MT,

I began a post to you earlier this weekend...then went away for the rest of it. I'll get it in today.

After reading your most recent post, I have a question.

"I think this is THE most frustrating thing about this whole process. I can impact the dynamics of the relationship, but I have no power over how she sees it."

This is The Truth...now, how do you see it? When you feel frustration, notice where your perspective is...where you're sitting...is it in your power? Or in others' stuff?

See if your frustration drops when you re-focus on your own, accepting reality and if you feel more powerful when you address your own perception when you let me know if it's authentic, or wishful.

Thanks,

LA

I'm not really sure what you're asking. I know it's truth, and I know it's also wishful thinking on my part to think that anything I can do can impact this. It's not good use of my energy to focus on what I can't control, and I'm not really doing so. I guess what I'm getting at is that I have a sense of futility in what I'm doing here because of my belief that unless she starts seeing the relationship differently it has no choice but to crash and burn. I'm not trying to control what I can't, I'm frustrated that what can make the most dramatic difference is outside of my control.

I guess I am so invested in doing my part to make the relationship work that anything that threatens this becomes a personal threat to me. If she talks to her friend that has supported and enabled the A I feel uncomfortable. If this friend acts lovingly towards my son I feel angry, I think about how hypocritical her behavior is - that she claims to love him, yet is making herself a part of the great damage to him that a divorce will do. I'm not struggling against her, trying to bend her to my will, I'm not trying to influence her behavior, I'm not struggling because I think she is causing my WW to act the way she is, I'm frustrated and annoyed with her because she is choosing to align herself the way she is. Am I in her stuff? I think my feelings are natural, but are they harmful here? I think it's more dangerous to me to ignore them and act like they don't exist. I sometimes think that with this particular issue I should set a boundary and tell her that I don't want her in my home, or that I don't want her in contact with my son.

Alright, kindof a small issue, but it's affecting me more than I'd like. W is working today, and it's the first day that we've had to use the new babysitter we picked out. W was in a GREAT mood this morning when I took her to work, and I told her that I really enjoyed being around her when she was so happy. She gave me a coy look, kindof telling me that she's not there for me to enjoy, but she enjoyed the compliment too. Almost looked like she was feeling a bit guilty for enjoying it. WW had put together a card with all of the contact numbers for the sitter - another thing I openly admired (her organization). Well, I dropped off our son after lunch and dropped him at the sitter's house. We shared a couple of words and then I left. W called and asked me how it went. I told her it was fine - he was happy to be there and quickly said bye to me. She asked me if I had told the sitter that he might need to use the bathroom. I told her that I hadn't, that I was sure our son would ask her if he did. She asked me if I had told her that he might need to be wiped. I hadn't. Her tone changed and I could tell she was getting either stressed or worried. I feel responsible for this. She told me that these were things the sitter should know. I didn't think of them, because I don't really worry about things like that.

So, I am affected by this for several reasons, that I can think of. One, I feel like I'm irresponsible for not worrying about these things and not doing what I "should" have done, even though I acknowledge the fact that these are my W's concerns, her anxieties, and she didn't take action (such as asking me to make mention of these things to the sitter) to aleviate her anxiety. So I feel guilty. Secondly, I feel unfairly blamed for being irresponsible, even though I don't really think I was, so I feel defensively angry. Thirdly, I feel like I let her down, I caused her to feel stressed or anxious when she was having such a good day. I feel like I am the cause of her misery. Now she's going to worry about him for the rest of the day because I didn't ask the questions I "should" have. Totally irrational, but still active within me. The last thing I feel is fear. Fear that because I am involved in this incident my W is going to want to leave me that much more, because she has involved me in her anxiety somehow. This comes down to feeling like when she's happy we have a chance and when she's unhappy, and I'm culpable, we don't.

It's so depressing to understand how baseless all of this unrest in me is. I don't want to react to this stuff, yet I still do. I still take her feelings personally.

Wow, MT...that has to be the best shared spiral I've ever seen...well traced, charted, without judgment about sharing your spiral (those observer comments on yourself)...and you know as it happened why it was happening...

You really share well with yourself.

Opening your mouth and saying all of this to your W would be the key...sharing what you know of your process...to share, not to get cured by her or undone...just to share.

Listen and repeat..."I hear that's really a concern for you. You're saying you're worried about him not asking to use the restroom and having trouble wiping if he does, is that correct?"

"Yes. That's what I said."

"Okay, I can choose to call the sitter and let her know, or would you like to call yourself? Thank you for sharing what concerns you with me. I appreciate you."

Nowhere to spiral at all. You know this, in retrospect...if you really want to stop reacting to this stuff, you'll trace your reaction to the belief you have...

If you take her feelings as yours...as The Truth, not Her Truth...what's your payoff? How does it benefit you to do this? Until you get to that, you'll keep doing it, won't you?

You've got a false payoff...find the reason.

Now, back to your previous post...

"I'm not really sure what you're asking. I know it's truth, and I know it's also wishful thinking on my part to think that anything I can do can impact this."

You know that humans are limited in their influence by what others allow. You've got her influence on you wide open...waaaay too wide open...you take on her feelings, her thoughts, her stuff. Narrow the influence you allow.

And you know it's your wishful child inside wanting to be more powerful...great signal to you from you that you're not using your REAL power...that happens when you feel the urge to use imaginary power.

People who write about and draw super heroes are trying to bring into their lives what they already are...not using their power tends to focus us on who has it and getting it from them...not realistic. Meaning, not in reality.

"It's not good use of my energy to focus on what I can't control, and I'm not really doing so. I guess what I'm getting at is that I have a sense of futility in what I'm doing here because of my belief that unless she starts seeing the relationship differently it has no choice but to crash and burn."

What I hear is that your lack of belief in yourself, your choices, your goals...your belief your marriage can be saved...is sinking your tushie, am I close? Not her...you. You can choose to believe you're half of the marriage...what she does, thinks, believes is about her half...not yours...so the more you respect her limited power, the more you'll see your own and stop sabotaging it.

A very powerful statement here on MB for the BS who decides to save their marriage is: "I don't do divorce. I do marriage."

Your God-given freedom is choice...to CHOOSE to have this belief, act from it, revel IN it...not dependent on her response or beliefs. Respect hers...and respect your own.

Is that the belief you're choosing now?

"I'm not trying to control what I can't, I'm frustrated that what can make the most dramatic difference is outside of my control."

How is your influence on yourself? Do you allow much, going inward? Are you harsh and invasive, or are you safe to know about yourself, what's in your control...can you get a charge from that power and energy...when you're looking at all you don't control?

"I guess I am so invested in doing my part to make the relationship work that anything that threatens this becomes a personal threat to me."

Awww...you're learning to separate events from self...other people from self...there are three of you in your marriage...You, Her and The Marriage. Do for The Marriage what you may not want to do for her...which is telling your brain you want to honor, even if you don't feel like it. Less reactive, more active that way.

"If she talks to her friend that has supported and enabled the A I feel uncomfortable."

That may be her friend, not a friend of your marriage. I believe you're sensing that. Know which of your own friends are not friends of your marriage. Then share what you find out with WW..."I didn't know a lot of what I'm learning right now. I had to tell Jeff, who I consider a friend to me, that we couldn't communicate anymore until he chose to be a friend of my marriage, not just of me. This stuns me, still...makes so much sense. Listening to him tell me to dump you because you're a cheater, always a cheater...he wants to protect me, and I want friends who will protect my marriage."

"If this friend acts lovingly towards my son I feel angry, I think about how hypocritical her behavior is - that she claims to love him, yet is making herself a part of the great damage to him that a divorce will do."

Are you in her presence when she acts this way? Why not actually share what you're thinking, "I'm watching you authentically act lovingly towards my son...when you supported and enabled his family's destruction. I'm feeling confused and angry, fearful and unsure right now."

"I'm not struggling against her, trying to bend her to my will, I'm not trying to influence her behavior, I'm not struggling because I think she is causing my WW to act the way she is, I'm frustrated and annoyed with her because she is choosing to align herself the way she is. Am I in her stuff?"

Yes, and you're not in your own. When you struggle with these signals...you're not getting them. Permission to speak is tough...because manipulatively, acting and speaking based on possible response, inhibits YOU from being true to yourself. Gonna be mind-looping for awhile...once you really learn to share, that frustration and annoyance goes away.

That's part of NOT living in your power...staying aware of where and how you betray yourself.

"I think my feelings are natural, but are they harmful here? I think it's more dangerous to me to ignore them and act like they don't exist."

Definitely!

"I sometimes think that with this particular issue I should set a boundary and tell her that I don't want her in my home, or that I don't want her in contact with my son."

Awww...first boundary enforcement of mine is to speak...I hold myself to it when I amend and when enforce...speak first...for clarity, honesty and from respect. Your choice. She may choose to not act lovingly towards your son...she may choose to rethink, re-address...retaliate...doesn't matter. Striking first tends to negate all their choices...take them in and make them your own (in fantasy)...leave room through respect.

First offense, speak. Share. State.

Second offense...speak and remove with a time limit.

Third offense...restate, remove, longer time limit.

And so on...so you have seven great enforcements before you hit the final one.

When you reach for the final one first, well, doesn't that demand perfection?

Which means, you'd have to be perfect, too?

All of your feelings are real, understandable...even felt by us, other posters. They are valid. Look for what they are signalling you about you...because if you react from them...then you're being wayward...your feelings, your signals, are dictating your life, without even knowing what those signals mean...which is emotional management...managing your emotions instead of divining them.

Your choice. I prefer to get the darn signals.

LOL

"She was angry that there were dishes in the sink, etc. I let it slide off of me and later tried to address the rest of the day."

Okay...POO required here. (Point of Ownership)...how do you feel when you voice a concern to your WW and she lets it slide off of her...frustrated, unheard, invisible?

Acknowledgment is love...it's what we do so we can be in reality, act from respect and thrive. "I hear the dishes in the sink this morning really bother you. Are you angry that I didn't do them, or that you didn't or are you feeling angry?"

"She asked me if I was going to my parents house (I had mentioned earlier that I thought it might be a nice idea to go there together and look at the pictures my father took while he was overseas and then leave our S with my parents and go out to eat together - this was before she commented on wanting our son to come with us) and I wasn't able to really commit to an answer."

You didn't choose to answer...or to share all that you wanted to do and why...your truth really was, "I want some alone time with you and I want my parents to watch dear S while I get it...because I trust them. With others, I worry. I want to just hang with you...play this or do that...part of getting to that is listening to my father, honoring him and his trip. What do you think?"

Your WHOLE truth is important...not parts and pieces. Lots of times I felt negated because my DH rejected the tiny part of my truth...and it felt like the whole of it...and he didn't even KNOW it.

"I told her that I might if she was interested in going, but that having dinner together was my top priority for the day. She told me that she had to do some work and study. I went out for a bike ride."

Left things unresolved...talked about interested in...this or that...not "Here's what I want most...having time alone, morning noon or night for three hours straight. My thought is dinner...what's yours?"

Now...you may have done this and I'm not hearing it...I don't have a reference...what I did know was before I read on, that it all went to heck in a handbasket. I now recognize when I dance around, full of the protection from rejection intent...and fall down on my tushie, bruising myself.

I even say aloud now, "Oh, I'm doing it again. I'm treating you like you're my enemy the way I'm dancing around what I want. Here it is..."

Awareness, not judgment. You can't make her your enemy unless you make her your enemy.

How are you doing with me showing you your part? Are you hearing, "You're all wrong...everything you do and say is wrong...you're screwing up" or are you seeing your power..."Here's where I see you handing over your power...which you can't really do. It's yours. Oh, and here's your fantasy behind it...is that close?"

Again, addressing the frustration and lack of hope...you're choosing to focus where you have no power and overstepping where you do.

When you speak from your desire for openness and honesty, you fill that EN...and it's you doing it. Like sharing your mind's process (that gorgeous, horrid spiral we do), your feelings, what you were thinking when you watched her friend seemingly act from love...sharing isn't putting it on others...it's putting it in front of them...and you. Owning it. Your choice.

Powerful choice...takes bravery and courage...and commitment.

Like marriage.

When you know and act in your authentic power, your fear drops...not at first...for years you've trained through your beliefs that if you can keep yourself safe when with others, there's no need to fear...which means you make others treat you well...so when they don't, your fear jumps waaaay up...affects you greatly...because you told it a lie for decades.

Now you're telling it The Truth...you have no control...and it's gonna reach to spiral you down with it and back up...hey, your fear loves you...has devised countless ways to protect you...keep you alive...not harmed...(how's that working for ya?) and disconnected...'cuz others kill you, you know. Not you doing it, eh?

Get to know your real fear...the size of a toddler...you, the toddler, inside...not the giant which has you quaking in its shadow...with fists like hams, hugely intimidating...until you hold one of those super large hands, say, "I know. I understand. I'll take care of me." and it shrinks, morphs back into the small child it is...and grows from your touch, acceptance, holding him and acting anyway.

That's being brave.

And I know you are.

Share all of you...from your commitment to do marriage, not divorce. To have a thriving one...and BE a thriving person...personal and marital recovery...do the work...reap the rewards...let go the outcome...choose your results.

Reactivity got you here...learn that signal, that desire to be reactive...used to be your base of power, full of false promises and false power. You're not getting your real power, yours all along. Congratulations.

LA

Thanks for the acknowledgement. I agree that sharing would be key, and I used to be able to share thoughts like this with my W. I never really had the clarity and insight into why I felt what I did, but I did intimate what I knew at the time. The thing that holds me back right now is my expectation of being judged for sharing. This is founded in experience, knowing that she views my experiencing fear as weakness. Fearing she'll see this understanding as confirmation of me being crazy, or something equally unpleasant. I am making the choice to avoid connection because of fear. In all honesty I have been doing what I can to speak up when something comes up, in the moment, but I haven't articulated anything this intimate in a long time. I won't likely share this particular event with her because it's so far removed from anything we'll likely touch on - then again, it might come up.


Your solution makes sense. I'm focusing on my reaction rather than trying to understand my W in the moment. I need to stop being so self absorbed. I'm not sure I'm taking her feelings as mine, rather I'm allowing her feelings to determine how I feel, and I'm allowing them to determine how I respond. I understand rationally that trying to keep her from being upset with me isn't healthy or good for the relationship yet I keep doing it out of habit.


Yes. You're right about that. I have a habit of knowing what needs to be done, and analyze everything to death, but when it comes down to acting I procrastinate and I don't get certain things accomplished. I know I need to be more focused on my personal goals. I have set some, and I have accomplished several things, but I haven't lived up to realistic expectations. I still put the focus on my W, thinking SHE needs to change in order for things to get better. I see the flaw in this thinking clearly, yet there is a payoff. I have good reason not to expend energy on chasing down goals if they're futile goals. I'm not sure how significant this is. My belief that my marriage can be saved is pretty strong - sometimes I think that it won't end even if I do nothing. It's more my belief that I want it to be, that it should be saved. She doesn't have power over the relationship, she has power over her part of it. I guess I never really saw boundaries in ownership of the relationship before, but I'm most certainly still doing things to sabotage it.


Yes. I have chosen this and have been trying to act from it, but as I've found with many other things, I find myself acting from opposing places, different drives, and I find in retrospect that I don't act with integrity. I'm all over the place - I say I respect her belief, yet I prove that wrong by not acting in respectful ways about her choices.


My influence on myself - that's an interesting concept to me. I don't really know what you mean by your question about allowing much going inward. I think I'm safe to know about myself. I'm not really fixated on control, in fact I tend to believe that the less you try to control something the more control you'll actually have. For example, driving a car, you are better able to manage the motion of a car if you focus on remaining aware and responding with course corrections than if you hold the wheel with a tight grip and force the wheel at all times.


I do need to share here. I have talked to her in the past - she started the conversation - and I basically told her that I resented that she was encouraging my WW, that she was supporting the A. It didn't go over all that well. I got a really strong sense that she was trying to manipulate me, that she was trying to get me to "incriminate" myself. It turned out that she went back to WW and told her that I didn't like her because she was making WW do what she was doing, basically saying that I didn't think my WW made her own choice - something I clearly acknowledged the night before. I'm not sure I really want to share with her.


Ok, so if I'm aware of where I stand and I share it then I'm not trying to see the angle the other person is taking and I will experience the consequences of my own, genuine perspective rather than some manipulated version of the truth designed to get a response. Not a whole lot to be lost here - I understand where I am, so does the other person. If they take issue with it, if they judge it, it's their issue. I'm not getting caught up in a game that doesn't get either of us anywhere - it just furthers the illusion that there is power to be found in manipulation.


Very wise advice.


No - I acknowledged her, I said I let it slide off meaning that I didn't allow it to affect me. I responded that she could leave them there and I would put them in the dishwasher. She didn't want to, but she acted like I wronged her by leaving them there in the first place (I was not leaving them for her - I was going to put them in the dishwasher as I do every morning).


You're right, I have no idea why she was angry (or whether it was even anger), I just know that she was verbally upset and it had something to do with the dishes. Had I acknowledged her attempt at connecting with me, I might know now rather than just supposing. What holds me back from this is that if I ask for clarification, she would likely treat me like I'm stupid for asking about something so obvious.


You're close with my truth - but I did communicate my whole truth. It's my opinion that she didn't hear it all because going to my parent's house was out of the question and I should know that. I ignored the fact that she stated she didn't want to go to my parent's house, thinking she might feel differently because of the family pictures. She wasn't direct with me even though I think I was direct with her. Maybe I could have improved on it. Another thing is that she gets upset when I tell her what I want, what I would like. I am being assertive, not demanding. She has real trouble being assertive, and I think she sees my communicating my desires differently than I do.


You see, it wasn't so much that I was protecting against rejection, it was more that I didn't want to pressure her. I wanted to communicate my desires, which I think I did, but I got frustrated and felt pressured because I didn't get a direct answer. She later told me that she felt that she gave me an answer and I kept asking the question as if I was expecting her to change her mind.


You're right, that's exactly the dynamic. My sharing was seen as aggression, her feeling uncomfortable was seen as a threat.


What you are saying makes sense to me. My perspective is causing me to treat my WW like an enemy or adversary because of feelings I have that are a result of my own personal irrational beliefs.


You're right. I need work in becoming more proactive. Again, this is knowledge I have that I haven't acted on, and I hate to say it, but I think I use this fact against myself. "See, you know you should be doing this, but you're not." Why waste the effort thinking thoughts like this when I could just as easily use the same energy to actually think proactively? What's the payoff there?

Oh, and thanks LA for sharing this stretch of road with me.

MT,

"Your solution makes sense. I'm focusing on my reaction rather than trying to understand my W in the moment. I need to stop being so self absorbed. I'm not sure I'm taking her feelings as mine, rather I'm allowing her feelings to determine how I feel, and I'm allowing them to determine how I respond. I understand rationally that trying to keep her from being upset with me isn't healthy or good for the relationship yet I keep doing it out of habit."

I believe you really nailed this about your choices...you're choosing to make her stuff determine your stuff (see, not just feelings...widen your recognition to include thoughts, beliefs, perceptions and perspectives...what I call "human stuff" for shorthand)...and then you respond from your resulting feelings. You choose to react, not act. Good to know.

"I understand rationally that trying to keep her from being upset with me isn't healthy or good for the relationship yet I keep doing it out of habit."

Now, to break habits, we use truth...only thing which works. Then we act according to the truth...which is how we change our habits, by replacing our actions, repetitively. So..truth is...what you are choosing to do...to keep her from feeling her own feelings, from her, to her, about her...and to take her stuff and determine your stuff from it...is disrespectful, puts you as a reactive slave, out of control, and harms you and others. Trying to manipulate her feelings is abusive. That enough truth to break the habit?

Which is why I emphasizing sharing...when you get the new truth, you speak of it, live from it, "Oh, I'm doing it again. I'm taking your anger as if I'm the cause. I know it's not about me...I'm not the cause. :::breathing deeply::: Okay, I'm set in reality again. I'm listening."

Then again, you don't want her to judge or think you're crazy...you know what? I had to do just what I'm advising you, while my DH was in an A...and let go what he thought or didn't...let go the outcome. I did it because I truly, deeply, honestly didn't want to live disrespectfully, abusively, making my DH my master and me, his slave. I wanted to honor and respect my marriage...so I chose to do that to myself.

Lemme know what you want. If you really don't want to live free, I'll respect that. If you do, I'll help you.

"I still put the focus on my W, thinking SHE needs to change in order for things to get better. I see the flaw in this thinking clearly, yet there is a payoff. I have good reason not to expend energy on chasing down goals if they're futile goals."

Good to know...that you know the future. You know what is futile and what is not...do you know that futility isn't dependent on outcome?

"I'm not sure how significant this is. My belief that my marriage can be saved is pretty strong - sometimes I think that it won't end even if I do nothing. It's more my belief that I want it to be, that it should be saved."

Here's where you outthink yourself into paralysis. Choose your belief...your goal comes from your belief. If you choose to believe one person can save a marriage, then your goal becomes, "I do marriage. I don't do divorce." We don't KNOW if our marriages can be saved or not...and choose our belief that they can be, given our own changes and actions...and act accordingly. We don't have to know the outcome to then set our goal. To do so is self-deceipt.

"She doesn't have power over the relationship, she has power over her part of it. I guess I never really saw boundaries in ownership of the relationship before, but I'm most certainly still doing things to sabotage it."

Consider your choice to setting your goal based on possible response...sure to sabotage it...and not know it. Choose your goals like your intent, do it cleanly...from your deepest desire...and let the outcome go. That's truth. You have no control.

I know you got this...can you see how your perception, your filter, remains unconvinced you got this?

When we take a new belief into ourselves, we have to revoke permissions to believe as we did before...we permitted ourselves before...we do not permit ourselves to do so now.

"Yes. I have chosen this and have been trying to act from it, but as I've found with many other things, I find myself acting from opposing places, different drives, and I find in retrospect that I don't act with integrity. I'm all over the place - I say I respect her belief, yet I prove that wrong by not acting in respectful ways about her choices."

All of this isn't unusual or wrong...what you have are opposing beliefs...find them...share them...get to know when you took them on, made them your beliefs, most likely before you knew you choose your beliefs. To me, has nothing to do with integrity...undiscovery (is that a word?). You're all over the place because you've reacted from feelings and now you want to choose to act directly from the source, your beliefs...takes internal AND external actions.

And time.

And repetition of your stated desire (why mantra's work).

Retraining your brain isn't instant...you trained it to hand you what you wanted, automatically, over decades. Think retraining will be that much faster? Accept what you did and why you did it...you were doing the best you know how then...and you're choosing differently now.

Which is why I say you're re-aligning, not fixing yourself. You weren't broken. You are still not.

Awareness, not judgment.

Rinse. Repeat.

It's GREAT to know what you're doing...being aware...of your filter, your reactions, your feelings, thoughts...YOUR STUFF! How awesome! Celebrate yourself, MT.

"My influence on myself - that's an interesting concept to me. I don't really know what you mean by your question about allowing much going inward. I think I'm safe to know about myself. I'm not really fixated on control, in fact I tend to believe that the less you try to control something the more control you'll actually have. For example, driving a car, you are better able to manage the motion of a car if you focus on remaining aware and responding with course corrections than if you hold the wheel with a tight grip and force the wheel at all times."

Cool. Sure was a new concept to me when I posted it to you...hadn't considered it consciously before. You allow others great influence...to see into you...to react to...so why not see how much influence you give yourself? You say you're not really fixated on control...yet you thought maybe you keep repeating your patterns because you aren't acting with integrity...sounds like a judgment to me. I might be hearing you incorrectly...you want to try to keep your W from feeling what she's feeling, reacting how she's reacting...yet you aren't fixated on control?

Going to our highest honesty is a frightening thing...when we think we do wrong, do harm, aren't safe...then we aren't safe for ourselves. Go there, anyway.

You believe the less you control yourself, the more control you have of yourself? Interesting. I guess I'm asking you to know yourself and control your actions...to act, not react. Not believing you choose didn't work for me. When I saw I had no choice...like my DH had the decision whether or not our marriage was saved...I felt powerless, and I wasn't.

So I made a code to live by...had my standards and boundaries...and I lived from them. I call that control. I owned my choices, my half...and let go the outcome. Maybe what you're saying is in there? Not forcing an outcome?

Okay...so I'm going with that (aided by your car analogy)...you're upping your awareness...high awareness...of your stuff at all times...to know, not to judge. That's allowing great influence, I believe. Keeps focus on you, not others. No slavery there.

Seems to me you have to acknowledge you're driving first. Then to acknowledge you don't own the road.

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"I do need to share here. I have talked to her in the past - she started the conversation - and I basically told her that I resented that she was encouraging my WW, that she was supporting the A."

Was that your highest honesty? That you resented her actions? We create resentment in ourselves and see others doing it to us...making us feel. Did you feel anger, frustration, pain?

"It didn't go over all that well. I got a really strong sense that she was trying to manipulate me, that she was trying to get me to "incriminate" myself. It turned out that she went back to WW and told her that I didn't like her because she was making WW do what she was doing, basically saying that I didn't think my WW made her own choice - something I clearly acknowledged the night before. I'm not sure I really want to share with her."

Why do you say it didn't go over well? Are you saying you didn't change her actions? See, here's where I get lost; and I believe I would have understood you really well immediately, a couple of years ago.

What you didn't say to her was, "I don't believe you are a friend of our marriage. I believe you are attacking our marriage when you encourage others to betray their marriages. Like you are supporting homewrecking, though you look to me as if you really love our son."

I understand your attempt...without clarity. You asked something of her...I'm showing you how to state your stuff, not ask. Share your stuff from your highest honesty (we often catch ourselves in lies when we do this)...with the intent to get her to stop doing something...where your real intent (now) would be to state your stuff and let the outcome go.

You don't share with your WW because she judges and may perceive you as crazy.

You don't share with her friend because she may tell your WW what you say and twist what you said through her filter.

"Ok, so if I'm aware of where I stand and I share it"

I paused your IFTHEN statement...

What does knowing where you stand mean? Is it knowing your intent, making sure it's pure?

"then I'm not trying to see the angle the other person is taking and I will experience the consequences of my own, genuine perspective rather than some manipulated version of the truth designed to get a response. Not a whole lot to be lost here - I understand where I am, so does the other person. If they take issue with it, if they judge it, it's their issue. I'm not getting caught up in a game that doesn't get either of us anywhere - it just furthers the illusion that there is power to be found in manipulation."

Well said. Yes. Only works with "I" statements, not "You" statements.

You know, you helped me...I think that sharing with WW's friend comes after you share with yourself. I put both out there...I do them both now...automatically...I overstep. First know your truth, then share it. That's intimacy.

Clears your fantasy (illusion) fog and retrains your brain.

An act of respect, from love. For everyone.

Because you choose to do so.

"No - I acknowledged her, I said I let it slide off meaning that I didn't allow it to affect me."

Well, you didn't say you listened and acknowledged. Be clear with me, I'm old.

"I responded that she could leave them there and I would put them in the dishwasher. She didn't want to, but she acted like I wronged her by leaving them there in the first place (I was not leaving them for her - I was going to put them in the dishwasher as I do every morning)."

She acted like I'd wronged her...did she say, "I believe you've wronged me"...or were you DJing?

How do you know what she wanted or didn't want to?

See, this is where I don't see anything slide off...

And, no, I'm not calling you a liar. I'm asking you for your highest honesty and ownership...so we both can see and know it...which enhances everything...ripples throughout the world...so there's my hidden agenda in this matter...sir.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

We can't address what we don't acknowledge...what we aren't aware of...the before me was hyper-aware of all things husband...not my own DJs and LBs...even, my ENs...I'm sensing the same thing in you...so I'm going there. Not to bash or to judge...to highlight in yellow for your consideration. Only you know...

I'm guessing. And sharing. And wondering. Not judging.

"Had I acknowledged her attempt at connecting with me, I might know now rather than just supposing. What holds me back from this is that if I ask for clarification, she would likely treat me like I'm stupid for asking about something so obvious."

Ah-HA! :::she says, leaping onto her computer chair with her index finger pointing upward::: So you DIDN'T acknowledge...you just thought you did!

Okay...that was the before me doing the leaping...when I go there, I get there...LOL. Now...hold this insight...to acknowledge in listen and repeat has no DJs, no assumptions or mindreading...keeps you in your space, not in hers. You ask to know (not judge) and teach yourself to be okay with not knowing when not told. (That doesn't apply to A's, 'k?)

If you heard judgment in her words, share that--highest honesty--"I hear you are assuming I was leaving them for you to put in the dishwasher...and I realized, that's my assumption, my reaction. Could you please repeat so I can really hear you?"

Fighting assumption with assumptions...don't get me started. LOL.

"Had I acknowledged her attempt at connecting with me, I might know now rather than just supposing. What holds me back from this is that if I ask for clarification, she would likely treat me like I'm stupid for asking about something so obvious."

Tell what feelings you had when you wrote that...that you are choosing not to acknowledge her attempts to connect...they might get by you in the looping you do in your head...what do you feel when you choose to believe she is connecting to you? She can treat you as stupid...doesn't mean you are. She can do a lot of things and NOT have the power to define you...stop defining HER, MT. That's in your power. Revoke your permission to suppose...we can suppose our way to divorce, unemployment and disownment...without anyone doing or saying a word.

Suppose is a self-deceptive word...invites us to fantasy, which sidesteps reality. "Suppose I do" or say or think...like an IF/THEN statement. Works in computers, not in humans. You ask for clarification (when you've supplied what you heard) because you are committed to acting from respect...and let the outcome go.

Hey, I got bottomed-out (in my feelings) when I was told by three people in my lifetime that I wasn't a good communicator...they were years apart...and each time, I felt that was my one corner, my niche, my knowing ground.

It was hard to realize I didn't know how to communicate...because I didn't listen. Not because I didn't speak. Doing both, from respect, changed everything.

Suddenly, I'm seen as wise.

Instead of a wise...tushie.

And I'm really just me...same me...now I listen. To really listen, you cannot be assuming, mapping, preparing to respond...you are still and you hear. You repeat to clarify what you heard. And you are grateful to yourself and others for sharing and listening...and you share your gratitude.

Your stuff.

When I began really listening, from respect, my WH said I sounded stupid or too clever...out to trap him. I listened and repeated anyway.

First break from slavery.

Free at last.

I didn't refute his perception...I acknowledged that, too. As his. Hopper was on my head...not only did I begin listening to know (not to judge), I spoke more slowly...and I didn't allow his stuff into my own head until I KNEW it was his...and did not take ownership. Nothing to refute...his perception was his, valid. His.

He didn't define me as stupid...he feared my change. He didn't trust my sudden respect. He smelled a trap. For good reason. I trapped previously all the time...and didn't catch anything but heartache.

Self-betrayal HURTS!!

See, when I chose to respect and listen to others without all the crap (judgment, preparation, justification)...I then began to listen to myself...without self-punishing, judgment...etc. See how we free ourselves through our own choices?

What is obvious to one person is not necessarily obvious to another...can be at one time, not another...going back to your driving analogy...we run the stop sign. We know it's there. We've driven that road every day. One day, our thoughts are caught up elsewhere and we run it. Only takes once. Not obvious in that moment.

"You're close with my truth - but I did communicate my whole truth. It's my opinion that she didn't hear it all because going to my parent's house was out of the question and I should know that. I ignored the fact that she stated she didn't want to go to my parent's house, thinking she might feel differently because of the family pictures."

Is that honest, you lying by omission, changing her feelings through assumptions? You didn't state your whole truth if you didn't say, "I believe you'll resist going to my parents house, so I threw in the pictures to bribe you. I'm sorry for that. I heard you really don't want to go there and I really do want to hear why...not to refute, to know."

When you own where you are attempting manipulation, you stop doing it.

"She wasn't direct with me even though I think I was direct with her."

Were you truly direct? Did you include your desire to change her desires?

"Maybe I could have improved on it."

Semantics matter. Improved on what? Sharing your real whole truth? You either do or you don't. Basing your choices on her reactions, then ignoring what you don't want to hear, is self-deceit. Why do I want to put a "p" in that so badly?

Somehow, I've linked self-deceit to receipt in my mind...I deceived myself constantly, like breathing...must have given myself a receipt, evidence, for doing it. Hmmm.

"Another thing is that she gets upset when I tell her what I want, what I would like. I am being assertive, not demanding."

I believe you. I believe she gets upset. I also know that determines your choices. Round and round. Ask, don't assume. And don't assume even if she doesn't answer.

"I don't understand why you're upset right now. I used to assume, make up reasons. I no longer want to do that. I'd like to know if you'll share. Not to fix any of yours, just to know."

"She has real trouble being assertive, and I think she sees my communicating my desires differently than I do."

No wonder you feel judged by her...you judge her a lot. Are you saying that when you communicated your desires before, with that hidden agenda (like ignoring her desires), where you crafted your desires to appeal to her...didn't build trust and security?

Didn't respect her choices as her own?

Her reactions as hers?

You weren't safe...now you can be. Your choice. Revoke your permission to manipulate her stuff...anyone's stuff...set your intent to KNOW not to control.

"You see, it wasn't so much that I was protecting against rejection, it was more that I didn't want to pressure her."

You didn't want to pressure her...you chose to ignore her statement? Do you believe you can pressure her into choosing to do that which she will resent?

Then that means she has your permission to make you do and feel stuff you will resent?

Am I hearing this correctly?

"I wanted to communicate my desires, which I think I did, but I got frustrated and felt pressured because I didn't get a direct answer. She later told me that she felt that she gave me an answer and I kept asking the question as if I was expecting her to change her mind."

Because you wanted her to want to go to your parents house...? Highest honesty...you're safe with me. I'm a confused old lady with pure intent. To see as you see what I'm showing you...to know if what I'm seeing is what you experience, round and round, and if you really do want to change the pattern or change her.

I so don't want you working on becoming more proactive. I want you to focus on being more honest with yourself, your intent, your motives, true desires and get to your core being, not doing.

"Should" is a signal of external living. If this is what you're hearing, you're living from beliefs others handed you...that you took on before you knew you had the power and responsibility to choose your own beliefs.

We all have that guiding voice in our heads...full of shoulds, evers, nevers, always's...and it's our voice made to protect us from being abandoned, not loved and killed. Know better. Bless those thoughts and let them go.

Humans do or don't do. You're human. What you don't do, you aren't willing to do. Find out why.

If you parent yourself in your thoughts, you'll parent others in your relationships.

You're welcome.

Privilege is mine to be here...thank you for sharing your stretch of the spiral staircase.

And since MM is out there, too...I'm waving. Hullo? Hullo? Is this thing on?

((((Marshmellow))))

LA

LOL

Yup, it's on. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'm following every word.

I'm so glad you're here.

Muddle, I'm rooting for you and your marriage.

Isn't LA wonderful?

~ Marsh

I do.


No, I don't know the future, I choose an outcome and then act as if it was fate that determined it, or something along those lines that made it so, and then give myself credit for being able to predict this outcome without having wasted any effort.


This is my goal. I know that I don't know what the outcome will be, I have taken on responsibilities in life and I'm standing by my choices regardless of what my wife does. I am here to learn how to become better at this - to see where I'm sabotaging my part and change this for me - without linking this directly to the outcome of this marriage. I would like it to be useful here, I would like the M to work, but I'm not making my work contingent on this.

When we take a new belief into ourselves, we have to revoke permissions to believe as we did before...we permitted ourselves before...we do not permit ourselves to do so now.


I use the word integrity here to convey a sense of alignment (or integration) of all parts of my being towards this purpose. I have conflicting intentions, conflicting drives. This is lack of integrity to me.


I see your point. I think that I distinguish between my desire to control my environment through my filters (in order to make my world predictable and safe) and actually trying to control and manipulate my W. As I write this I recognize that this is exactly the sort of thinking that damages relationships because one's perception has a profound effect on the dynamics of the relationship - it becomes a narcisistic, one sided, fantasy relationship when one believes their judgments rather than the raw input from the other person. Focus on acknowledging and getting clarification rather than judging what the impact of what events might be. This will eliminate (or at the very least reduce the impact of) my filters. This is the goal, to break down the barrier between us that I am jointly responsible for.


Not exactly. I think there's a certain part of myself I think I should shut out or not allow to control my actions. It's the part of myself that says "it's not possible to do this, just give up" when I'm working on a tough task - the part of myself that seduces me to failure with the illusion of being right, of making the future known. I consider my greatest success those when I work through this, persisting, even when I agree with the reasons this part of myself is giving me. When I agree I'm somewhat crazy for trying to do what I'm doing, yet know I can do it, and am not going to give up trying. I remember a couple of months ago I was outside in the back of my car trying to replace the fuel pump. It was in the low 20s and dark. I had only a flashlight to see by. The fittings for the fuel line would not come loose. I kept thinking things like "I'm going to get into trouble here" "the connector or fuel line is going to break and I'm going to be up a creek" etcetera, but I persisted, agreeing with these thoughts that there was risk involved, but that I had committed to doing this job and the only way I would really fail was to give up and walk away. I stuck it out and it took 45 minutes to an hour to slip the line off of the pump (last time I did this is took a minute or two). I guess it comes down to knowing what the self really is. What part of my being is really me? Is it the watcher? Is it the feeler? The planner? The actor? I was talking more about my belief that forcing your will on things doesn't really work. The more you force something the more you fatigue yourself. If you can see the object as a team mate, seeing that it wants to do what you want it to and guide it and adjust it when it's not entirely in line you will accomplish what you set out to without the stress and tension that trying to force your way might bring. You also tend to remain sensitive. Think of driving in a heavy rain (to reuse the analogy) - your instinct is to stiffen up your muscles as you plow through puddles, trying to prevent the wheel from jerking out of your hand, squinting your eyes to see through the windshield - your whole body is tense. You exhaust yourself, and when something sudden happens you physically can't react appropriately because your muscles are tired and spasmed. You don't have access to the tactile sensitivity that you need to determine when you're at the limits of tire adhesion. Remaining calm and aware, relaxed and focused on your goal of arriving at your destination safely without allowing anxiety to overrun your thinking you will be better able to negotiate the terrain. Succumbing to fearful instinc is very often detrimental.


I think so. I think being focused on getting what you want is a good way of losing sight of all the great gifts we're given in life each day. We give up our ability to be aware when we make only the object of our desire capable of stirring up the happiness that already exists inside of us. I can't control whether the marriage makes it or not, just as my W can't. I can control my perspective and my actions, choosing to be sincere and honest and true to myself and share this with my W - which will lay the ground work for the M surviving if it does. It doesn't determine it, it supports it.


Not necessarily my highest honesty, but the fact that I admitted to feeling negative feelings towards someone is a big step for me. I told her that I didn't like what she was doing. I didn't share my deeper feelings with her though.


I say it didn't go over well because I was not happy about how well I communicated my thoughts or feelings. I feel like I left too much up to interpretation. Too much vagueness. Not so much that my words didn't result in a change in her actions. I was dissatisfied with my own communication. A big part of this is not being entirely clear about how I felt because I didn't want to feel things for the wrong reasons (I know, external direction again).


Yeah, all external direction. This is not where I want to be, what I want to guide my actions.


More regarding my emotions, but yes, knowing my intent too.


And I'm not entirely clear on it myself. I thought I acknowledges her - but I'm thinking that I didn't act specifically with the intention of acknowledging her, so it doesn't really count as such, does it? Especially when I was trying to deflect blame by offering to take care of it. I was trying to dispel the idea that she had in her head that I am lazy and I always leave a mess and I never clean up after myself and that I'll always be this way and that she'll be miserable in this relationship forever because of these issues, and this is just another reason on a long list why she needs to get out. Why can't it just be about the dishes FOR ME even if it's not for her? I think I'm accurately portraying her thinking her because these are often things she verbalizes.


I was DJing.


My honesty here is that I read all this stuff into her reasoning and made the issue about much more than it actually was about. I reacted to try and deflect this stuff (not the dishes stuff anymore, it meant much more to me than that). I felt pain because of the meaning I was putting onto the events. I tried to avoid the pain through manipulating my W (trying to get her to ease up on criticizing me, making up for my mistake, my failure - because I feel it's my failure, and I think she does too, when she is disappointed in me) that I created with my thoughts. I put pressure on myself, and then saw it as pressure she was putting on me. I give myself permission to feel better and forgive the wrongdoing if my W does, so my objective becomes getting her to forgive me. So I try and make up for it for myself, not because I sincerely want her to feel better. I believe she makes her own pain by allowing stuff like that to trigger annoyance in her. It's not up to me to do everything right in order that she might not experience frustration and annoyance. Right?


You're right about this.


Yes it is, and I know how, I just need to put it into practice. I need to get past the emotional payoff the old way was providing.

I'm going to respond to the rest later. I think there's some valuable insight here. Thanks again for sharing with me.

Oh, my, gosh...can my posts GET any longer? Sheesh. I just scrolled up to reread something and I kept scrolling. What work people put into reading my posts. Ohmygosh.

Hi, MT...I just exclaimed on your thread. I stun myself.

"No, I don't know the future, I choose an outcome and then act as if it was fate that determined it, or something along those lines that made it so, and then give myself credit for being able to predict this outcome without having wasted any effort."

Here's where I'm unclear on your conclusion...is this a realization or a method you use?

"I use the word integrity here to convey a sense of alignment (or integration) of all parts of my being towards this purpose. I have conflicting intentions, conflicting drives. This is lack of integrity to me."

Thank you for clarifying...so here's where we differ...you believe integrity is a result or a signal, and I believe it's where we begin, act from...

My integrity is in my code...I created standards I live up to, and made those same things my boundaries, which I enforce. Balance to live from. Now...when I don't hold to my standards, I amend...(and it happens)...that doesn't revoke my integrity, or change it...amending is redemption...the standards don't change...my behavior does.

What is in your code? Tell me the list you have for yourself which you don't allow yourself to do to others and yourself; and see if they are the same as your boundaries...what you don't allow others to do to you. You can also see this as just boundaries...which go around yourself, which you hold to and enforce from.

I believe this is an important choice to make...to believe integrity is a result (a judge at the end of your day) or your launch-point. One has skid marks and shame...the other has joy and power.

Conflicting intentions and drives aren't a lack of integrity to me...conflict isn't bad...it's as much a healthy signal as any of our emotions are...we purify our intent to know where stand at launch-point...teaches us how to let go of outcome, retrains our brain...and I believe, signals God to what we most want...so I purify my intent with respect when I post...not to get you to think my way, believe or praise me...I check it. When I say I will respect you choosing differently, I mean it. I may continue posting and avoid that one belief, because I can't share my stuff makin' it up. If I don't live from that particular belief, then I'm not gonna share how to...goes against honesty in my code.

I've been tempted, though...where my DJs come from...permitting myself to walk in others' beliefs, try them on, see how they fit, what I might look like...and go there...unless they were mine to begin with, I put them down. Considered and appreciated...

Purifying intent is finding your heart's desire...if you truly crave to know with clarity, then make clarity your intent...goes to your integrity...when you most want to live from respect, you set that in your intent, your choice of actions, and it greatly slows down your reactive automatics...because they don't match your intent. See how much we help ourselves?

Signals are non-partisan...they don't judge, they alert...and they don't break down what they are conveying...they just signal. To fear or love conflict is to infuse them with power they don't have...signals are information...not right or wrong...when you incorporate this belief into your system and then live from it, 90% of perceived conflict becomes information.

Part of freeing yourself through reality.

Then you'll overhear two people at a coffee shop talking...and what would have sounded like a major issue, now sounds like two people not listening to one another...and really, both expressing pretty much the same belief...or two people trying to persuade each other to believe, take blame or offense where they disagree, instead of agreeing that they each hold different beliefs (their truth, not The Truth)...and each conversation you hear will signal you about yourself...wider, with open heart, and you will open your eyes and live in abundance.

God reaches you through all senses, I believe, all the time.

Would you consider that choosing to believe you have a lack of integrity in you sounds like you were made funny? With a tiny hole or a sieve others may or may not have?

I ask because this was the kind of highest honesty I used to have...owning anything about myself was me saying, "Well, I guess that's just me and I'll have to accept it" which is the antithesis of acceptance, btw; a clever backdoor which feels like the real thing and actually rejects who I am on the backside and negates my choice of behavior all over the place. I chose to believe I was made whole, complete, marvelously by the same hands, from love, every other human on the planet. So I know when I'm saying I lack...I don't. In my perception I lack...so it will be my experience...in reality, I don't.

None of us do.

" I guess it comes down to knowing what the self really is. What part of my being is really me? Is it the watcher? Is it the feeler? The planner? The actor? I was talking more about my belief that forcing your will on things doesn't really work."

Would you accept that all parts are you? The cautioner...the one alert when you were changing the fuel pump...who feels out the future as if it's now, can be known...from fear. All of them are your villagers...and a lot were created when you chose to not be your authentic self and recreated yourself a new one, your self-image. See if the cautioner was developed so that you wouldn't get in trouble...wouldn't be bad and unloved from spontaneity (again, parts...not the all...so there were times when you were spontaneous)...

"Healing the Shame That Binds Us" by John Bradshaw is marvelous at explaining this...and giving exercises (which are fascinating) to do to own all your villagers, know your authentic self separately from your self-image and pull all of yourself together, cohesively. The book I read early on, on the advice of our MC/IC, which gave me the true meaning of acceptance, of not being born with flaws and where my flawed thinking came from.

I do understand what you mean by forcing your will...the way we were taught...rather than knowing all of ourselves is our will...no force required or intended...no punishment to make us remember and choose differently; no need to self punish or intensity scrutiny to judge success and failure...and trying.

To try is to lie.

"The more you force something the more you fatigue yourself."

Laws of emotional physics...where there is resistance, there is your own energy working against you--for a reason. Know the reason, the signal leaves...no fatiguing yourself. How we create resentment is ignoring the resistance, which goes from gas pressure to solid inside of us...and increases density into entitlement.

Which is why you fatigue emotionally, mentally, and physically when your Giver is in charge of your life. Why we need the Taker, to stay in reality, know our power and honor our limits.

"If you can see the object as a team mate, seeing that it wants to do what you want it to and guide it and adjust it when it's not entirely in line you will accomplish what you set out to without the stress and tension that trying to force your way might bring."

Can you taste the earning love in this statement? When you go against the resistance, you lose a lot and your gain is dependent on response. Like a nut that was tightened for a reason...and the reason was valid...it was doing it's job when you applied pressure to loosen it to get to what you wanted to replace...the nut resisted because it was told to hold; then you send it in a different direction. Evenly applied pressure signals it to let go...erratic doesn't...hammering doesn't...cursing doesn't (stuff I've tried). Is this what you're saying?

"You also tend to remain sensitive. Think of driving in a heavy rain (to reuse the analogy) - your instinct is to stiffen up your muscles as you plow through puddles, trying to prevent the wheel from jerking out of your hand, squinting your eyes to see through the windshield - your whole body is tense. You exhaust yourself, and when something sudden happens you physically can't react appropriately because your muscles are tired and spasmed."

Great analogy...and the whole reason I tense is to stay in high awareness so I can react faster...and it's true, my very choice negates my result, doesn't it?

"You don't have access to the tactile sensitivity that you need to determine when you're at the limits of tire adhesion. Remaining calm and aware, relaxed and focused on your goal of arriving at your destination safely without allowing anxiety to overrun your thinking you will be better able to negotiate the terrain. Succumbing to fearful instinc is very often detrimental."

I don't believe we succumb...I believe we choose...and succumbing is pre-choice...what we decided before we knew we were choosing...living on automatic.

I really think you're understanding this with a gloved hand now and not the stinging slap of right and wrong. What do you think?

"I think being focused on getting what you want is a good way of losing sight of all the great gifts we're given in life each day."

Definitely...puts us in the mindset of lack...when we constantly look at what we don't have, we abide in lack. Choosing to know that we have abundance brings more. We experience abundance.

"We give up our ability to be aware when we make only the object of our desire capable of stirring up the happiness that already exists inside of us. I can't control whether the marriage makes it or not, just as my W can't. I can control my perspective and my actions, choosing to be sincere and honest and true to myself and share this with my W - which will lay the ground work for the M surviving if it does. It doesn't determine it, it supports it."

Which is why we say about marriages...change the dance, not the person. What is within your control are the steps and your participation...when you change yourself, your steps, the dance changes. Which indirectly changes everything.

Well said.

"I say it didn't go over well because I was not happy about how well I communicated my thoughts or feelings. I feel like I left too much up to interpretation."

When you really get you're a whole person who is half of everything...this will resonate with you. You can speak your truth, your half...and you cannot make yourself understood, interpreted correctly. Humans don't have that power. Takes two...one to state and one to perceive. This is a great signal, I believe, that you didn't back then understand how much was being said and done was your perception...couldn't make yourself understand...which you can do. When you yearn for someone else to hear, perceive or view something in you differently, flip it to yourself and find out if you're sure of it in yourself.

"Too much vagueness."

"I feel angry right now" is really vague and communicates truth. Specifics aren't the answer...going for whole truth, as I believe you acknowledged you hadn't made your intent before and will now, is what you reach for--vague is a perception you don't control. I believe vague helps us to communicate...takes our partners into ourselves like a lens, clarifying focus...as part of the journey...not just the abrupt microscopically clear image we speak.

Don't overstep the journey to reach the destination. Here's a great part of communication...checking your intent before you speak..."Is my intent to be understood, or to share?"

"Not so much that my words didn't result in a change in her actions. I was dissatisfied with my own communication. A big part of this is not being entirely clear about how I felt because I didn't want to feel things for the wrong reasons (I know, external direction again)."

Great to see now, though, isn't it? Can you see how you blessed yourself, your previous self, by being who you are and acting bravely? You spoke. You now notice how courageous that was...and how dismal the outcome you perceived was...choose your results. You spoke. You know that was brave...the rest was out of your control.

And btw, I was remembering all the acts of love you did that I didn't comment on...for VDay and anniversary...where your own creativity poured out...and you enjoyed what you did, the acts you took. You tickled yourself. More great, healthy awareness there, MT. I didn't want to overstep it (it was noted and understood, just not mentioned by me, I don't think).

So when you're wondering "Who am I really?" get your parts...you tickle yourself, you yearn, you strive, you are...all.

Judgment narrows your being...all humans narrow humanity through judgment...it is the scope of perception which excludes reality to a great degree by limit of focus.

Going within widens focus...without, narrows.

Good signal when you go within with a specific and struggle to find what you're looking for...the more you widen to see, the easier your stuff is to find. And when you widen your respectful awareness going outside, then the wider your perception will be and your experience will result.

Back on the kudos for admitting your negative feeling for someone...when I asked are you safe to know yourself...I recall you saying, "Yes!" (that's a summary perception, not a quote, really)...and now tell me why you were afraid to admit negative feelings (which I don't believe in negative feelings, so I'm thinking, a certain feeling) to yourself if you are indeed safe for yourself?

This isn't a judgment...it's a clue...through you, to your relationships.

And where's the payoff in having shallow and deeper feelings? Superficial and deeper? I'm reaching for this layer of feelings...I see them as all one depth with different intensities...the ones I ignore the most, yell the most. I appreciate your clarification.

And about external direction...which comes from your permission to be directed externally...you say that's not what you want...say instead, "That's not what I want now" because you wanted it before...find that false payoff...share it with me...and when you know then...you won't react from that now...part of revoking permissions now...

It was easy for me to really get I lived externally...took a lot more time and becoming safe for myself to understand my false payoffs...see, this is why I ask, "Are you safe?" like I'm Olivier in Marathon Man, with a old lady twist. From our very choice to live externally, we attacked authentic self...murdered ourselves...not safe. Not safe at all. We did this for years...so culling out where we fear (reasonably so) our choices to go within, where we label our signals good and bad, positive or negative...we sort, label and defy our wholeness...we are not safe.

Until we choose to be.

Part of the journey. Not a judgment.

"I believe she makes her own pain by allowing stuff like that to trigger annoyance in her. It's not up to me to do everything right in order that she might not experience frustration and annoyance. Right?"

In that whole paragraph of self-discovery, what I heard was you seeing you do a lot of what you believe your W does...you've got a lot of stuff in common. When your focus is on her (and it wasn't in your post, btw), then you see the same stuff you do result in her in a downspin. Miserable. Yet, when you have the same pattern generating your stuff, you believe by looking on the positive side, yours is a great way to live.

Doing the thing with different, personal results. What we're doing here is looking at the pattern of perception, mapping, distraction, widening our focus to get it all...and leaving the outcome alone entirely. For later.

And I heard you ask was...if she's these are her signals to her, about her...then why have you been making them about you, making your choices from them? Am I close? Your method to "manage" your emotions previously, to change them, was to shift your perspective...like self-manipulation...instead of getting the signal itself by tracing it.

In order to manage, you gotta guess the source...and your W is right there, doing the same...naturally, within easy reach...so if you manage your emotions, you'll manage hers.

Even if both are total fantasy.

Reasonable to me...I lived that way. Fantasy was my succor...and it FELT like reality...truth...the hard facts.

Which is why I ask you these questions, hand you back your stuff filtered through mine (with ownership)...that's how real fantasy can feel...from not even being aware we choose. And our focus remains consumed on being chosen.

True compassion lies within this journey...a well of self-love locked and barred for decades, reopened. Worth everything to me. I hope for you as well. Freedom is gained through opening and closing your own doors.

And knowing one from the other, which is truth.

See to know, not to judge. Here's a hint to that false payoff...judgment feels like...and then fill in the blank. Use your creativity, give license for hyperbole...go nuts and reach for all the feelings it generates at different times, different situations, and every thought.

Then trace it to the beliefs it comes from. Share with me.

This is like waking up in a dark room with a blindfold on, manacled to a chair and tracing your predicament, where you find yourself, as if you were just born, with no clue what's real and what isn't, what holds you and what you hold...not simple to you, chained to the chair...totally simple to an observer with a flashlight or nightvision.

Don't go into the observer's mind...stay in your own.

LA

You're not kidding! I truly appreciate your taking the time to share with me. I have very little time this morning, but I wanted to respond to a couple things here and then mention something from last night.


It's a realization of a method that can be a trap for me. I guess it's a way of justifying not doing something I don't want to, rather than owning my choice not to do it. It's that external locus of control thing again, feeling that I "should" do something and believing that I'd better have a good excuse not to.


I disagree that my belief of integrity has to do with signals or results. I see it more as a state of being - you demonstrate integrity in your actions, you act with integrity. Integrity, to me, is acting with agreement between all parts of your self. It comes from your code, but it's not your code. It results in signals and results that should be equally integrous, but are at that point open to interpretation. The integrity is in acting in accordance with principals and values, without self doubt or second guessing or ulterior motives. The Webster's definition:

Main Entry: in·teg·ri·ty
Pronunciation: in-'te-gr&-tE
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English integrite, from Middle French & Latin; Middle French integrité, from Latin integritat-, integritas, from integr-, integer entire
1 : firm adherence to a code of especially moral or artistic values : INCORRUPTIBILITY
2 : an unimpaired condition : SOUNDNESS
3 : the quality or state of being complete or undivided : COMPLETENESS

So being complete while adhering to a code of values pretty much covers it for me. I'll have to get back to you on the code bit, because I haven't defined or refined it yet. It's still something that lacks integrity <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


I agree yet disagree. I think that conflicting drives are demonstrated in actions that lack integrity. This maybe signifies a lack of consistency on the code level, or it may just mean there's competition in that moment over which one of your takers gets what it wants. For example, if my code were to say I am honest, and that I value the life of others, and I'm in a situation where someone is held hostage and I'm asked a question by the captor that will determine whether the hostage lives or dies and the honest answer will kill him, my values are at odds. Yes, there's got to be some hierarchy to the code, and yes, moral judgments can not be made on a single plane, but either decision (to lie or not to lie) will result in acting in dischord with my code. Are you still acting with integrity? No, there's conflict and dischord - a lack of completeness or togetherness. The very nature of the situation has corrupted the code, yet in that situation I would be acting in accord with whichever value I saw as more important at the moment, so I would be acting with integrity there - in this situation, clearly the life of another person is more important than whether or not I lie, and you'd really have to have it out for me to fault me for lying.


I can really relate to this. It's something Marsh and I talked about. I saw this as education, learning, trying to expand my understanding of the world. I sort of understand why this isn't the best thing to do, the intention is to judge rather than truly understand.


Do you believe in the omnipresence and omniscience of God?


No, because I don't believe that it's something you have or not in your essence. I believe it's a property you actions take on (and yes I view thoughts as actions as well), not a trait of your being. If you don't have it in one moment you may in another.


Yes, I do the acceptance thing too. I think it is a way of denying a quality entirely. I believe that there are positive and negative qualities to everything. If you label something about yourself as negative, you disown it. By labeling it you think you've owned it, you've given it a name afterall, but I think you've discarded it. Devalued it. There IS value to everything, even if it doesn't seem applicable in the moment or situation. I think acceptance is seeing the pros and cons of everything and aligning all of these characteristics in such a way that their useful properties are recognized. Nothing is wasted or discarded. Disowning parts of oneself is self destructive. You spoke of lacking, and I think that in the same way that we only fail when we give up, lacking implies that only a specific solution will work. Humans are amazingly adaptive and creative creatures. One of the major things that scientists say seperates us from animals is our ability to use tools. Tools are not limited to something specifically designed to do a job, but they are anything that supplements our physical bodies. I think in this day and age we forget that, we have to unscrew something and we don't have a screwdriver so we conclude that we can't do it - we're lacking what we need. The reality is that the coin in our pocket might just do the job. We couldn't do the job because we gave up, not because we lacked the tool (which is of course what we attribute the failure to). We grow accustomed to seeing certain things done a certain way - politicians have a certain charisma that you and I might not have, but to discount our ability to make friends and influence people because we don't possess this is to give up. Something can almost always be substituted for the ideal tool. Those traits that we disown might have utility here, but because we've disowned them they cease to be options to us.

Ok, now on to last night. I plan to continue with your monster post later.

I got home and put up water for pasta for my son. I went downstairs to say hello to the family. W appeared a bit down, and she had had a frustrating day with our son. She called me at work a couple of times telling me how naughty he was being and that he would not listen at all. I told her that I put up dinner for him and that I wanted to figure out dinner for us. I told her that I was interested in eating the leftovers from the pseudo gourmet meal I cooked on Sunday (french country chicken). She hadn't even tasted this yet, and I asked her if she was interested. She told me that she wasn't. She said to me "I guess I'm not eating then." I asked her why and she said that I had made my decision already, and that meant she couldn't eat because she didn't want to eat anything we had in the house. I told her that I hadn't made a decision, simply stated a preference. I told her that I was willing to run out and pick up a dish for her and if something appealed to me at that restaurant I might get something there too. She told me that she didn't want to do that because then she would be indebted to me. I told her that I didn't think of it that way. She started getting upset and told me that I didn't see it that way now, but I would almost certainly hold it against her in the future. As soon as I got angry, I would. I asked her how she was able to see into the future. She said that this isn't the future, it's how it is, and she said something about how I'm the only one that doesn't see this. This is where I started repeating what she said, trying to understand rather than refute. I felt my instinct to argue with her, and to invalidate her. Instead I repeated, I said that I understood that she didn't want me to go out and get food for her unless I was getting food myself, because she felt that it would indebt her to me if I did. She agreed. I shared with her that I didn't think anything of the sort, but that I preferred to eat what was in the fridge because I had put a lot of energy into making it and didn't want to waste it, and it was good.

She and I butted heads a bit, but whenever I wanted to argue, I acknowledged and mirrored. It felt REALLY good to do this, because I never felt threatened when I did this. I felt empowered because I recognized my freedom in doing this. I chose my actions rather than feeling forced to act according to her actions. The outcome wasn't ideal, however. She said to me a couple of times that I had made my decision and that it didn't leave her any options. I told her that I was down there trying to plan something with her, I hadn't made up my mind, I simply had a strong preference. I was there to negotiate. I had stated my desire, she vaguely stated hers. In the end, after about 45 minutes of this (also getting our son to bed), I ended up eating the leftovers. She was angry at me and told me that I was torturing her. One time before I went upstairs to care for our son, I told her that I was going upstairs and when I came down I wanted to know what she wanted. Otherwise I would just eat what was there. She would not tell me what she wanted. So I ended up eating alone. She ended up angry at me. She had not stated what she wanted.

So, it was a mixed bag. I was encouraged by my actions, but discouraged because I felt that there was so much positioning in the discussion. I saw my WW playing the victim, making all of her choices contingent on mine, not speaking her mind and telling me what she wanted. In the end she hurt herself by not taking care of her need to eat, but blames me for it. On the other hand, the fact that this is what I see signals to me that I was doing something similar. My WW later told me that I was trying to make it look like I was doing everything right. But she told me that I hadn't sincerely offered to go out and pick up dinner like I had the night before. I told her that I had offered, but she said I hadn't offered the right way. I was sincerely trying to make sure both our needs were met, yet I didn't really know how to respond to her. She seemed to have an unspoken agenda, and because I wasn't responding the way she wanted or expected me to, she got frustrated. In the end of the evening she called me insane and told me I was driving her crazy. I said ouch. It helped to do this as well, to acknowledge pain. She told me to get out of her face. I said goodnight (to which she responded by thanking me for not telling her to have a goodnight in a simpering voice). I went to the gym without feeling amped up.

Of course they are all you (or me) but the trouble begins when you start to side with one of the voices over another (who's doing the siding then?!?!). I believe all these components of our being are internalizations of influences, and rather than see them as opinions, beliefs, thoughts, etc, I view them as my essence. Different, conflicting essences rather than differing perspectives with different intentions.


This sounds great and I'm going to pick it up.


Yes, it's self betrayal that causes the resentment. It's ignoring, rather than acknowledging, that nagging feeling. You might still be willing to do what you will once you've acknowledged the source of the nagging feeling (sometimes I think fear of changing the outcome leads me to ignore these red flags myself - but it doesn't necessarily). I have trouble seeing the taker in a positive light. I see it as entitlement. I know this is not how it's intended, but I view it this way. This probably has a lot to do with why I don't exercise it in myself, why I stick to the giver. I think I have some sort of shame associated with it.


Somewhat, but I think of it more as a lack of desperation, of neediness. Acting on the nut in desperation leads you to fight it, see it as your enemy, and then you likely get frustrated and act on it erratically and in less than efficient ways. Not needing something allows you to use tact, to be sensitive, because you're able to tune into what you're doing, to listen to the feedback given by the tool (is the wrench slipping? Is it rounding the nut?). If you don't hear these warnings you'd likely end up with far more frustration, far more desperate. Releasing yourself from the need to get something accomplished, from the worry about the outcome, you allow yourself to focus on the moment, to appreciate the task, the wondrous way in which the human body works to accomplish a task, the way the metal smells, the sounds around you. And when you're listening, when you're aware, the task will tell you how to do it, almost intuitively. Your mental overseer has done its part in determining the task - it must step down to some degree in order for it to be accomplished properly. I think the more ego you have involved in performing a task the less effective you'll be.


You're right - this choice of words shows my propensity to see the absense of choice in my world, seeing myself as passively engaged in the world.


Somewhat. I don't think the right and wrong thing was really that much of an issue with me, but there is a reduction in the charge I feel in all of this though.


I never thought of that before - trying to be understood is trying to control the other person. I can only try and be as accurate with my words as I can be and hope the other person is trying to understand them. I do see now that my signal that someone else isn't understanding can be interpretted to cue me in to the need to listen. I did this last night and in doing so I gave up (I prefer to say freed myself because it actually felt liberating) the desire to control my W, to get her to see things my way, to understand why what I was saying was right. We may not have resolved our conflict, but I felt very different coming out of the situation. If I can consistently do this, I'm sure my W will feel differently to. Heard, understood.


Thanks for acknowledging this. I often feel inept when it comes to these things. My family never did much gift giving, so consequently being in a marriage with someone that values gifts because it was a big thing in her family, I feel inadequately prepared, under scrutiny. I have a lot to overcome here, so when I do give despite the pressure, I think it means something. I enjoy it and want to do a lot more of it.


The act of judging intends to label, to reduce the essence of a being or situation to a bottom line, a simple categorization, something easy to understand and dispose of. A human is not simple. There is much to understand in us and of us. To look inside just to label and discard of parts ignores the humanity of another as well as the person doing the labeling. Doing the opposite, truly understanding and appreciating the unique attributes of another does justice to ones own.


You know what, I have a nagging feeling about this that it goes back to my childhood, to beating up my younger brothers. I realized that this behavior was not good, not appropriate, not the way I wanted to act. But I think I did this because of the intense "negative emotions" that I had. So in order to stop the behavior I buried my feelings, the cause of the actions. I think I had a lot of negative emotions growing up coming out of the trauma of having triplet brothers take over my world when I was 3 (it sounds almost dumb to say this, but my mother insists that I had a difficult childhood because of it), and I never learned to deal with these feelings. I am ashamed of feeling anger, because I did shameful things because of my anger. So as I grew up I forced this feeling out of the scope of my personal acceptance. I didn't want to see it in myself, and a lot of my history that's associated with feelings such as this have disappeared. Mood memory. Memory linked to feelings - you can't remember very well unless you're in that mood, and conversely, I think I blocked out the memories because I didn't want them to inspire the feelings.

This plays itself out in my relationship now because I'm unwilling to get angry, a perfectly healthy emotion, because of the significance I've given it. This handicaps me. Another nasty side effect here is that I'm willing to forget wrongs that anger me because I don't want to feel anger, so I don't have an accurate picture of how I feel about my wife and my relationship. My choice to focus on the positive might be limiting me because it's actually reactive to a need to avoid the negatives. Make sense?


Good question. I think people are multidimensional. I see plenty of reason to question this, but I'm not sure what the answer is.


People in relationships are usually at the same mental health level. So seeing one's spouse as crazy is not helpful or true, because they are just as crazy as you are. I think you're right about the way I choose to look at stuff. I think this plays itself out in our relationship, I'm happy to be with this woman even though the relationship is lacking, even though I feel mistreated at times. She is not happy even with things she wants to be happy with. Am I deluding myself into thinking I'm happy just because I choose to view it that way? Is she making herself miserable because of her perspective? I personally believe that you can truly be happy with nothing in life, yet totally miserable with all the possessions in the world. The circumstances don't make the person. Yet one of the problems my W has with me is that I can accept anything.


This is important, isn't it? What's it mean to me to be chosen? What do I permit myself when I'm chosen that I don't when I'm not? If I do the permitting, which I do contingent on external cues, than what stops me from changing the beliefs that these contingencies are based on?


It feels like possession of absolute truth, undisputable law. Security. Omnipotence. Safety. Distance. Objectivity.

I'll get back to this and the question you had about my code when I get a moment.

Thanks.

Just a quick update: I just talked to WW and asked about her day, then asked about whether she had any thoughts about dinner. She told me what she wanted immediately "just to avoid what happened last night happening again". I told her that I appreciated her assertiveness, and she laughed. I truly do appreciate it, because it makes me feel like we are on even ground as opposed to me feeling like she's dependent on me. Good stuff.

MT,

"It's a realization of a method that can be a trap for me. I guess it's a way of justifying not doing something I don't want to, rather than owning my choice not to do it. It's that external locus of control thing again, feeling that I "should" do something and believing that I'd better have a good excuse not to."

Great realization...very important to freedom...can you begin to listen to your thoughts to detect when you might do this...even over the tiniest thing...and say, "I choose not to" to yourself? Then write down what feeling comes? No justifications or shoulds involved..."Here is something I noticed" and if you can't act on it without resentment, choose not to.

Thank you for the dictionary definition of integrity...I find it funny how they will define a word not tell you how to get there...made words so mysterious to me, like this one.

I also found the origin interesting, given the "integritas"...and that there was a separate word, "dignitas" which came to mind.

"1 : firm adherence to a code of especially moral or artistic values : INCORRUPTIBILITY
2 : an unimpaired condition : SOUNDNESS
3 : the quality or state of being complete or undivided : COMPLETENESS"

Entirety.

Seems to me the way to have this noun is through honesty. Abject, entire, unyielding, highest honesty.

What do you think? Any other way?

And I like self-doubt...I know that hesitation is a double-check, an alignment control in myself...too much, and I sink...not enough, and I'm not aligned to my intent.

Leaves room for prayer.

"I agree yet disagree. I think that conflicting drives are demonstrated in actions that lack integrity. This maybe signifies a lack of consistency on the code level, or it may just mean there's competition in that moment over which one of your takers gets what it wants."

Interesting, multiple takers...I hadn't considered that. An adult Taker and an inner child Taker?

"For example, if my code were to say I am honest, and that I value the life of others, and I'm in a situation where someone is held hostage and I'm asked a question by the captor that will determine whether the hostage lives or dies and the honest answer will kill him, my values are at odds."

I stopped quoting you here because this analogy doesn't fly with me...I haven't been in this situation, can't imagine being in it...same for "If God is all-powerful, can he make a rock he can't lift?" stuff. When I see God, I'll know the answer.

I will tell you in everyday life...honesty comes first in my code...inside and out. And I don't allow "does this seem honest" to invade because that's self-deceit in my book. I don't define myself as an honest person...I hold myself to being honest. I only define myself as human...and it's an honor.

How I made my code...I looked at what I craved most...because it was what I was least giving...Honesty, Appreciation, Acceptance, Respect, Consideration. And yeah, they overlap. They are all parts of love. They are also my boundaries.

They are now my reality.

And I don't fault people...for lies, greed, rejection, disrespect, or inconsideration. This is my code. What I do is point out where others' choose.

"Do you believe in the omnipresence and omniscience of God?"

Yes.

"Yes, I do the acceptance thing too. I think it is a way of denying a quality entirely."

Interesting statement...I think you're really in tune with our self-deceptive practices...do you know what's behind them? And are you consciously looking for your disowned and lost parts of yourself? You sound very aware of them...I was wondering. Some of them are in your WW, btw.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"If you label something about yourself as negative, you disown it. By labeling it you think you've owned it, you've given it a name afterall, but I think you've discarded it."

I really love how you put this--yes!! Would you consider something for me...when you name something, you create it. So when you name a part of yourself, it's like you define and contain it, a separate entity...and what you're saying is left it by the roadside.

This exercise I have in mind takes those discarded parts and brings them home...by addressing them as individual parts...so I really believe you said what I've desired to say for a long time...and very well. Thank you.

"There IS value to everything,"

Oh, I agree! "Everything matters" is how I've believed this.

"even if it doesn't seem applicable in the moment or situation. I think acceptance is seeing the pros and cons of everything and aligning all of these characteristics in such a way that their useful properties are recognized."

Here we diverge a tad because I use acceptance as my key to faith...I accept what is without pros or cons...a statement, an act, something shared...from respect, as is. When it isn't my own...and I take it with faith to understand entirety, not useful properties (everything is useful to me, because everything matters). In this way, I am open to seeing the middle, not the all or nothing, where life takes place...and I live there.

"Nothing is wasted or discarded. Disowning parts of oneself is self destructive."

We did it all the time when we were little...tore out pieces of ourselves...and grew up feeling not whole.

"You spoke of lacking, and I think that in the same way that we only fail when we give up, lacking implies that only a specific solution will work."

I don't believe in failure. Humans do or don't do by choice. There is no success or failure, cumulatively...no evidence of love...even to the extent when I want so much to communicate something and someone doesn't get it...neither of us failed. There's a reason outside my scope...like lost posts and calls dropped (besides T-Mobile) and it's usually a formation, a time thing.

And again, I don't look at solutions anymore...90% of my life, at work, home, anywhere where I am, it is for understanding...not to solve. To be. To be present. The other is aligning my part...so when I spoke of lack...addressing life for what I don't have, then I experience not having it. When I address it (like you said early on) for what I do have, I experience abundance.

Daily.

And I very much believe in giving up...in the sense of not doing. It's a big part of respect. Absence of reaction is an action, in my book.

"Humans are amazingly adaptive and creative creatures. One of the major things that scientists say seperates us from animals is our ability to use tools. Tools are not limited to something specifically designed to do a job, but they are anything that supplements our physical bodies. I think in this day and age we forget that, we have to unscrew something and we don't have a screwdriver so we conclude that we can't do it - we're lacking what we need."

I love this creative link to awareness, not judgment. When I used to reach for judgment, it was because I didn't see the tool I needed, when I needed it and in the way I wanted it. I experienced severe deprivation...and it was me doing it. When I had our most basic tool in my hand...the ability to search for what tool I didn't have in my pack...and it was this permission to seek which led me here. Amazing how we have to give ourselves that permission.

"The reality is that the coin in our pocket might just do the job. We couldn't do the job because we gave up, not because we lacked the tool (which is of course what we attribute the failure to)."

See, I don't see it because we gave up...because we convinced ourselves we could predict the future, that we would fail, that we couldn't...instead of in the present to be aware, not going where we have no power. Taught me how crucial being present and aware really was...no false security in it.

"We grow accustomed to seeing certain things done a certain way - politicians have a certain charisma that you and I might not have, but to discount our ability to make friends and influence people because we don't possess this is to give up. Something can almost always be substituted for the ideal tool. Those traits that we disown might have utility here, but because we've disowned them they cease to be options to us."

Interesting you chose charisma...a judgment is in that...labeling someone for something...defining, containing and examining...up to external judgment to exist or not.

I believe what you see in others reminds you of parts of yourself...what catches your envy (and has been disowned) and what riles you.

Thank you for sharing your story of dinner...respecting she can get whatever she wants, that she is capable is essential to freedom. Reinforces you are capable, respectful and can give to yourself what you want. Big congrats on feeling the difference...not those reactive have to's and shoulds which embroil and enmesh.

And I like how you separated your actions from outcome.

Until here:

"The outcome wasn't ideal, however."

The however signals you had expectations of outcome...that's not letting them go so that your freedom is potent and real, filling.

"She said to me a couple of times that I had made my decision and that it didn't leave her any options."

And when you repeated, "You believe I've limited your options, is that correct?" or did you enforce a boundary? "When you tell me what I'm doing rather than what you perceive, like made a decision instead of an offering, I hear that as you stating a fact instead of a perception."

"I told her that I was down there trying to plan something with her, I hadn't made up my mind,"

See where this is refuting?

"I simply had a strong preference. I was there to negotiate. I had stated my desire, she vaguely stated hers."

And you repeated for clarification, even if it was, "I don't know my desire" which IS clear...our expectations don't like it.

"In the end, after about 45 minutes of this (also getting our son to bed), I ended up eating the leftovers. She was angry at me and told me that I was torturing her."

"You feel tortured. I want to understand."

"One time before I went upstairs to care for our son, I told her that I was going upstairs and when I came down I wanted to know what she wanted."

This is parental. Instead, if you have a time limit, state it. Share it. Own it.

And know if it's a time limit for decision, understanding or results.

"Otherwise I would just eat what was there. She would not tell me what she wanted. So I ended up eating alone. She ended up angry at me. She had not stated what she wanted."

Did she share she wanted your help to discover what she wanted? That she didn't know?

"So, it was a mixed bag."

Highlighting for judgment. Doesn't communicate what you felt, thought or perceived to me.

"I was encouraged by my actions, but discouraged because I felt that there was so much positioning in the discussion."

No freedom in positioning...can you accept you've embarked on a new journey, not crossed the sea yet?

"I saw my WW playing the victim, making all of her choices contingent on mine, not speaking her mind and telling me what she wanted."

See, here's where that bravery comes in...you don't do this in your head. You share it. While it's happening. "I'm hearing you making your choices contingent on mine...is that why I'm hearing you say my decisions leave you limited options? Do you feel attacked right now?"

"In the end she hurt herself by not taking care of her need to eat, but blames me for it."

She can offer blame--learn not to take it. Not yours. Did she say she hurt herself?

"On the other hand, the fact that this is what I see signals to me that I was doing something similar."

Oh, awesome!

"My WW later told me that I was trying to make it look like I was doing everything right."

Interesting with the "right"...right/wrong, pro/con, positivie/negative I've heard from you. I had this in my marriage...I am not mocking. I was stunned to see the extent of a power struggle instead of a love struggle going on...and yes, for 15 years, my husband and me, would rather have been right than married.

"But she told me that I hadn't sincerely offered to go out and pick up dinner like I had the night before. I told her that I had offered, but she said I hadn't offered the right way."

See the refuting? It's not honest...you're not bringing reality. "Are you saying you don't believe I was sincere or are you saying I was not sincere in my offer?"

Very important. "You weren't sincere!" "Stop. That's abusive."

This could have been an important conversation. You both have been handing back fantasy as if it's reality...one of you is trying to stop. Stop.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"I was sincerely trying to make sure both our needs were met, yet I didn't really know how to respond to her."

Hey, that's why I'm here. When you are really set in "I" statements and listen and repeat, you'll know what to share...not respond with.

There is no abuse in sharing, "I don't believe you'd really go out and get me what I wanted when you already have something here you want."

That's TRUTH, honesty and IMPORTANT.

"She seemed to have an unspoken agenda, and because I wasn't responding the way she wanted or expected me to, she got frustrated."

Can you hear your own frustration in past conversations exactly this way? Like in the going to your parents house discussion? No bash...takes two to do this dance...and you're changing your steps.

"In the end of the evening she called me insane and told me I was driving her crazy. I said ouch. It helped to do this as well, to acknowledge pain."

Big congrats!!

"She told me to get out of her face. I said goodnight (to which she responded by thanking me for not telling her to have a goodnight in a simpering voice). I went to the gym without feeling amped up."

Why not another ouch after she said to get out of her face?

Now it's time to be with DH...I'll get to your following posts tomorrow. We were without phone/fax/internet today at work...which was just LOVELY (not).

LA

I know so little, and I've acted even less from this knowledge. I know that in this conversation it was probably upwards of 90% where I was acting on bad habits that negated our connection. I tried to force my will rather than relaxing and trying to be aware. I felt threatened. This is exactly the reason I need to celebrate my success in finding my center and choosing to be aware and listen. It's what I focus on because I want it to grow. Beating myself up for the "bad" stuff only keeps me buried by it. I want to nurture this "good" stuff!

I have said before that I'm more rational, my W more emotional, but I don't think that's really true. It's becoming more and more clear to me that I am driven by emotion in our conversations, it's just that the tool at my disposal happens to be my reason - or should I say weapon? We are much more alike than we are different. To embrace the "differences" in my W, I embrace them in myself.

I don't have time now to really respond, but wanted to thank you for your wonderful insight.

Congratulations on upping your self-honesty and seeing where the ruse of judgment impeded your growth...you'd labeled yourself more rational, her more emotional...a great example of how powerful our ability to self-deceive really is...

Thank you.

Thank you for seeing something in you and not bashing yourself...getting more in touch with how we mislead ourselves and self-punishing.

You often feel threatened in connection. Judgment does that, also. We hear it, even when it's not there (and often, when it is, from others) and react to it...the signal grows stronger and stronger...because it's self fighting for you, your recognition...that there is no truth in judgment...

Beating yourself is worth than remaining buried in it...it suffocates your soul...kills our essence...rejects self and then we our life becomes an experience of rejection.

And we're doing it.

When your fear jumps up and you detect a threat...tell yourself, "No one has power over me. Not to define or kill me" (Which is why I don't go into hostage scenarios and feed my old brain.) "I am whole. I am hear." "I am."

Mantras for truth, MT.

Thank you for sharing...really touched me tonight.

LA

Today I frustrated myself because of my W's lack of self honesty. We were talking in the car about money, and she started really talking in absolutes saying that we couldn't figure out a functional budget, because if we could, we would have already, and everytime we talk it forces a fight. I really took issue with her saying that we "can't" as if it were a fact. We're not disabled, we're smart people, we can do it. Just because we haven't got something in place doesn't mean we can't. But this refuted her beliefs. I didn't want to refute her beliefs, but I also wanted to challenge her because she was stating her opinion as fact. She then started with her mantra of "we just don't work". I let it go.

She started talking about control again, and how she thinks I have all the decision making power. I told her that I could see her frustration. I wanted us to be equally involved in this, and I wondered if she had any ideas (my opinion is that she doesn't assert herself and make her will known - but this sounds like a blame statement rather than an observation). She said that there was no way that we could figure this out.

Whenever there is an issue such as this, the underlying thing we seem to be arguing about is whether we can make our relationship work. I feel like no matter what the issue is, whether it be figuring out what to eat for dinner or how to spend money, we are debating whether we can work as a couple. My opinion (which I have no doubt clouds my perception of actual reality) is that she doesn't want us to work, so she avoids any opportunity to successfully accomplish tasks or planning, etc. I have no power over how she thinks about her abilities (she very often will say she can't do something), and consequently how she thinks about our ability as a couple to do things. I can only maintain my only "can do" attitude, but I really wish she wouldn't give up on herself and on us.


Thanks for listening. It's always nice to feel that my existance impacts someone else's life in a meaningful way, expecially while I'm constantly being reminded that I'm being blamed for the person I most love in this world's misery. Almost tragic, another romantic label that takes me out of uncharged human and implicitly labels me.

I found myself seething today. I really felt disgusting - mostly about her and her mother. I made myself feel this way, I'm sure of it, but I need to acknowledge it. I frustrated myself because I allowed myself to expect closeness and affection from my W (of which I've gotten none - at least nothing overt, nothing like a hug or a kiss or even a touch - in so long). Last night I picked up some food, and when I was on the phone I told WW that I would see her soon. She said "I look forward to it" - which I believe meant that she looked forward to the food, because she was hungry, but I allowed myself to think, for a moment, that she was actually looking forward to me coming home. I guess I'm getting pathetic now, because I keep thinking that it would make everything better to have someone want me to come home because they wanted to spend time with me. I just keep feeling that she never will. Sorry, I shouldn't say feeling, rather believing. I'm trying to know the future. And this right her is exactly what she doesn't want to have anything to do with. This miserable, pathetic, completely emotionally dependant person. I need rather than want. It drives me to the point where I'm doing for someone that's not doing anything for me. Why do I continue to exist in this totally onesided relationship? Trying to do the right thing, trying to do what's best for our son (who's walking around saying "mommy's always wrong and daddy's always right" all the time now - this is another of WW's mantras that comes out of her mouth when she interprets something I'm saying in her filterspeak, rather than trying to understand what it is that I'm saying, and I correct her). I'm selling myself short because I don't think she has any good reason to change right now. She's got me doing my best to meet whatever needs she allows me to, the way I would if she were engaged in the relationship, but she primarily tears me down. It makes it look like I enjoy being treated this way because I keep the cycle going. What's in it for me?

Sorry, rant over. I guess I'm frustrated with my actions, my position, and my expectations. I need to take a fresh look at what I'm really doing with my life, because I'm not satisfied with what I'm getting. My taker is starved (as well as my libido) and I'm starting to make myself crazy about it. Why do I make this into something so dramatic?

This is something I often try and hold myself too, but I'm not sure I'm at the point where I can be honest enough with myself to accurately guage this. I often say to myself that I have agreed to do something so I am not allowing myself to resent, but the tricky thing with resentment is that I can unknowingly build it. I thought I used to live without much resentment, and I'm still not sure what the real truth is, but I'm starting to see more and more resentment in me.


I agree. No other way I can see.


Ok, I see your point here - I guess anything in moderation. I have always felt that hesitation is something that more often than not brings about disaster. I guess this comes from living in a big, fast paced city. A hesitation can mean the difference between life and death. Hesitation displays a lack of internal clarity of intent. I'm crossing the street, you're a driver, I hesitate, you interpret my hesitation as me backing down to your intimidation. You might run me down because you thought I gave way. However, I haven't been able to bring this to an emotional level yet. Not sure its place is there.


Yes, hesitation can be inclusive, social, spiritual. Not an attack on self, as in self doubt bringing about judgment, but humility, celebrating the fact that we are not omnipotent.


I tend to see more than just the two. I think there are different centers for different planes of needs. This is again something you disputed in talking about my propensity to see different levels of feelings. I think I choose to see more complexity than there actually is because it makes me feel more complex, like there is a lot hidden for others to understand, to make myself valuable.


I guess one of the real flaws in that analogy is that I used the word honesty to discuss truthfulness. You can be honest without being factual.


Sometimes I do know what's behind them. I think this is one of the things that attracted me to my W, the fact that there was so much self deceit in her that she doesn't seem to challenge or even see. Then again, she's alos a bit more honest with herself than I might be. Go figure, how can she be both extremes? The same way I can, I guess.


I'm sorry, I misstated what I meant here. I don't think the particular value of anything determines its overall value because this is all relative to the task at hand. This way everything has value, even if you haven't found a situation for something to stand out as functional.


This is natural, to some extent. Cells divide in order to multiply. Muscles tear in order to grow. Yet none of these parts are discarded. I think the same is true of emotional growth. It's the disowning in an attempt to discard that's harmful. Destruction of beliefs, habits, etc., that's all functional and healthy.


Giving up is important too - you have to know your limits.


I see it backwards. I see the convincing of self as a justification of the choice to stop. A choice that is usually steeped in self doubt and lack of self esteem, which is the reason we justify it. Because the choice stands as proof that our doubts of our abilities are true because we believe them enough to act on them.


I agree with this.


Expectations or a preference?


I can't make her believe that her perception of events are not factual. I have told her in the past that just because she feels something doesn't make the cause she attributes it to real. She says I make her feel hurt -doesn't mean I'm out to hurt her. She makes the leap often and attrubutes her reactions to not only my actions (which I feel is debatable) but to the intentions she thinks I have. Discussing this leads to an argument because she believes that my actions display my intentions, she doesn't agree that she is projecting her beliefs onto my actions and calling them my intentions.


I don't think I said it in such a parental way - in fact it was something I was cautious about. I wanted to draw a boundary line because I wanted to eat and I felt that she was dragging her feet, preventing me from eating.


Nope.

Gotta grab lunch. I'll be back.

MT,

I'm in mucus blankland right now. Dangerous posting territory, or so I normally think. Don't drive while drunk; or post while sick. I read your response and my brain swirled. Then I got a God-nudge, so here I am.

"Today I frustrated myself because of my W's lack of self honesty."

Get deeper here...these are signal statements...when we are frustrated, angry, hurt from others' stuff.

You wondered if this was your expectation or a preference...you want her to give highest honesty...and all you can control is you giving it...living from it. So if you will take your reactions to her statements not as being about you from her, but sitting quietly in signals in you about you...you may begin to unravel something which has bound you for decades.

And I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm remembering this very thing. The incredible frustration, helplessness, powerlessness in not being able to control my DH's level of honesty. Majority of his were by omission...so I dug deeper and deeper, scarring him, I swear.

I think you missed a most important belief here...one which sentences you for life, and it really doesn't.

"We were talking in the car about money, and she started really talking in absolutes saying that we couldn't figure out a functional budget, because if we could, we would have already, and everytime we talk it forces a fight."

Revoke your belief that a fight can be forced...or that someone can fight with you without your consent. Your clarity is independent of others. It's totally yours...where peace really comes from...non-reactive clarity.

Your W has a belief system based on evidence...so did you...you've since (IMO) seen where evidence isn't applicable to our stuff...our thoughts, feelings, beliefs, perceptions and perspectives. They are what they are right now...and if we continue looking for evidence of love, safety, comfort...we will disappoint ourselves and not experience those things...because they exist, they are, without evidence, at times. Because they come from inside us...not others.

I'm fearing incoherence right now...just wanted to insert that.

"I really took issue with her saying that we "can't" as if it were a fact."

Oh, I remember this so very well..."Can't" "Incapable" "Won't happen"...

And the only respectful choice I had was to remove those from my own vocabulary in regards to anything human. I could not remove them from his...Oh...wait...sharing that I'd removed them and why...sharing my stuff..."I feel frustration right now because I am hearing my trigger words, "can't" "incapable". I'm hearing you nail down the future and my fear is going through the roof right now. I know humans don't have that power. I see you as having it, though."

This went to solving/fixing/abusing in me, MT. I would stay on the money issue because it was like actions I could take or not to solve...and miss SHARING my stuff. Felt like going off track...and the more I resisted, the higher my frustration level went. Until I began sharing...letting go the reins of directing interaction, conversation, discussion...with my intent on sharing my stuff, with myself and my partner...I was stuck. Trapped in powerlessness/uselessness and feeling very done to.

"We're not disabled, we're smart people, we can do it. Just because we haven't got something in place doesn't mean we can't."

Refuting gets you here...to idiocy of mind through judgment. Gosh, I don't think I'm saying this well. Any human can share and be shared with...doesn't take smarts. Takes intent to know and be known...which doesn't include changing others' minds or hearts...they do change through sharing, not our doing.

And look at you! Not refuting felt like self-betrayal:

"But this refuted her beliefs. I didn't want to refute her beliefs, but I also wanted to challenge her because she was stating her opinion as fact."

Okay...question...challenging others...or enforcing a boundary? Others have total freedom to state their stuff as fact...you cannot stop them, only yourself. However, sharing your stuff, how you feel mostly, when others do, is you NOT betraying self. Not refuting either. Acknowledge, "I used to know a false payoff inside me when I would state my opinion as fact to you, W. I would feel temporary power, knowledgeable...rightness. I remember. I was wrong. I feel a deep urge to state that we do work, we can if we choose to...and I know that's the old me. Fear and pain put me right there again."

Freedom through ownership, MT. I promise. The more you own, the freer you are. A dichotomy I pray someday to explain with ease, and, without sinus pressure.

"She then started with her mantra of "we just don't work". I let it go."

Self-deceit 101...when you really let it go, you won't come back to it...your wording is important for trust self through highest honesty. You didn't refute, and you didn't acknowledge...which is the way of respect. "I hear you believe deeply that we just don't work. I'm hearing you don't like who I am, is that correct?"

When you get to your bravest point, life will change. Use these conversations to sharpen your focus inward...to share what signals you're getting...makes you on a team, not against an enemy.

"She started talking about control again, and how she thinks I have all the decision making power. I told her that I could see her frustration. I wanted us to be equally involved in this, and I wondered if she had any ideas (my opinion is that she doesn't assert herself and make her will known - but this sounds like a blame statement rather than an observation). She said that there was no way that we could figure this out."

Share with her how much you have felt controlled in your life...with your parents, siblings, friends...others before W. Find in you those fragment statements..."You're a math guy, not a word guy." (I have no imagination when I'm sick--I need your help for these statement strands we all have, limiting statements.)

"Whenever there is an issue such as this, the underlying thing we seem to be arguing about is whether we can make our relationship work."

That's your perception...what you listen for...as you saw, I got a the evidence belief...proving our lives...I got feelings of futility because either of you don't believe you really change, grow...or you grow out of each other. And I still heard the rightness issue, not the reality one. You are HAVING a relationship. You are married. You are each choosing to be married...to connect.

"I feel like no matter what the issue is, whether it be figuring out what to eat for dinner or how to spend money, we are debating whether we can work as a couple."

Change your perception. You get to choose it...this DJ is why you are experiencing this as reality...eliminate it. When she says it, she's experiencing it...outside of your control. My point is your perception is within your control.

Clean your slate, MT. Clean hers...root out your expectations and hold them up to your light...remember where they come from, see if they are applicable now, if that is what you want as your reality right now...

"I hear you are saying you don't believe our relationship works. All I really have is right now, right here, and I choose to be here with you."

"My opinion (which I have no doubt clouds my perception of actual reality) is that she doesn't want us to work, so she avoids any opportunity to successfully accomplish tasks or planning, etc."

Change your perception to not knowing if she doesn't want your marriage to work...to not knowing. Get off task accomplishment and onto sharing...and being okay not knowing what you sincerely do not know. That's ownnership and respect.

"I have no power over how she thinks about her abilities (she very often will say she can't do something), and consequently how she thinks about our ability as a couple to do things."

When she says "can't", listen and repeat, "I hear you are not choosing to <blank>. I respect your choice."

When you wipe out all your DJs, you may really hear what she's saying about herself...not about your relationship. I have this perception she is craving acceptance of her being...and you're a lot of doing...and she feels failure constantly.

Does that resonate in you about you at all?

"I can only maintain my only "can do" attitude, but I really wish she wouldn't give up on herself and on us."

This is your focus leak...going into her...your inlet, which sucks you in like a riptide...stop going there. Keep your wants about yourself...for yourself. "I choose to and I choose not to" and validate your own beliefs through knowing them. Do you believe humans change? Do you believe anything can happen, far beyond your capability of imagining what can or cannot happen? Your own complexity, you mention, allows you to be comfortable with what you really don't know...and focus on knowing when you get there.

"Thanks for listening. It's always nice to feel that my existance impacts someone else's life in a meaningful way, expecially while I'm constantly being reminded that I'm being blamed for the person I most love in this world's misery."

Do you do that to you? Do you blame yourself? Do you listen to yourself? Do you feel swells of gratitude for sharing with yourself? Being there to listen and acknowledge in yourself?

"Almost tragic, another romantic label that takes me out of uncharged human and implicitly labels me."

How can a label do anything to you, as a human being, unless you put it on yourself?

This was the constant way I betrayed myself...and felt betrayed by others.

"I found myself seething today. I really felt disgusting - mostly about her and her mother. I made myself feel this way, I'm sure of it, but I need to acknowledge it."

Acknowledging and then tracing...and sharing.

That's the formula.

Sharing through ownership. "I felt myself seething today. I found my focus on you and your mother. I felt entitled to affection, acknowledgment, attention and acceptance. I traced this to evidence, again. No evidence of being loved. Which means I stepped over you are choosing to be here, to share with me. And I found I wasn't appreciating myself...acknowledging my acts of love, giving myself attention and acceptance in the way I wanted it...because I crave it from you."

Sharing goes a really long way to getting to yourself in another's presence. Affirms, confirms...does not betray. Not sharing betrays. Go figure.

"I frustrated myself because I allowed myself to expect closeness and affection from my W (of which I've gotten none - at least nothing overt, nothing like a hug or a kiss or even a touch - in so long)."

Entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. Can you see how it's a downward spiral to go wayward? Focusing on lack gives us that experience. You're not bad or wrong. You're human. Where your thoughts are, there is your treasure....which means you can literally treasure lack.

"Last night I picked up some food, and when I was on the phone I told WW that I would see her soon. She said "I look forward to it" - which I believe meant that she looked forward to the food, because she was hungry, but I allowed myself to think, for a moment, that she was actually looking forward to me coming home. I guess I'm getting pathetic now, because I keep thinking that it would make everything better to have someone want me to come home because they wanted to spend time with me."

Here's where you are self-punishing...she's not punishing you...you are. She is there...she is looking forward to you being there...please appreciate, keep your attention on and acknowledge your valuable presence. Then you'll see hers as valuable, as well. She's there! She's communicating with you. She keeps doing this, by choice. Acknowledge her choice and your own. That's reality...the rest is fantasy.

"I just keep feeling that she never will. Sorry, I shouldn't say feeling, rather believing. I'm trying to know the future."

This is your inner child perspective...we go there from fear of lack, abandonment, rejection...pain and fear. Even the fear of these things gets us there. Not real. Not reality. And can you see where your thirst to know the future now feeds your fantasy and hear it in her words?

"And this right her is exactly what she doesn't want to have anything to do with. This miserable, pathetic, completely emotionally dependant person."

WRONG! OUCH! ABUSE!!! Ohmygosh...I'm twitching.

"I need rather than want. It drives me to the point where I'm doing for someone that's not doing anything for me. Why do I continue to exist in this totally onesided relationship?"

Because you continually discount the other person's side...which makes it one-sided. It isn't. Can't be. One-sided would her be gone...divorced you, off to be with OM or anyone else who sees her as new, today...right now. Clean slate.

I believe you're choosing to grow...not perfect, achieve more, accomplish your life...I see you craving to LIVE it. Right now. With high awareness and from love...your own choice to love. And handing yourself these large signs which say, "This is why you don't feel loved, cherished, acknowledged, appreciated and accepted. When you're unwilling to do this for others, you won't do them for yourself. And you sure as heck won't see where others are doing these things ALL THE TIME for you!"

"Trying to do the right thing, trying to do what's best for our son (who's walking around saying "mommy's always wrong and daddy's always right" all the time now - this is another of WW's mantras that comes out of her mouth when she interprets something I'm saying in her filterspeak, rather than trying to understand what it is that I'm saying, and I correct her)."

In your own head...would honestly rather be right or be married? Here's where I flip over into your W's stuff...because I had a perspective that if my DH told me I was right about something, no matter how tiny, it was orgasmic. So whenever he would do that, I would make those sounds and we would laugh. I was starving for external validation, rightness, a place to stand in my quicksand of emotions...and often felt invisible, ineffective, annihilated.

When we began the communication exercises, I broke that old belief in me that to be right was to be significant. To know and be known meant I already was significant. Through listen and repeat, I took on flesh...not rightness, sharing. And I heard "You're wrong to feel, think, perceive, believe or view" constantly. Wasn't being necessarily said all the time...not listening to my stuff inside and out felt that way...I was set on hearing what I'd heard before...and believed fully it was coming from DH, when most was coming from myself.

"I'm selling myself short because I don't think she has any good reason to change right now. She's got me doing my best to meet whatever needs she allows me to, the way I would if she were engaged in the relationship, but she primarily tears me down."

Your W is stuck in misery...in herself...when it reaches a level which hurts more than changing, she will. You have no control over that. You can't change her. By meeting her ENs or not...by LBing or not...what you can do is focus on you, your own stuff, and share...share...share...not to teach, to be known...up your awareness to see she is as capable of changing as you are...you hit that painful spot which felt like change or die...stay there...grow from it. Share what you feel, as is...without bashing yourself.

Listen and repeat her stuff. See it as separate from you, your control...acknowledge her being...so you will acknowledge your own, MT.

"It makes it look like I enjoy being treated this way because I keep the cycle going. What's in it for me?"

"It makes it look" is a signal of self-image, not self. A HUGE DJ. Listen to your Taker...we react to what we aren't doing for ourself and our Taker gets ticked off. YOU tick it off each time you lie by omission or directly, self-betray and self-punish. Taker can focus this on her, when it's you. Up to you to discern the difference.

Which is why sharing as your highest commitment tells your Giver and your Taker the truth...you are worth being honest for; you are worthy and valuable.

"Sorry, rant over. I guess I'm frustrated with my actions, my position, and my expectations. I need to take a fresh look at what I'm really doing with my life, because I'm not satisfied with what I'm getting."

I believe I may sound very much like a blamer...making it all about you...because that's where your power is...and when you're not satisfied with what you're giving...you feel the same as with what you aren't getting.

Unending balance exists.

"My taker is starved (as well as my libido) and I'm starting to make myself crazy about it. Why do I make this into something so dramatic?"

For me, upping the drama was getting my own attention...which was really tough, as I was pit-bull focused on another's throat. Here I was, trying to crush pain into my DH to make him feel what I felt...instead of just feeling it myself. Oh. Really? Really. When I began to hear when I raised my voice (even in my own head), use hyperbole...I was signalling myself to my own inattention. What does the affection symbolize? Stop at just the lack of affection and we learn nothing.

Which is why I revert to the moment our MC said, "What you crave most, you're least giving." That usually stops my spiral immediately.

So I pass it on to you. Rant or know...rants are signals you're not sharing all of you...may feel as if someone else is not sharing all of them. You are more than enough, MT. This isn't about you making yourself better than anyone...set your perspective, your goal, to coming home to all of yourself...an abundant self...already there...waiting.

LA

I hope you're feeling better today. LOL about posting while sick!


I guess it frustrates me when she's hiding truth from herself, and this very act seems to be eating away at our chances. But I'm doing exactly what you said I was doing, and what I advised my brother about last night. I've been playing in a band with him for several months now, and I have noticed that he is really reserved when playing, as if he's trying hard not to make mistakes. Then afterwards, he tries to explain why he made mistakes. I told him that I thought he would be better off not focusing on the mistakes, because that puts all the attention there, but either to focus on what you want to do or what you did right that you'd like to do more of. Here I am focusing on why I believe things aren't working, looking for signs, looking for evidence and validation. Why? Have I gotten complacent in my efforts to focus on doing, giving and being?


What's this?


Look, this is where I'm really frustrated. I don't believe things happen unless people take action. Action is a result of choice. No situation forces a fight, and even if discussing the subject has resulted in fighting in the past, it's not the subject that causes it. It's the choices, in the moment. The way we each choose to deal with our frustration. The way we allow ourselves to use the other person. I believe that she sees herself as a very passive force in her life. She's not aware of all the choice in her life. She sees her feelings as brought about by events or actions other people take. Even her speach empowers objects rather than herself. So of course a topic would produce a fight. Of course my frustrating action would produce rage in her. This is a major place where we clash. I am focused on making better choices, trying to be more functional in my life and relationships while the choices she makes are more about getting herself into a situation where the forces around her are more benevolent. And what if we see things differently? Well the very fact that she looks at things this way puts me in an unreasonable situation. I can't meet her expectations because I can't "make" her feel any differently than she does if she doesn't cooperate with me. And what am I doing? Am I doing my part in cooperating with my W? No. I don't trust her to love me. I still see her as the enemy. I still put on my armor, even thought I consciously try and leave it off. Wearing armor is proof that I see myself as vulnerable. Strength is accepting vulnerability and not trying to hide it behind armor, and I'm not doing this. I see my wife and even my home as hostile. I'm always expecting attacks.

Yesterday evening, WW called me at the office. She immediately attacked me about dinner. On Sunday evening I made a suggestion that we plan on the calendar who was going to cook, this way we could distribute it. She agreed, but we never got to it. When she called she was angry that I hadn't taken any initiative to plan for the evening. I did something that I'm not happy about, I blew her off by not answering her question - which was about accepting blame for the situation and how I screwed her over - and rather asked her how her day was. She quickly came back saying that I was ignoring her. I didn't like the way she was coming at me, and I was in the office so I didn't feel at liberty to talk freely. I put myself under a lot of pressure. Anyway, the conversation was mostly her being upset and me trying to figure out what we could do. I offered to make pasta, which she rejected. Then she ended up hanging up on me. Oh boy, she must have had a rough day, or something. She really let me have it for what? I called her a little later and said that I would be leaving soon. We talked a bit about dinner - she told me that I would have to fend for myself. Ok, fine. Still a huge attitude. I got home and "acted as if" my family was happy to see me. I don't ever go home expecting a negative reaction because I know my expectations will likely bring it about. Well, she actually was alright. The attitude she had on the phone was virtually non-existant. She gave me the remainder of what was on her plate, so I didn't really need to fend for myself, and she talked about her day. A couple of times our son interupted and she told him that she was talking to me. Even after he was done, she sat at the table talking with me. She and I had a hot drink after I ate, and still she shared. It just goes to show that expectations set based on your own (possibly even good) judgment can be wrong. I had every reason to expect her to be nasty to me when I got home, and had I acted defensively I bet she would have been.


Evidence is subjective. We use facts to support what we want to believe. If it doesn't fit, we ignore the facts. The answer almost always lies within, especially when we're looking for external validation the most. I'm doing that still, despite the fact that I don't believe it's the answer.


Rest easy, you are understood.


This is where I feel really powerless. I perceive, and I'm unable to communicate what I perceive because we're worlds apart. Because we don't share the conceptual bases of the belief matrix that's in play. This is an excuse, and not really the reason. I don't really understand things as they happen in a way I'm able to share. Sometimes I'm so dense, like the fool on a tv show that doesnt' recognize that people are making fun of him until hours later when someone that loves him explains it. It's not really that bad, but I need time to interpret before I can share. This takes me out of the present and really allows myself to let loose over it all rather than dealing with the truth in the moment.


So you believe that focusing on things allowed you to avoid the personal? Sharing?


I'm fixated on being capable, and in so doing I'm ignoring the sharing of feelings she's doing, however well she's doing it. And because I refuse to step out of this rigid perspective I am unable to see what she's saying, rather I'm seeing her as wrong because she's saying something that's not true about her abilities. So even though I believe there's not really right or wrong, I'm still putting myself in a position where I see things this way. I thought I was beyond this.


Yup. I think when I start to see concepts being questioned - their validity, their rightness - I need to take that as a cue that my emotions need attention.


Yeah, but what then? What about when she says "Uh, yes. This is just another sign that proves you just don't listen to me."? How do I respond beyond this, beyond the knowing? I guess I'm afraid of this, of really acknowledging this.

Gotta run again. Hope you're feeling better - I really do appreciate that you took the time despite how you felt to write to me. I'll take up the rest when I get back.

My post made me dizzy.

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Still not well...however...I did string two things together

Your What's this? about something you've done all your life...my DJ...was in regards to this:

My quote: "This went to solving/fixing/abusing in me, MT. I would stay on the money issue because it was like actions I could take or not to solve...and miss SHARING my stuff. Felt like going off track...and the more I resisted, the higher my frustration level went. Until I began sharing...letting go the reins of directing interaction, conversation, discussion...with my intent on sharing my stuff, with myself and my partner...I was stuck. Trapped in powerlessness/uselessness and feeling very done to."

What I meant to say is that when she says "this is about money, spending, etc." then you accept the discussion is about solving an issue...instead of hearing that she's sharing a perspective...leave money out of it. The deeper belief at work is like you said, gathering evidence to prove a belief...that you guys just don't work together...not really about solving money stuff. Hear the sharing already there.

And you share...

Look at what happened last night...and you did that! You harnessed your expectations and stayed open...ohmygosh...no pattern repeated and SHE was different, too.

"So you believe that focusing on things allowed you to avoid the personal? Sharing?"

Absolutely...if my DH said he had a problem with work...I solved it...I was the shoulda, woulda, coulda woman. Very disrespectful...until I heard him clearly say, "I want to share, not be fixed." Up until then, he would get defensive, because he heard my suggestions as attacking...and I was...with disrespect. He's my equal, fully capable...listen and repeat.

And you were listening to her...with her in presence and presence of mind...sharing a hot drink, her dinner, time and attention...did you thank her for this? "Thank you for sharing your presence, your thoughts, who you are with me tonight. Being with you relaxes me, and I really feel at home with you. Thank you."

Okay, overboard...your words as specific gratitude...and owning you have amped your expectations and had them fulfilled before...and you didn't tonight...that's sharing.

Last night.

I'm having a time thang with the congestion.

Now, to the big guns...Conflict Avoidance. CA. You are not alone or nuts. You fear others' anger...you fear your own. You don't like frustration, pain, fear, sorrow...lots of previously defined negative feelings...which are now signals. You've set them as "don't wants" for a long time...worked around not having them, or letting them go, pushing them away or down or left in a drawer...now you're open to them because they, like happiness and the rest, are signals.

Just signals.

Okay, so frustration is one which you still have permitted to react to...what is frustration to you? Is it anger and disappointment, mixed together? Is it more like rejection and anger mixed? It's a mid-emotion...signalling two others...do you get it when you feel rejected, dismissed, misunderstood, defensive...try to break it down for me and you, 'k? My frustration may not be the same as yours...and I rarely feel it anymore, so I'm not as in touch with it as I once was (and I believed it was my air!).

"Look, this is where I'm really frustrated. I don't believe things happen unless people take action. Action is a result of choice."

I believe I'm sounding contrary without intending to...I remember my life of effort...effort equaled love...more effort, more love...more importance, respect, appreciation...

No effort (action), no love.

I missed half of life not seeing what wasn't done...my DH didn't pick up his socks...and he didn't yell at me...he was a CA which meant I wasn't important enough to confront...to share with...no action, no effort = no love.

That was my perception. I had to get where I scaled back on the effort stuff...in order to respect and accept. Yet craving the acceptance and respect, urged me to more effort. It was my own spiral, MT...not theirs. Not them doing.

In the middle, there is balance...and it's where life takes place...I had to get where DH's presence was acknowledged and appreciated, and I couldn't get there until he was gone...will this take your W being gone for you to get? I don't know any other way...because this was mine. I'm asking you to see the effort in presence, presence of mind...attention, acceptance, appreciation...by doing and saying it yourself, so you can let in all she does and does not do...like the silent treatment for eight days without a word...does she do that?

I want you to breathe in response to a frustration signal...and while you slowly inhale and exhale (like four beats each)...think what is it that is frustrating...are you really asking, "Am I being loved? Am I a doormat? Am I?" Find out what your real questions are...because her perceptions, perspective will not break your marriage.

Yours will.

"No situation forces a fight, and even if discussing the subject has resulted in fighting in the past, it's not the subject that causes it. It's the choices, in the moment."

And when you choose to not fight...to listen and repeat only...as you've already experienced...then there is no fight...and you've learned how much your expectation for conflict results in conflict...got that nailed...so now be open to repeat...stick that hopper firmly on your head...until you meet your goal to know, not to judge. Not to own what isn't yours. Then you will hear her sharing...and you will share. Choose to share, anyway. Not react, act.

"The way we each choose to deal with our frustration."

What do you permit yourself to DO when frustrated?

With emotions, we state, don't demonstrate. Stating is ownership and the signals die down because they're received. Don't have to be reacted upon, taken out...nothing. Stated. Owned. Acknowledged. Understood. Traced.

"The way we allow ourselves to use the other person. I believe that she sees herself as a very passive force in her life. She's not aware of all the choice in her life."

That's a DJ...get respectful. The more you see and share your choices, then you'll be safe to be shared with. I know you're working on eliminating DJs...get to the ones like these ingrained in you...where you categorize people. I did this to my DH...and I filtered out A LOT of stuff which was contrary to my evidence gathering. Get open. Get respectful...listen to know and not judge and THEN see what your perception is.

Listen and repeat with choice helps the listener and the speaker.

"She sees her feelings as brought about by events or actions other people take. Even her speach empowers objects rather than herself. So of course a topic would produce a fight."

No of course here, MT...there is no fight in sharing. There is listening without judgement...if you listen with it, you fight. Without it, you know. Your choice.

"Of course my frustrating action would produce rage in her."

What does this mean? She reacts to your frustration like you react to others' anger? Does she react to everyone's frustration in this manner?

"This is a major place where we clash. I am focused on making better choices, trying to be more functional in my life and relationships while the choices she makes are more about getting herself into a situation where the forces around her are more benevolent. And what if we see things differently? Well the very fact that she looks at things this way puts me in an unreasonable situation."

Unreasonable is a judgment. You aren't put in anything unless you choose to perceive it that way.

MT, what about love? What if you want to make better choices to thrive from acts of love you do...to act respectfully because that's who you really are? What if she wants to feel loved and love well? If that is your goal, and the other is hers, you can get there together. You won't possibly if you keep seeing her with old eyes, torn down, crossing signals for you through perception of her.

"I can't meet her expectations because I can't "make" her feel any differently than she does if she doesn't cooperate with me."

Are you honestly saying you CAN make her feel different with her cooperation?

"And what am I doing? Am I doing my part in cooperating with my W? No. I don't trust her to love me."

That's your issue with you. Evidence gathering negates love...says, "If she acts...I feel." The very mixed up, enmeshed way you both have with each others which works and works until one of you stops...then it falls apart. Acting from your love, results in you feeling love and very loved. Because it's truth, MT. Pure truth. As long as she remains a reflection of you, your "self" through her eyes...you will live a reactive life based on possible response, "She acts...I feel." Erases self, self's power, existence and limits. Annihilates us. And we do it to ourselves.

"I still see her as the enemy."

I still choose to see her as the enemy.

"I still put on my armor, even thought I consciously try and leave it off. Wearing armor is proof that I see myself as vulnerable. Strength is accepting vulnerability and not trying to hide it behind armor, and I'm not doing this. I see my wife and even my home as hostile. I'm always expecting attacks."

Routine reactions...lacking conscious choice. When you choose to put on your armor, OWN it. "I'm choosing to act defensively...I feel attacked, negated...and I choose to believe she's doing it, not me doing it to myself." See where armor fails when it comes from the inside?

You are not bad or wrong, MT...this is why we call it growth, not fixing. We grow from changing our beliefs, not just controlling our actions. Think about why we would live externally...go back in time...when it was safer to live through others than go directly from ourselves...if we were defective, we were a bad place to live. We moved. Only humans can't really move out of themselves. This is moving back in...getting to those core beliefs.

Here was one of mine.

"Good humans don't do harm." Childhood belief.

And I had another one from adult experience.

"Humans do harm."

Which meant in my system, Good humans weren't human, were they?

Was it reasonable to think if we were good others were protected from us? How self-slashing was that? And to be good was alien to being human? I lived from those beliefs...I spiralled down and down, trying to make life conform to my conflicting beliefs...

Because I didn't believe I was human.

I believed I was defective. I did harm. Great harm. I was the human wrecking ball...my self-chosen moniker. Ouch.

Self-image is what I created when I was really young to be safely loved and not killed. I knew in my late teens I had three big beliefs..."It's not the duration, it's the intensity." "Theory of emotional relativity: People feel different things differently." And "If they like me, they won't kill me."

Clarifying my beliefs...Humans do and don't do. Humans connect and disconnect. Humans choose.

I began inserting choice into all my sentences where I'd skipped over, intimated, implied and slipped past myself. This helped GREATLY in revealing my beliefs to myself...ownership leads to freedom...through clarity.

Seeing yourself attacked is TAKING BLAME...only you can control blame...either take it or see it being thrown...cannot actually hit you without your permission. Defensiveness comes from owning what isn't yours...reaching for blame and offense...and then perceiving the other person is doing it.

It's their opinion. Not The Truth. Their truth. As they see it. Right now.

You can respect, acknowledge and not take blame. You can choose to stop believing in it altogether. There's what we own and what we don't...and it doesn't vary. It is what it is...when our perception gets blurry, we blur the lines. Reverse that...make your lines clear to clarify your perception.

That's how we choose it...and check your intent while you clear...if you are going for good, better, best choices from wanting to be good, better or best...then what are you striving to be safe from? If you are going for respectful choices to acknowledge TRUTH...respect is acknowledgment of God's design for humans...with your intent to live in reality, then act from respect, directly from your belief, not the frustration you may feel from years of response-based choices and proving they work when they work, and fail abysmally when they don't.

The never worked.

The other person chose. Every time. You chose...they chose...you didn't make them...they didn't make you. You experienced it that way. I know. I remember. Didn't change reality.

Find your love, MT...you are equal to everyone...we all are capable...from choosing who we love and acting from our choice...delighting in our acts of love...which you know because you held this joy through gifts recently...do it with sharing, respect, highest honesty and valuing what is instead of tugging/tearing for what isn't right now.

When you think DJ thoughts about going home...change them to open and trusting. You are a presence in the universe; your presence matters in your home, with your children, your wife, yourself...and you do ripple around the world. Their presence matters, too. Equally. Essentially. You are essential. SHE is essential. Get your significance, you'll get hers...

I want you to begin to discern when you are being attacked and when you're just feeling attacked. You've identified the prepatory thoughts you have anticipating attack...like an automatic door you walk through daily, four times a day, you expect it to open, to react, as it always does...until it doesn't. I'm asking you to not treat humans as doors...they can change in the flash of a light-bulbed ephiphany...they can change their belief and their actions, and then fall back, until they find that light again.

You know this. You live this. I had to do this with rejection...my life was defined by who was rejecting right now, and from where...and my perception saw rejection where it wasn't...I would feel rejection (like you feel frustration) where I wasn't being rejected at all...because I set my filter to glean, align and file routinely, four or five times a day...and I met my quota...made it up if I had to...

"And what am I doing? Am I doing my part in cooperating with my W? No. I don't trust her to love me."

Good to know! Have you shared that very important truth with her? As yours...not her doing it...YOU don't trust her to love you. Trust is built through actions and a choice to bestow...half and half. Very much what you're wrestling with actions fixing life...evidencing...proof.

Can you entertain the possibility that your wife loves you, anyway? Whether you trust her to or not?

I'm not saying you're not hearing attacks...I'm asking you to put them in the hopper on your head for now and only allow them to enter your brain as opinions...through rephrasing, repeating for clarity..."I feel frustration right now...it's coming from my belief you're saying I screwed up, I'm at fault, full of blame...is that what you're saying?"

Without tone...supplication? Checking yourself because you are HALF of every interaction, connection, relationship. You are. Nothing will change that, ever. Your half is yours. Spec and the beam, dude.

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My love for myself widened into an ocean when I got how much I cut off others and their acts of love from me...because I had to be loved in my way, when I wanted, how I wanted, or I couldn't feel it.

Which is why I felt defective...only it LOOKED like I chose men who were defective...not filling the holes correctly.

I was my enemy. Know yours. Your wife calls you...that's presence and connection. That's fact. She called. The rest are your valid opinion...and hers. Somewhere in the middle there are two people who have been crushed with pain and crushed their pain into each other, in their own way...given a variety of permissions...when there is NO permission given in God's design.

You choose to make her your partner or enemy...your nuturer or killer...your choice in your mind. Think back to other female authority figures growing up and find out how often you vascillated between those two...when you felt fear and pain...or when you felt joy and intimacy...knowing and being known. As is. In totality.

And figure out that this woman is there, your wife, in your home, to connect with and work through in totality. She's there. She's talking. Listen to know and not to judge. Listen and repeat with filter, if you need to...not to react...know it as your greatest act of love...to be present, willing to connect and to NOT hear attacks...but to discern them from expected ones.

To free yourself. Enrich your experience so you can thrive.

"This is where I feel really powerless. I perceive, and I'm unable to communicate what I perceive because we're worlds apart."

Again, she perceives therefore you are unable to communicate. OUCH.

"Because we don't share the conceptual bases of the belief matrix that's in play. This is an excuse, and not really the reason. I don't really understand things as they happen in a way I'm able to share."

You caught yourself in a lie...excellent. You really can believe very different things...my DH hated humans except an elite few...and he said one day, "I wish I didn't hate people. I wish I could love them like you do."

He believed all humans were bad.

Now, he doesn't. He's working his way there. Same route.

"Sometimes I'm so dense, like the fool on a tv show that doesnt' recognize that people are making fun of him until hours later when someone that loves him explains it. It's not really that bad, but I need time to interpret before I can share. This takes me out of the present and really allows myself to let loose over it all rather than dealing with the truth in the moment."

Okay...see no evil, feel no evil? I like to make people laugh at me...in stand up, it's a plus. My chosen perspective is that they are laughing with me...whether they really are or aren't. A lot of fear comes from self-image...the way we want to be seen by others because we live through their eyes...reasonable fear...unreasonable self-image. You have an authentic self. You created your own self-image from hands holding raw fear. True self shines...it IS light...self-image is paste and tears.

You might remember eating both of them at one time. Go back there...feel what it was like...when anger felt like the end of love...disappointment was a lash to your skin, and abandonment meant death...and who you pasted together to be safe, loved and not earn abandonment...is NOT you.

When I asked are you safe enough for you to go inside? You said yes. Are you? Can you see where this wasn't evil, this creation...it was from love for protection...and it was as a child...?

Not bad, wrong, stupid, silly, dense...none of it. Essential. Gets you from there to here, right now.

You never used anyone...they chose and did not choose...so did you. You don't use others to unleash your stuff on...you chose to DJ, AO or SD...and then they chose.

If you give to get...most likely, you paired up with a person who believes you give to get love, and doesn't like anymore than you do the backside of that belief, which is tit for tat.

Your essential belief matrix is the same. You're changing yours...she may, also. When fantasy finally falls down. there is reality...where it was, all the time.

Have faith, MT. A great choice...you don't have to earn it. Choose to have faith in yourself, in your wife, and in God. They are real. They are present.

And now look...you already got all of this...

"I'm fixated on being capable, and in so doing I'm ignoring the sharing of feelings she's doing, however well she's doing it. And because I refuse to step out of this rigid perspective I am unable to see what she's saying, rather I'm seeing her as wrong because she's saying something that's not true about her abilities. So even though I believe there's not really right or wrong, I'm still putting myself in a position where I see things this way. I thought I was beyond this."

If you're doing that which you don't believe, look to a belief which remains leftover. A signal to HELP you, MT...not to bash you. Find the payoff in believing she's your enemy, that she's attacking...find that false payoff and free yourself.


"Yeah, but what then? What about when she says "Uh, yes. This is just another sign that proves you just don't listen to me."? How do I respond beyond this, beyond the knowing? I guess I'm afraid of this, of really acknowledging this."

Really acknowledging that her opinion is <blank> terrifies you? Oh, that's right...she reflects you...which works very well when we're in Phase I of a relationship and all they reflect is great...until Phase II when we begin to show real selves to make a real connection, and when our mirrors reflect dissatisfaction, we don't want them as mirrors anymore. Think carefully about this. If we choose our mirrors in order to live externally, how are now in charge of our lives? When the mirror reflects what we don't want, we are attacked by the mirror...and we replace them.

Instead of getting rid of mirrors and connecting with humans...which means, we are no longer reflected, yet we exist.

I am.

No mirror echo.

I am.

She can feel not listened to...and you repeat and she confirms. My answer has been, which holds to my code of highest honesty, "Good to know." Affirms what I'm doing...knowing, not judging. Acknowledges I've been shared with...and to me, that's great to know. And be known. Both parts....under my control.

Whew.

Good to know.

Don't say it if you don't mean you benefited from being shared with...you can say, "I hear you." "Thank you for sharing." "I appreciate your thoughts (time, perceptions, beliefs, perspectives)." Something true for you. Stated from truth whether she hears it as your truth or not. For you, by you.

She can see you guys right now with zero chance of making it through recovery...and you can recover, anyway. You both can get to thriving...you have to go first. Because you're here and you have your personal and marital recovery as your goals.

Lucky duck, MT.

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LA