?

I didn't see where you exposed her A to everyone...is your cousin married? GF? Did you expose to her side of the family as well as your own? Exposure is a vital part of Plan A...and I missed asking these basic questions.

Appreciate you filling me in before I share what I see, 'k?

LA

We have addressed this in MC to some extent. B/c WW wants out of the relationship it's not high on the counselor's agenda. The MC seems more interested in getting us out of such polarized positions and has talked about compromise by way of working through taking the M apart. Since then we have had to cancel an appt because of WW's job schedule and I haven't been all that motivated to reschedule. It's been about 4 weeks now.

Exposure. I exposed to my aunt and uncle and my cousin's then GF in February '06. WW told her mother about it, but I exposed to her father and step-mother. I told my parents and my brothers.

The only person who may still be in the dark about this is her brother.

MT,

Your MC seems more interested...or has stated that an AP isn't a consideration...like triage, trying to stop the bleeding before healing the patient?

I'm so sorry I didn't go back and catch this earlier.

See...a WS has a head wound...it's theirs...the fog is real...all contact continues the A and the fog...which is entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect.

My WH was in the same position when he went to our first appt...he didn't know if he wanted the M, his OW or to be alone...and he took nearly three months to choose...

Our MC laid it out..."You will have no shot at all of choosing what will most make you happy if you don't get rid of the OW's influence immediately. You can't even get to what you really want until you rid your life of her influence."

See...undue influence...which is why you're continuing to hear abuse from entitlement, resentment and lack of respect.

Not OM doing it...the fog doing it.

As long as WS keeps having contact (even 3000 miles away) the fantasy state continues...like having OM hit her repeatedly in the same place with the same hammer...MC has to have WS stop the hammer by ending all contact for six months...and if she will go through withdrawal to clear her head...then she can decide if you still need to be satisfied with her to end the marriage or to recover.

Now...I don't think your MC will do that...not as directly, unquestioningly as our MC did...we wouldn't have thought of ditching out, no matter what, on a single appt...our MC was great...still is my DH's IC...

My WH ended it with OW after our second session...on the drive back to work. That fast.

Took a long time for you guys to even get to MC, didn't it? End of last year?

So you've essentially been in a twisted agreement...

She agreed to stay until you were okay with her leaving?

And the A has continued...why do you say it's been a year since her A? You don't believe that continued contact isn't continuing an A?

Or does it just hurt too darn much...that you're unwilling to know? To tape her conversations, get call records?

I'm pretty stunned, MT, and very deeply sorry that I took up your time...

My advice...to give up everything for your marriage...including the apartment...to arrange to leave your WW, take your son, not pay her anything at all...bring home boxes tonight and start packing up your stuff...

When she gets home...tell her quietly, sincerely, you love her, want a whole intact family for yourself and your son, and you're no longer willing allow a third party in your marriage. That you respect her choice to have and maintain an affair, but that you know until there is a commitment to NC and to the marriage, you choose to remove yourself and your son.

This isn't about you getting satisfied to have an amicable divorce...your divorce is based on infidelity. I pray you never become satisfied with infidelity.

I know you can do this calmly...respectfully...write your Plan B letter this evening and hand it to her...call someone to be your intermediary...and go dark...to protect your love and sanity.

A whole year of contact post dday.

I cannot possibly imagine, MT.

Understand that no apartment, no conceivable material possession is more important to your son than an intact, loving family. Can't compare. Kids would rather live in cardboard boxes with their parents, than anywhere else without them.

I promise.

Do all those people know the affair continued?

How can you have not been verifying yourself, through your own methods? Again...I can't conceive of that...keyloggers, taping phone conversations...voice-activated recorders...so you can know The Truth...and here I've been asking you to discern your truth from hers.

I'm so sorry.

Plan B is to save your marriage. It isn't an ending...it is where you really do the hardest thing...

I strongly advise this. You can move with your son to your mother's house...that's in the area, isn't it?

And given her confrontational history...keep your promise. If she yells, screams, hits you...call 911 immediately.

Doesn't mean you're a wuss...means you're a real man...an honest man of integrity and ownership.

If she would rather leave and stay at your mother's...agree to it...and give your mother the PBL, and instructions for visitation...where you won't be present at pick up or drop off...if she's there...

Go dark, please. Until there is no contact, there can't be truth...only fog...I know. I remember.

And don't buy into the social disorder...if she can go out with her friend to public places...her cheerleading or OM, for pete's sake...there's no social anxiety disorder regarding going to the store...you know this. I know you do.

Get out of her way so she can really get treatment for what ails her...

She's worth it.

So are you.

LA

LA,

I'm a bit confused here by what you understood.


What's AP?


We went to a counselor fairly early on that my W ended up balking on. She told WW that she had to give up the A in order to honestly figure out whether leaving the M was what she wanted. She chose instead to continue the A and drop the counselor.


Essentially.


It's been a over a year since it started. As far as I'm concerned, whether they're in contact or not, it's still ongoing.


I don't want to disclose what I have been aware of because you never know who's on these boards, but I tell you that I have gotten more than enough information in the past. Eventually I decided that my awareness of it all was damaging to me, and I turned a blind eye. I documented contact sporatically after that. I still am monitoring things to some degree. I haven't seen any evidence of contact since the end of January.


I feel guilty here. I feel like you're sorry that you spent the time on me because had you a different idea you would have approached the situation differently. I think your insight has been invaluable to me, and I thank you for it.


I need to see a lawyer before I can move on this is any way. I don't know if can legally take my son anywhere.


Not for me it isn't. It is based on infidelity, something that I decided long ago was not reason enough for me to end this marriage.


Yes.


I have been to some extent. Details are not something I'm interested in anymore. That contact occurs is all that matters, and I've been aware of this as much as I can be.


No, my parents house is not an option for me. I will come up with a plan. Thanks LA.

I keep thinking there's another way, that just sticking it out will allow the fog to clear. But I have been moving in the plan B direction for some time. I think it will be really hard but good for me too.

How's it going, Muddle?

~ Marsh

It's going. We had another of those conversations over the weekend. WW kept expressing how she thinks I'm just not getting it, and how I'm making her hate me. Told me that she thinks I'm pretending to love her (pretending this to myself as well, so she doesn't blame me for beleiving it) based on the fact that she doesn't feel loved by me. She said that if I loved her I'd make her feel it. She expressed frustration/resentment that she doesn't think I've fought for the marriage at all, that the only changes in me have been for the negative. We briefly talked about perspective and how it drastically changes what you think other people are doing.

She keeps pointing things out that I do (or rather don't do). For instance I didn't notice that our son had made a mess of crumbs under his chair. She noticed and told me that if I really loved her I would have noticed it and cleaned it up before she saw it. But she sees my not noticing as P/A behavior, saying that I don't see things because I'm trying to hurt her in some way, unknowingly. I told her that I believe that had I noticed and cleaned up the mess I bet she would find something else to fault me for or to see me hurting her. She talked about how I see myself as the perfect victim, that I'm doing everything right, etc. I can't even begin to get into what she was saying. I turned it around and asked her if she understood anything about projection, because everything she accused me of was her own posturing. Constantly finding ways to see me victimizing her.

She had been feeling bad at the start of the conversation. She started the conversation so she would feel better. She decided that the only thing that would make her feel better was to hear from me that I would agree to divorce, that I would admit to seeing the very real need for it. I didn't. She got frustrated and angry. Too bad. I did my best to connect with her. I was receptive and understanding of her feelings. I was there for her. But I didn't give her what she wanted. I was surprised at just how detached I was. I wasn't trying to change her, I wasn't trying to do anything but be right there in the moment.

Yesterday was my parent's 30th anniversary (really 45 years together though!). I went down to cook dinner for them to celebrate. WW chose not to come, although she did spend some time thinking it over. In the end it was to avoid the frustration and inevitable (in her mind) reaction she has to frustration that made the decision for her. I missed her, and I think my parents did too. My mother has told me couple of times recently that she feels my WW doesn't care about her anymore, and seems to be disconnecting from everyone in the family. She said that when she has seen divorce happen their is a desire to remain a member of the family.

So no real progress on my plan b, but I have some lawyers' information and will be meeting with one soon to get this ball rolling. Until then I have decided not to approach my WW at all. She thinks I haven't done a good job of being loving towards her or trying to win her back (she told me that I should have been bursting with my desire to do for her and prove my love). I don't have to prove my love, she knows how I feel. If I don't do for her what she expects she yells and screams about how I'm hurting her and then holds another grudge. So I don't know how to stop doing for her without it being turned into some passive aggressive thing.

Frustrated, but in good spirits and positive about my life. Thanks for checking on me Marsh!

Good.

A legal separation would probably be your best bet.

Have you started your Plan B letter yet?

~ Marsh

MT,

"What's AP?"

Affair Partner.

Thank you for explaining about the first MC...what was your choice in dropping that one? (No condemnation...this is like a drug addict...and when someone in authority says, "You gotta get rid of the drug influence to make clear decisions" it doesn't go over well.)

Which is why Alanon was invaluable to me. Have you checked into it, btw?

"It's been a over a year since it started. As far as I'm concerned, whether they're in contact or not, it's still ongoing."

Thank you for clarifying...I missed that "it's been a year since her A began" and the began part was essential to me. I'm not that quick.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I hope you accept this was MY misunderstanding...doesn't invalidate anything I told you...it was a shock to me...to have missed the bus hitting you repeatedly and me seeing myself as telling you to remember you're separate from the bus.

It's part of sharing...I can feel the bus, too.

I felt mortified I didn't see you getting run over.

"I don't want to disclose what I have been aware of because you never know who's on these boards, but I tell you that I have gotten more than enough information in the past. Eventually I decided that my awareness of it all was damaging to me, and I turned a blind eye. I documented contact sporatically after that. I still am monitoring things to some degree. I haven't seen any evidence of contact since the end of January."

Good to know. I see this as still all about you, btw. Your boundaries. Your health. Your choice to live in and from truth. No condemnation here.

And if NC has been in place (albeit, without pledge or commitment), then she's in withdrawal now...yet I don't see the grieving...which may be me...what do you see?

See, withdrawal was really important to our recovery. It felt like a continuation of really hard hits to me...to hear my DH say, "If I don't think about her, I won't care about her if I do decide to end this marriage." He said it in a tormented voice, echoing of a child full of fear and longing. Felt to me like I'd torn a new muscle in my heart.

Came from him, about his choice, to go NC. You don't have that. That's where my DH got to his power of thought...realizing where he chose to dwell determined what he treasured. That listen and repeat was hard for me. I did it anyway, and today, I'm thrilled with myself. He wasn't talking about me...considering me...he was addressing his life-long method of fantasy...and it was his first step in letting it go...and it was authentic sharing.

And I heard.

Your WW may well be stating these realizations in her own way...that she can't feel loved...feels condemned, ignored, powerless...useless, in actuality. That shift from believing we earn love to being out of control of making others love us...that we choose...or choose not to...a precipice. Very scary. Reactive. Facing free fall.

If there really has been no contact for two months, then it would be your point to stand in understanding...listen and repeat with choice would be crucial..."I'm hearing you say that in order to feel loved, you need to see it, touch and taste love through my hypervigilance to your symbols, is that correct?"

If she isn't in withdrawal...if she's in justifications from contact...or dwelling in fantasy (that constant comparison to reality (YOU), then this may be projection.

Which is why NC letters...transparency...gets us to where we can listen and hear...not judge and react. And you don't have that. Have you asked for it? Have you said, "I won't be okay with divorcing you, destroying our family. I'm good with not being okay with that. I know we can get to a thriving place where we both know we're loved, even when we don't feel it at times...full of trust, as partners."

You know you can't make her feel loved...I think that was what you meant when you said that even if you saw and cleaned up the crumbs, it would be something else. You can do your half, though...share and speak. Acknowledge her symbols...not as manipulation, bad or wrong. Understand she has symbols and she's sharing them.

Discover and explore those symbols.

Which is respect.

And know your own.

I remember being caught up in hearing I was wrong...it's why hearing I was right was virtually orgasmic...my DH could say, "You're wrong to feel that this action will make you feel loved." And I heard, "You are wrong. You're defective." Having a wrong thought, belief, perception FELT like being a wrong human being.

Was up to me to know and understand the difference. I had to share with my DH that this is what I was hearing...not what he was saying.

Do you know the difference, MT? Can you share it with her? Not to educate her on what she should think or believe...to inform her what you do...what you've discovered. Why you feel attacked, defensive...annihilated when you hear her telling you're wrong?

Like her saying you're mistaken...and you hearing you're a mistake?

And could this be what she's been asking...a possibility...of coming to an understanding...which may be symbolized by acceptance of dissolution...when she really wants to dissolve these life-long perceptions and perspectives? I believe the greatest part of choosing to recover from infidelity is that the BS says, essentially, "We can grow through this...I can grow through this to get to all my stuff...which is why I loved you in the first place. Because with you, I can grow through my own stuff. I want to be with you while you grow through yours."

Our real vows underneath the other ones...which were the roadmap...is that we have a lot of hurts stored inside us, long before we ever met, we believe we can heal through our commitment to each other. And that's the huge part of betrayal in infidelity...like a statement that says, "I won't heal with you; you're not the one." And these amazing BS's who still say, "Yes. I will heal with you, anyway" is where thriving begins.

"I feel guilty here. I feel like you're sorry that you spent the time on me because had you a different idea you would have approached the situation differently. I think your insight has been invaluable to me, and I thank you for it."

Guilt is our signal when we don't see ourselves living up to others' expectations. Shame is what we feel when we aren't living up to our own.

This is great sharing...I would have approached differently...active affair versus withdrawal and early recovery. When I post, I risk...I know I'm only half...the offering...and others take what they want and leave the rest. I still feel responsible in what I share, advise, because of how vulnerable and torn up posters feel...and often, I over-reach. I think you understand my bus analogy...my horror at not seeing you being run over.

And I don't want anyone to be under a bus. The affair is the bus, not your WW. She may be driving it.

"Not for me it isn't. It is based on infidelity, something that I decided long ago was not reason enough for me to end this marriage."

Plan A is to end the active affair...which includes contact. You really don't have that power...yours is to expose, share truth...and I know you've exposed and it's current. Do you share truth...with yourself and your WW?

Which refers back to your complicity in this unspoken agreement that you're working toward getting to where you're okay with her divorcing you. In your post, I heard the conversation to be, "Are you there yet? Ready to divorce me yet?" which is fantasy talk. You don't do divorce. She can't make you. She can choose to divorce you at any time.

Living in truth is knowing where you stand and why you choose to stand there...and sharing it. From love of self and your marriage. There's no shame or subterfuge in it. I think you're longing for that light to stand in, MT.

There's no shame in it.

Comes from our belief we can be full partners, filled up with love and spilling over...where we had no concept of it before...we choose to recover. Our half. Fully personally recovery, half of the marital recovery. And from this belief, we listen and repeat with choice...acknowledge, not refute...because we wholly know our own choices, what beliefs they come from...no need to refute others' stuff.

You are whole, MT. When you act from your beliefs, not your feelings, you will be able to do what seems impossibly hard, searing. Because that grows you.

If there is no contact now...and hasn't been for two months...then you're really in that limbo land...where my advice to respect, act from it and live in truth is really viable. Up to you to live in that truth, even in MC, and say, "I believe WW has finally ended her affair. I want to share my goal is different from hers at this time. I've withheld and not said my goal clearly. I want to recover our marriage. I want to learn the tools I need to do this. I respect my WW may have a different goal. I want to be clear, and I'm asking for transparency and a commitment to no contact with AP right now."

Plan B is about saving your marriage...preparing, acquiring knowledge of legalities and who your intermediary can be...the logistics, is preparing to SAVE your marriage...not to lose it. Sure can feel like losing it.

It's utter respect for your partner's choices...and your own.

What I don't see is where you added to yours with turning a blind eye...I see that as adding to your own self-betrayal...and reinforcing that her A was about you...'cuz you hurt from it. That's why we take stuff as if it's about us...we're the ones in pain. Understandable. Human. Remains unreal. Like making someone feel loved...we don't have that power...and the flip side is making them feel unloved...abandoned and betrayed. We feel it. It's real. When we disrespect and make their choices about us, when they are in reality, about them.

Part of freedom, MT...truth has it. Live in it, fearful as it may be, and learn your own choices first...so you can see where hers are hers. Not you doing.

You're hearing you make, you make, you don't make.

Put that hopper on top of your head, with a firm hand. Do not let those come into your head at all, until you know, "I cannot make another human feel loved. I choose to love. That's my half. I can thrive from my half."

Listen and repeat is an act of love...of respect...to yourself and others. Know this, as you do it...to refute is to refute what you know...causes pain inside...and I think you've had enough for now, don't you?

"I hear you feel bad and believe you will feel better, permanently, when I agree to divorce you, is that correct?"

"I do not choose to divorce you. I fully respect your choice to divorce me. I know I have no control over your choices. I'm hearing this is a real struggle for you, a painful one. I hear you are tired of not feeling loved, cherished, appreciated or acknowledged. I know I have chosen to take your feelings as my responsibility in the past, to be your cure, your cause and control. I am heartfully sorry, very remorseful, I believed I had the power to make you feel, think, believe or perceive anything. I know that's yours. I what is really in my power is my choice to love you...and I choose to. I choose to cherish, appreciate and acknowledge you now...my half. I know that you're choosing to be here with me, in this marriage. Right now. I appreciate your choice very much. Thank you."

Not you changing anything about her...sharing your stuff, in highest honesty. Reminding yourself, as her words come at you as if she's not there....SHE'S THERE.

Both hands on reality.

You're choosing to be there, as well. Your job to self is to be present and aware. I perceive you're really getting that. When we turn blind eyes, we do them inward and outward...keeps us from speaking our truth...makes it selective, which bears self-deceit. Free yourself. This isn't arguing...it's sharing.

Believe you are worth knowing...because you are.

And act from it.

LA

I guess I had a somewhat defeatest attitude about MC the 1st time around. I "knew" it would be a waste of money as long as the affair was ongoing. I was not at all surprised that my WW found reasons to stop going. After my WW stopped going I continued with the counselor alone for several sessions. I decided to stop going myself because the therapist did not help me the way I asked her too. She kept focusing on my W and her thinking (trying to figure out where she was on the idea of our marriage) despite the fact that I specifically told her several times that I had several personal goals I wanted her help with meeting.


I have not checked into it. I will - I think it has good application here.


I'm sorry you felt this way. It's sometimes hard to see the bus running me over these days myself. . .


I certainly saw some when NC happened. She was depressed and crying all the time. Then she got angry with me, blaming me for her pain. Things changed though. I had a hunch something was going on. She started in again about wanting divorce in the same way she used to while in contact. This morning I saw the calling card # on the redial. I have no idea when she called it, but I'm pretty sure it's recent. So much for that. A couple of times she asked me to let her know when I was coming home. I get suspicious when she asks me to do this. I assume she's in contact with him at these times. I usually play down my feelings, or tell myself it's futile to worry about it because there's really nothing I can do about it if it is going on. Now I believe that contact continues, and surprisingly I have no emotional reaction to this.

I sat at dinner last night thinking that I should look for ways to look at my WW in a negative light, to not want to be with her, just to balance things out. I thought that maybe if I didn't want her so much she might respond by being less repelled by me, because of the feedback loop that still exists between us. I couldn't. I still love and am attracted to this woman. I can't hate her. I can't see her as the enemy, despite everything that's happened between us. I don't know if I'm deluding myself or what. It felt like self betrayal to even try.


This is exactly the realization that I wish for my WW. Even if she were to tell me "I am making the decision to end this marriage" would be a huge step in this direction. No more pointing fingers. I hope my WW makes the choice to go NC on her own, regardless of her feelings about the M. My take on this whole thing is that the marriage has been infused with personal meaning for her, that she's playing out a fantasy of escaping parts of herself, issues with herself, by manifesting them in the relationship, as a part of it, and disposing it, thereby ridding herself of it all. She insists it's about me though. Even on Saturday she said this very thing "It IS about you". I haven't been pushing her about this stuff, I haven't been talking to her about it because the last thing she wants to hear is that she's to blame. It was one of the first things that I told her when she started talking about how she was starting to view the marriage, that she was unhappy with her life and if she could change this the relationship would be that much better.


I believe she is. I'm not sure she's shifting her beliefs though.


This is a great way of putting this understanding into words. I think it's so concisely desciptive of what she expects and why she continues to find fault with me.


Which is my take.


I have and I was told that she refuses to do this for two reasons. First, she won't agree to lifelong no contact because once we're divorced she wants him in her life. Second, she said that this NC was something they came to together for as long as she needed it to go on. It's not for me in any way. It's not for our marriage. It's because they think it's the responsible way to end the marriage at this point. And it happened when it did because I went crazy and in my controlling way disconnected the computer from the internet. So in comparison, he's the thoughtful one and I'm the controlling, jealous, hurt, mean, crazy one.


Not this way exactly. I have told her that I don't want a divorce and I don't want to destroy this family, and I will not take part in it. I have told her that I believe that we can make a great, loving marriage that's fulfilling and rewarding.

She told me she believes that I expect her to be in my bed one day, or the emotional equivalent of this sort of about face.


I did say that I can't make her feel anything, but it's not exactly what I meant about the crumbs. What I meant about that was that she's so focused on looking for negatives with me, she'll find something. It doesn't matter how much positive there is, she'll find the negative because that's what she's looking for. Her perspective, not reality. I can love, shower her with acts of love, but as long as her perspective is what it is she will be let down, hurt, find fault with me and my love. Is this truth? No, it's my judgment again, regardless of the amount of evidence behind it.

Now this is me taking her stuff personally. What you're asking me to do is to discover and understand what her symbols are and what they mean to her, right?


I know the difference. I have been sharing this. I have been telling her what I hear and she has responded a bit negatively. I still try to do this as often as I can, a part of listen and repeat.


Very seldom do I misinterpret things this way. Rather, I feel I am more often translating her telling me I'm a mistake into her saying that I'm mistaken!


I believe this is what it all comes down to. I don't think she's there now though.


I think this is so right on. I wonder if I'm really stunting my personal healing and growth though, just saying I want to do this and not actually doing it. I feel that I've grown.


I understand your feelings of responsibility. I have learned a lot about myself in relationship through conversing with you whether or not you knew where I was. I did, and I drew what I needed from your posts. It's my responsibility to find my way through this and nobody but me can make me get it or apply it.


I'm not sure what you mean by truth here.


I have made this point clear - I believe - to my WW. I am very clear on it myself, and in conversations with my parents and friends. I am certainly not ashamed of this at all.


I understand this. Something about it is scary to me. The complexity. Facing custody issues. Hurting our son, our families. Without it though WW may not have the space to fully understand that this is about her. She won't have me around to point fingers at, yet the issues will still be there. Yet something scares me about the idea of saving the marriage this way specifically. I can't put my finger on this. If I could go home and have my WW recommit, honestly and fully, I wouldn't hesitate. I guess I'm afraid that if I walk away, even with the intention of saving the marriage, I won't want to return. Sounds crazy to me.


To me this was accepting that this was not about me, and it was actually a choice to heal, not to dwell on what I couldn't control. It was a choice to stop hurting myself using her choices as the weapon. I didn't deny the existance of the affair. I simply chose to cultivate my life. I recognized that I was destroying my life because I believed she was destroying hers. I took my focus off of the affair, because to focus on a big problem made my whole life a big problem, her problem was MY life because I was making it so. And yes, her A is her problem with consequences that inflict pain on many people, but it's her problem. There are many wonderful gifts in my life, and to ignore them for the sake of personally indulging in frustration, sorrow, hurt, anger, madness, etc., was sinful. I felt all I could do was feel this way in response to what was happening. I recognized my powerlessness to stop it, and that my actions were responsible for my pain, even if my pain would not have existed without hers. Like I said, I knew it continued, and that's all I need to know.


And of course I judge this. Because this is the crux of it. This idea is such falacy, yet she acts from this belief.


I like the way you put this. Do you think sharing something like this is letter form would make sense? I can do much better in print than verbally.

Thank you.

Marsh,


Thanks for your perspective here.


Yes. Here's a draft. What do you think?

MT,

I think this is a great letter...

Couple of things...

You pick the intermediary...not offer a choice of two. You get their consent...best through email, btw...where she emails them and then your intermediary notifies you. I say this for documentation of requests, etc. Also, they are on your side...the don't pass on irrelevant info about her...they block out her tone, wording, inferences...they are very important. Choose wisely. Going dark takes more than you not letting in stuff...takes someone willing to mind the blinds for ya, too.

The way back is only a NC letter? No MC/IC? No MB home study course? I like the letter, don't get me wrong. And consider inserting that you guys will do the letter together...she won't be alone...you'll be with her every step of the way.

You do write really well.

I would reconsider "It certainly has not been easy to date" because this is a woman you're remembering how you fell in love, what you felt like, wanting to keep that marvelous Phase I memories true and real...she's punted hers for now...up to you to be the true memory keeper.

And would you consider inserting in the early part where you love her, the person, not her actions? Some kind of separateness to it...same with the end...where you believe in her...might help to really make that part sing...because you're addressing her essence with your love...not her actions. And in the middle, her way back is through her choices, her actions only. Her essence remains loved, in your heart...

And because I'm in control freak mode...how 'bout in the reason part for Plan B...in order to protect your love part...you need to do so while while she's under the influence of contact, undue influence, until she can have clarity again from time from no contact, because you do understand the pull of fantasy--you believe in that day coming and want to save up for it.

Oh, forget that. I'm just going on in my head and being interrupted.

Have you already separated your finances? Made up a visitation schedule (proposal), stuff division...the functional things you could attach? Spreadsheets. Yum.

I appreciate your response to my last post...yes, your judgment (and DJs) are kicking your own butt.

When I gave you a respectful listen and repeat...you went to judgment. HER PERCEPTION IS VALID...it's real. It's hers. Raging against it, calling it fallacy, tells yourself that you have beliefs of the same vein...that your stuff isn't valid...false. I promise you, judging her stuff hurts your own stuff.

I'm saying a lot of your pain is coming from not getting where listen and repeat is vital to your own self-respect...your own self-love...and as long as you permit yourself to be on the hear to judge routine...you'll continue to hurt, feel anger, rage, feel reactive...and you'll be reactive.

You want to know you did everything you could to save this marriage...that's what all BS can take with them, if they choose, into thriving futures...with or without their spouses. I know this has been a false safety net for you...so subtle, under your own radar...and I guess I'm unwilling to give this up until you get to your core permission to do this to others and to yourself.

What I was asking about sharing your truth...do you state, "I saw the calling card number you dialed today. Did you call OM today?"

This is highest honesty...acted, not reacted to...which makes your calm, your seeing her choices as hers, all the more potent and self-loyal...maritally loyal...and you then confirm and go on...loving, anyway.

I am perceiving mixed signals from you...no contact you could confirm since January, yet you have suspected her calling and talking to him for at least a week...that's not no contact since January. And this isn't me saying you're lying...you chose to not confirm, which isn't dwelling...verifying is an act of truth to self...and lets go you trying to wrangle the truth out of your spouse...so you stay living from truth...stating what you know...not as a threat...as much a weather report..."I know you had contact yesterday" when confirmed. Asked if you can't confirm yet. Stated as fact when you do confirm.

Doesn't make you focus, dwell inside of the A...does give you solid place to stand in honesty...where confrontation has been fearful...not acting due to possible reactions...this is teaching your brain you want to change...by changing what you do from your new whys...

Why? Because I choose to live in and from truth.

Why? Because I choose to live in and from respect.

Why? Because I'm worth it...my marriage and my son are worth it.

Why? Because we are valuable, malleable and changeable human beings.

Why? Because I've changed.

Not combative...informative. Requesting clarity and accepting what she says, rephrasing with choice...acknowledging...not judging.

Knowing her symbols aids you in knowing your own.

Loving your W aids you in loving yourself. All we do has that two-way street...choose your intent. Revoke your permission to refute...hand back all statements with ownership...and if you are hearing her say verbatim that you are a mistake...call abuse what it is...enforce your boundaries...because if you don't do that, you won't hold yourself to those same boundaries either.

I didn't invent the two-way street. Don't get after me for enforcing it.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

And I challenge you that verifying was choosing to hurt yourself...I walked that road...I remember feeling like I was hurting myself...when I wasn't. Had to get really clear on my intent...which truly was to verify to know, not to change...to see his choices clearly and then choose myself...and after he went recommitted and went NC (there was two weeks of contact afterward)...then as the months passed and withdrawal cleared, I owned my verifying about myself...my habit, my routine, my need...because if you'll verify when there is contact...you'll verify when there is not...and that's assurance of truth...if you've practiced facing what may hurt...and trace the hurt...to teach yourself, break yourself, of believing she makes, you make...and you're not making her want to maintain NC...or whatever hidden beliefs you have that hurt, hurt, hurt...from your own unreasonable expectations, to your own secret beliefs about yourself...that hurt is a signal. Know it.

LA

Thanks for your comments on the letter.


This is tough considering circumstances such as proximity.


Yes, to some degree. We still maintain a joint account that we each contribute a set amount to.


No - and this is another thing that I need to speak to a lawyer about.


Yeah, I know. And it's probably true - no it's totally true. I DO hold and operate from beliefs that are false, mistaken, immature, romantic, etc.


I appreciate this. I am not sure I can see this as something that's not just a human trait. I think everyone judges in order to fit what they're experiencing into their belief structure - it's a natural part of human cognition. Yet there is a distinction between the way I'm judging here that's objectionable and what I'm referring to.


No. Part of the reason I don't is because I want to protect my source. Another reason I don't is because I don't want to be seen as spying on her. I know that she hasn't ended the A, she knows I know this. I'm not her parent, and she reacts to this sort of thing by calling me controlling, etc. I know what I've seen, what difference does it make that she knows I know? That's essentially all this does, right?

Anyway, when I saw the number yesterday I deleted it. It was on the phone again this morning. I have had thoughts about asking her when the last time she communicated with him was - giving her an opportunity to lie, expecting it even. Why do I want to be underhanded about this? Today it hurt a bit to see the number. I guess somewhere inside I was hoping that the number was in the memory from months ago. Clearly it's not.

The other thing that makes it sting is that I went to work last night, and she called me telling me that she had gotten a strange phone call. It made her uncomfortable, scared her a little. I left work to get home so she would feel safe. Why do I expect some sort of equity? Why am I expecting things to be fair?

Another thing WW said on Saturday: "You're waiting for me to love you to love me. Your loving actions are contingent on mine." Which I see as false, because I think I am acting in loving ways towards her of my own volition. She also said something about hypocrisy, talking about how she expects something from me but isn't giving it, saying that she doesn't claim to love me, so she doesn't have to do anything. Feels like she's trying to badger me into giving her the ideal cake eating scenario. Like telling me I'm not scratching her back in quite the right place.


I can see where this is coming from. Not trying to catch her, not trying to punish her, just trying to gain understanding and knowledge.


Let me see if I can explain this a bit better. I know she said she was not going to talk to him, but this did not mean NC to me. She never committed to this, so I didn't feel that there was anything to confirm. In my eyes she hadn't gone NC, she was simply posturing to make things easier, to take it down under the radar a bit. I knew then and know now that it still continues, whether there's evidence or not.


Not coming after you for anything! I think this reciprocal relationship you're talking about, this mirroring is very valuable, very much the way I have viewed things before this started, but a lot more developed. It's intuitive to me. I still have a lot of learning to do.


It wasn't verifying that was hurting me. It was obsessing. It was my disbelief, my struggle with accepting the reality of what was happening. It was my saying that this shouldn't be happening, and fighting to drum up every reason why it shouldn't in an attempt to get my WW to see them because I did and these reasons were self evident. Knowing contact continued because of the evidence I'd seen with my own two eyes wasn't what hurt.

MT,

I'm not sure where you see the benefit of proximity...others have intermediaries who are only by email...not even in the same country, necessarily. Pick someone who be a good buffer...so you don't get anything directly from WW...you get the info, not the rest...you get only questions about your son...changes to pick up times or drop offs...health appts...really basic, functional stuff. Maybe you could think of them as a hopper...like the one I wanted you to thrust on top of your own head...which filters out the extraneous...the intimate...the sharing of stuff...?

On the remaining joint account...would you close that and write her checks out of your account, in Plan B? Again...I'm looking to eliminate a lot of the contact...which we don't even see 'cuz this is daily interaction stuff we can pass right by.

You can have an informal visitation agreement...no lawyer required...you write out one, which is an offer...like you have your son Sunday through Wednesday night...and she can have him Thursday through Saturday night...or ask to flip that over...it's a like first draft...for negotiation...and you make it equitable and fair...with your focus on your son's best interest (both parents, equal time)...and if she says no, I only want him two days, every other weekend, you agree...this is temporary...this is you getting to keep the home environment as seamless as possible...sans Mom...which really sucks...however...Plan B isn't forever...and you get to example to your young son what love is...and it's worth loving through...and acknowledge and validate his stuff, too...which is teaching a child to be okay with their feelings...that they are temporary...and there is balance...you can feel grateful, even joyous, at the same time you feel abandoned or rejected.

That you can feel done to--and not really have it be about you at all...and identify, even at four years old, that you can wish it would be about you, so you'd have some control, make Mommy come back...and be okay with that for right now, too.

This stage is where our wishful child is really cemented in us, btw.


"Yeah, I know. And it's probably true - no it's totally true. I DO hold and operate from beliefs that are false, mistaken, immature, romantic, etc."

Okay...so what a wonderful journey you are sharing rooting these out, holding them up to the light and finding them in yourself, by tracing...not judging...like going through an attic, remembering when...oh yeah, I remember...that was because...wow, I'd forgotten...lovingly knowing, not bashing...not discounting, disparaging...

Wanna do the Owning All Your Villagers exercise? You said you'd already brought all your villagers in...and this one, which judges immature...where did that villager come from?

You choose to believe judgment is necessary...I agree...Judgement of The Truth, our actions, is necessary to know reality. All else, it truly wreaks havoc and is the major source of pain today in every human. Coming from within.

There's no respect in judging our own or others' stuff...and I believe, it's the basis for living in fantasy...

"I appreciate this. I am not sure I can see this as something that's not just a human trait. I think everyone judges in order to fit what they're experiencing into their belief structure - it's a natural part of human cognition. Yet there is a distinction between the way I'm judging here that's objectionable and what I'm referring to."

First, find where you benefit in choosing to believe if every human does it, it's okay...which goes to breathing, eating, physical requirements...the rest is subjective. You actually are using comparison (which is judgment) about judgment here. Highlighting, not condemning. Consider we are taught a lot of overlap and that we hold onto it is a choice.

And would you alert yourself to your payoff? When you compare, you feel better...because the comparison hands you a new belief, or doublechecks an old one...and saying, "It's okay to do this because everyone does" is a lie we tell ourselves...see the separation...we don't really breathe by choice...eat...sleep...our physical necessities...though at times, humans do. Every thought, belief, perception...our stuff...is OUR CHOICE. Solely. Not breathing...no automatic reactions...the few we truly have from our old brains include the startle reflex...sneezing...still bodily functions, not our stuff, our discretionary power stuff.

When you compare you, your stuff...and find comfort...you may also be comparing WW (even when she was not WW) to find comfort...giving you false evidence, reasons to love, her earning yours...you earning hers...through comparison. And comparison is a wayward action...how you get to justification, through entitlement, momentum by resentment and allowance by lack of respect.

It's all related.

A human trait...yes, we all have the capability of judging, just as we do of choosing, which is our power, and not being able to control, our human limit. Our choice to judge, to lie, to omit, to smooth and take on what isn't ours...and to choose NOT to know ours is all within us as humans, freedom and responsibility and love in our design. Sorting it out through judgment is a trait? I dunno. Our human brains can't tell time or reality from fantasy. So where's the inherent judgment? Nature or nurture? Does it matter?

God says, "Do not judge lest ye be judged." Clearly defined two-way street IS a human trait...universally. What you do to others you will do to yourself. And vice versa. Permissions we grant within go without...and vice versa. Constantly. How you profit from judgment may be costing you a relationship, especially with yourself.

Affects, impedes, nourishes, connects and disconnects...through choice...not accident...but by design.

You get to choose how you experience life...through judgment or without...through comparison to others, to a neutral standard...objectively...or without. One is from truth and the other, I believe is fantasy. I respect you choose.

I'm greatly trying to influence your choice.

I almost typed, "Try it. You'll like it." LOL

"No. Part of the reason I don't is because I want to protect my source. Another reason I don't is because I don't want to be seen as spying on her. I know that she hasn't ended the A, she knows I know this. I'm not her parent, and she reacts to this sort of thing by calling me controlling, etc. I know what I've seen, what difference does it make that she knows I know? That's essentially all this does, right?"

All this does...hmmm. Stating truth...sharing what you know...knowing and sharing your truth...and bringing reality, which is The Truth...only if you want to live from truth. That's essentialy all this choice does...lives up to your own code.

Would you consider not telling as a way to keep her from changing her method of contact? A manipulation? From your own fear? If she chooses not to be transparent, and that's what she's choosing...then YOU choose. Difference is, do you want to live by omission or light?

And if you choose omission, that won't affect me posting to you, not judging you. Recognition and awareness...not thinking less of you for your choices. Your knowledge of them, each one, why you're choosing, in highest honesty...is how we live freely.

You state fact, not to try to get her to face facts...to state truth of actions. You have no power to get to own, face, realize, feel, think, believe or perceive anything. You know that. Takes the outcome control out of the equation for self-honesty...you state truth because you want to live in reality, for clarity and freedom.

You're not spying...you're accepting your WW lies by omission. You cannot get the truth from her...just her truth. So you obtain the facts of contact...you know them. That's not spying or obsession. It's knowing truth to live from it...make your choices from clear lines.

She can call you controlling...and you can take that to be the truth...unless you KNOW the truth. And you are not. No one is controlling over that which they have no control. We sure can experience life as if we can.

How are you doing with verbal abuse, btw? Are you researching it, to know what it is, how to spot it, not do it and enforce your boundaries when it's done to you?

This is basically a choice you make either as response-based or code-based. Conflict isn't what we avoid...intimacy can be seen as conflict...doesn't mean it is.

Wishing the number was stored from memory from months ago is how you self-soothe...and it's false. If you'll consider treating yourself with respect, that your capable of knowing truth, it won't kill or consume you...or end your marriage. It won't. Then you'll begin to trust yourself, know yourself, and accept yourself a ton more...as is...who you really are.

There are two halves to the abuse dance...one to do it and one to take it. Taking it requires DJs, turning blind eyes, and rewriting incidence...all self-betrayal to innocent self. Same for the the abuser...has to not see it's abusive, (usually thought of as normal, acceptable, through comparison), DJ and rewrites...and abusers feel constantly that they are the victims. They are brimming with blame, not truth...not a human trait. A human capability.

Would you consider part of the sting you felt was coming from your own self-deception about the number being stored in memory?

We can feel entitled when we believe we earn love...giving to get...which negates our real Giver and our real Taker...involves a lot of self-deception...you chose to leave work and go home for her...because your presence matters...as does your choice. An act of love, pure, if your intent was to be present with her, through your concern, not as to what your actions may appear to be to her. Response-based versus code-based choices.

One of those would keep you filled with joy through today...the other cannot be filled with anything but temporary self-image boost and then sharp drop of betrayal.

"I love who I really am." "I love how I act on my love."

There is an alterable fairness in this world.

You heard me.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

That two-way street is human justice. You're willing to leave work and go home to be present with your WW while she fears...feels concern...then you're willing to be brave and sit with yourself, knowing you're brave and true. You won't let yourself down...desert yourself...

She will attack, discount and define you...and you know she's doing that to herself, also...not as a solace to you, as truth. Trust in this immutable justice...so you can align to your own code and stop trying to manipulate, force justice...earn love...and punishment...and in doing so, revoke your permission to BE punished, as well, so you can enforce healthy boundaries around yourself.

That's right...know you fear her response and act, anyway.

Seems to me a lot of humans grow up and align themselves with people...their partners...which is why we get chaotic, messy, living from feelings...we are aligning to a dynamic changing being and we ARE one...no lines, clarity or truth. Universals help humans to connect...aligning to people actually increases our disconnect.

My perspective.

"because I think I am acting in loving ways towards her of my own volition." I believe this is a lie to yourself, as well. You're getting there...you're not there. Why? Can you say, "I heard her viewpoint...very reasonable given my choice history, my belief history. Not true now. I know I act from my pure intent...to act from love, not fear. To love from choice, not earn it."

Hey, replacing this ancient belief is really difficult...boomerangs back...self-doubt, as we discussed, isn't negative...it's a doublecheck, giving you the opportunity to know your thoughts more clearly, and tell your brain twice, THIS is what I want. Then smile.

"I'm hearing you choose not to love me, act on your love, nor feel loving feelings right now. I understand."

Separate O&H statement later..."I felt badgered when you said you don't love me therefore don't choose to do loving acts. I perceived, at first, that you were trying to get me to do or think or feel something. I realized this was how I used to react...looking how to fix, change or ignite you. When I repeated what you said and you confirmed, it really helped me to not perceive you as attacking me."

Reasonable to me...and you felt badgered. Stating what you feel, what you're perceiving...is honest. Not as refutation, information. I say to wait on the O&H statements as drivebys...because this is scarred ground you both are communicating on...first stage is safety first, second stage is when both parties know this is sharing, not arguing...then O&H statements are exchanged...accepted. Third stage is sharing with filter...similar to that O&H statement I made up, only you do it as your listen and repeat...and to get to second and third, takes a lot of ownership...solid awareness of separate and equal...what sharing is and why you choose to do it...worth getting to that third stage.

I really think if you would predetermine your progressive boundary enforcements, for the sake of real connection and safe communication...any action you choose to take will seem easier, rewarding, validating and clean for you.

Could be my wishful child talkin', too.

Kudos, btw, on recognizing your giving to get...you mentally know and embrace that you really love, have always loved, by choice...getting that sunk into your heart (which fears no one choosing to love you, even you) takes time and commitment to this very real part of our human design. Staying aware of the whys behind your choices...and sometimes, choosing to do the same thing for a different intent...changes everything...if you hold yourself to practicing, believing, repeating and experiencing.

On my self-deception clarity question...you told us that there had been no contact since January...I'm asking you if my perception is astray here by what you said, or if you purposefully skewed the facts from fear (of abandonment) guilt, a mix of all, or if I'm holding you to what I heard, not what you said. I'll let this go if you'd prefer...might not be the time or place for it...and I'm not asking for The Truth...I'm asking for yours.

You believe there's been frequent contact in the year since DDay. The A hasn't stopped. My misunderstanding that the year since DDay meant that NC had been achieved was my own DJ, which I assumed the phrase she stopped contact in January, or no contact since January meant. You didn't. I got that.

The Truth: You aren't in recovery. You are in Plan A to end the A. Means you are the reality bringer, practice authenticity, share truth through exposure. Know and act from love to meet ENs, eliminate LBs.

When the A continues...you go to Plan B. Tell me, did you not do this because then it felt like she won? She got what she wanted, given Plan B FEELS like divorce, but isn't?

In old battles, when a man had to slice another human being from gut to gullet, he had to see that person not as a human, but as an enemy...a concept...label and reduce him to two-dimensions...because that enemy was trying to kill him. Necessary perception.

You're not trying to gut your W...Plan B is you being brave and gutting the A...the concept...making your WW the A's ally and your W your marital ally...the A, the monster. Primary enemy. So a concept fits. That's how it saves your marriage. No cake-eating involved...and I promise you, it's where you can know your true value, your real stuff...cuts off the VB, the enmeshment (for you AND for her), acknowledges you meeting your ENs, watching your own LBs inward...which is what heals marriages...self-knowledge and marital loyalty.

What if obsessing was a signal to you...that you'll go crazy, hurt twenty worse than you've experienced, from NOT enforcing your boundaries...and you'll be doing it to your sweet, innocent self? What if it isn't a defect...we obsess when we feel attacked, out of control...useful tool, to obsess...for a limited time...we accept our obsessing, helps to accept how foggy WW's obsess a bit more...doesn't come from real love...comes from REAL fear.

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Not believing yourself, trusting yourself to see and know, understand truth, that is very painful. Shouldn't is a signal...alerts us to fantasy...Shouldn't be happening is saying we aren't in touch with what is happening...that another is choosing. Accepting you want them to choose differently. Reasonable desire. Not in our control. What is remains our choice. My point has been that by getting tangled in the shouldn't, you didn't exercise your choice, from reality. Focusing on getting someone to stop choosing is a way of distracting us for our choice.

A's are distraction...being aware of where we distract helps to heal that huge tear we get in the reality of A's.

Acceptance has no struggle...reality has no struggle...it IS acceptance of what is...The Truth. Just like knowing others' truth really doesn't hurt...we hurt inside from exactly what you said...wanting their truth to be different. To benefit us...when we aren't benefitting ourselves.

In A's, we feel tremendous rejection...a lot of that is continued through judgment. Higher the level of judgment, the lower the level of acceptance...hence, reality.

I've worked on this for hours today...this post. What a blessing. Thank you for having me...for my own clarity, growth and awareness. You're rippling around the world, sharing your stuff...being a blessing through your choice to share your stuff. Thank you very much.

LA

LA,

Thank you. Lots of great stuff in there. I have to re-read.

I'm somewhat defeated today. A bit angry with myself. Nothing like watching yourself, judging yourself, seeing what you're judging as bad keep happening, excusing yourself, your poor actions because of those of another.

I want to answer all of your questions, but your question about researching abuse I'll answer now. I have that book - the verbally abusive relationship - on my list, and I'm planning to go to the store (got some money for atta-boy awards this week) this weekend.

Before lunch, W calls about the cable bill. She forwarded me the bill via email on Monday for today. We don't have money in the account to pay it until Friday. She asked me whether it was paid, and then why. I have a hard time talking about stuff at work, so I didn't really give her a clear answer, but rather asked her if she had checked the account ballance. She got nasty with me and I told her we could talk when I got home.

To give you some history on this, WW has been writing the checks for most of the bills and balancing the check book for some time. When I disconnected the internet, she decided that she wasn't going to do it anymore, but she told me that she didn't want to be the only one doing it. We agreed that we would both maintain records of the bills, due dates and payments. She was going to give me a sheet every month, and then email the bill information (due date and amount) and whoever paid the bill would email with the amount paid and the date so we could update our records. This agreement, with the obvious redundency really wasn't ideal to me. Gmail has a spreadsheet sharing function, which I wanted to use. I had actually adapted her paper worksheets into spreadsheet for thinking we could both use it and keep the same information within reach of each of us. She said she doesn't understand my spreadsheets and she feels dumb when she uses them. Ok, I accomodated her by keeping parallel records.

Well, this plan didn't work quite this way. Apparently I was supposed to do everything, keep the records, pay the bills, everything. I had emailed her when I paid bills, but I didn't get the information I needed, and a couple of bills were paid late as a result. But I attribute this to not having the information I needed because of my WW. This is wrong, I know it is, because if I had paid attention and made sure I got the information I needed without waiting on her to give it to me things would have gotten done. Instead I depended on her and excuse my failings here with her actions. She drops the ball, I can too.

Well, this afternoon she went at me for it. Telling me I can't take care of my family. Telling me I'm incapable of getting this stuff done, that if she doesn't do it herself it doesn't get done. I tried to explain my lack of clarity on the plan and suggested that we come up with a clear plan where our responsibility is properly deligated and we will not have any trouble in the future. She felt like I was not accepting any responsibility for the failure and that I was blaming her for it all. And the stupid thing is that I WAS. I got defensive and responded by making excuses and blaming, no matter how culpible she was in the situation, I was playing the blame game.

It really hurt that she attacked my ability, that she told me I was incapable. It hurt that she said that I wasn't able to take care of my family. And I'm angry with myself that she's able to say these things. I'm angry that the facts are out there, that I allowed these things to happen. I know the responsibility is not mine alone, and this is what really angers me. I dropped the ball, but she did too. She dropped it on purpose, to test me, to punish me for disconnecting the internet, and most of it got done, despite the fact that I didn't have all of the information. I used the fact that she wasn't doing anything, that she was deliberately not participating as part of my justification for not doing what we needed to do. And I can't respond to this appropriately. I kick myself, I challenge kicking myself, justifying and excusing my actions, but I can't see the problem clearly. Is it my laziness? My hectic schedule? Carelessness? This is one of those things WW constantly picks on, tells me I just don't care about anything. I'm just so disorganized, and I try and come up with a plan that organizes both our efforts and it's shot down. I do my own part in the finances - I have done budgeting, analysis, etc., I ensure we have cash when we need it. But I've even let this go for several weeks. Why? I have a feeling it's because I gave myself permission based on my W's actions. Her actions don't excuse mine just as they don't dictate mine, yet I give myself permissions based on them. URGHHHHHHHHHHHH.

Well, the conversation ended with her telling me that she can't stand to have anything to do with me and that she can't wait till I'm totally out of her life. She made all sorts of accusations that I would lie to her, that I was this or that, throughout the conversation. She wouldn't even listen to me, she would interject by telling me what she expected me to say - always something nasty - I can't believe she thinks so little of me, that she sees me as something so vile. And because there's a general truth that spouses usually are very accurate about their opinions on what's wrong with their spouses and what they're doing to damage the relationship, I have to accept that this image she has of me is accurate on some level. I responded to her telling me that she couldn't wait till I was out of her life with "when are you leaving". Childish, I know, but it's something I wouldn't have said months ago for fear of driving her away.

What this really comes down to with me is that I'm insecure about my abilities to manage the whole financial aspect of running a family. I have always tried to make it a team effort, and my W doesn't work well like that, so she takes it on herself. When it falls on my shoulders entirely, which it hasn't done since I was single, I haven't really created an organized approach to it. I always flew by the seat of my pants, so to speak. Well, that sort of worked when I was in college, but not now. All the little systems I've created worked, but the big picture, with me in all the different jobs hasn't worked. Not couldn't, hasn't. My ideas for distributing responsibility have been good ones. And I know that as long as the responsibility is clear I have no trouble taking care of my part. Here I go justifying and excusing again. If it's not my wife, it's circumstances - never me. But yet I am taking responsibility here. Anyway, what I was saying is that it stung when my WW attacked me on this because I feel inadequate about it myself. I'm ashamed of my history, and I do feel like I'm not exactly an asset to the family when it comes to this - but I AM, I have great ideas that are shot down by my W because they're too complex or there is some component to them that makes her feel inadequate, I'll have to teach her something that will make her feel like a 2 year old. Strange that I feel shame, yet I'll post this in a public place. It's helpful in some way to get these internal workings out in the open - however else will I share it this well?

So basically, my WW felt the only solution she could draw was to take it all on herself and resent me for it. All or nothing. So she's working on it, I'm working on my catch up stuff. We'll be in a good place. I'll draw up a new budget that she can review. Anyway, she called me and told me she wasn't calling to badger me, just to get information. Asked about a couple of bills. We had a nice interaction. I appologized for being an idiot during our conversation. I really felt like a fool, I wasn't apologizing to get a reaction from her. Now comes the hard part - changing so this never happens again. I just feel like I keep losing more and more respect, I'm becoming smaller and smaller, and giving her less reason to want to be with me. This is certainly in line with what she's telling me, and that she's telling me contributes to me feeling like I can't do better. Again, this exposes my belief that her actions force me to act a certain way, or force a reaction in me. They don't. Maybe it's wishful thinking, but I always felt that I would do much better if she was appreciating and admiring me. But I guess that's another place where I am excusing my lack of doing for myself with her actions. What I most need from her I need to give myself.

Thanks for listening, and for allowing me to share some less attractive stuff.

I lost an hour's worth of work on this post! I hit the scroll wheel while holding cntrl or something and it sent the browser back and I lost everything I typed. I'm going to try and reproduce it.


Just thinking about someone to handle passing off the kid!


I believe it comes from my father. I used to disobey him and felt that the consequences (spankings, etc) were the price I had to pay. But he used to make it clear how people would judge me because of my actions, what my actions made me into. I disobeyed him, but I respected him because he was responsible and mature. Now I judge my own actions as either what I "should" do based on what I think he would do, and what I feel like doing. There's clearly overlap, but that's where I think it comes from.


Ok, so maybe we're talking about the same thing. When you say judgment of the truth do you mean things like judging a color against your belief of what that color is? Judging whether it's warm out? I also would like to suggest that this destructive judgment is more something along the lines of "value judgment" in that you're comparing yourself and others against a scale. Allows you to move people up or down on the scale relative to you, pretending it's objective, yet you control it. Do you think this distinguishes dysfunctional from healthy judgment?


I think this is in awareness. But I think my distinction above between value judgment and cognitive judgment clarify this point. My statement about the normalcy of judgment was more about cognitive judgment, not value judgment or interpersonal judgment. Think about language and how you pick your words - generally it's your judgment at work, trying to illustrate your ideas as clearly as possible. Normal and I think OK.


Very powerful statement. I think comparison is essential to the scale I spoke of above, forces you to keep score which leads to this expectation of fairness, of tit for tat, which leads to resentment, and then respect is nullified on the grounds that it must be earned and the other person's actions haven't earned this.


When I was younger I used to believe that this spoke to justice and fairness in the world, that if I judge someone another person (or God) would judge me. Also I saw opportunity in it, a tactical advantage: if I chose NOT to judge, I would be entitled to not being judged by anyone else. Now I see this as a sort of instant justice, where my judgment on another person instantly forces the rules I'm choosing to use against another person to push them down the scale against myself. I'm cementing these rules that I'm going to break in the future and have in the past. There's one major concept in life that I believe in, and that's that I'm human, so therefore I am capable of anything any human does. Capable of the good as well as the bad. I think we internalize all aspects of our society and different parts of our being resemble different parts of it. We have a large portion of our population in prison, a part of ourselves is criminal. We have great thinkers, problem solvers, etc, we have these parts of our self as well.


I don't want to be a fraud, not by omission or outright lying. Yes, my not telling is a manipulation. I am trying to keep her comfortable so she doesn't do anything new or different.


This is one of the things that I have to look at. One of the issues that my WW has with me is that my self soothing in her eyes is my highest priority. It's pretty selfish to do this, and I think it's ugly too.


And this is ugly too. I see too much in here that I relate too. So much fantasy. Scary. I know it's about the interactions, but I FEEL like a problem myself for fitting into this description.


Ok, one of the things from your abuse dance description that rings true here is that when she attacks me I see it as an attack on herself right then and there. This is a DJ, because I'm seeing her as her own victim, which in truth she is, but I'm using this to justify me not doing anything about it. I guess this is justifying my choice not to act because of my fear and is self deceptive in that I believe she's given herself her punishment, there's nothing for me to do here.


I'm not sure I ever truly see my pure intent. Parts of myself seem to operate without my conscious participation and I only realize it later. Are you suggesting that I can't love unless I can separate myself, until I can know all my intentions in the instant?

I have to run. Thanks for all that you share, and for the time you spend. And thanks for your appreciation, I do appreciate it!