MT,

I swear, your thread is so meaty, I feel overwhelmed by the smorgasboard. I promise to go back to what I wanted to address and ran out of time and then you put more meat onto the buffet.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

"Yes, I'm doing this on my own. I acknowledge that. If I didn't care what she thought about me, whether she held a grudge then I wouldn't concern myself with how my actions might impact her feelings."

Really? That would the tit for tat living...not the living from your code. See, when you chose not to act based on possible response, then you respect and understand her stuff...yet you're aligned to your code. You're concerned about impact in the way that says, "You're making me crazy and angry," which contains no truth or respect...dosen't meet code...your very choice to state your truth, "I feel confused and attacked. I feel anger when I perceive you as saying I don't have common sense. Am I hearing you correctly?" Then you are being true to yourself, no attacking back, which is concern about her being attacked, no in control of her feeling attacked.

Oy.

Through respect, I authentically cared about my DH's stuff...and stomped tromping on it. That was authentically loving him through respect. Didn't mean I wasn't concerned about his stuff...means I knew it WAS his stuff...the other way, the acting from his stuff WASN'T authentic concern or respect...it was me choosing to make my choices based on his possible reactions.

"But this is something I acknowledge in the moment too. I don't really resent her for creating the fear. That she's holding a grudge against me because of feelings she created but attributes to me doesn't create my fear. She's not responsible for it, and therefore I don't blame her. I believe I'm sufficiently detached to acknowledge in the moment that I'm not responsible for her feelings, even if she doesn't.

But yet,"

I felt a "but" coming...and you delivered it double...lol...I used my own "but's" to remind me that whatever I said before my "but" was invalidated when I did this...used it as a signal to go back and double check the first half of my sentence to see if it was what I was really choosing to believe, or just wanted to and didn't.

"my actions don't necessarily agree with my intellectual understanding. And this is what's so difficult about making conscious changes in this regard. I still react to some degree to her emotions."

I don't see choice in here..."I still choose to react to some degree to her emotions." You have the choice to react, or to act. Standing still doesn't seem like a viable option for you...it is...which is why you have that shiny, large hopper on your head. When you put her words in it, listen and repeat...do not allow them to come into your head until you KNOW you won't take them as the truth...something you react to...

What a minute...I said this was one example of where you take her stuff and hold it over your head...and then I say put them over your head in a hopper. Hmmm. Could it be this visualization which is off? Has my analogy run into a roadblock?

"That she still tries to push my buttons leads me to believe that she's still getting some payoff for doing so."

Ahhh...your beautiful half is blinking neon...this DJ...that she's doing something to push your buttons contains no ownership that you FEEL your buttons pushed. Half and half. Does she say, "I'm telling you this to get your riled up into old patterns. Am I succeeding?" Until you hear her stating her intent, do not assume it. Your O&H is to share, "I feel my buttons are being pushed right now...my insecurity, my routine of feeling of attacked and harmed. Would you please clarify your intent for me?"

"That I'm still giving her something for her efforts. Some sense of power and control."

All fantasy, MT...and you know this. You're in that middle part of change where you're looking for evidence you've changed...and each time you feel like you slip, you think you haven't...very natural...coming from decades of judging yourself...you're gonna be looking for evidence. You're not nuts, wrong or bad for doing this...habitual reactivity...and you are actively training yourself out of it...takes time and practice. Not perfection.

Are you making those O&H ownership statements? "I just heard you say <blank> and I flashed on the time we talked about <blank>."

Sharing, not combating, deflecting--awareness and sharing.

Could it be that you haven't granted yourself this permission because you believe that just can't be enough? Not the solution which solves everything? Not worth it, too vulnerable, she doesn't deserve it or you aren't safe doing it? Each time you do this, choose to share instead of defend, you're telling self you know self is strong, whole and complete. No power leakage...stating, "I'm feeling really reactive right now. I'm taking your feelings as guides to my own from habit."

I really like your analogy to substance abuse. At it's core, it is the same.

Because substance abuse isn't about the substance...it remains about the person.

"I'm not sure I can really articulate this properly, but what I see is my WW wanting to feel certain ways and not wanting to feel other ways. The feelings are viewed as an end in themselves. Mood manipulation. The same payoff a substance abuser is looking for. The same drive. There is such a detachment from feelings that they are not looked at as signals, as information. Been there, done that."

This is a common ground acknowledgement to me...that you feel connected to your WW's stuff through having done this yourself...sorted out good from bad feelings...judged your life and actions from feelings...and reacted to them. Am I hearing you correctly?

"I totally agree with this. It's interesting, though, because WW refuses to own her emotions."

I'm highlighting your automatic focus shift here. And I can see it because I did it a lot. You were responding to a quote about you...only you...and you read it, agreed with it and immediately put WW into it...when it was about you, for you.

"We've had this conversation before about feelings and she says my actions create her emotional reactions. It gives her all the reason in the world to see me as the enemy."

Did you read "Getting the love you want" by Hendrix? This is how humans work...it's in our design. When we fall in love, stay in it and marry, we are seeing our partners as part of ourselves...the caregivers who will be our teammates, in our corner, for life. When those same attractive qualities flip over, over time, and we resent, we make those same teammates into our enemies from our greatest betrayal...we couldn't pick our parents...we do pick our partners with traits of our parents...to work through and heal from FOO...for our picked partners to act in the same original injurous fashion, well, isn't that the ultimate betrayal? Okay, so them rejection us is...in A's and other ways...because they were on our team from choice! What is within your power is choosing not to see her as your enemy...her wayward mindset and her A are your enemy, not her.

Knowing she sees you this way right now, isn't about who you really are...and it's temporary. Teenagers push off from us as parents...we become their enemy (a lot of the exact same issues...control, cause, cure)...as parents, we choose not to see our teenagers as enemies and react as if they are...we choose to stay in reality and know they are in between child and adult...tough place to be. Many of us adults have a hard time ever getting to adult.

"She's doing something she feels guilty about, whether she acknowledges the guilt or not, so when she talks to me she feels tinges of guilt and because she chooses to believe that I'm the cause of her feelings, I'm to blame. Even though her actions are the driving force behind her feelings."

Where's your payoff in going through all her stuff this way? Do not assume she reacts from guilt...tell yourself the truth and say, "If I were her, I would. I'm not her." Enmeshment gives rise to all of this...this is how we enable instead of respect. Part of our fixer obsession. Stop. Find your false payoff for all this focus on her, how it may soothe, distract, relieve or falsely benefit you in what way and why...'cuz there is a payoff for you or you wouldn't do this.

"I know I need to participate in it to be affected by it, but what would you call it when her intention is to make me feel guilty or ashamed?"

Would you consider her intentions remain hers? Your intentions are where your feelings come from? Your beliefs? How well you hold to your own code? No one can make you feel guilty or ashamed...you can feel those.

I asked you to identify what you are grieving..."No friggin clue!"

LOL! I remember saying that in response to that same question.

Now, get to work and identify...because this is the crux of why our partners turn into enemies in our own minds...here we yolk with them for healing and don't identify what we're healing from...use our sense indicator of happiness to tell blindly, and then turn on them and are turned on. Identifying our griefwork aids greatly in not seeing them as our enemies, our attackers, our injurying mates.

Examine your early injuries to tell the difference.

"Couple of things I wanted to mention. Last night WW told me:

"You told me in the past that people can choose their feelings."

I responded that I don't believe that I said that. I told her I probably said that I believe people can choose to think and interact differently, impacting their feelings. This is what I believe. Your feelings are your feelings - responses to stimuli. You can't just choose to feel different, but you can impact them indirectly.

"So you're saying that you can choose your feelings. Why can't you just tell me I'm right when I am?"

I don't see a listen and repeat in there...am I missing something? "You perceived I said humans choose their feelings, is that correct?" or "I don't understand your statement. Are you asking me if I believe I can choose my own feelings?"

No circular there...may feel like it. Acknowledgement isn't just for feelings...includes thoughts, perceptions and perspectives. She didn't get to where she was going because you got in her way. You went to "Did I say that?" or not...rather than, what was on her mind. "How do you feel about that statement?" Exploratory.

After you explained your beliefs and her statement, "I hear you feel I don't tell you you're right enough, is that correct? It's important to you that I state when you're right about something?"

"We have these circular conversations where you dispute what I'm saying and then come around to say the same thing that you disagreed with in the first place."

You're not alone...and yes, you're half of those looped conversations. Check your intent before you respond...is it to refute, clarify your own response...or clarify what you're really being asked?

"I'll tell you why, it's because you always have to be right."

"You believe that being right is more important to me than honoring what you believe is right?"

What is your intent, MT? I had to make mine, "Strive first to understand, then be understood." And I repeated that a lot to myself...because I wanted to be understood more.

"I'm not really sure what was behind this, but this is one of those dynamics that I have a hard time with. She makes a statement about what I think, and it doesn't reflect my thinking, so I try and clarify, she hears what she's listening for in what I'm saying, and confirms her original assertion, then tells me that I always tell her she's wrong and then say the same thing she originally said. The distinction is significant a lot of the time, as I think this example illustrates, yet what she takes away from the conversation is confirmation of her worthlessness," DJ alert "her inability to be right, etc., etc., etc. I don't know how to navigate a conversation like this without being the bad guy in her eyes." DJ alert "I guess I have to accept that that's what she's looking to make me, so she'll find it in our interactions somewhere."

She can't make you the bad guy...and you definitely have a blame-filled marriage. Stop taking it, pondering and DJing with it. When you stop your half, blame stops. And this is a flip over...because you believe someone can be made to take blame (and we can't), to be a bad guy, that means you also choose this perspective which can make her the problem, the bad guy. You know humans cannot be problems...or the bad guy. Humans do and don't do. We have to take offense and blame...they can't really be put on us.

Sure can experience life as if they can...which is fantasy.

"The other thing she said was:

"You are so damn selfrighteous."

Right there was her defining you...called for you to say, "Stop! Ouch. That's abusive."

"You think you can't do anything wrong."

"Ouch. Stop. If you continue defining me, I'll remove myself for ten minutes, to calm myself down."

"You don't check yourself to see how you really are."

"I'm removing myself now. If you choose to continue this abuse when I return in ten minutes, I'll remove myself for two hours."

Then you may not have heard the rest of this.

"You think so highly of yourself you make people want to show you what you really look like. You make my want to push you down."

If that isn't the abuser articulating how she feels she's a victim of the victim, and her actions are attributable to her victimhood I don't know what is!"

When your focus is entirely on her, you are abusing yourself. Own it. You didn't state to identify, request to stop or remove yourself. YOU did that...and you identified the abuse! You're victimizing yourself and seeing her doing it...enforce your boundaries as an act of respect to yourself, her and your marriage.

Making her the bad guy won't save your marriage...you can't grow from being done to. Taking abuse has a false payoff for you...find it. Share it here.

And yes, my brows are really knitted right now.

LA

You know, I experience being in this spiral through this whole process. It goes up generally, but I see the same patterns from a different perspective each time. I see my unhealthy patterns play out from a different place, as well as healthier ones. Ones that I'm proud of.


Ok, I picked my words poorly here. I said care when I should have said something else. I care about her feelings whether I choose to act from them or not. I'm viewing this as a personal processing thing and what I hear you keep stressing is the interpersonal negotiating and understanding.


I was aware of this as I was writing it. I wasn't sure how to convey the contrast between my understanding and my actions without it. I was trying to illustrate how a part of me is acting unconsciously, and therefore not in line with my intentions. You talk about choice, yet this occurs without my conscious choice - at the moment. I can see how this thinking allows me to remain my own victim. A victim of my brokenness, that I'm not whole and not complete because I am not in control of myself. Not totally in touch with myself. This allows me to permit myself to react to her and not acknowledge my choice.


This hurts to read - seeing my own words so full of this stuff. It's a spot on the spiral, just past thinking I'm getting it, making significant changes in my perspective. It's the pendulum swing, my own sense of entitlement. Because I tackle these issues she should too. Tit for tat, not truly focusing on myself. I look inward only to recognize I'm focused outward again. Is it something I don't want to look at inside that's driving me to distract myself?


I really have a hard time with this. I do try and focus on this, but I need practice. I'm clumsy and I feel extremely vulnerable about it because WW mocks me or being different or weird - and then I try and avoid this feeling of shame. She's so much quicker with her tongue and I'm all muddled up in the head I am generally unable to tell her what exactly I'm hearing. I need a moment to process, and by then she's on to something else and doesn't grant my request for a moment to think.


Yes. It's definately common ground in my opinion.

For example, WW just called, frustrated about the financial situation. We sat down last week, as you know, and put a plan in place. Things are tight, and they are where we established they would be. She conveyed that she's really upset about it, and she thinks that I don't care and I have all these luxuries that I spend money on that she doesn't. I told her I couldn't speak about it now but I would speak with her about it at lunch time, we could look at the plan again and see what changes we need to make etc. She then brings in some of the older grudge issues, saying "talking doesn't help anything, actions to back up the words are what matter". I agree. That's what I'm trying to get to. But my perception here that ties into what I was just writing about is that it's her feelings that she is motivated to change, and she's holding me responsible to change them. This is where the enmeshment creates the most problems. I am not really sure if this feeling of responsibility for her feelings is coming from me or her. But I see the issue as something to be dealt with, but with the extra layers of feeling on top of it, it takes on a different meaning. Now this issue is symbolic of the failure of the relationship, of my inability to prevent my WW from feeling the stresses of finances. In my opinion she not only resents me but holds a grudge for both making her feel this way and not aleviating these feelings. Now the blame starts: her taking action change her feelings. One of the problems with this whole flip thing is that I give myself permission to flip what I'm thinking about myself onto her because I flip what I'm thinking about her onto myself. I pretend I know what's driving her.

One of the things I have difficulty with is when she calls me at work, upset, seemingly looking for relief from these feelings through me, and I can't talk. I tell her, she gets frustrated, or yells at me without my ability to participate, and then eventually hangs up on me. I have attempted to create a boundary there, but what can I do? Just hang up the phone?


And I'm in a crisis that somewhat mirrors hers. Maybe crisis is too strong, but my point is that it's difficult to stand strong, in my own space when the integrity of my self image is not very strong. Yes, I'm trying to be aware of her state, but in trying to accept it, I end up judging it and making assumptions that are wrong just to protect myself from the hurt. If I were more comfortable in my own skin I wouldn't be affected by things she says or does. I wouldn't feel that she had the ability to define me.


Helps me feel better to believe that all this stuff comes from her stuff, not because of me. I'm creating evidence for this truth - that people are affected by their reality, of their own making.


I believe this. I guess I got a bit carried away. Reading Bradshaw, he's discussing the way parents parent, and things like shaming or guilt trips to control behavior strike me as similar to what WW does to me. This is what I was trying to communicate. I'm so cloudy about whether she's really controlling (which I thought early on in our relationship) or if it's my own controlling nature that leads me to see her this way. If it's integral to my filter, therefore I see it.


On my 3rd birthday, 3 baby boys were brought to my home. I asked my mother who their mother was. She told me she was. I told her that was not possible, because she was my mother. I was abandoned because something better came along. How unique and special are triplets? How could I compare? People on the street admired them and I was transparent. My parents were running around caring for them - in fact I jumped in to feed them and help out. I lost my childhood to them, to some degree or other. I never got the attention of my parents anymore. I wasn't good enough for it. I mourn this. I was different than people I went to school with. I felt different. I was dressed differently. I didn't fit in. I was ashamed of myself. In this way I missed out on the joys of childhood. I turned inward. I read a lot. I remember going on vacations to family in Europe and being buried in a book the whole time rather than talking and relating. I did, however, run around and play with my brothers a lot. I think since they had replaced me with their intrinsic superiority I developed ways of proving myself superior to them - intellectually, physically, etc. I grieve because this is what I had to do to survive then. It's sad. I grieve the whole development of my life. The fact that I never had my own space, no room of my own (well, before the brothers came along I did). The fact that I wasn't allowed to choose what I wanted to do. My father wanted me to play the piano, so I had to. I took lessons for almost thirteen years. Never practiced. Never internalized it. Never loved it. I did what I had to. Learned the piece for the concert, forgot it quickly afterwards. Can't read music now. It's all forgotten. My way of being in control, I guess, to forget. I might have to do what you want, but I don't have to like it. I don't have to make it a part of me. Now that I play in bands, it haunts me. All the training is an undercurrent. It's a general sense of talent. The skill isn't really there. Discipline is lacking. I don't remember songs very long. It's out of my control.

Ok, I got off on a tangent, but I guess there's so much I grieve that I don't know where to start.


No, I played my part in this thing perfectly. No real change - my approach was the same. Thanks for the time you take pointing me in the direction of making changes in this regard. I apologize that I seem so stubborn about not implementing them.


I agree. I don't know if I would have owned it in that moment though, and that's where it's important. I get a payoff from her being the bad guy, and I'm willing to abuse (sacrifice) myself in order to get it.

MT,

Thank you very much for sharing your ouch above...

"Tit for tat, not truly focusing on myself. I look inward only to recognize I'm focused outward again. Is it something I don't want to look at inside that's driving me to distract myself?"

Consider your pattern for your whole life...and now, you're changing your choices and actions. You've been going through others to come into yourself...this would be natural for your brain to go through WW to come into you, even while you change...accept your past patterns as past. Say to yourself when you realize your focus is being sucked into WW (you have signals)..."That's not what I want." Use your kind, loving, gentle tone in those words...no distraction required...and it's not always distraction...it truly is your habit of going out the front door of yourself, halfway around the block to come back inside your own back door to yourself. Long way to go...your mental feet know the way well; your hands reach automatically for the door...I think that's the unconscious part you're talking about...and all you really want to do first is be aware of your automatics...so you can, "Ahhh! I see it." Then you can change it...

Sadness is mourning your steps around the block, the choice you kept making...and the sorrow for deserting yourself to return to yourself...good healing stuff. Would you consider that the most damaging choice you've made in your life is to be perfect? Perfectly protected?

You'll grieve more when you realize that this self-abandonment (through others) was unnecessary...we all fear the unknown, even the unknown within us. Takes you choosing to believe there is nothing so awful inside you, a creation of God from love, to discover, explore and know.

Rinse. Repeat.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

"I really have a hard time with this. I do try and focus on this, but"

Here is what I felt was a freeing truth..."To try is to lie."

Humans do and not do...that's reality. There is no try. Just because Yoda said it, doesn't mean it isn't try. You are fearful and you choose to act from your fear and not share...you haven't practiced healthy boundary enforcements...nor allowed yourself the beginning permission to say "Ouch!" even...when you know that her stuff can't override, change, smush or knock down your stuff...then you'll share more. With ownership...and this will help you enforce your boundaries...into an upward spiral.

"I need practice."

Choose to practice...with anyone. Choose to listen and repeat with coworkers, in posts, phone conversations...with your son. Choose to use those "I" statements to share with. Brain doesn't know the difference.

"I'm clumsy"

Clumsy to me is the physical manifestation of fear...and distraction. We have a lot of physical signals. Our smile, a blush, our laughter, our pain in the middle of our chest, or butterflies in our stomaches...get the signals. What you are is human...you may act clumsy--you're not.

"and I feel extremely vulnerable about it because WW mocks me or being different or weird - and then I try and avoid this feeling of shame."

Again, revoke your permission to react and invoke permission only to act. Mockery is abusive, like sarcasm. Focus where you mock (for fun...that's what it hides behind) and when you feel like mocking, or you do, ensure you say, "Hey, I just thought of saying <blank> and I think that's me mocking, like a hidden self-put down." Identifying will stop your patterns. Not forcing you to stop.

Remember, humans don't do anything they don't want to do. When you really don't want to be mocked, abused, attacked, degraded (false payoff identified and disowned)...then you won't be. You will enforce your boundaries, know your limits and power, and hold yourself to those same boundaries. Identify through awareness...not break your code of honesty to protect yourself from others. Tells self, self is not strong, is fragile, can't stand pain...when really, self is whole and complete...strong beyond words...and needs only to be present and aware.

"She's so much quicker with her tongue and I'm all muddled up in the head I am generally unable to tell her what exactly I'm hearing."

That's why you clear your own noise. Limited yourself to ONLY listen and repeat. When you catch yourself refuting, state it. "I'm refuting right now. I want to hear and understand, not refute." Permit yourself to take deep breaths, roll your shoulders, acknowledge your tension from your own expectations..."My thoughts are muddled right now. I'm not listening to what you are saying; I'm anticipating you attacking me and I believe you aren't right now."

"I need a moment to process, and by then she's on to something else and doesn't grant my request for a moment to think."

Take your moments...as many as you need. Only don't take them without stating you're taking them. That's your difference. She can go on to something else...and you can stay where you were...you can choose to state, "I need a moment to catch up with you, to hear what you said. I want to hear what you're saying." She goes on, you remove. "I said I needed a moment. I'm taking five minutes and I'll be back."

Then do it.

When you focus on stating...including your intent and desires...you won't have room for "I'm such an idiot, clutz, stupidhead, fartboy." Or whatever goes through your mind (just showed you mine, only not the fartboy one. That was for humor. I can't image any male thinking this is derogatory...all my men are very proud of their flatulence...it's close to an EN they meet.)

"Yes. It's definately common ground in my opinion."

Would you consider that when standing in common ground, it's more difficult to spot your own footprints, stand in your own territory?

"For example, WW just called, frustrated about the financial situation. We sat down last week, as you know, and put a plan in place. Things are tight, and they are where we established they would be. She conveyed that she's really upset about it, and she thinks that I don't care and I have all these luxuries that I spend money on that she doesn't."

Me speaking for you: "I hear you feel anxious from our new budget and you are resentful when you think that I am spending on unnecessary luxuries and you don't, is that correct?"

"I told her I couldn't speak about it now but I would speak with her about it at lunch time, we could look at the plan again and see what changes we need to make etc. She then brings in some of the older grudge issues, saying "talking doesn't help anything, actions to back up the words are what matter"."

Me speaking for you: "I hear you do not believe when your talking helps us to communicate; and you believe your actions back up your words are what matter, is that correct?"

"I agree. That's what I'm trying to get to. But my perception here that ties into what I was just writing about is that it's her feelings that she is motivated to change, and she's holding me responsible to change them."

Her perspective can be you are responsible...does not make you responsible...if you buy into her stuff...even the "I don't want to discuss this now. How 'bout in on my lunch?" and she continues talking about it...say, "I offered my lunch hour to talk about this...I want to hear your feelings and thoughts. You have chosen to continue right now. I'm hanging up and will talk to you after work."

That's a boundary enforcement. Not tit for tat. As long as you don't OWN YOUR CHOICES...you will continue in this loop...really, by choice.

"This is where the enmeshment creates the most problems. I am not really sure if this feeling of responsibility for her feelings is coming from me or her."

Both...her to believe, you to perceive...to take responsibility...which is fantasy. You are only responsible for your own stuff...respect she's responsible for her stuff...signals to her, about her, from her beliefs. Stop ROBBING her of what is hers by choosing to take what isn't yours. Such a choice from honesty and respect IS an act of love, not a reaction from fear.

"But I see the issue as something to be dealt with, but with the extra layers of feeling on top of it, it takes on a different meaning. Now this issue is symbolic of the failure of the relationship, of my inability to prevent my WW from feeling the stresses of finances."

Her stress is a signal to her, about her. For you to prevent her stress is to disrespect her stuff, isn't it? You both came up with this budget; you POJA'd! Listen and acknowledge her stress...it's real and valid. Sharing decreases stress. Putting (or taking it out) our stress onto others DOES NOT reduce it...that's fantasy. We can't do it. Human limits. Our stuff remains our own.

We sure can experience life as if it doesn't.

"In my opinion she not only resents me but holds a grudge for both making her feel this way and not aleviating these feelings."

DJ? Or does she state, "I am holding a grudge for you not meeint my FS EN and causing me to feel stress, anger and fear."

?

"Now the blame starts: her taking action change her feelings. One of the problems with this whole flip thing is that I give myself permission to flip what I'm thinking about myself onto her because I flip what I'm thinking about her onto myself."

Ah ha! A hidden two-way street...one you've done by pattern; the other is new. Okay, newer. I haven't thought of this in all my flippin'. I looked as it being one before the other...I used to put my stuff over there, on DH and others...now I'm flipping it back.

"I pretend I know what's driving her."

How does pretend feel? Has that false payoff diminished greatly, or does it still have this mesmerizing allure to it?

"One of the things I have difficulty with is when she calls me at work, upset, seemingly looking for relief from these feelings through me, and I can't talk."

What's with the "can't talk" talk?

"I tell her, she gets frustrated, or yells at me without my ability to participate, and then eventually hangs up on me."

I think I would, too. Seriously. Okay, maybe not rant...however, I would state, "I hear you saying you can't talk right now. I know you're choosing to not talk right now. I want us to be clear on our choices."

Now, I don't call my DH at work during certain hours...that's my courtesy...I CAN, I chose not to...and that isn't to not risk his job...I don't need to talk to him at those peak hours unless it's an emergency (and with sons, that happens)...still no "can't" in there.

I felt extreme rejection when my DH would rush me off the phone (my perception)...I didn't own the times when I called, either. The rejection is much like what you experience with her DJs...and the concept, that you are powerless at work is humiliating and fantasy. You choose. Part of priorities. I have a high EN for FS...so I owned my own EN and didn't call during peak (where he might very well feel torn between his work and home mindsets). No rejection there. When my DH called ME when he said he would...then I rejoiced...helped by him doing it to the minute...gave me time to settle my feelings by listing and knowing them...mutuality. Gave him time to switch mind-focus and be on US. Mutuality.

You have a choice to own your choice...Yes, you can. You choose not to (you can explain mindset issues...we have them...our mind filled with one thing and W's issues (not WW's issues) are a higher priority...doesn't help in being difficult to switch focus fast. Could this be your own self saying, "You are talking to WW like your real W; causes a lot of internal conflict?"

What do you have to lose, MT, from having predetermined, progressive boundary enforcements? Before you leave in the morning, you can kiss WW and say, "I'm going to call you at 10am and 2pm today, after I've switched my focus from work so I can connect with you fully."

And out the door.

"I have attempted to create a boundary there, but what can I do? Just hang up the phone?"

Take no action without stating what you're doing...changes it from retaliation to abuse...why boundary enforcements are progressive...informative...respectful. And yes, hanging up is a boundary enforcement. If it's your first, unstated...then that's abusive. If it's your third or fourth, then it's not.

To talk is to connect...not just a dumping ground. If you choose to see her connection as dumping, venting, putting it on you, then you won't acknowledge the connection in there...and you'll experience connection as burden.

Up to you...you're the one choosing your perception.

"And I'm in a crisis that somewhat mirrors hers. Maybe crisis is too strong, but my point is that it's difficult to stand strong, in my own space when the integrity of my self image is not very strong."

Would you consider that your self-image got you here? Your integrity is based in self...your wholeness and your boundaries (holding yourself to them as we've discussed)...your self-image isn't how others see you...that's their image of you, filtered through them...every single human does this...so it's not yours...and you have absolutely no control over how you're seen...however you have a clay self-image you created of yourself, to yourself, built through reflections from others...and it's not real...it's fantasy. You gave it the power to signal you through feelings, think in it, believe from it, act from it, and perceive from it...even view your life from it. It's not real. Which is why you experience as real when it's not...spend a lot of time trying to get others to reflect it well enough to shine...and in the meantime, your authentic self remains, shining away, from it's own light, inside out.

We honor self through esteeming self...not choosing actions which break our code (and amending when we do)...not building more self-image by going through others. They can feel the same...admiration you receive, you may attribute to self-image...you could choose to acknowledge others' opinions and admire your true self.

"Yes, I'm trying to be aware of her state, but in trying to accept it, I end up judging it and making assumptions that are wrong just to protect myself from the hurt."

Highlighting your own choice to power bleed here.

I'm restating with your power: "Yes, I am aware of her state and when I choose to accept her state as hers, I choose to judge and make assumptions about her state, instead of acknowledging to know, not judge. I feel protected from pain when I do this. I know I'm causing pain inside and out when I choose to believe I am protecting through DJs."

"If I were more comfortable in my own skin I wouldn't be affected by things she says or does."

Comfort has nothing to do with it...that's coping stuff that got you here. If you chose to believe your stuff is valid and HER stuff is valid...and separate...and equal, then you would not experience pain from her stuff. You cannot be affected (reactive) without choice to leave your gates wide open to her influence. That's you manning those gates, not her. She doesn't have that power.

"I wouldn't feel that she had the ability to define me."

She has the ability to define anyone and everyone. God gave her that ability and choice. As long as you choose to believe you are defined by others...whether it's her, your boss, guy waiting for the bus...then you will continue to allow others to define you. And you will continue hurt, ache, mourn and retaliate.

"Helps me feel better to believe that all this stuff comes from her stuff, not because of me. I'm creating evidence for this truth - that people are affected by their reality, of their own making."

Really well-stated...you can experience fantasy as if it is reality...doesn't change REALITY. Choosing differently gives you a different reality...which is why I urge you to choose truth of human design first, instead of DJs...

"I believe this. I guess I got a bit carried away. Reading Bradshaw, he's discussing the way parents parent, and things like shaming or guilt trips to control behavior strike me as similar to what WW does to me. This is what I was trying to communicate."

Got it...when you're closer to your inner child, which is what I also experienced reading Bradshaw, then your inner child perception is that WW can do and does this to you, which was the same thing for you as a child...and might include why you were attracted to her in the first place...to work this out. Is that in the ballpark?

"I'm so cloudy about whether she's really controlling (which I thought early on in our relationship) or if it's my own controlling nature that leads me to see her this way."

ROFLMAO...again, you said in one sentence what took me I believe one year to see it and 4,000 posts to state it. BECAUSE I was a control freak, I saw in others their control attempts...my DH has since said he was controlling...non-responsive, interactive, withdrawing were his ways...mine were invasive, interrogatory, pursuit. All fantasy. None of it controlled either of us...we remained solely in control of ourselves. Period. Reality.

"If it's integral to my filter, therefore I see it."

I think that's what you meant...you're gonna be signalling the heck out of yourself through others...is that what you realized?

"On my 3rd birthday, 3 baby boys were brought to my home. I asked my mother who their mother was. She told me she was. I told her that was not possible, because she was my mother."

This was the trauma to your "Mommy and Me are One"...the sudden break...on your bday no less...that your identity wasn't only shared between you and Mommy (and learning you were separate)...heck it was REPLICATED by three others, who amazingly DID look like they shared themselves (three as one). Gotta be a huge realization.

"I was abandoned because something better came along. How unique and special are triplets? How could I compare?"

Yet, you asked and stated essentially, this isn't right. You and I are one. What a hugely brave and amazing boy you were!!

"People on the street admired them and I was transparent."

Ack...ownership..."I chose to perceive people on the street admire and focus on them and I felt invisible...see-through."

"My parents were running around caring for them - in fact I jumped in to feed them and help out. I lost my childhood to them,"

Childhood? You lost your identity...you got the ruptured kind where you made a self-image to combat triplets...made out of high expectations, rigid rules and the glue of resentment holding it together.

"to some degree or other. I never got the attention of my parents anymore."

You are in your inner child..."never"? Is that true? I know you can relax your mind and go back and see moments...even four moments in a row, when you shared eye contact, a confidence, a pat on the back, a hug...no "never" in there. You chose to set your sights on noticing how little, how you lacked...and as an adult perspective...looking back you empower yourself to know the truth, not perceived memories...so you can stay strong and wise for your inner three-year-old...

"I wasn't good enough for it."

Do you honestly believe this was about you not being good enough for anything? Or parents having too many children...quantity not a quality issue?

"I mourn this."

Mourning this for a lifetime...because it's that large...what have you denied before, felt anger for, bargained with God for, sorrowed for and accepted about this event? That they didn't get rid of you...give you away to strangers...put you in an orphanage? You were included...you felt used, usurped, denied and invisible...a lot of "shouldn't have been this way" ways in you...grieving gets to all of it...how far have you come?

You may well feel used by WW, usurped by OM (interestingly a relative, too), denied your entitlement of protection (wife and I are one), and invisible (when her focus is on your shortcomings and you hear her compare you to OM)...which can trigger that "not good enough" perspective which you chose from to make your self-image. A huge loop...identified some important life poles.

Could this be your time to fully mourn right now?

"I was different than people I went to school with. I felt different. I was dressed differently. I didn't fit in. I was ashamed of myself. In this way I missed out on the joys of childhood. I turned inward. I read a lot."

One of my huge joys of childhood was laying out, sunbathing in the backyard, reading...going to the beach with a book...curling up every night with my light on for a half hour before lights out, reading...and sneaking a flashlight under the covers for the great Victoria Holt books I was addicted to...oh, and definitely Tolkein's.

Part of childhood...and I bet you can find many parts like these. I'm not saying you didn't have the childhood you wanted...I'm positive you had a vision of what it "should" have been like...we all do...I'm asking for your adult eyes to see through your child's with a wider scope, than from the ache of want, the piercing rejection.

"I remember going on vacations to family in Europe and being buried in a book the whole time rather than talking and relating."

Would you say that you were acting from your power to cut out other's influence and to make your misery known through withdrawing, as well as soothing through distraction?

"I did, however, run around and play with my brothers a lot. I think since they had replaced me with their intrinsic superiority I developed ways of proving myself superior to them - intellectually, physically, etc."

Oh, heckfire, MT...please consider that you had big brotheritis, as well in there. All first borns do feel threatened from younger siblings...and take on the guide role, the leadership, the one upmanship of place within family...were you the scapegoat, the rebel? The brainy one? The righteous one?

"I grieve because this is what I had to do to survive then."

It's what you did...period. And you survived. It also taught you to not be O&H...to not share your stuff...to not be the squeaky wheel? Is that close? To close off meant protection...and confrontation was the scariest part?

"It's sad."

No, you're sad. It's real. Your experience was very real.

"I grieve the whole development of my life. The fact that I never had my own space, no room of my own (well, before the brothers came along I did). The fact that I wasn't allowed to choose what I wanted to do. My father wanted me to play the piano, so I had to."

Hey, me too! Did you also take dance lessons and wear funky outfits to recitals?

"I took lessons for almost thirteen years. Never practiced. Never internalized it. Never loved it."

Whoa...13 years? Now I don't feel so badly that my step mother gave away the piano to keep me from playing it. I was that bad.

"I did what I had to."

Would you now, in recollecting and sharing, consider putting your power into it...though it may feel very much like blame...that you did what you chose to do? Better aligns, helps in grieving...towards acceptance...not blame.

"Learned the piece for the concert, forgot it quickly afterwards. Can't read music now. It's all forgotten."

Do I hear you mourn, also, your rejection of it, the whole experience...can you detect any desire in yourself now to play for yourself? To share in a new way with yourself?

"My way of being in control, I guess, to forget. I might have to do what you want, but I don't have to like it. I don't have to make it a part of me. Now that I play in bands, it haunts me. All the training is an undercurrent. It's a general sense of talent. The skill isn't really there. Discipline is lacking. I don't remember songs very long. It's out of my control."

Finding your love of the music goes to self...that place before a word was spoken or an action taken...there is love for...you'll get there. Not out of your control...behind your back...and you are bringing a lot of your choices, your memories, to the front, to your light...whole memories...

Which reminds me...I wrote something I think relates to what you're experiencing right now...it's over on Helium...it's short (shorter than this post)...http://www.helium.com/tm/236670

"Ok, I got off on a tangent, but I guess there's so much I grieve that I don't know where to start." Sounds to me like you started...and you've been grieving...mourning loss from expectations, desires, wants and needs. Do you believe you continue to live in this lack, or are you now in abundance?

You don't seem stubborn to me about not choosing to listen and repeat...you seem to me to be afraid. Like I'm asking you to drop the reinforced shield and open your arms to the arrows and swords...and I am.

You don't have to own in the moment...fact remains, you have to own. When you get it...state it. That's being true to yourself. Don't stretch your self-betrayal out for days...hurts worse. Own to own, so you can enforce your boundaries, too.

You're a blessing on this earth, MT. Your choices remain yours...your freedom is panting for you...I promise.

LA

Thanks LA. I need to vent a bit. I think I am yet again experiencing the consequences of not addressing my emotions in the moment and allowing things to stew and erupt later. When I went home for lunch WW and I had a conversation. I'm not too clear on exactly what happened or how. It's still a blur. We started talking about money, and I listened and repeated what I heard. She then segued into talking about ending the marriage, and why it is that I won't allow myself to really see what's going on or how things are. I told her that I did see this, but that my solution was different than hers.

She asked me what I saw happening, and I told her that I saw that our relationship was dysfunctional. She asserted that this was doing harm to our son. I agreed, but did not agree that parting ways was the solution. She stated then "don't you think that agreeing to part ways would be better for our son rather than keeping his mother trapped in this misery?" I told her she was free to go, if this was the solution she chose. I do not agree that it solves our problem. She started saying things like "I'm not sure why you're hanging on, if it's because you are afraid that this is going to mean something about yourself, that you don't want to fail because it will define you as a failure. . ." I stopped her and told her that I would be happy to share why I am choosing to be where I am. She told me she didn't trust me to. I told her I would be happy to honestly tell her where I'm coming from. She told me that she didn't think I would be dishonest, but that she doesn't think I have a real objective picture. I started to share that I had a couple of reasons (none of them fear driven) the first being our son deserving an intact family, the second being that I believe we are together for a reason. I wanted to tell her about the healing, about Hendrix's ideas of resolving FOO issues through relationship. I didn't get that far. She took us off of the subject and I chose to let it go. I made the judgment that she wasn't interested in hearing what I wanted to share.

She then started talking about how she hasn't seen me change. She believes that I don't care about the family, that I don't care about our home. She said that if I cared about her, I would change when she brings up something that bothers her, not get defensive. I agreed that defensiveness was a problem. She said she doesn't see me make an effort to meet her in the middle. I told her I'd like to meet her there. She said that it seems I'm constantly protecting my self image (didn't really say self image, but that's what I heard) and refuse to see anything wrong with myself or consider changing, much less actually doing so. She then said that this is because this is who I am, and she being who she is, the two of us just don't work and never will.

Then she started in to talking about how I am responsible for the dysfunction of the family because I don't take care of them or the house, etc. I just don't see when something needs doing. I'll walk past something several times without picking it up. Do I do this? Sure, sometimes I do. Do I do a lot too? I do. I have changed a lot in this regard. I have seen myself grow significantly in this area because I don't rely on my W at all anymore. I make sure my stuff and my son's stuff is tidy. I don't leave dishes in the sink. I clean every couple of weeks (not as often as I'd like). I feel good about this. I confronted her about not owning her desire to see me behave a certain way. She told me that it's objective that I'm not doing what needs to be done. Other people see it as well. She then started talking about how she knows what kind of family I grew up in, what I'm used to and how this determines what I'm capable of. She knows me.

So back to her telling me how I'm responsible for the dysfunction in the family, for her misery, for the state of things. Here's where I messed up. I played the blame game and brought up the question of how continuing the relationship with my cousin is contributing to the health of our son. She told me she wasn't continuing it. I asked her when the last time she had contact was. She told me it was the end of January. I called her on it, telling her it was BS. I told her that I have seen the calling card number on the phone and I have no doubt there is still contact. She got quite upset and told me to leave. She told me that she will never love me again. I said something along the lines of "if that's your choice. . ." To which she responded that I was just contradicting what I said yesterday, that you could choose feelings. I told her that I was talking about love as a verb, not a feeling in this sense. I left.

She called me shortly afterwards and told me that I needed a scapegoat to avoid feeling that the breakup of our marriage was due to my failings. To my defects. She told me it was all because of me, not because she had anything to do with OM. I told her that I understood she believed this.

So, there we are. I'm sure I'll get the silent treatment now. She's angry with me - and probably rightfully so. I used this against her - retaliation for telling me this was all my fault. It's not all her fault. I know I play a part in all of this, just as she does. To think either of us is solely responsible for this is fantasy.

She's begging for change from me. She keeps pointing out that she's asking for it, looking for it, seemingly testing me, giving me chances. I have changed and I am changing. I know this. It may not be what she wants. I have heard her tell me that she wants me to own that I'm inferior (whether I'm happy with who I am or not) and not good enough for her, so we should split up as a joint decision, or that I should change, be more willing to accept her influence and more capable, giving her what she wants out of me. I'm not really heading in either of these directions. I want to give her what she wants, meet her needs, etc., but I see this differently than she does. I want to POJA this point, not submit to her wishes. Accept her influence rather than be her puppet. I am a worthwhile, great person whose perspective is valid and matters, not something that should be shoved aside for the happiness of another.

I will get back to your post later. It really moved me, a lot of it. I feel as I gain clarity, I lose so much. I know my WW is doing the best she can with what she has right now, just as I am. I know I'm healing in ways I couldn't have had this situation not happened. I'm not sure she's taking this route, pinning it all on me and seeing leaving as the only solution. I'm not sure of much of anything anymore, just that I continue to see promise in my life and myself. I don't know if I'm going to walk away from this relationship (she basically told me that she was going to hate me the longer I held out) knowing the issues I need to resolve, or if I'm going to actually resolve them and learn to play my part in a functional relationship with this woman. Either way, I think it's personal progress. I hope.

Thank you for sharing, MT.

I'm feeling heartsick right now. My first reaction to your post was "Let me AT HER!!" and my old abuser kicked into high gear...good to know I'm ready, willing and able to do so...at what level...so I can be sure to back off...wait out about twenty minutes, and then feel heartsick instead of prison garb.

:::big sigh::: :::deep breaths:::

This was exactly how I would crush pain into my DH...I did it in those words, that way and with multiple affairs.

I am heartfully, deeply sorry. I'm sorry you are accepting this from her, as my DH did, too...and I believe without a shred of doubt she loves you as terribly and truly as I love my DH.

Doesn't really make the abuse, the obsession with bad guys and victims, nor the drowning in shame and feeling shamed...I share that to let you know that she's not gone because of her self-image (A's are all about that part, though, the false self)...she's there because she doesn't really want to be anywhere else.

And by the way...abusing that way was what I used to call O&H sharing...yeah, that's how messed up I was...justified at every turn...only it was fantasy.

Up to you to know you're hearing fantasy, not reality...and she sooooo wants to be right more than married right now. She really does...thank you for not abusing back. Thank you for not taking on what truly isn't yours...for owning your progress and your standing by your belief in your changes...

You're worth it...your DS is worth it...you didn't slide into refuting until she got specific with the walking by and not picking up stuff...know your snares...specific examples are irresistable for you right now...that will stay, the more you stay in conceptual...

I believe you have many people who do this to you, btw...bait and hook...you have a puppeting symbol...and it's not real...you didn't really give away your power all your life...just experienced it as if you had...find all the ways (with everyone, not just WW) you feel fear, tremble in your self-image, fly in your authentic self...

You can do this.

LA

LA,

Thanks for sharing that heartsick moment with me. One other thing that happened in that conversation that I forgot to mention is that I asked WW to consider respecting me and our marriage in our home. She had asked me whether I was going to disconnect the phone or computer again to stop her from having contact. I told her that I couldn't stop their contact, and I wasn't going to try, but that I would like her to consider respecting me and our marriage in our home - if she wants to continue cheating, to move out. She came back with "this is my home too, and I can do what I want in it. I pay the bills too, in fact I pay your bills. In fact, it should really be more my home than yours because I care more about it than you do."

Now to get back to your second to last post:


I'm not sure how I take this. I see truth in it, but I almost immediately refute it. I am not a perfectionist. I am happy to complete a project rather than it be perfect. If I had to make it perfect it woulf either not get done or other projects wouldn't. However, this leads me to wondering whether this is a part of my shell, perfectly designed imperfection. WW talks frequently these days about my selfrighteousness, and while it's obviously clouded in her perspective by her own filter, I think there's some truth to it. I think self righteousness comes from living externally, trying to live up to an external code. I have done this more often that I care for.


I like this. In fact I used this idea with my WW when talking about restoring our marriage. We do or don't. If we "try" we give outselves an out, we are agreeing that it's out of our control, that we can try and fail. In this case the more I do enforce boundaries, the more natural it will become. There's nothing to fail at because it's not about outcome.


Interesting.


Very much so. There's a sense of being absolved of blame when you can say "but she does it too." So in the common ground there's a sense of being protected.


"There he goes again being controlling, always having everything on his terms" I hear her saying. This is something she often harps on these days. Last night she went out to dinner with her mom. I had talked to her earlier about me going to the gym. She asked when I would like her home. I told her 7:30 would be great. She got home at 7:30 and I was still reading with DS. She got upset that I wasn't out the door as soon as she got home and told me that it was "controlling behavior" that I asked her to come home at this time as wasn't ready. She told me it was inconsiderate. I thanked her for being home when she said she would and told her I appreciated it.

I don't want to be labeled by her, so I avoid actions that might legitimize such a label. Deeply ingrained old pattern.


Just a quick clarification needed here: how can it be robbing when it's given freely? If she wants me to take responsibility and I do, is it really robbing? I guess I could see how this is objectively true, like the robbery victim telling the robber to take their money.

What concerns me is getting into this area where I in any way say "I know what's best and right for both of us". So making changes like this are difficult for me. I think it comes back to not wanting to be labeled as controlling, so I remain in a position where I'm agreeing with something that I don't agree with simply to avoid making waves.


The payoff has diminished. Still alluring, but no longer satisfying.


I am uncomfortable speaking openly in front of my coworkers. We are in cubicles and everyone can hear our conversations. I have told her about this situation and my discomfort. I "can't talk" because I choose not to air all my personal problems in the office. I choose not to fight while in the office. I choose not to get into heated conversations in the office. I know there was no ownership in that statement and I believe that's what you're getting at. I'm clear that this is my choice (which is disregarded and not respected - partly because of my choice not to raise my voice or get nasty in order to enforce a boundary) and I have made it clear to her that I don't want to engage in such a conversation under these circumstances.


Ok, if this is just the semantics of it, fine, but I have made clear that this is not the time or place for it and yet she continues to approach me at work. Sometimes only minutes before I come home for lunch.


You are choosing to respect his space. You are choosing to value his concentration. I don't feel either of these things matter to my WW when she calls. It's all about her. Yes, I understand the rejection and I hate that it happens. I often say "I'd like to talk to you about this later, can we set a time?" This I feel is respectful because it acknowledges that I want to listen to her and be involved in the conversation in a way I'm not able to at that time. I'm also trying to establish a concrete appointment. She takes it as total rejection and avoidance. We had a meeting at work yesterday and one of the things that was brought up was using company time to have personal conversations. So, yes, this isn't just a matter of personal preference. I choose to follow the rules (to some degree) at work. Talking on the phone is higher profile, therefore puts me in a more vulnerable position, than sending emails, etc. Wouldn't you be more likely to listen to a heated conversation you overhear versus a calm one?


Nothing, and I'm getting there little by little.


I'm not allowed to touch her. . .

I think this is great and I'll give it a try. Set up a time in advance so that I'm not blowing her off or avoiding her.


Yes, this is what I'm saying.


Objectively? I believe this is quantity and my own sense of entitlement. In fact it has nothing to do with me, really. It's just my egocentric mind made it about me. I personalized the change, as all children do. Those feelings are still real, whether they're based on irrational beliefs or not.


I don't know. I think I've just started. I have applied the cognative therapy techniques to my current thinking - never went back over my past. It's interesting that now there are a few schools of thought that say going over the past is not helpful. Dealing with present thought patterns is what matters. I think there's utility in both.


Yup.


I think so.


Yes.


I am having a hard time with this. In reading Bradshaw I'm looking to answer the same question. Not sure where I stand though. I rebelled, I played the leader, the righteous one to some degree, etc., etc. - there were so many roles that I'm at a loss as to which I played the most.


Yes, close off, not share, not be the squeaky wheel. I'm not sure it was fear of confrontation, rather there was something in the stoic image that appealed to me.


No dance lessons, but I've worn my share of funky outfits!


Yes, I hate that I rejected it. I hate that I refused to own it unless it was on my terms, and therefore just refused to own it. I play now, but I am right back in this really dysfunctional place because I "should" know things so much better. I feel like a fraud a lot. This is one area of my life that I feel playing out this battle with shame is so prominant. I get on stage and make a mistake, I'm exposed. Shame spiral begun. Yet the rational part of my brain says: "mistakes are inevitable, they are a part of music, in fact, the fact you made a mistake is an opportunity, work it into a theme, make something out of it, something purposeful." Quite often, when playing with a new group of people or picking up a different instrument I'm somewhat free of shame, able to play in ways that impress me. The longer I play with this group, the more limited my playing becomes because I'm playing it safe. But it happens on a less than conscious level.


Thanks for sharing this. Don't take this the wrong way, but it's nice to read your writing without all the "..."s! Not better, different. You mentioned this story the other day too.


I think I blind myself to the shield that I cling to. Because of this I don't throw it down. You know, the strange paradox about me in this situation is that if I'm afraid of rejection, if I've created all of these defense mechanisms to protect against feelings rejected, why do I stay in a situation where the rejection just keeps coming? I don't think I'm driven by rejection, but I wonder if it's denial, me telling myself that she's not really rejecting me, that it's because of something else, something in her. People do what they do for their own reasons. Personal reasons. If I reject someone it's not the other person causing the rejection, but it's my need to feel something about myself that encourages me to take the opportunity to reject them. Features of the other person are just an excuse. Or are they?

Yesterday, WW wanted to discuss separation. I told her in the past that I would discuss it with her once she was able to be independant. We set up concrete goals to define this (job, car, etc.). She revisited it yesterday stating that she had met these goals, despite the fact that she is in no position to be independant. It frustrates me that she looks to me as if I have the power to control this. I told her I was willing to discuss it and asked her how she wanted to start. She told me she doesn't want to live with me anymore. I told her that I understood this. She said she wanted to discuss separation. I told her I understood this. She told me I was not having a conversation with her about it. I told her that I was sitting her, with the purpose of discussing this. She told me that I wasn't discussing it. I told her I was hearing her blame me for there being no conversation at the moment. I told her that I understood she wanted a separation. I was here to discuss it. I wasn't, however, going to give her a plan, etc., because it's not my goal and not what I want. The impetus is on her to open up the topic. She continued to tell me that I wasn't discussing it - focusing on blaming me rather than talking about the subject that she wanted to talk about. Eventually, I told her I was going upstairs to check on DS. I would return.

She went upstairs too, and while we were up there she asked DS "Do you want mommy or daddy to move into a new home?" I told her I thought that was really inappropriate. She responded "I've been through this and I wish I had been given choices. All you have done is read books, and pro-marriage books at that. If this is an inevitability, than he should have some say in what happens to him. We shouldn't just decide his fate for him." When we went back downstairs she still didn't want to talk about separation. Instead we talked through some of our issues in the relationship.

She told me that she thinks my priorities are all screwed up, that I take care of myself while the family suffers. I do things for myself while she does nothing for herself (i.e., playing in this band and my gym membership). I told her I wished she would get involved in something just for her, that I think this is important. Anyway, I accept this to some degree. It's a matter of balance, and we didn't really POJA these issues because she was immersed in the affair at this point and I needed these outlets for my mental and physical health. She also brought up that we have communication issues, saying that I tend to deal with abstracts while she doesn't. I shared with her this was one of those reasons I see us as being so good for each other because it really helps us both grow. We each have a part of ourselves that views the world the way the other does, but it's not as developed. Being with someone that is more dominant that way helps with that growth and balance. She also mentioned my boundary issues and how they relate to her feeling smothered. For example, in the past I would hug her too much and she wouldn't tell me until the 10th time I did it. The I would stop for a while and then start doing it again. This is one of the reasons she doesn't think I can change. Because I do it for a little while and then revert to the way I acted before. Okay.

Some P/A behaviors were brought up and acknowledged. I thought it was actually a really good talk. We both shared and there was a real sense of connection. Afterwards she asked me in passing how I felt about the idea brought up by MIL/SFIL in the past of signing a separationg agreement but living in the same house. I told her I had no interest in this. If we were going to separate we would have to live in different homes. She got angry and resentful about this, telling me I was controlling, etc. Telling me our talk before was wasted and she shouldn't have expected that I would be reasonable. This, to me, is a striking example of her manipulative controlling. She gets angry when she doesn't get her way and then withholds love and affection and blames me for her anger. Oh well.

Last night, I came downstairs and chatted with WW for a little bit. DS was upstairs in bed, but not quite asleep. I told WW this and she started to go up to see him. I told her I was going to use the computer for a moment (downstairs). She got weird and told me she didn't want me using it in her space while she had things all over the place while she wasn't there. Ok, I guess I got suspicious and put off. I went upstairs. She said something to me upstairs and then told me I had an attitude. I stayed up there. I went downstairs and told her that when she said what she did I got angry and I felt controlled, etc. I told her that I was not here to tell her she did anything wrong, just how I felt because I noticed myself acting P/A and I wanted to acknowledge and express my feelings rather than resent her for them. I told her that she wasn't responsible for them, in fact I respect that she asked me not to do anything even if I disagreed and didn't like it. She accepted this and seemed to appreciate it. She explained that she didn't mean that she wanted me to leave the room, she just wanted me to not do anything. She didn't want me to go looking for things, etc. I think she was hiding something. A phone number on the phone, something on the computer. I don't know, and I find it a bit strange considering she hasn't told me there's NC, so what's to hide?

It sounds somewhat superficial here, but I think some real connecting occured. She did tell me, however, that she thought it was inappropriate for me to express affection for her! Well, things are what they are. I don't know whether to draw on this to support my hope, or just have no expectations and continue with my plans.

MT,

I backpedalled to pick up some stuff I missed. On 3/28/07 12:09pm post:

"She told me that it wasn't a good time, and then gave me what I believe was an excuse. I believe she was on the other line with OM. The fact that phone numbers were erased from the redial confirms it for me. I was more upset with the lying than anything else.

Since then she's been negative to nasty to me."

How are you doing now with bringing reality? And owning your half--your perception? I ask because what you believed was valid. When you confirmed that the numbers were erased, I don't believe you stated, "I believe you talked on your phone today with OM. I perceive your attitude towards to be sabotaging and disrespectful. I believe the two are related in your choices...to attack our relationship through continuing your infidelity and to undermine our connection and courtesy."

You're better with words, I believe...this is what I'm hoping is stated with ownership and reality.

And then to the lie to yourself...the lie hurt more than the attack on your marriage? Her lies of omission hurt more? What do you find when you trace that pain?

I know we've covered a lot of stuff since this post...this pertains to what we're talking about now...and what came to mind reading Diamondsj thread today.

If you choose the perspective that she sounded neutral before the negativity...then you are choosing to perceive with judgment. I did this a lot in my life...through my filter...and it felt like reality and it wasn't. When I chose to perceive and hear my filter...hear my judgment in expectation, evaluation...that crazymaking stuff I did in my pattern...then I really got how much my half of the perception/expectation stuff really affected what I experienced.

Expectations are premeditated resentments. LostHusband posted that. It was a wow-statement for me, so I'm sharing.

I do not doubt your radar in anyway. What I am questioning here is comes from your previous post...3/27/07's..."But I'm supposed to. I'm supposed to know my spouse, supposed to know what certain body language means. I'm faulted for not knowing these things by my W."

What I experienced was this same thing...only I was the demander...the flip side...to be known was to be loved and cherished...and I wanted my DH to mindread and react the way I wanted him to at all times. In order to do this, I had to label down my DH...love by evidence and mindread and DJ, as well...and I'm asking you to ferret out your beliefs, which I believe is to not know your WW, and come to know your real W, from respect and equality. This choice would aid you in yourself (knowing yourself knew); your marriage and understanding you have expectations based on HER belief inside yourself which are signalling pain from internal conflict.

You get what you expect. So does she. Can sure feel like a comfort pattern...you can choose to know it's crumbs, a false payoff.

"So I often make the choice to take a stab at it, after all, I might get close and live up to her expectation. Even though I know intellectually that I can't really know. Yet this goes beyond this for me. I used to walk down the street and look at people and see into their lives. Make judgments about what was going on between them and the person they were with, where they came from, what they did, etc."

Nothing that a writer doesn't do. A soul seeking to know and be known.

"I used think I came close with my deductions, despite how baseless they were."

Here's where the self-deception takes a pathway of connection in God's design and turns it into a downward spiral of human design. You chose to believe you may have come close...which is a lie to self...based on evidence of living and judging and calling it reality. Here's where there was a payoff of admiration and appreciation which was false...and yes, you know I'm going to cop to this one myself. I won't let you down.

Knowing what we don't know is a key choice in experiencing a free life. There is no false payoffs in reality. Only fantasy. Not something you fix in yourself...'cuz nothing is broken. Choosing to not know and being conscious of your choice is merciful and real. There is no greater imagination than the one which knows it's doesn't have to be right to exist.

"There was a sort of fun in it. Guess that ties in here - but the funny thought I have is that I think this skill is probably better with strangers than with those closest to me (because I'm less likely to project or mirror with strangers)."

Great self-caution...I'm asking you to extend the permission within inner circles to outward ripples...a desire, not a skill...there's no judgment of accomplishment...only ownership of choosing to do this...aware you get distraction, general human connection, where your attention was before you wandered and what your feelings are...you, the nexxus of self...possibly winging your way to see our entire human oneness. Judgment disconnects...deeming you come close or nail it...tells self others' judgment matters more than our own.

And we experience our spouses' judgment mattering more...and kick in the striving to meet their expectations to be safe. All the while knowing we are not safe...we are accepting abuse and calling it something else. We are disrespecting them and ourselves in the same way.

Just a thought.

Okay, a long thought.

And on grieving...so much to grieve...this is an on-going part of our discussion. I want to know you know you have choice in how you balance yourself...I did it through fantasy, false payoffs, assumptions and self-deception. Not recommended for you to try this at home. My truth was I was seeking balance...same way when we smooth over, fix others and ourselves...same desire, different results.

Now I'm asking you to balance with reality...you may have much to grieve...know you ARE grieving and have been...consciously or not, we do grieve. Acknowledge you have begun to grieve consciously. State this desire to yourself, "I want to grieve fully and well." That embraces...and we don't grieve embracing, accepting, appreciating, admiring, or acknowledging acts. We grieve the loss of them...the not's in life.

We grieve every expectation unfulfilled, even awful ones..."I thought I was going to get hit by that car!" and our adrenaline responds in our bodies, our emotions roil in a heartbeat...for our brains DID experience getting hit by the car...in a flash...because we thought we were and our brains don't know the difference...so in a nanosecond beyond our recall, we did experience what we did not. As we realize we didn't, we are grieving what didn't happen.

Same for bringing home flowers in a great mood and getting a sneer instead of a smile...if we banked on the smile, we grieve the loss from our own expectation...whether it was realistic or not...(is it realistic, truly, to expect our partners to share our moods through osmosis?)...a lot of our losses aren't real...grieving helps us to know the difference.

I've grieved car repairs, a broken toe, not getting anything for my anniversary (and then got a lot on that day)...not good or bad grieving...aware and owning...my own grieving...not someone else making me at all.

I remain grieving for all the people I've lost in my life, long ago mothers, grandmothers, friends...to retrace my grieving steps only to find missed steps, backing up and getting stuck...when I'd assumed time healed all wounds...not losses. Most recently working on losing my step mother and best friend. Helps with knowing what else I'm grieving, too.

Balance yourself to know what you're actively choosing to stay aware of, which is experiencing, and share with yourself...place no limits on how little or large a grievance must be...only to know you are grieving and what...then you'll be safe to grieve fully and well. For you.

LA

I'm hopping forward to your last post now.

Oh, yeah...my life goal is clarity.

LOL

"Yesterday, WW wanted to discuss separation. I told her in the past that I would discuss it with her once she was able to be independant. We set up concrete goals to define this (job, car, etc.). She revisited it yesterday stating that she had met these goals, despite the fact that she is in no position to be independant."

I'm a little confused...she stated she met the goals and still was in no position to be independent, is that correct?

I back you on not participating in a discussion about separation...definitely not behind you on the whys...to me, clear lives come from clear lines...I didn't discuss divorce with my WH...because my boundary was I didn't do divorce. I respected he could. I believe this would be the same for separation. My boundary, my goal...not about her actions. I wouldn't be dependent on his stuff to make mine...nor make his dependant on my stuff. Because I could not get to a new day doing it the old way.

Now, I hear a great opportunity to hold yourself to your agreement not to discuss separation...that's where you listen and repeat, and don't discuss. Great opportunity to state it..."You know I am holding myself to not discussing separation. I believe in our marriage. I believe one full year of no affair through no contact would change our relationship radically. I'm not holding you to my boundary...I will listen to your thoughts on the matter."

Then, you focus on listening and repeating and seeing her stuff fall to the floor in front of you...when she defines, blames, accuses and attacks...you do your progressive, predetermined boundary enforcements. No discussion.

What do you think?

Would it help with: "It frustrates me that she looks to me as if I have the power to control this."

Does it frustrate you when your children looked at you to control what you couldn't? Consider that waywardness is living mostly from our inner children...explains the mood swings, entitlement, resentment, lack of respect or ownership. Just a thought.

And frustration comes directly from expectation...what is your expectation for the way she looks at you and your power?

Btw, the most controlling statement there is..."You're controlling."

Twisty.

I think you've been living from that crazymaking gaslighting long enough. What do you think?

By choosing to listen and repeat, not discuss, she can accuse you all day of not discussing it...and you can agree with her. "You're right. This is my boundary around myself and I'm not discussing...I'm listening to you. I know you are my equal, fully capable of answering all your own questions. I appreciate you sharing your current thoughts."

I digress...did you agree to call 911 if she hits you again? I can't remember.

Goes to boundaries, so it's relevant. Just not in your last post.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ha! I just had the urge to put "your Honor" at the end of my last sentence. Then I thought...that makes sense. People can bring you their opinions, share their experience and beliefs...you're the head of the court and make all pertinent and final decisions...even temporary rulings. How 'bout that?

I knew it had nothing to do with the pretzels I'm dipping in Ranch Dressing...really.

The scene with your DS upstairs had me fuming on the first, second and third reads...and I was fuming at you! No kidding...you have a way of writing a scene to elicit response, sign of a good writer...not necessarily sign of growing human. And part of my fuming was Monday morning quarterbacking...which is often what I think my examples of what to say, how to stay stuff appears. It's not my intent. Mine is to pump you up with reality until you burst every fantasy corner.

"She went upstairs too, and while we were up there she asked DS "Do you want mommy or daddy to move into a new home?" I told her I thought that was really inappropriate."

Kudos for stating your truth.

"She responded "I've been through this and I wish I had been given choices. All you have done is read books, and pro-marriage books at that. If this is an inevitability, than he should have some say in what happens to him."

No kudos for not stating The Truth. "What you perceive as inevitable isn't inevitable. You are choosing to rip his family apart. You didn't have a say in your parents ripping yours apart. You had no power. Now you are half of the marriage and you are choosing to do this. That's not inevitable. That's you, choosing. Which is why this is emotionally abusive and highly inappropriate for you to ask our son that question."

"We shouldn't just decide his fate for him."

I don't see your response...and I think I noticed this before (fuzzy impression, might be another poster)...so I'm going to ask...did you bring reality to her right then, in the statement? "I hear you are saying you do not believe you decide his fate for him. You are deciding the fate of this family...busting it apart from your own beliefs and choices. Not deciding his fate. You are deciding your own and what you will live with for the rest of your life. Same place for me. I chose whole family, thriving. You are choosing differently right now."

"When we went back downstairs she still didn't want to talk about separation."

Now you're confusing me...first she does, and does, and then she still doesn't? Huh?

"Instead we talked through some of our issues in the relationship.

She told me that she thinks my priorities are all screwed up, that I take care of myself while the family suffers."

This is where you rephrase (first boundary enforcement)..."I hear you perceive that I have different priorities than you do; that I put myself ahead of my family, is that correct?" (yes) "I agree. I put my marriage ahead of my children...you're half of the marriage and I am the other half. We both rank first, in my book."

"I do things for myself while she does nothing for herself (i.e., playing in this band and my gym membership)."

"I hear you choose not to do things for yourself and choose to resent that I do, is that correct?"

"I told her I wished she would get involved in something just for her, that I think this is important."

Why did you not address the issue she was stating? What I hear is that you answered her statement instead of got to WHAT she was saying...which was that she chose not to...and then you made it about you...and btw, authorized affairs. A's are all about just for her. Good to know...would be great to call her on it...because what you're looking at is buying into her thinking and not maintaining your own. You automatically validated she was right, telling the truth...and she wasn't close to it.

"Anyway, I accept this to some degree. It's a matter of balance, and we didn't really POJA these issues because she was immersed in the affair at this point and I needed these outlets for my mental and physical health."

Was this an aside? Or did you share that with her?

"She also brought up that we have communication issues, saying that I tend to deal with abstracts while she doesn't. I shared with her this was one of those reasons I see us as being so good for each other because it really helps us both grow."

Again, you just said The Truth was what she said...which is HER truth...and no, not the heart of your communication issue, which is NOT listening...neither of you did this in your example...you're answering her stuff instead of clarifying or confirming. You're assuming. You're validating that which I don't think you really believe at all...I would love to know why you choose to repeat patterns like this...how that automatic response is really working for you? I did notice you insert the positive...a manipulative act...not from honesty, IMO.

Did you hear what she said? You two aren't capable of communicating because of your different personalities. That's what I heard. I would love to clarify, but she's not here.

"We each have a part of ourselves that views the world the way the other does, but it's not as developed. Being with someone that is more dominant that way helps with that growth and balance."

I believe that's part of why opposites attract...and due to God's designing us each uniquely, we have a ton of perceived opposites...so we can grow to see us all as one. What I hear you just did in your explanation was validate further that because you're opposite, you're a good match to communicate and grow with. Others wouldn't be. What does a WS look for in someone else? The opposite of their partners...and that's what the AP's appear to be at first...and over time, become very much LIKE their partners.

Not about matches because of who we are...it's about beliefs which make us who we are...and those change, don't they? Acting on those beliefs from respect determine good communication...listening is crucial to humans...I see you cutting down your own beliefs through not respecting...and you may repeat yourself (using different words) over and over again. Because you're doing this to you.

"She also mentioned my boundary issues and how they relate to her feeling smothered. For example, in the past I would hug her too much and she wouldn't tell me until the 10th time I did it. The I would stop for a while and then start doing it again. This is one of the reasons she doesn't think I can change. Because I do it for a little while and then revert to the way I acted before. Okay."

"I hear you do not choose to trust my changes based on my past choices to control myself, is that correct? I agree. I believe I do the same with you. I know you don't honor our marital boundaries, and I'm not sure what your boundaries are around yourself. For me, I've revoked my permission to continue my old patterns...new and then relapse. I was choosing new then to get something from you...change your feelings, your comfort levels. Which is why I failed to change. Now I can trust myself because I'm choosing to change for me."

MT--are you really? Would this be your truth?

And tell me why you held to the agreement that she felt smothered because of what you were doing? What if you stopped holding yourself to your agreement because it created resentment in you, entitlement and was a controlling request from your WW which perpetrated the lie you both live that you are responsible for her feelings and she is for yours?

"Some P/A behaviors were brought up and acknowledged. I thought it was actually a really good talk. We both shared and there was a real sense of connection. Afterwards she asked me in passing how I felt about the idea brought up by MIL/SFIL in the past of signing a separationg agreement but living in the same house. I told her I had no interest in this."

Big kudos here...sounds very respectful.

"If we were going to separate we would have to live in different homes. She got angry and resentful about this, telling me I was controlling, etc."

Again, most controlling/manipulative statement is "You're controlling." What boundary enforcement did you use for her defining you like that? Was it up to the third or fourth violation?

State it's abuse. State your boundary enforcement if she chooses to continue to abuse, and rephrase..."Is what you meant to say that you perceive I am controlling because I don't do divorce or LSA, I do marriage?"

"Telling me our talk before was wasted and she shouldn't have expected that I would be reasonable."

At the very least, that would have to have been the fifth or sixth boundary enforcement. Two hours before you returned, or more. How many were there that you didn't enforce?

"This, to me, is a striking example of her manipulative controlling."

She cannot control without your consent. She cannot manipulate without your consent. You were choosing to not state and address abuse...your choice. You did that. Your implied consent...staying present...is it because of your own DJs? Assuming she is attempting to control and manipulate where before you thought it was a good, connective talk and you chose to believe she was being honest?

"She gets angry when she doesn't get her way and then withholds love and affection and blames me for her anger. Oh well."

DJs are killing your marriage...hers and your own. Only you can control yours. The truth? He felt angry, manipulated and controlled. She felt sabotaged and denied. Doesn't make it the truth...only hers.

"Oh well" is abusive in my book. P/A behavior towards self, partner...a lie.

"I don't know, and I find it a bit strange considering she hasn't told me there's NC, so what's to hide?"

I'm so confused...you KNOW there's contact...so I don't understand this behavior at all...where's the truth in it? Where's the truth in your question? Where's the DJs?

"It sounds somewhat superficial here, but I think some real connecting occured. She did tell me, however, that she thought it was inappropriate for me to express affection for her! Well, things are what they are. I don't know whether to draw on this to support my hope, or just have no expectations and continue with my plans."

Which way do you want to live? Dependent on her stuff or your own?

LA

LA, thanks. I'm going to pick at this little by little today. There're some really significant points here, and you have illustrated where my thinking is self defeating in a couple of places. I want to start here:


Ok, I did state that neither of us know the future, and that what she is calling inevitable isn't necessarily so. I illustrated this with "what if I get hit by a bus tomorrow, are we going to separate? You gonna separate with a dead man?" But the real important thing I see has to do with your next couple of lines. I don't take this approach for one reason - to me, this is blame. This is me taking my perception of reality and making it objective. I believe she is trying to repair her childhood issues, the trauma in her life through this. It has nothing to do with our son.

So, I see blame as a problem in our relationship, yet I'm doing damage to the relationship by not speaking truth when it comes to pointing out her errors in judgment. See where I stick myself?


Yes, she was talking about accomplishing specific goals, yet the spirit of our agreement was totally ignored. This is part of her fantasy, that I can grant her a separation or divorce and all the stress will be lifted, she'll be able to carry on with the affair in a legitimized way, but there's absolutely no thought given to becoming a single mother, to caring for herself and her child.


I'm not sure what the whys are you are not backing me on. Let me just explicitely state what my whys are. I do not want separation, unless it's my choice to do so (going to plan B). If she is going to separate from me, I will discuss HER plans with her. This is so that I'm sure my son gets what's in his best interests and I do too. I will not plan the separation and I will not be a partner in it. This was what caused the breakdown in our conversation about it. She didn't want to own doing it. She was waiting for me to make suggestions about how to go about it, etc. I'm not making them. Until she's able to own that she's doing this, it's not going to happen (unless I decide to for myself). No dependency here on my side, that I can see. I see very clear lines when it comes to this, and I think this is one of the reasons I had a problem with our MC. She was pushing me to cross my own boundary and be a partner in "taking this relationship apart".

I see the opportunity you point out. I think it's a little stronger than my boundary as it is now. I am somewhat willing to discuss her plans with her. I am considering not discussing anything, but to me this seems like stonewalling.


This is something very clear and tangible and I think I need to say it.


And a good analogy at that!


I expect her to be an adult, to recognize her own power. To not look at me as the reason she doesn't have what she chooses not to use.

But, at the same time, I know expecting this is not realistic. Her thinking is not on this plane right now. For example, in our "good" talk the other night, she mentioned that I don't do what I should do, what has to be done. I asked her if she would please take ownership of what she'd like to see me do rather than state it as a universal. She told me it was a universal, not a preference. I pointed out that people do or don't do because of their choices, that your preference for the consequences of either doing or not doing something are what drive you. If you want to live in a really clean home, it's your preference, your need. You're not going to die or get sick if it doesn't get done.

She told me I was wrong, that there are things that just need to get done. She said "what about brushing DS's teeth, that needs to get done, right? No preference there."

I responded that clearly, we prefered his teeth didn't rot out of his head. We could certainly choose not to brush his teeth (or ensure he brushes them), but the consequence of this is a strong deterent. She shook her head in disagreement.

This goes back to a conversation we had a while back where she was talking about how she always listened to her parents and never did anything they told her not to. Her brother, on the other hand, did anything he wanted, and the consequence imposed by their parents was the price he had to pay. He would bend right over and take the spanking, happy that he had done what he wanted. She said she resented that he always got to do what he wanted. She doesn't, however, recognize her choice in this. She sees it as differential treatment by her parents, different personalities, etc. What it comes down to is personal choice. I'm not sure, however, if she was so much aware of the consequences vs. the idea that "you just don't do this".


I do. Help me better find clarity through this.


I will call the police.


Me too. I do the same thing, replay scenes in my head, think of the perfect thing to say, the perfect response. Never comes in the moment though. I guess I was somewhat in shock because of what she said, and I'm sure some of my portraying it in a dramatic light, showing the fault in her actions, is an attempt to blameshift from my lack. My lack of sufficient protecting of my son, my lack of confronting my WW on her harmful words, my lack in clarity on exactly why it felt so wrong that she said what she did to him.


Okay, bad word choices here. She wouldn't tell me what she wanted to do as far as separation goes. She wanted to have a discussion, but she didn't speak her mind, instead she focused on how I was preventing the conversation from happening. Because of these facts I made the judgment that she didn't want to talk about it unless I did something. She was making this conversation dependant on me, and unless I played the part she wanted/expected me to, she didn't want to speak. I upheld my boundary when we went downstairs, while being open to listen to her, and she still chose not to speak her mind. Really, what was there to talk about when she isn't in a position to be independant?

I'm going to stop here, but I'll be back!

As always, thanks!

Continuing. . .


I'm not sure. I guess this is still covered under the whole "don't want to blame" thing. I chose to communicate my thoughts and desires, not to address her preconceptions.


I see the hypocrisy in her attacks. I guess I see the fact that she's attacking me this way as proof that she feels bad about these very things. She may be in denial right now, or she might be avoiding looking at these facts by blaming me, I don't know, but does calling her on this stuff really do anything beyond contributing to the negativity? Isn't it blame? I recognize also that I heard something beyond what she was talking about, I translated it and responded to that rather than what she was really saying. I wasn't really listening.


An aside. She already says to me "you justify whatever you do" so I don't justify my choices to her (even if I call them reasons I chose what I did).


I did imply agreement, didn't I? My refusal to apply these listening techniques keeps kicking my butt. Argh. (Interesting how you start asking "why" questions when you seem frustrated with my actions.) What's the payoff? Really? I don't really think the mention of the positive was manipulative, I think it was sharing my perspective. I can see why you see it as manipulative though, an attempt to dispute the basis of her beliefs.


Yes, I heard this. And I hear this all the time. We aren't capable of doing anything.


I see this too. I'm not sure the specifics of it, just a general theme that pops up over and over again.

I realized something somewhat significant about how my upbringing plays into this marriage. I wasn't allowed to choose my own path growing up. I had no choice but to do what my parents told me - but I asserted my choice into how it was done. I'm still playing this out now. I want to make my own choices and be myself, and I do this to the detriment of my relationship. I see my choices taken away when they're not really. Furthermore, I am reactive in this determination. I almost need someone telling me what to do so I can resist and do it my way. This doesn't get anyone anywhere. It's not functional for the relationship nor for me individually. The payoff is false.


Am I really choosing to change? Yes. This is my truth. I have a hard time really understanding what I am changing because I haven't identified who I was, what was wrong. I refused to label myself, and still do to a certain extent. I live halfway between human doing and human being. What I did never really defined me in my eyes, yet it did. I always resisted labels. I did something, but wouldn't play the part in its entirety just to avoid application of a label. I think this still is true. I'm always looking for reasons labels don't apply to me.

I don't think I could have come up with what you propose I should have said to her.


Wow. I don't know what to say to this. She told me that she felt smothered by specifics. My expression. I guess I resent not being able to express myself. She resents that I do what I want to - I express my feelings because I feel good about it. One of the things we discussed that brought the topic of P/A behavior to the table was:

I whistle sometimes. Gives me a sense of peace and happiness. She tells me that my whistling annoys her. Tells me to stop it. She says she notices I whistle more when I am angry at her (I haven't noticed this, but if it's really P/A, I wouldn't). I whistle when she tells me not to, in defiance. She assumes this is because I want to hurt her, I want to make her angry. I clarified that it really has nothing to do with her, and more to do with myself. I don't like being told not to do something I want to do. This is one of those minor things that she uses to support her truth that I don't care about her feelings. She makes it all about her - egocentric, childlike. I make it all about me. Why shouldn't I whistle if I want to? Her annoyance is her issue. But yet, to coexist, compromise is a must. See where my lack of clarity gets me trapped? I see both sides, both truths and I don't have a sense of which is right. Which I believe in enough to make a sticking point.


I didn't define her behavior as such, and I didn't enforce boundaries because of this. My statement of abuse has led to her throwing around this term too. It seems counter productive to some degree, especially with my high tolerance for it. Also, isn't it abusive to always percieve you're under attack? If I am calling her out on things all the time, am I not falling into abusive behavior myself?


Ok, I like your statement here.


Not sure. You counted many I didn't.


I said this wrong. I was pointing out her methods, her habit, not that she actually controlled me. I feel totally mixed up because whenever I present a conversation WW and I have, I come out looking foolish, like I'm doing nothing right, I'm not growing or changing. (I asked myself in my head "what's wrong with me") I don't see so much. I guess maybe I still have blinders on, I'm still living half in fantasy.


Interesting. Why? I think it's a statement of detachment, acknowledging it's hers, not mine.


Yeah, I know there's contact, so I was confused by her attempt at secrecy. I jumped to the conclusion that she was hiding something from me based on her actions. What and why she was hiding, I don't know.


I want to live my life, not live for someone else. I don't want to play games, sacrifice myself in order to fit into someone else's fantasy to build their phony self image. I sometimes wonder if I was having an affair with my wife all these years and am only just now learning how to have a real relationship. . . .

MT,

I'm reading that you feel like you're doing it wrong...doing your marriage wrong...

Would you consider what I point out to be an intent alignment check, sorta, under your hood?

You say you want to live in reality, from respect and in truth. That means you take that as your goal, and then set your intent.

Purify it...I want to live in reality, from respect and in truth for me, because that's who I really am.

To live in reality and from respect, in truth...we listen and repeat. We choose to do this to cut out the noise in our heads...the DJs...which aids us in our sub-goal to act, not react. This is a purpose-filled life.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

We do it to really know and be really known. Our highest human mandate from our design...

Check these motivations desires, wants...check your goal, and when you feel like you're doing wrong...check your intent.

Right there...in the moment. Ahhh! Many times I have checked my intent and found it to be "I wanna win! I wanna be right!!" Self-image intent...not self intent.

LOL

Because these eyes you are looking into was the woman you wanted to be your partner for the rest of your life...so close in your heart, your other self...most prized reflection...until she stopped reflecting you as you wished (self-image) and no longer liked how you reflected her...

Not because she was broken or you were...because choosing to live from our reflected images is constant, unyielding self betrayal. Not real. Fantasy.

So...to live in reality, from respect, and in truth...you listen and repeat. There are no longer arguments because you do not allow yourself to argue, fight, refute...you truly want to listen to really hear...to get to know your own filter...this is the very basis of knowing and being known. Only WAY to know...is from respect. The rest is fantasy and DJs...assumptions and mindreading...living reactively.

You've tried that, seems to me. Don't want that NOOOOOO Mo'...as my parents used to say.

You have to shake your head slowly, side to side, when you say in a sad, deep, blood-hound drawl. Then nod, slowly.

Okay.

You found out you weren't really listening. Wasn't your intent, was it?

What was your intent?

Could be to mind your boundaries...you didn't want her to cross your no-separation-talk boundary...you were watching for it, on guard...minding your borders...oh, wait. There is no discussion if you don't share your stuff. Okay. You're safe from her making you discuss.

So you didn't listen and repeat and call it what it might have been...her sharing her desire to discuss it anyway. Listen and repeat guaranteed she would be heard and you would know her stuff right now. Trusting yourself to only listen and repeat seemed to be an issue.

If you're bad and wrong, you aren't trustworthy, right? You'll screw it up and find yourself discussin' separation!!

I'm exaggerating because I'm revealing that I did all this, too...walked my borders without knowing I had boundary lines at all...I'd stated something I wouldn't do, next thing I know, he's got me doing it!!! Power struggles are signals we fear more where we will end up than KNOWING we only go there by choice.

For a reason.

You identify your false payoffs really way. You owned something huge from your past and really saw this dynamic at play in your marriage...from you, to you, about you.

Sure seemed her doing it, didn't it? Really experienced her doing it to you...making you.

I'm not nagging by repeating. I will continue to show you your power, your limits and choices...not because you're doing it wrong, stupid, thick, slow...because no one is...because it's like we marinated in a certain mixture all our lives until now...and we've showered (gotten the big concept of respect, choosing to love, living in truth), scrubbed under our nails...then noticed behind our ears...between our toes...slowly ferreting out that marinade...and not even getting to a thousand layers of epidermous, into our blood, our organs, the space between our organs, hearts, brains and minds...all the ways we have steeped in fantasy and expect to walk out, once showered...so we can then resume bashing ourselves with fantasy.

LOL

Why it's a process not perfection. Why it changes the whole wide world, too...infectious, impactful...and you can feel awe from it one day, into your marrow.

I promise.

Good to know you hear disapproval and judgment. Where's that coming from? Who wrote that taped perception you choose to play in your head?

Came before WW.

Came before...long before...from whom?

Because surely (and yes, I'm calling you Shirley) you cannot know you're whole, complete, not right or wrong and marvelously made from love (every molecule)) when others, all your life, have defined you differently. Told you who you are, what you feel, why you do, what motivates you, what traits you have and don't have...what you should believe, feel, think and perceive...which ARE all attacks...so you must be bad.

What if you believed, loved, admired, accepted, exhaled deeply, yourself anyway? What if you chose without evidence, actualities, past conduct, to define your self and not allow others to define you for one more moment longer?

Who would you be then?

Halfway between a human doing and a human being...there are galaxies smaller than that gap.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

You just want it all, eh? Like the labels...doding them...not doing enough of one to get that stuck...not enough of the other...which is basing your choices on others' definitions instead of on your own passion, desires and code.

See where WW didn't make you? She matches you.

You're not bad...you will surely feel awful each time you do not enforce your boundaries, each time you do not listen and repeat...

You lose self-respect in this choice...and the loss of what you didn't gain is a chunk.

You lose self-trust in this choice, because you self-betray...knowing if you don't hold yourself to that boundary, you cannot hold others.

I didn't see any boundary enforcements. I believe your intent is to live from respect...hold yourself to your boundaries and enforce them when others cross. She crossed a lot...and so did you.

Process not perfection. And tomorrow, I'll get to "I don't want anyone to tell me what to do."

Reasonable. Real.

(time for grandbaby time!!)

LA

Sometimes I do. Adjusting alignment is comparable to managing the direction of a car through the steering wheel (I know I'm mixing metaphors here!), maintanance, adjusting, rather than fixing. I feel like I have all these parts I need to replace, major overhauls, like replacing square wheels with round ones. Maybe wrong's the wrong word, I mean I suppose a car designed to run on square wheels could get you from a to b (and aren't wrong then), but round ones do a better job.


And this is the part I have yet to bolt on, because I don't know what part to remove in order to get this on. I can't figure out the function of what I need to replace, what the payoff is.


I'm not sure she ever really reflected me the way I wanted to be seen. I think part of the significance in what I brought up yesterday from my past shows my desire to do things despite the odds stacked against me, to persist in my will, to go against adversity. I guess this ties into seeing persevering through the abuse as a strength of mine, to some degree, but something I'm dependant on to prove strength, which is sort of antithetical to strength. Sort of a tangent here, but to respond to your statement, I think some of my W's draw was that she never saw me as I wanted to be seen, and this was a challenge, but also a curse. Does this make any sense?


No, it wasn't. My intent was to share my truth, hoping she'd accept it as her own, that it would give her pause to question her truth. My intent was to hang on to what I believe for fear of losing it. For fear of getting caught up in her thinking. For fear of her thinking that I implicitly agreed with what she was saying. A few reasons, not all of them, I think.


I agree it was an issue. When I fumble through this exercise, I feel clumsy, unnatural. I screw it up. I feel like I sound foolish. So this is one reason I don't trust myself to do it, because I haven't been able to get it right. I get clouded, can't recall what it was exactly she said through the flooding I experience.


I like this. It's about trying to control where we're going. If we don't talk about something, then it won't happen. Struggling to control the direction of the conversation is an attempt to prevent it going somewhere I don't want to go and ignores my power to not discuss something, regardless of whether the conversation touched on the subject or not.


Interesting coincidence. This morning I read the section in Bradshaw about the inner voice. I forget who he quoted, but they said that people tend to get very defensive when someone else criticizes or somehow otherwise touches on an area that they criticize themself for. I think this is true in this situation too. Yes, I'm sure the emotional energy in the dynamic in my marriage is mostly from my childhood, my personal struggles. The trigger comes from her actions. So yes, she may be doing something, but my reaction is 1 part attributable to her actions and 9 parts my history and the personal significance I give such actions.


I'm pretty sure it originated from my father, but not positive. Strange to think about now because he is so understanding and tolerant now. Very different than when I was young, when he was domineering, intolerant, angry, etc. Or at least this was how I saw him.


I do, or a part of me does. It's not complete, because the critic reserves the right to judge even when proud.


Me. No different than I am now. Because nobody defines me, but me. I may choose to do so incorporating others' perspectives, but it's always me doing.


Yup, avoiding them even to my detriment.


Well, I did once or twice, but I don't really think it's significant.


I can't wait for this!

Got that sick feeling in the pit of my stomach again. There are just no rules for where we are right now, and it's making things difficult. WW complained that I made a purchase on the credit card (for about $14 - trivial, the purchase, not her feelings) for a gift for DS's friend's birthday. She tells me I should have known not to use the card, etc. I tell her that I think that's fine going forward, and I agree to not using it because she feels it unfair. She doesn't accept this, but rather starts talking about how I'm irresponsible, etc, and how this is yet another example of how my impulsivity is taking away from our family. I told her that we had addressed the issue at hand and I was sorry she was upset (she tells me that I do this and then she has to stress about it, it weighs over her head and makes her unhappy, etc. - making me responsible for her feelings). She still doesn't let it go and starts talking about how I spent all this money in the grocery store on things only I will eat, and it takes away from the family. She talks about how I take care of my own needs before the family.

I responded that saying that is like the pot calling the kettle black. I stated that she seemed to think that I was misusing family resources, denying the family what it is entitled to. I mentioned that she was doing the same thing with her emotional resources by having the affair. She started to get defensive, telling me that I had no idea how much emotional energy went into that. She also didn't like that I implied that she wasn't giving her energy to her child.

There was a point where she defined me, and I told her that that was abusive. She then returned this by referring to this, that had been discussed earlier in the conversation:

We were talking about the purchase on the card and I said that now we were in agreement, I wouldn't use it anymore.
WW: That doesn't mean anything to me. You say you'll do something and then don't do it. It's how you operate.
M: I'm sorry you choose to believe that.
WW: What do you mean? I have seen this happen for six years. You always have an excuse or justification for anything.

She referred back to me telling her I was sorry she chose to believe this, telling me this was abusive, because I was speaking my opinion as fact.

I told her that I was leaving to go back to work and she said "right, this conversation's over because you don't want to participate in it anymore. You can't win it, so you get up and leave."

I told her I was sorry she was so focused on winning and losing.

She threw a small mirror at the wall near where I was standing. I told her that I thought that was a really poor example to set for DS, who was standing with her at the time (he walked in very near the end of this). She said "Oh, am I a bad girl? Is daddy going to punish me now?"

I am really starting to feel like I don't want to be in this sort of conversation anymore. I feel like we can't have a conversation as equals. I am happy to take responsibility for my mistakes and find solution to either repair the damage or prevent the same mistake in the future. But this isn't good enough. It's constantly about blame when I'm talking to her. It must be truly awful to regard herself this way, because I have no doubt this is just the externalization of what goes on inside her, but it's not nice being on the receiving end of it either.

I start feeling more and more entitled. I'm entitled to have a nice life, whether she's a part of it or not. I'm not here to manage her feelings, yet I'm constantly berated and emotionally beaten up because of how she feels. I utilize appeasement strategies that end up with me sacrificing things in my life so she gets the sense that she has control. I constantly struggle to answer the question of whether I'm in the right as far as what I'm doing with my life, because it does involve other people. WW chooses not to do things for herself, but she also takes the position that my doing for myself takes away her opportunity. BS, but it's her truth, her reality. More and more I wish I could just be done here. The negativity is overwhelming, and while I can roll with the punches I just don't find it honest to relate to someone that blows everything out of proportion, creates drama, and chooses to see the worst in everything as if it's fact.

I was talking with my parents last night and they mentioned a book in which the writer marries a schizophrenic. She gets better and he becomes an alchoholic. I see the combined trajectory of our relationship pulling her up and me down. Limited. I know I've made my choice and committed to a certain responsibility in my life. Now's not the time to play with the idea of making this choice again - it's made. Buyer's remorse or not, I am in this for the long haul. I just have a difficult time aligning my intentions with adapting to this situation. The hurt for my child, the lack of positive affect between his parents being modeled is sickening to me - all because of her selfishness. In our conversation this afternoon, he came down and WW said to him that we were fighting and that he should go upstairs. I told him that I loved him and I also loved mommy. She responded by telling him: "no he doesn't".

When you said if she hit you again, that you would call the police. If she hits you with something else, you'll call the police. If she throws a mirror near you against the wall (an act of violence and a big safety violation with your son standing near her)...you didn't call the police?

Again, I didn't seen any boundary enforcements...stating you're leaving because it's time to get back to work isn't a boundary enforcement.

Yes, you are being blamed, shamed, abused and you are telling her YOU are sorry for her beliefs, her opinions, her feelings.

I don't know what addressing the issue at hand means..."My understanding was that we would buy <blank> on this credit card, with a $15 limit." Open to her having agreed to one thing and you to another, not saying she's wrong...owning your own understanding...you may feel an issue is addressed and she may not feel that because it wasn't addressed fully.

I hear your intent is to defend yourself from her...instead of enforce boundaries around you. You're worth the boundaries..you're worth more than defending...which is taking the attack.

I understand the wistfulness...the if onlys...and I believe in your commitment to get this lesson. For you and your son, your marriage, your whole life...

Until you predetermine your actions, I don't believe you will listen and repeat or enforce. And I believe you'll hear the THWACK of the handmirror hitting the wall when she says, "no he doesn't" and again, "you're irresponsible" and again "you're selfish" "you can't win it so you get up to leave" again. She's defining you.

You're apologizing to her for her opinions...which is a big ouch, too. You define her back...that you're sorry for how focused (definition) on winning and losing. You didn't own it. No, that doesn't make you a bad person...and I believe that's why you feel attacked by my posts at times, because when I point out what you do that she does, because you are looking at her as an abuser, that means you do abusive actions, too.

Which hurts like ******.

I know. I remember.

Would you consider calling CPS for an evaluation? Would be very brave and show that you're taking both of your choices in the ways you communicate very seriously. Only consider if you are...for your child is hurting as you are...as your WW is...it's all a swirl, and may understandably seem that fixing her fixes everything. Not reality.

She can't be fixed. She's not broken.

I've said that before...I've asked you to respect her, her own stuff...as hers...listen and repeat...to know, not to judge...and enforce your boundaries. You chose not to. What if I said stop dishonoring yourself by refuting, taking on the fight through explaining and defining back? If you honor yourself, you'll have to honor her and see her stuff as hers...and when I say don't judge...IDENTIFY verbal abuse...DO NOT ACCEPT IT. Judgment to me means DEFINING her back...P/A statements like you're sorry she feels, thinks or believes something...instead of restating what you heard her say, rephrasing with ownership...

"all because of her selfishness."

Wow, really? No wonder you're hurting twice as deeply...not only did you take her abusive actions, which betrayed you, then you gave your own (no measure as to who did what worse here...just the truth that she did, you did), which generates more pain inside...and then this...it's all her...you're powerless, done to, hopeless in that statement. And you're hearing from her what gets her goat is that she sees it as all your fault. The spiral continues, seems to me.

Pain all around...you hurting for you, your child and your marriage...would you consider you are too used to hurting, rather than taking action? Reasonable boundaries are reasonably enforced. Because you judge her as dramatic, then calling the police may seem dramatic to you for a thrown object. It isn't. It's how enablers get in the way of their target's consequences...so the cycle continues.

We trip ourselves like this all the time in our judgments..."I can't do that, then I'd be like him!" Instead of, "I am choosing to do this because it's in my code. This is my act to sit in reality, and act from love and respect. She chose to attack through violence. I didn't make her nor is documenting it through 911 me making it into a drama."

Could this not enforcing predetermined boundaries be what she means most by promising to do something and then, not doing it? Not that you promised her...would you consider that this was my main taunt at my DH when he wouldn't enforce his boundaries from my abuse? I wouldn't have seen this at the time...yet it fits now, in retrospect.

I'm in my own stuck-cycle today. I'm stopping here because I am hearing my own words back and have found where I'm disrespecting in my life right now.

Gotta get my hands on that log in my own eye, once I figure out how to get my glasses off.

LA

LA, thanks for your response.


She didn't hit me. She made it clear that she was throwing it at the wall.


I did do some progressive enforcement - I identified abuse, told her that I would remove myself if it continued. There's so much hostility that it's difficult for me to discern between her frustration and difficulty with the situation and mistreatment of me.


What I meant by addressing the issue at hand is that I accepted reponsibility for doing something that she was not in agreement with, and something that wasn't totally in line with the spirit of the plan/budget we created, and I tried to both remedy the mistake (suggested we take some cash from the budget line and pay this puchase off the card) and agreed not to use the card again for this sort of purchase. I'm not debating blame. I'm focused on the problem and finding solutions. This ties right into your next statement:


She was not satisfied with addressing the issue. Her objective was to show me how wrong I was. She was trying to show me that I did wrong because I am wrong. I suppose I should have enforced boundaries at this point. I don't question my worth as a person. It's not debatable.


My instinctual reaction to all of this is to withdraw. I want to remove myself. I fight against this because it destroys connection, degrades the relationship. This is my faulty polarized thinking here. I think it would be more effective to acknowledge my desire to withdraw, but make it temporary. I think, however, that my WW could really stand to face the reality of the consequences of her choices. I continue to protect her from them. I continue to enable her. What do I do to stop this? Do I split us up? Walk away for now and not talk to her?


I wouldn't say telling her that I'm sorry she thinks something, or feels something, etc, is apologizing. I'm expressing my feeling - and yes, my judgment of her beliefs, etc. It's like telling a murderer that I'm sorry he believed he had to do what he did. No apology, acknowledges his reality, yet also acknowledges how the beliefs that define this reality don't mesh well with true reality.


So if I had inserted a "you seem to me to be" where you put "(definition)" in that statement my ownership would have negated this abuse? Isn't it implied that this is my opinion? Isn't everything I say my opinion? Because it's stated by me, it's owned by me, no? I'm not disupting here, but rather trying to increase my understanding.


I agree, and I am on the lookout for things like this. I have to say that I don't really feel attacked by your posts though. I'm very open to seeing myself doing wrong, and when you point things out I appreciate it.


I will consider this. I have thought about getting him into therapy before.


I acknowledge that I sometimes get trapped in this fantasy thinking. The one thing that really keeps me centered though is focusing on good parenting. I have a great relationship with my boy, and furthermore I think we discuss things in very deep and real ways. He gets lots of resources from our relationship to better make his own choices about what he thinks.


I agree she's not broken, but she's perpetuating bad habits. Passing things down that harmed her. I have the same propensity, and I'm aware of this as I go. Conscious, questioning, aware. I know I've chosen not to be automatic at times, and the more aware I am, the more mindful I am with him. With WW I seem to be unable to do this. There's a block to my clarity.


I think I've made progress with this. I don't call her an abuser, I tell her that an action is abusive, and I have a perdetermined enforcement. I think it's still too specific to a certain action (my label dodging working against me here), because I find myself abused in different ways after I've identified something and see it as distinct.


Yes. Taking action is not my strong suit. Hasn't been before. Can be now. I would like it to be. I used to react to pain by going limp. Withdrawing. I can't do that anymore, on any level.


Could be. It certainly fits the pattern.

Thanks again LA. I feel like I'm letting people down. You, my son, my WW, her family, my family, my self. I know I can do this. I know it's only me that's stopping myself. Why?

"Thanks again LA. I feel like I'm letting people down. You, my son, my WW, her family, my family, my self. I know I can do this. I know it's only me that's stopping myself. Why?"

You can feel like you're letting people down...if you belive you are--and in reality, you're not. Get to know that you are not letting anyone down...they have their own expectations and you have yours...see if YOURS is reasonable.

How did she make it clear that she was throwing the hand-mirror at the wall, not you? Did state it? And do you throw stuff in your house? Not nerf balls or pillows...do you throw stuff which shatters into shards? Do you throw objects when you feel rage, extreme frustration? Is it intimidating? Do people flinch when objects are thrown? Is it a violent act?

I want to get to your own base permissions for abuse. I had the inner permission that if I were angry enough, if my spouse pushed me far enough, then I could be violent...I used words, pitch, tone and sheer volume...I was threatening through body language and facial expressions...I acted violently without physically touching my DH...battery by words...assault by legal definition...

She didn't throw the mirror because she didn't like it anymore and missed the waste basket.

She threw it to express something...what matters is how your son and you felt when she did this.

Here's a counseling website in Oregon:

http://www.oregoncounseling.org/Handouts/DomesticViolenceMen.htm

And the article deals specifically with domestic violence against men..."For men or women, domestic violence includes pushing, slapping, hitting, throwing objects, forcing or slamming a door or striking the other person with an object, or using a weapon."

Same in Wikipedia...and 223,000 other website hits I got from searching "domestic violence" throwing objects...and yes, some of them may say that "throwing objects is not abuse"...I didn't have the time to click on all of them. Legall, it's in there. Check your city, county and state laws.

Why?

Would you allow your son to throw the hand-mirror against the wall if he "I want to. I'm angry and I want to do this."? I don't think so. Punch or scream into a pillow...saw a lot of wood...smash aluminum cans...not throw objects in the house.

I listed all of these...and I believe them. I believe even throwing a mirror, a vase, a shattering to flying shards object in the house, even away from the partner, is an act of bullying...it is acting out. Doesn't state or own. Still endangers and doesn't communicate.

Look at the others, MT...get to know them. They aren't monsters doing this...people choosing and others choosing not to get out of the way of their consequences.

They don't want to look like the mean parent, the bad guy, the one who called the cops on their spouse. They don't want to rock the already precarious boat...they don't want to be seen as victims, as weak...and they don't want to be seen as bullies themselves, call in authorities over every little thing...wasn't dangerous, didn't hurt...judging the results by physical harm and ignoring the mental/emotional wreckage.

You get to decide if you want to be seen as strong...or BE strong...reasonable, respectful...or do you want to be seen as the good guy...or BE human, non-judgmental and set boundaries around yourself...you throw stuff during a discussion and you go out to talk to the cops you called. You yell, lose self-control...you stop, state what you are doing as abusive and remove yourself for 20 minutes.

Okay...I've said all this before...now I'm moving up to "WOW" to your reaction to pain going limp...that was my DH. I had no idea people did this...when I hurt, I hurt back...automatic permission...to get the other person to stop hurting me...no shut down involved. My DH did the shut down and out...neither are real solutions because neither are real...

So, taking action isn't taking action...it's stating what you hear, the truth of the abusive act and then the boundary enforcement...reasonable, respectful and invoves choice from both sides. You may feel very full of self-doubt to state what is and what isn't...because she's told you what is and what isn't for a very long time...and before, that, others did...and in your own way, you decided what is and what isn't...and nodded along with the others telling you...yet you held your own to yourself. Creates self-doubt and doubt in others.

Living in doubt is like inertia...no forward motion, no backward motion...and in human translation, can feel very much like running in place, full out...

Different than a self-check, an intent alignment...if you don't trust yourself to know what is and isn't...and you don't trust others to know what is and isn't (which sounds reasonable in your scenario)...then where can you act? What power do you have? Who the heckfire are you?

All roads lead back to self...not a shred of failing, a disappointment or a judgment here, MT...you are a miracle of being. You are. You cannot truly fail or disappoint or be disapproved of...no miracle can be. You are only and entirely you.

You are another reason to praise God all the time.

What if you're stopping yourself...

- from unrelated doubt, result of being bullied and bullying yourself...

- because you have not really revoked your permission to manipulate, act based on possible response...way to scary and free fall...

- because you have "tried everything" prior to this and one more thing my break your heart into pieces you fear you'll never be able to recover...

- because you always have to be the one to change, to do, to fix, to not do, to give in...to prove what, exactly?

- because ... you tell me.

My belief is when you were withdrawing, you knew that was abusive as well...which is why you questioned how is boundary enforcements not withdrawal...takes a very present person to call the police department to report domestic violence and ask for an assessment officer to your home. No withdrawal in that. State the boundary, enforce the boundary...predetermined, progressive. First we have fists, then we have throwing...find the patterns, revoke your permissions and act...you are the reality bringer...you may well dislike it as much as WW does. Good to know. Not judging. Conflict Avoidance is verbal abuse in my book...it is lying by omission to manipulate a boat from being rocked, unsettled...and it's really all about comfort zones, manipulative choices and wanting desperately to control outcome, and pretend we aren't trying to control other humans.

Has self-deception in it, too.

When you know your code, and choose to act from it, holding great fear, and acting anyway, then you'll know you why you were stopping yourself in the first place.

Yours to get to...remember, there is alluring power in blame...it's false. If you take all the blame, you have all the power...and you get all the credit.

Any part of reality really in that? Nah...sure can experience it as if that's real.

You're a part of your own swirl...write down what verbal abuse is to you...what you found in yourself (withdrawing), what form that took, for what purpose, and what was your true intent...then you'll be able to identify that in others.

Same for being defined--includes name calling, action telling (uses adjectives), mindreading and assumptions. All those are real categories...find what you call them, how you hear them, and simple statements to identify them. She isn't unusual or genius...she hasn't thought up new ways to abuse...

Nor have you. Find all your "coping skills" and huge permissions...what do you say when she says, "That's abusive. Stop."? Is it a valid response? Is it what you know...does it hurt to hear it?

The block to your clarity...is it knowing where this was handed to her, just like yours was? Are you in anyway less accountable? Is she?

For clarity - "? Isn't it implied that this is my opinion? Isn't everything I say my opinion?"

So when others say, "You're controlling, selfish" isn't it implied that's their opinion? Isn't everything they say their opinion? When you were a child and your younger brothers said, "You're selfish. You're mean." did you know that was their opinion...or in your quest to define yourself, find out who you were through characteristics, actions as character...did you take that inside you, where it resides, and now, when you hear it echoed, you're defined again?

Yes, we firmly know others' opinions...stating them as fact...given all our schooling in "fact" there is critical overlap. You can't get ownership from stating as fact...nor hearing opinions stated that way. Rephrasing is as respectful to others as it is to yourself "I hear you choose to view me as controlling and selfish." Huge difference on the inside and the outside. Perception is a choice...perspective is a choice...belief is a choice...thought is a choice. The more you rephrase, state what is defining...the better you communicate and own yourself...know yourself...that you can act mean, you can act selfish, you can even desire to control...doesn't mean for one second you ARE mean, selfish or controlling, does it?

Mutuality isn't born from back down...that's disconnecting. Mutuality isn't staying present for defining because it is the distraction we use to turn away our own stuff...breaks connection with self and others. Don't be a party to it. Find and maintain your own lines...your boundaries around yourself...so that you in no way have false profit from her defamation.

To know and be known...to share and enforce...do you really want to know your W? (WW aside) Do you really want to hear her stuff as hers and not take it as your own? To say you're sorry for her stuff?

"I wouldn't say telling her that I'm sorry she thinks something, or feels something, etc, is apologizing. I'm expressing my feeling - and yes, my judgment of her beliefs, etc."

So it's okay for you to judge her beliefs, feelings, thoughts...and not for her to judge yours? If I said, "I think you're being unreasonable trying to save a marriage when there's infidelity present. That's ludicrous to me." Would you sincerely state, "I'm sorry you feel that way?" Or would you say, "I hear you do not believe you would endeavor to save a marriage after infidelity, is that correct?"

That's respect. Saying you're sorry for what someone else believes, how they perceive. You step over the reality that they are not you...their opinion is their own. Just that--and valid. It's theirs. Do you want to respect others and yourself, see each other as truly separate and equal...or do you want to judge, more. I understand. Judging can feel like safety, security, firm ground (and non-judgment full of fear and drowning in quicksand, drowning on dry land), and full of if only you thought the way I do then we could be happy. Not real. Not even close to true.

"It's like telling a murderer that I'm sorry he believed he had to do what he did. No apology, acknowledges his reality, yet also acknowledges how the beliefs that define this reality don't mesh well with true reality."

Your beliefs aren't reality, MT. Nor are mine. They are who we really are...they are our reality...not others'. You may be sorry a human life was taken...you remain defining and judging when you state you are sorry someone else believed what he did...trace that to your wishful child that if only others believed differently, there would be no sorrow, anger, pain in the world...is that close?

Am I hearing you correctly that you stating you feel sorry she feels, believes a certain way isn't abusive? Or are you saying "I wish you didn't feel what you feel" sound better?

I'm not sorry you believe this, MT. I want to be clear on what you believe--not to judge, to know. To know you right now...my desire to not DJ, not assume.

I found this interesting thread "http://www.yourdictionary.com/cgi-bin/agora/agora.cgi?board=idiom;action=display;num=1124371252" and I adore what this person wrote:

""I'm sorry you feel that way"
On the face of it, this sounds polite and even actually an apology, but It's really not. It's saying, I'm not responsible for whatever silly notion you've filled your head with, and basicaly "get over it".

It reminds me of a tagline I wrote a long time ago:
"And don't get mad at me for successfully inferring what you took pains to imply"

Kt"

This isn't about you splitting up, walking away and not talking, nor acting on anything that isn't a boundary enforcement...progressive and predetermined steps which you apply to all enforcements, with anyone. No special rules for your WW...your son...your siblings...your parents. Coworkers. Make those principled enforcements...

Identifying and stating what is abusive. (Defining (DJs), speaking for both of you (that subtle, "this is the way it is for us"; yelling, throwing objects, threatening, hitting, interrupting, withdrawing, silent treatment (being non-responsive))

Stating your boundary enforcement...if you choose to continue, I will remove myself for five minutes...then rephrase.

If it continues, state and remove.

Return...do not delay. Become present in mind, body and spirit...from your intent to know and be known.

If it continues, state and remove...two hours...set time to return and be there.

If it continues (highly unlikely, possible)...then state and remove from household overnight. Take children with you.

For the throwing/hitting/imminent harm acts...state "you are choosing to act violently. I am calling the police."

Punching walls, breaking plates...I can't tell you how these are PTSD acts...always remembered and reacted to inside those of us who watched, knew, heard...experienced. I can't remember 30 of my 45 birthdays...I can describe where, when, how an old boyfriend punched a wall...my oldest son...and not from the patching of it. Violence becomes legend within families...ask for and listen to adults telling you from the eyes and ears of their own inner child...better than they can tell you what you last argued with them about, or what the game was like you last enjoyed together.

"She was not satisfied with addressing the issue. Her objective was to show me how wrong I was. She was trying to show me that I did wrong because I am wrong. I suppose I should have enforced boundaries at this point. I don't question my worth as a person. It's not debatable."

If this is your truth...please state it..."I believe you are not satisfied with addressing the issue. I believe you are trying to show me that I did wrong because I am wrong, is this close to what you are experiencing?"

Which is why listen and repeat changes the world.

"I hear you telling me I'm wrong as a human being. Is that what you meant?"

"I hear you right now as if you were my mother, listing all that I've done wrong to teach me not to make those choices."

These are statements of ownership...within listen and repeat. That's you giving your accurate, real reactions inside you, about you, to another person, while you're feeling and thinking. Doesn't mean they are doing it to you...means you are brave enough to share right here, right now...because your intent is clarity, communication and connection. That's it. Not right, wrong, stop hurting, hurt back...it is loving the first degree...that's what ownership statements are..."I" statements...

I don't believe anymore you question your worth...I believe you have other reasons for not enforcing your boundaries.

I look forward to hearing your whys, your permissions and your perceptions. I respect they are yours. I believe in you. I know you believe in you. Others may debate...you know you're not debatable...your actions are. Your choice to act or not to act...and where your intent, desires and beliefs are--that's where clarity lives.

And again, I ran meself out of time...

LA

This is where my belief that I am indebted to people and my other belief that I am only responsible for my actions come into conflict.


She told me right after she did it. I do not throw things. Nothing. I do not act violently.


No, if he acts out this way I discuss it with him. It's difficult, however, for him to understand that behavior that's modeled for him is not acceptable. It's confusing.


I'm clearly stopping myself, because no one else can.


I didn't withdraw from this conversation, in my opinion.


This hurts. I feel angry reading this. It sparks my inner critic, telling me I'm an abuser, there's nothing I can do about it, because conflict avoiding has been linked to brain structure. It's who I am, and this characteristic is defined as abusive by someone I give authority. Leads me down a nihilistic path. Of course I have all the opposing thoughts too.


Then it's something akin to demonic possession. The part of myself that's closed off, that I'm not consciously aware of, is trying to remain comfortable. So it shuts my mind down in these situations and creates my inability to respond. Flooding.


To me, when she says this it always seems to be in response to my assertiveness. On Friday night I went out with my brothers. I came home about midnight. WW had to work in the morning, so I didn't wake her up, but I moved the cars so she could get out without me getting up. She woke me up at 6:30 to tell me that she thought it was abusive that I had done this. Identifying abuse is now a way of hurting the other person. Not at all what I intend it to be.


Would you clarify? I don't understand this.


Yes. This is exactly why verbal abuse is so nebulous.


But this is one of the facts of growing up, becoming an adult. Adolescence is all about defining yourself, creating firm boundaries between self and other. You learn to accept that others' opinions are their own. I'm not saying that I didn't make a mistake in addressing my WW without taking ownership of my opinion, I know I did.


No, your actions don't define you.


I do want to know her. Saying sorry for her stuff is implying she's wrong. It's condescending. It's wrong. It's not accepting. It's really unappealing. I don't do that anymore.


Yes and no and no and yes. It's okay for both of us to judge, because we have free will and can do whatever we want to. The consequences may not appeal to us. Was it ok for my to judge her beleifs? I don't think so. Is it ok for her to judge mine? I don't like it. That's all I can say about that.


I would probably make a bunch of judgments about you, questioning whether you would be a good person to spend time with. I think I would respond by saying "ok" or "interesting".


Of course it is. Just like the opinion of the WS that having an A and dissolving a marriage and family is a viable solution to whatever problems exist in the marriage is their opinion. I find this opinion sad. I feel sorry for those that believe it, yet I don't see them as me. I respect their right to believe what they choose to. I may have an interest in my WW questioning her choice to beleive this. In this case the line between us is vague, because the consequences of her choices impact me and my family.


I see people as equal. However, certain people are not safe for me to be around because of the choices they make. This judgment is necessary for my survival and well being. I don't do this to falsely bolster my self esteem (which is my understanding of where interpersonal judgment is so damaging). Perhaps my attempt to influence my WW's thinking is disrespectful, but it was not a false self esteem boost to me. I am still happy regardless of what she thinks or does. My happiness is never contingent on what someone else does - it's my responsibility - and making it contingent on someone else is a control tactic.


If someone is pinpointing the beleif that they based an action that was antisocial on, it's my belief that if that belief was challenged, the event might not have taken place. Isn't this what we all do? Tune our behavior based on consequences? The absolutism inherenet in your statement is totally unrealistic, and I certainly don't believe anything along those lines. There will always be pain, sadness, anger, etc., in the world, in relationships, etc. It's a fact of life.

I've got to run - I'll be back. As always, thanks.

Wow. From the link you posted:


The discussion of how violence erupts is valuable too. I do see some of my own choices in there. I also see how moderate responses are really the answer to this issue. Waiting till I'm at the end of my rope does nothing but escalate things. Boundaries enforced in the moment prevent this buildup.

Ok, I had to go back to what I originally said:
"WW: That doesn't mean anything to me. You say you'll do something and then don't do it. It's how you operate.
M: I'm sorry you choose to believe that."

My saying sorry to her had to do with my feeling of sadness because her belief and opinion were not grounded in reality, and the consequence of these beliefs were negatively impacting me. She's stating her choice to expect behavior from me based on her distorted memory of my behavior. This is what I'm sorry for. Between you and me, I'm sorry my WW makes these choices, and this is what I was communicating. Perhaps I shouldn't say anything along these lines at all.


I don't know if I have conveyed my beliefs or intentions to you, but I am under the impression that you see these differently than I do.


I think this is interesting because I can see two sides to it. I understand the point being made here, but the "get over it" bit seems to me to be paranoia inserted by the listener. I don't like that his apology seems to imply certain feelings are unpleasant - that this idea is acceptable. Furthermore, it seems grounded in the idea that the triggerer is responsible for the reaction the listener has, not just the triggering of it. I don't agree with this. My WW really objects to me saying this (which was advised by a book I read, BTW), so I have been conscious not to use it much. It has sincere, genuine applications though.


Mind reading at its finest!


No, I know. This is about approaching the world this way.


My first why has to do with not having healthy boundaries demonstrated in my childhood. This makes it difficult in the present, but choosing to use this as an excuse is not an option to me. It's simply a consideration in my pursuit of healthy living.

Secondly, I am now in a situation where I don't feel safe or supported. Another consideration that makes it difficult to assert myself. I am in the habit of not asserting myself, and this change takes dicipline. I am making progress in this area - significant in my mind. It's difficult because I am constantly being told that I'm selfish and this is why my WW doesn't want to be here, etc. I need to assert myself, because not doing this leads to bad behavior.

What I'm doing is not enough though. It's a start, but it's immature at best.