MT,

Big empathy for losing a post...ack! I feel for you, and miss the post that never was...

First, about intermediaries...they don't handle the kid. LOL...they handle communications...all of them...about the kid...not the actual kid.

If you want to set it up so there is a neutral pick up and drop off...where you don't lay eyes on her...figure out a friend and ask...or bring a male witness with you when you pick up or drop off. You can wait in the car, if you have to...

You are a creative human being...let your imagination flow...come up with several alternatives...will your father or FIL really protect you from knowledge (tidbits even) about WW? Will they honor and respect your darkness even if they don't agree with it? (Those who love us hate to see us hurt...because they hurt...so they want the quickest way out of hurt for ya...and their wishful inner child goes nuts...often...not about you at all!)

And I think her handing you all the bill paying responsibilies works well for Plan B...so you can let go the resentment...which is seeing the Godsend in it...timing wise.

I really hear you on the bills, btw...I took on resented my DH very much for having to do it...over the last 20 years, we've gone back and forth...you do, then you mess up...then I do, and resent...then we do and we mess up...always pointing fingers...of course, I could build resentment out of thin air, I believe...in a room, alone...what I wasn't doing for myself...ROFL

It's a penchant for false power...not real at all. I believe you're capable, knowledgeable and committed. Resentment drags our feet like weights; it's child is procrastination...and forgetfulness...from fear.

And I had that financial ego in me...how I managed money made me an adult (and it doesn't)...so when I put off, forgot, misplaced, didn't reach for what I needed...and yes, blamed DH to death...I swear...then I derided myself and told myself I was a screw up, a child, a no-good.

Funny thing...I was just talking to my OS the other night (they are in tight straits, as anyone who is 23, married, with a 3-month-old usually is...and my DIL is a SAHM), as he said, "We just barely made the bills last month" and I heard him kicking himself...the provider...caretaker...and for the first time I'd thought this, I said, "You know, you made the bills. Barely or not...you made them. Wow. Give yourself credit. Your father and I didn't do that...we always looked at our financial lack as our own self-lack...failing, bad...not temporary...permanently messed up. You aren't. YOU MADE THE BILLS!"

My goodness...what a duh and lovely moment that was...and I'm grieving my choice to not self-encourage, acknowledge and love myself and my DH back then enough to see our bounty...we paid the bills. We did.

"Now comes the hard part - changing so this never happens again."

Okay. Is that a reasonable adult expectation? Might be it's hard because it's not real...that's fantasy. We don't have the power to make things never happen again...truly...we're complex humans living with other complex humans...and interacting...we don't fix ourselves and stay fixed...we aren't broken...we don't fix our marriages so they stay fixed...right here, right now...we are doing or not doing. That's it.

"I just feel like I keep losing more and more respect, I'm becoming smaller and smaller, and giving her less reason to want to be with me."

Would you consider that by your choice to value her opinion and respect above your own, you actually are eliminating your own self-respect through self-betrayal? If her respecting you matters more than you respecting you, then you will feel this with anyone you choose to do this with...'cuz your self IS respectable...it's separate and equal. If you're talking admiration, valuing, or following, those are different from respect.

For instance...if you choose to do that which you abhor but she admires, do you feel good about her admiration?

We can get caught in doing bigger and bigger things to earn love and feel smaller and smaller in the process from the increasing self-betrayal...front message: "I want you to love me so I'm lovable." Back message: "Others are everything; I am nothing."

Ouchouchouchouch...and such a lie. Self-deception. The Doormat Syndrome...and we do it to ourselves and blame others. You already caught yourself...found a pattern and a payoff...you get to create and build resentment, undermine yourself and your intentions, blame-shift...because...why?

What is your real payoff?

And has it been a false one? Know one I had when I did just these same things? I could feel powerful momentarily, like a shaved second before feeling worse...I lived for that one-second power surge. Highlight of my pattern.

And here I was, MAKING myself feel powerless, helpless, defective...by choice.

I had no idea.

"This is certainly in line with what she's telling me, and that she's telling me contributes to me feeling like I can't do better."

No wonder...being verbally abused is like having acid poured on you slowly, over time...eats away with every word...stop taking verbal abuse. Only you define yourself. I think your self is begging, demanding and ripping your insides up to get your attention to stop shredding yourself by not doing your reasonable, respectable boundary enforcements.

"Again, this exposes my belief that her actions force me to act a certain way, or force a reaction in me. They don't. Maybe it's wishful thinking, but I always felt that I would do much better if she was appreciating and admiring me. But I guess that's another place where I am excusing my lack of doing for myself with her actions. What I most need from her I need to give myself."

You would EXIST if she appreciated and admired your existence. That's THRILLING to exist. Exist, anyway. Practice appreciating yourself deeply, truly...admiring and acknowledging you for each act of love...for yourself, too. And yes, you know this. Doesn't have that false power surge payoff like blame-shifting does...sure has long-lasting contentment from radical honesty and living from truth in it.

I know you said you got that we make mistakes, we aren't one...I keep coming back to this blame/fault thing...because I know you know it...I don't think you believe it. Blame-shifting comes from guilt and shame...why the delight of relief when we shift it to others (and your example of wanting HER to get the info that you could have gotten yourself is a sterling example, thank you) and why we plunge further down right after...not filling, wholesome or real.

Nor was the blame to begin with. When you don't do, you don't do...owning and amending. No bashing, punishing...accepting you didn't do and knowing your whys...tracing them. Same for doing...like LBs...own and amend. This breaks the habit of forgetting (if you could feel all the bruises and cuts you've given yourself inside, you'd forget, too), resentful reasoning and self-deception. You no longer bully yourself.

We're adults. We really don't learn from punishment...we resent it, instead, mightily. We learn from consequences...and actually, so do children.

Punishing to teach is like telling us to distract from reality...take your licks so you'll know better...I KNEW BETTER AND I DID IT ANYWAY. That's real.

"I believe it comes from my father. I used to disobey him and felt that the consequences (spankings, etc) were the price I had to pay. But he used to make it clear how people would judge me because of my actions, what my actions made me into."

That's a huge sentence...what your actions made you into.

"I disobeyed him, but I respected him because he was responsible and mature. Now I judge my own actions as either what I "should" do based on what I think he would do, and what I feel like doing. There's clearly overlap, but that's where I think it comes from."

Good to know...simply stated, you were taught judgment defines who you are...and others have that right. That's why you're taking the verbal abuse...you believe she has a right to define who you are. That her truth has truth in it for you. Is that correct?

Congratulations on sharing all of you...not just what you think is attractive. That's a brave step in owning your self and your life...not seeing it as bad, lousy...you know the routine. Not real.

"Ok, so maybe we're talking about the same thing. When you say judgment of the truth do you mean things like judging a color against your belief of what that color is? Judging whether it's warm out?"

No...that would be your truth...what color you see, temperature you feel...that's subjective...comes through your filter. Like saying, "What do you mean you're cold! It's frigging 80 degrees right now!" That's saying what another person should feel as if it were the truth...and it remains, our truth...our temperature, feelings, thoughts, beliefs, perceptions and perspectives.

My truth is that my son stomped down the stairs and slammed his door. The Truth is that my son went downstairs to his room and the door is closed now.

"I also would like to suggest that this destructive judgment is more something along the lines of "value judgment" in that you're comparing yourself and others against a scale. Allows you to move people up or down on the scale relative to you, pretending it's objective, yet you control it. Do you think this distinguishes dysfunctional from healthy judgment?"

See, here's where we vary...comparing humans is destructive...we are equal...we can subjectively slide them up and down, as you said, as an act of self-deception...we remain equals. There's no comparison...the act of comparing is fantasy. We can compare circumstances, events, lots of things...not humans.

And when we say, "There but for the grace of God go I"...we aren't comparing...we are taking whatever it is in through our filter...making it about us, truly. That's reality.

So I don't go to dysfunctional and functional judgment...I do real or fantasy...because I sooo have to keep it simple for myself...and dysfunctional IS a judgment...so that loops my mind.

I didn't have clear lines in my head all my life. I'm not bashing myself...had no clue how to discern...sure knew how to judge.

"I think this is in awareness."

I asked you to find your payoff in choosing to believe everyone does it...so I don't understand your answer. If you know you did it, that's awareness. If you know why you chose to do it, that's awareness. I'm lost on where others come into it...this is a personal payoff...are you saying through comparison (including generaliazed others into your rationale) you gain awareness? Feel more aware?

"But I think my distinction above between value judgment and cognitive judgment clarify this point. My statement about the normalcy of judgment was more about cognitive judgment,"

I think this is me being fuzzy, not you. To me, cognitive judgment is a riddle in itself...if it applies to our new brain (which is where we think, choose to judge or not), then I get it. Still, coginitive means to me "mental" what we do in our minds...judgment is a belief, a thought, a perception and a viewpoint...all chosen. If you're saying cognitive to distinguish between our old brains, where we only judge nurturer or murderer (the all and nothing you see in your WW), which isn't a chosen thought...it's automatic off/on we have...and then we either choose to act on or not (or react to)...then I'm on board.

Tell me more plainly (as a kindness, sincerely) what you mean by cognitive and value judgment...and how they differ from interpersonal judgment.

"not value judgment or interpersonal judgment. Think about language and how you pick your words - generally it's your judgment at work, trying to illustrate your ideas as clearly as possible. Normal and I think OK."

Okay...picking my words...instead of typing them straight out of my mind, typing them as fast as they come...novel idea.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Is it judgment? 'Cuz my intent is to communicate...I let go whether the outcome. When I craft a poem or story, I don't do the "does this get it" in the eyes of others (and boy, don't my posts reflect that!)...I do listen to my rhythm through alliteration, adjectives, and notice if my yearning is high, middle or lower...and usually when it's high, it doesn't get it. I don't do that in my posts...I'm hearing that might be a grand idea. I don't call that judgment...I call that asking myself is that it? Is that true? Is that where I was going?

Of course, I don't take my friends in my writer's group comments as judgment, either. I hear their opinions...not the truth, their truth...so I think I'm the one now being obtuse. Judgment to me lays down facts only...finding facts...my DH went to work today. I think. Actually, that's a supposition. I drove my car to work. Wow...now I'm tangled up. Thank you for helping me on this judgment thingie...

I know when I write, I find out a lot of what I really think...the words I chose signal me...part of discovery, though. Not judgment.

"I think comparison is essential to the scale I spoke of above, forces you to keep score which leads to this expectation of fairness, of tit for tat, which leads to resentment, and then respect is nullified on the grounds that it must be earned and the other person's actions haven't earned this."

Now I get what you said earlier...the sliding scale...something you do, has this payoff (well-identified). I perceived you were saying that the sliding scale comparison was something normal, natural for humans.

I got it. You're examining the ways you've been self-deceiving, is that correct? Very cool! Awareness, not judgment, stops self-deceit.

And you really pointed out how we subtly reinforce our stuff, substantiate resentment (both in it's creation and maintenance) in the way you laid this out. Thank you.

"When I was younger I used to believe that this spoke to justice and fairness in the world, that if I judge someone another person (or God) would judge me. Also I saw opportunity in it, a tactical advantage: if I chose NOT to judge, I would be entitled to not being judged by anyone else. Now I see this as a sort of instant justice, where my judgment on another person instantly forces the rules I'm choosing to use against another person to push them down the scale against myself. I'm cementing these rules that I'm going to break in the future and have in the past. There's one major concept in life that I believe in, and that's that I'm human, so therefore I am capable of anything any human does. Capable of the good as well as the bad. I think we internalize all aspects of our society and different parts of our being resemble different parts of it. We have a large portion of our population in prison, a part of ourselves is criminal. We have great thinkers, problem solvers, etc, we have these parts of our self as well."

Yes, the individual human contains the whole...and the whole contains the individual...why I got a "C" in Biomedical Ethics, where they propose one or the other...not that tricky, galaxy within a molecule within a galaxy where the answer is "Yes!" not "Either/Or".

May I suggest cutting off some of your sentences? (Wait! No kettle/black here, honest)...

"There's one major concept in life that I believe in, and that's that I'm human, so therefore I am capable"

End it right there. What does that feel like in you?

"of anything any human does. Capable"

Right there.

"I don't want to be a fraud, not by omission or outright lying. Yes, my not telling is a manipulation. I am trying to keep her comfortable so she doesn't do anything new or different."

This is our journey into uncovering the myriad ways we self-deceive...and therefore, deceive others. It is the anti-thesis of intimacy...so it can feel like safe ground. We are really fooling ourselves. When you said that your sharing is a manipulation...you owned your stuff...brought it into the light...to know. Now, does that match your intent?

Can you see where rocking the boat isn't what we do when we're honest? It's omission and covering, self-deceit, which rocks the boat.

Okay...time to bring out one huge muther of a 2x4:

"This is one of the things that I have to look at. One of the issues that my WW has with me is that my self soothing in her eyes is my highest priority. It's pretty selfish to do this, and I think it's ugly too."

Ready? Looking at how you self-soothe...which is ancient in us...and seeing where we do it with a real payoff or a false one...distraction is an act of self-soothing...therefore, being totally focused on WW, which can look like it's you being fixated on her, can be from self-soothing...distracts from your own anxiety...and usually is the source of it...all from the inside.

When are YOU going to realize that your WW is in a fog...very real...and IS abusive? Your WW is abusing you.

Do you think it's selfish when a baby seeks it's thumb to suck on? Not the real thing...a false substitute...and yes, it's soothes, temporarily. Is that ugly? If we aren't taught that fear won't kill us...we believe it does...we're born that way...because we are spiritual beings in physical bodies...we can feel decimated emotionally, mentally, physically and spiritually...different ways to feel erased, nothing, invisible, dead. We believe we really do go out of existence several times in our lives...fear comes from that belief...our choice to believe since we FEEL annihilated we are...

And we are not.

Hey, soothing fear isn't ugly, selfish or wrong...it's human. Funniest part as adult humans is that healthy soothing comes from sharing...stating our fear, not reacting from it...and we learn this gradually. You, MT, cannot learn this in your marriage as it is right now. You are not safe to share.

You are being abused. Defined. Gaslighted. And you're choosing to buy it.

I'm not saying this to leave...I believe this is for a reason...so you can really get, for the first time in your whole life, your lines crystal clear, your permissions in balance...revoking those which harm and invoking those which authenticate who you really are.

It is for you to discover, probe and explore your stuff...tell your WW HANDS OFF. "YOU ARE NOT SAFE TO SHARE WITH. STOP DEFINING ME. THAT'S ABUSE. I'M HANGING UP NOW."

I soooo would AO...okay, NOT...but ohohohohohohoh...lemme.

It would be me yelling at my past self...I did that to my DH. I emotionally held his arm behind his back trying to force him to fill me up in the way I wanted, when and how I wanted...until I broke it.

And let me.

Neither of us had clear lines...no concept of boundaries...and I remember him saying, "We need some boundaries in our marriage."

"What do you mean?"

"I mean like some rules."

"Okay. I'm making a boundary. You can't go a week without talking to me."

ROFLMAO...it's funny now...understand...that was the whole conversation...how unsafe and abusive I was...and btw, IN AN AFFAIR AT THE TIME.

Duh. Ugh. Oh, the remorse, the grief. Lemme yell at your WW who was me, 'k?

State the truth...there's your judgment. When someone tells you who you are and what you do...their opinion as fact...that's abusive. We hear specifically, and take it as totality...how our signals alert us to abuse.

Self-soothing...when you give yourself a hug, massage your feet, congratulate yourself for feeling fear and not reacting...noticing, not judging...breathing deeply, slowly...each time we feel pain and go to rest our head on our partner's shoulder...wrap them in our arms or burrow into theirs...we are self-soothing through connection...not ugly, selfish or wrong.

"And this is ugly too. I see too much in here that I relate too. So much fantasy. Scary. I know it's about the interactions, but I FEEL like a problem myself for fitting into this description."

Now there's an abusive belief...that people can be problems...instead of having them.

You said you wanted to run that road to freedom...you said you wanted freedom...seeing in yourself where you abuse is the key to freedom. Not bad. Not wrong. You're no victim and you certainly aren't married to one. You're two humans in a human marriage...and when you study what verbal/emotional abuse is...you'll get it's a choice...not a condition.

Again, knowledge, not judgment...you do this. Now that you know, revoke your permission to do it by finding your payoff in doing it...it's false. I promise. You don't stop doing it because it's bad...you stop doing it because it's not who you really are.

We only do that which has a payoff...when you find out how false a lot of them really are, you stop doing them. You identify real payoffs...you don't hammer yourself into behaving differently through punishment...you find reality and live from different permissions, from new beliefs...and as a result, you have NEW signals!!

Which is why we can fall in love with our partners (and ourselves) over and over again.

For a lifetime.

Please commit to owning how you've discovered you abuse...and sharing what you learn...your stuff. As yours.

I wrote out several pages of amends to my WH...owning my stuff, my part...and for the last two years, I've lived from them. Share who you are and who you are not anymore...

"Ok, one of the things from your abuse dance description that rings true here is that when she attacks me I see it as an attack on herself right then and there. This is a DJ, because I'm seeing her as her own victim, which in truth she is, but I'm using this to justify me not doing anything about it. I guess this is justifying my choice not to act because of my fear and is self deceptive in that I believe she's given herself her punishment, there's nothing for me to do here."

Ahhh...the old, "How can we punish him, honey? Look, he's so hard on himself already." BULLCRAPPY!

See...punishment is judgment...consequences are truth...logical and natural ones...we learned as children to cudgel ourselves...and good men stand by and do nothing. And they get in the way of our consequences by standing there...the logical and natural ones...

Great insight on what stills your honesty...and grants her permission to flamebroil you. Revoke that permission. It's a ruse...you can't stop her from abusing others or herself...out of your control. You can stand by only if you speak..."I see you bashing yourself to pieces. I feel pain inside from the way you put yourself down. And I feel fear because you do that to me, too. Neither of us deserve abuse. Please, stop."

And yes, it can be seen as manipulation on her part...if we beat you to the punch of punching ourselves...we control you, don't we?

Or do we?

Blame and punishment...earning and faulting...can you hear how we're reaching for ownership and honesty, choice and protection...cloaked within those words...and they are not what they look like...the clear lines change everything. You're finding your way...you're choosing not to share because you believe you can harm her with your truth...that's you believing it...she can be shredding herself in front of you and if you see your truth as punishment, then you won't have to be brave, true, real or at risk, will you?

Compassion is not what we've been told it is...

And we set our intent...it's not separate from us...and yes, revoking permissions for parts of ourselves to operate without our knowledge is crucial to loving well and true.

Can't love? Would I say that? How about love from reality? Everyone can...will they choose to?

I am saying that you living reactively, with reason, not healthy. Get your lines clear...get those parts of you to show their face, like your intent...make your awareness your highest priority...not judgment. And to please put a boundary around yourself to not abuse...nor take it.

LA

Wow, that was a long one! And packed with useful insight. Thanks!


I know that we can't control what happens - accidents will always happen, situations will arise that we didn't anticipate. However, my concern here was establishing a system and being disciplined enough to follow it, whether WW is with me or not. I think this is one of the critical parts of family life, establishing all the necessary systems to ensure the day to day operations flow properly. I feel like my W has shot down all of my ideas in the past, stymiing our progress. But this is a cop out. I haven't approached it the right way yet. This is what I'm getting at - creating a better system (a cooperative effort would be ideal, but a system that works more important - and right here is an example of my thinking that erodes our marriage; I want things to work, but the important part is the connection, the collaborative effort, the building of a life together, and I maintain my focus on the doing not the together. I have good reason to fear that the process will be uncomfortable, as does she, but this prevents the good experiences from happening.). If you have a decent system you can be flexible, like a good plan that you can modify or adapt to the situation. If you don't have a plan in place, you haven't got much of a vantage point to view the daily occurances from.


I think I'm trying to acheive a balance here, not seeing her perspective as more important than mine. However, being that she's the one with her foot out the door, when I see evidence of the way she views me, I want her to see me differently not because my own view of myself rests on how she sees me, but because I want her to see me the way I see myself. I believe that maintaining a positive view of your partner is an essential part of your responsibility as a spouse. When she does the exact opposite, I think it's more of a betrayal than sleeping with someone else. I continue to choose to see her in a positive light, to offset negative thoughts about her actions with positives that I see. I bolster her image in my mind, in my reality.


It depends. I think in order for me to choose to do something I would have to embrace the action in some way, find some valid reason for me to do it, and then, under those circumstances I would be able to admire myself for it. This is because I don't do things that I don't choose to do myself.


I agree, but I don't really think this is where I'm coming from with this. Yet I still have a lot of underlying victim justifications, and I also "give" WW virtual power that doesn't really exist.


I think she and I both were in a fog. I think we both are still in our own seperate fog now in a lot of ways. The abuse - I do recognize that to some degree, but to acknowledge it and act against it would cement me as a victim, which I'm not.

I have to run, but I want to respond to more of your post later.

I think you're right. I am frustrated with myself for where I'm allowing myself to be. I don't focus on solutions in the moment, rather I fight with the feelings. The solution is to state my feelings rather than fight them, to be aware, to acknowledge and to allow the other person to do so as well.


I think your point here is basically that what I do I do regardless of my WW's involvement in it. My point was mired in my criticism of what she's not doing right, what she's not doing for me. Fruitless for me to focus there, on lack. It's also my idea of what she "should" be doing, and her lack of doing what I expect. Does she even know she should be doing this? I want to say "of course, who wouldn't" but that's where we so easily go wrong. I don't think she's breaking any explicit agreement here. This is my frustration, my desire, something I should own and should have asked for. I feel a sense of defeatism again today. I feel I should have done this rather than I should because the negativity is so strong. It taints everything for me now. At lunch I ate with our son, WW stayed downstairs as she usually does, but her brother and SIL were there with her. My son got up and walked his sandwich over to the garbage and dumped it as I was telling him not to (he asked me for the sandwich too, which made it all that much more frustrating). So I gave him a time out. He didn't do very well with this either. He got up and went to mommy. She told him to do his time out, but when I explained to her what it was for she said "and you didn't get up and stop him" in such a condescending, contemptful way. I really reacted to this, because she shifted the blame for what happened onto me, where it didn't belong. I felt like she was attacking me, taking a stab at me. And you know what? I reacted by walking away. I didn't argue, I didn't say anything. I withdrew. Wayward actions, right?


I think more shame than guilt. I looked for that Bradshaw book at the store in addition to the verbal abuse book this weekend. They didn't have either, but I did pick up Gottman's 7 Principles book which I find somewhat interesting. I find myself wondering if I'd have an easier time drawing clear lines in a different situation. More blame shifting right there - shifted onto the situation, not another person.


Absolutely. Everyone's truth has some portion of objective truth in it. Just like there's God to be found in everything, even if it's only in the perceiving. It's there, but if we focus on the "bad", we miss it - rather we push in away, we hide it from ourselves. So, no, nobody is truly able to define me, but they can describe me, inform me of their truth of how I appear to them. My understanding of their understanding incorporates the fact that they see me as they want to see me to some degree or other, as the NEED me to be in order for their world to make sense, not as I am. I beleive she has the right to see me as she wants to, as she needs to, as she chooses to. Her opinion doesn't make me different than I really am. I would prefer that she saw me more the way I see myself, but whether she does or not doesn't change who I am.

Interpersonal judgment determines opportunities. It determines what role I can play in the other person's reality. In this sense it defines certain potentials, but doesn't really define me. Or does it? Do I do everything I can to avoid being judged in a way that would limit me? Do I try and make a good impression? Or do I see my W as holding something I want and I have to be seen a certain way in order to get it? Do I objectify her and hold as sacred and desireable something beyond what the actual relationship is? Is this why I'm able to ignore the interactions that actually define the relationship?


Yeah, I sidestepped this one a bit. I think the payoff is in letting myself off the hook for "bad" behavior by saying that everyone does it. It's my rationalization of my lack of desire to change.


Ok, I confused myself. I was trying to take the concept of judgment to a very general, universal place and then dispute it, draw lines in it and define it. To the best of my understanding when you talk about judgment you are talking about interpersonal judgment (including judgment of self because it is interpersonl in a sense). All other judgment does not fall under this umbrella. I was talking about cognitive judgment as an exception to this bad group when I was considering all judgment undesireable. When I talk about cognitive judgment I mean it as more the act of perceiving - integrating sensory input with our beliefs and memory. I make the judgment call that you understand English, so I write in English to you. I make the judgment call that you have a certain degree of intellectual ability, therefore I choose to relate to you in a certain way. I choose certain words to communicate my ideas because I judge your understanding of certain concepts - so I don't need to define these concepts as I speak.

In cognitive judgment all your judgment of a person are stored along with the sensory information - but it's all your belief, your labeling. It's a human trait to perceive this way. We see it as observation, but it's assumption based on cues, on evidence we get. This leads us astray in our relationships because we assume we know far more than we do about the other person, and we are most free to project with them. Yet the roots of this bad habit are alive and well, and in fact serve us well in everyday life. This is what allows us to function in society. Otherwise we would be in constant amazement of reality. We reduce reality to patterns and labels and then we're able to store it away, pre-processed, for use at a later time. When someone's features or actions, etc., fall into this category, we recognize out belief and all its associations rather than the unique person. To some degree this is natural and normal. We are taught that dangerous people give us warning signs. We see the signs and the person is suddenly defined as a threat. Functional, healthy stuff.

Interpersonal judgment in a relationship is about seeing the person as the person. As they are, not as we would like them to be. This ties into my belief that first impressions are really important - and trusting your gut then about a person will save you a tremendous amount of grief. Because at the inception of a relationship that's when your objectivity is at its peak, when your judgment is most accurate (to the degree to which prejudices and preconceptions can be). The person you judged them to be at that moment is who they will always be. Attraction increases as time goes on, as do the excuses you make for the other person. When you make excuses, you begin to define them. Even if your excuses are to excuse your initial "misjudgment", they still begin to define the other person in your own mind - against your will to define them as something else.

I think this is what makes judgment a bad thing - the will to define. When we recognize that we can reduce people to labels, we begin to recognize that we have this false power to define them through labeling. We see our "objective" judgment of worth as impacting another, and we play around with labeling them so that our own "omnipotent power" effects them in different ways.

I think I've taken this off on a bit of a tangent, but I hope I have made a little more clear the distinction I was trying to make.

But this takes judgment. You want to communicate, you could use pictures, you could use another language, you could use baby talk, etc., etc., instead, you choose to see me as capable of understanding your words, and vice versa you choose to use words and concepts you think I'll understand.


Again, this screams to me that you're seeing judgment as a way of defining your person, your essence. I don't beleive in any objective standard for words to portray ideas, rather I see it all as agreements. Language is agreed upon, but different groups of people agree to use the same language in different ways, and it's up to the people communicating to judge the agreements that will be in use in the current conversation.


You may suggest it, and I take it to heart, but I often have a difficult time judging when a sentence is a run-on or not. So I just do my best to get the words out in a way that makes sense.


This is a double edged sword. If I don't do something it means that I have prevented myself from doing it - blamed but empowered. The possibility is there, the potential. The expectation is personalized. We are all capable of anything any human can do, but our personal choices and attributes determine the extent of our ability to realize this capability. Potential limited by personality. Almost a Buddhist concept here.


So how do I stop buying it? And what am I doing exactly that defines my buying it?

I agree, by the way, with your statement that there's something unfinished here, some lesson that I really have to learn in this before I can move on either way.


Ok, you do it for me then. I'm not trying to go there - although sometimes I would like to. Sometimes I wish it came naturally to me to do so.


I like this way of looking at things. It's not who you are, even if it's what you're doing.

I've been doing some research online in the past day or two about verbal abuse. A lot of it resonates with me, but I find the sexism difficult to get beyond as well as several characteristics labeled abusive which don't make sense to me. For example, on a site (verbalabuse.com) the behavior of withdrawing is looked at as a control mechanism - and since men are primarily viewed as the abuser, this clashes strongly with my understanding of the cause of this behavior in myself as well as what several experts I have read attributed this to. My explaination of this is pretty much in line with Gottman's theory of flooding. Basically I have a strong, overwhelming emotional response to interactions and am unable to respond or interact. This is far from engaging in a power struggle for me, or trying to control anything. However, one of the things that the author kept saying is that abusers will not see their actions in the description because their denial is so strong. So basically if my W tells me she feels controlled byy me and my actions, I'm an abuser. However, I do recognize several descriptions of abusive behavior that match my WW very well, and there are a few things that I see myself doing that I need to be more aware of. With my WW, it's the tantrums, the echoing, not listening to me, the insults, the criticism, the attacks on my abilities, the criticism of my apparent inability to care for her properly, the accusations of selfishness, not acknowledging my complaint of being spoken to harshly - attacking me instead, etc., etc., etc.

There is such a strong sense that these relationships are hopeless to repair. Both participants have to be strongly motivated to change, but the hardest work must be done by the abuser.

I guess what's important for me is really seeing things for what they are and empowering myself. Regardless of the outcome. To be totally present and aware.

Monday our son was very difficult during the afternoon while I was at work. WW was really frustrated and angry. She told me that she had spanked him a couple of times. He wrote on the wall, he hit, he was totally insolent. I mentioned how he didn't listen to me at lunch in my previous post. Well, when I got home I basically took over for her. She stayed downstairs, refused to eat the dinner I made. He was totally oppositional, to the point where I decided to try some reverse psychology. I told him that the rice I made was terrible, and that he shouldn't eat it. His response: "But I want to eat it daddy. It's good." This went on for the whole meal. He was 100% cooperative - instantly doing whatever I told him not to do. I told him not to take his clothes off, and he did quickly. I told him not to put his PJs on, and I have never seen him put them on that fast. He started to get upset at a certain point because he recognized that I was saying the wrong thing, that I was telling him to do things that I shouldn't have done, but it was as if he couldn't help himself. It was as if he had a compulsive need to do whatever I told him not to. We went downstairs to mommy after he broke into tears and he verbalized to her that he wasn't happy with her. I told him that he had better not give her a big hug and a kiss. What does he do? You guessed it.

So this concerns me a bit. Why would a child be so oppositional? Despite himself, he was oppositional. He had to do whatever I told him not to. And what does this mean about his parents?

Another interesting comment. Last night I had to work in the evening. WW wanted to do dinner at her mother's and I agreed but told her I had to leave at a certain time. Well, the cooking took longer than planned or expected. At one point I was in the kitchen with WW and MIL and noticed the time. "Wow, it's 6:45 already" I said. The two of them looked at eachother with an "oh great" look. Her mother said "It's my fault, if I had gone to the store earlier. . ." and then WW says "no, it's my fault." I turned to the two of them and said that this had nothing to do with fault or blame. I was simply noting the time and I had to figure out my plans around the time. I wasn't accusing anyone of anything, yet it was perceived as an attack. I find myself wondering whether this is because they both view the world in this blame way, or if it's how they think I view it, and are responding because they're reading between the lines.

MT,

I'm short on time at the moment...and I enjoy your posts very much...thought I would just address this one thing here:

" For example, on a site (verbalabuse.com) the behavior of withdrawing is looked at as a control mechanism - and since men are primarily viewed as the abuser, this clashes strongly with my understanding of the cause of this behavior in myself as well as what several experts I have read attributed this to. My explaination of this is pretty much in line with Gottman's theory of flooding. Basically I have a strong, overwhelming emotional response to interactions and am unable to respond or interact. This is far from engaging in a power struggle for me, or trying to control anything. However, one of the things that the author kept saying is that abusers will not see their actions in the description because their denial is so strong. So basically if my W tells me she feels controlled byy me and my actions, I'm an abuser."

The difference between an abuser and an effective communicator...when an abuser withdraws, they don't say when they'll come back, what time, for how long and what reason (that they're feeling flooded). Open-ended withdraw...

An effective communicator withdraws when flooded by first stating what he's feeling (which helps with flooding), how long it will take him to calm down and when he will be back...roughly 10 to 20 minutes...he owns his flooding...not withdrawing because your W made you...withdrawing because you feel flooded...no judgment...with a time resumption.

Time is an element of respect...a commitment you keep. If within the ten minutes you aren't calm (doesn't matter if you're crying, sweating...don't have to be perfect...just have to be clear you want to hear and understand and NOT react)...you can return and say you're having trouble settling down, you restate your intent...to hear and understand (not to take on believe yourself)...and your appreciation for presence, etc.

An effective communicator has this as the third boundary enforcement...withdrawal while they calm down from the abuse...only as an enforcement 1/2 hour to an 1 hour before you resume...isn't just your signals jumping up high...verbal abuse triggers tremendous flooding cumulatively all the way back to childhood. Feels like dying, not just beginning to drown.

You don't own the abuse...you own your enforcement...withdrawing for specified time and reason and state your intent to return to discussion to understand...and restate your commitment to not stay present for VB.

The next boundary enforcement after that is leaving the house for two to four hours.

That's not abusive withdrawal when you own and state your whys and wherefores and hold to your promise of time.

"However, I do recognize several descriptions of abusive behavior that match my WW very well, and there are a few things that I see myself doing that I need to be more aware of. With my WW, it's the tantrums, the echoing, not listening to me, the insults, the criticism, the attacks on my abilities, the criticism of my apparent inability to care for her properly, the accusations of selfishness, not acknowledging my complaint of being spoken to harshly - attacking me instead, etc., etc., etc."

I'm delighted you have identified her VB...and kept an eye to your own...forgetting is one...that surprised me...not responding...

I'll be back,

LA

Thanks for taking the time to respond despite this.


Ok, I understand this, and I agree, I should always communicate why I'm withdrawing, acknowledge that I am and inform the other person when I'll return. However, if I withdraw because I'm flooded and need to escape does that constitute abuse? I often am unable to communicate what I'm doing, it's instantly interpretted as something and defined without my input (beyond my actions, of course) and trying to set the record straight leads to arguments. So I know I'm not withdrawing to control my W, I'm not trying to keep the conversation on my terms, etc. So this leads to the real question (which I have a feeling the answer to is self evident): is it abuse when it's not intended? Is it abuse when it's not done in anger? When it's not about power or control? The reason I ask this is because nearly ANYTHING can be percieved as being about control and power. Just because my W percieves me as controlling doesn't make me so, and vice versa.

One of the other major things that my WW does that I see as VB is that she isn't interested in communicating. She tells me I'm lying to her all the time, telling her what I want her to think, not what I truly believe. She uses this to "see through" everything I say or do, ignoring what I tell her about how I'm feeling or what I think. She is essentially seeing me the way she wants to and disregarding anything that doesn't agree with what she wants to see. I see this as defining me. Not sure though. My attempts to communicate, to intimate, are viewed with contempt and I'm often told what I "really" think. If I refute this (I guess this is really the part I play in this cycle) in order to communicate what I really do think because what she believes is so far off the wall and paints me in a bad light I'm clearly in the wrong.


Yeah, the forgetting surprises me too. I can understand that forgetting when it forces the other person to experience consequences - in a sense proving their reliance. If I have the power to control what they can and can't do through my forgetfullness it proves that I dominate them, that they're dependant on me. However, I forget a lot of stuff and I don't think it's abusive. I forgot that my W was working this Friday, her schedule is different every week and I have difficulty remembering schedules - does this mean I'm abusing my coworkers or my family members when I forget birthdays or other occassions? I don't think so, I think it goes to the intention, and I think that abusive forgetting is often conscious choice masked as innocent forgetfulness. The trouble with judging intention is that whenever this is done it opens up all sorts of potential for projection. So if I judge my W's actions as abusive I am essentially judging her intentions, and therefore possibly (or even probably) projecting, so my response to this is NOT to call it abuse. And this is exactly why I continue to take part in it. I discount it. I write it off and justify it.

Some hope here. WW called this morning very frustrated about money and debt, etc. She was starting to try and get a handle on it. I have been trying to get her to sit down and redo our budget, come up with a manageable plan, etc. So now she's telling me that she's frustrated with me because I haven't done anything about it, I am not doing anything to make more money to support the family that I claim to care about (despite the fact that I work two jobs), that now she has to work two jobs and she's not going to be able to keep all that extra money for herself. It's amazing that I'm so responsible for her misery, isn't it? Anyway, I told her that I'd like to sit down together and create a workable plan together. So we're planning to do this tomorrow night. She's taking this attitude of "if I don't do it it doesn't get done" yet now that she's doing it we are finally able to approach this as a team, and it seems she's willing to do this. We had a civil conversation about it at lunch time, not much in the was of accusation or blame, but she was certain to point the finger a couple of times and tell me that she was frustrated with me, and that she saw this as my failure. I think she's seeing this new income come in and she's thinking about taking a trip to see OM and is frustrated that she has responsibilities to her family.

One of the things that Gottman said is that in an equal relationship, there are certain areas where if you feel you're doing everything, you're just doing enough. He points this out in the area of housework with men. I think this rings true for my W too. She's finally taking some ownership here and though she resents it, we're finally at the point where we can work as equals through it.

Ok, this afternoon I went home sick from work. WW had a therapist appointment and I wasn't feeling well. I got home shortly before WW had to leave. I went downstairs to find her in her coat ready to go text messaging on her phone. I sat near her and she moved the screen of the phone away from me so I couldn't see it. I asked her who she was writing to. She gave me a look and then told me that she was writing to her friend. She then started getting defensive and a bit upset. She asked me why I wanted to know. I told her I was curious. She then started talking about me being suspicious and how she objected to being expected to tell me who she was talking to. How it is none of my business, etc, and how I shouldn't have reason to be suspicious - if I did I should tell her why. I told her that yes I was a bit suspicious too. "So which is it then, are you curious or are you suspicious? You're giving me several different answers here." I told her that I was curious and my curiosity was tinged with suspicion. "Well what are you suspicious of?" I told her I was suspicious that she was texting with OM, but I recognized that this was only part of my motivation for asking her. She started getting aggressive about whether I was curious or suspicious. I told her that I felt like she didn't care what I thought, what I was trying to communicate to her, but rather she was trying to get me to agree to her statement, her categorization of my motivation. She then started going on and on about how it's my problem if I don't trust her - that I destroyed the trust in our relationship by going behind her back and reading stuff when this whole affair started. She kept telling me what I was thinking telling me "I know the twisted things you think about me, how you attribute everything to something other than you." Basically referring to her belief that I attribute everything negative she does to the affair rather than to me, who she really has an aversion to and is really causing the problems.

Well, there's no question in my mind that there's contact. If she had nothing to hide she wouldn't have reacted to this, she would have simply told me who she was talking to or she would have told me that she didn't care to share. I went upstairs and she came up shortly with her face all red from crying. I asked her what was wrong and she told me in a really accusatory way that "I'm not allowed to talk to the man I love, that's what's wrong." She's not making the choice not to talk to him, she's my victim and is a martyr. BS, and I'm weary of this stuff.

Anyway, she went to therapy and returned home and we had dinner. I put our son to bed and then got ready to go to my second job (I probably should have stayed home and slept). I told WW I was heading out, and since she has to get up early I knew she'd be asleep when I got home, I wished her a good night. Well, she got angry at me wishing this. She told me "You know it pisses me off when you say that yet you insist on saying it. My feelings don't matter to you." I responded that I make a habit out of wishing nice things to people I care about and it's difficult to break, nor do I want to because I think this is a good thing. I told her that her feelings had nothing to do with me saying it (I was NOT motivated by her feelings, but rather motivated by my desire to wish good upon another person) to which she responded that that's the problem. In my opinion, this is another attempt at controlling me. She decides to be annoyed at something I do and I have to change my actions in order to prevent her from feeling annoyance. Now a part of this is consideration, but she takes this to an extreme with the idea that she's entitled not to feel annoyance and the fact that I'm not doing what she says I need to do in order for her not to feel the way she doesn't want to feel, I'm doing wrong. I'm not responsible for her feelings. I'm not responsible for caring for her. I care about her and I want a relationship, relating my feelings and thoughts, intimating, communicating. This is not possible if I need to censor myself in order for her not to feel feelings she objects to. Am I off base here? I think I am probably creating or contributing to drama by not just dropping the goodnight thing (although she mocks everything else I say), but I think I'm responding to the underlying abuse issue by not dropping it ("How dare she tell me what not to say!" - it reminds me of the time she told me "don't say that again or I'll kick you in the face")

Another weekend come and gone. WW and I sat down and hammered out a financial plan together. WW kept saying things like "I know I'm going to get screwed somehow" and "I just knew that I would start working and things would be the same. I can't keep any of my money for myself." Basically seeing herself in the victim role. But I respected her actions. I was proud of the fact that she took ownership of the financial situation. It took her going out to work and bring home money to feel any sense of this. She was still somewhat blaming me for the situation and for problems, but the fact that she is working at this as my equal is promising. It's where it should have been all along. We are both responsible. I didn't take ownership of this all in the past because in my mind it wasn't my place to do so - because I could never get her buy in, and she never really wanted a part in the planning, but blamed me for being controlling when I did anything to address the situation. It sounds like an excuse to me, but I really felt boxed in.

I have been reading Bradshaw's "Healing the Shame that Binds You" and have found it very eye opening. I've also been reading about codependency on www.joy2meu.com which provides a really interesting view of it. Ties right in with Bradshaw. I find myself wondering whether I need to make a choice soon about accepting that this marriage has never been functional, that I've never been happy in it and that making it functional and being happy together is not likely to come of it or to resign myself to staying in something so disfunctional and lowering my standards to accomodate it. Reading Bradshaw, I felt such a sickening feeling when thinking about the dysfunctional family model my son is growing up with. That he's going to be shame bound (my WW says to him "what's wrong with you?" all too often, which makes me sick) and continue the multi-generational cycle. My WW doesn't seem interested in resolving these issues, rather she wants to run through the process her mother went through faster, avoiding the years of disfunctional misery by divorcing now (rather than trying to establish a functional marriage/family). The real flaw (not to make it a right/wrong issue) to this thinking is that unless the conscious decision is made to heal, the cycle will continue to repeat, just with different players. How will this benefit my son? To see his parents go through disfunctional relationship after disfunctional relationship, always blaming the other person for the problems. He'll come to believe (if he doesn't already) that people are disposable if they're not good enough, and their actions determine their worth.

On another good note, over the weekend son asked "mommy, do you love me?" and she said yes and then he asked "mommy, do you love daddy?" and she said yes, but then looked at me with her bottom lip pushed out, like she had been forced to say something she didn't want to, speak the truth that she wished she didn't have to reveal. Interesting.

Muddle,

I've never posted to you before, but I have to chime in with your concern for your DS and the lesson he may be 'learning' that people are disposable.

I have that same concern for my DD6, but even more for my DStepS. He is 12. He has always been with his Dad. He was 5 when I came into their lives. His mother was rarely around and when she was, it was not a good influence.

My Ws, had been in numerous relationships during those 5 years, all of which DSS had been exposed to. When I came into the picture, I was the first, real stable influence in his life. WS and I went thru obtaining FULL LEGAL custody and DSS's Mother has not seen or talked to him in over 5 years.

Now, with WS going for the D,,,,,,yet again this child will go thru the feelings of abandonment. I have told him repeatedly that he will ALWAYS be MY SON. I LOVE him no matter what. he told me that no matter what, I've been more of a mother to him than she ever was. I bawled my eyes out over that one. I know he will have a huge struggle ahead.

Am not trying to threadjack here, but want you to know that we all struggle with this area of concern for our kids.

Keep studying and doing all that you can to help protect your DS. It's your most important job!

Good luck! I hope your sitch improves and your family can be healed!

MT,

I'm here!

lol...I just look like I'm here...but I haven't felt like I've been here in a week...

I'm thrilled you're reading on codependency and especially Bradshaw's book. I actually feel tender towards that book...it was revolutionary for me.

"I find myself wondering whether I need to make a choice soon about accepting that this marriage has never been functional, that I've never been happy in it and that making it functional and being happy together is not likely to come of it or to resign myself to staying in something so disfunctional and lowering my standards to accomodate it."

As you are discovering in Bradshaw's book, until you get your own self-image understood, known and dismantled, you won't be in a functional relationship. Because you're half...and I challenge your dysfunctional label, btw. I think you're in a real relationship right now, with all God's offerings...and your life-time poles in it.

JMO

"Reading Bradshaw, I felt such a sickening feeling when thinking about the dysfunctional family model my son is growing up with."

Hey, passed down from generation to generation, MT...and you're stopping that legacy...I felt the same way about my three sons, near grown, sickened, deep sorrow...and so I began to share what I was learning, discovering, exploring...and no, we can't go back, but I gotta tell you, each day forward is terrific...healing and powerful.

(And about the oppositional behavior...gotta tell ya...this is when I believe boys learn to either be aggressive or assertive...this break from "Mommy is me" time is where he's forming his own self-image...and that's what you're undoing as we speak...amazing coincidence? I think not. So he's learning he's a separate, whole, equal human being...or not...and so by doing the opposite, he's saying, "I am separate"...and fighting he feels like an extension of you and Mom...which is why his anger at Mom isn't just about Mom's actions...she can't help they merged at birth and breaking apart into two seperate people takes rebellion, doing the opposite, as they try to find their way to the middle.

Between Parent and Child shows you the middle...and I know you got enough reading right now. Trust yourself and God enough to know that your son is learning...from example, attention, (he studies you), and your changes resonate...farther than you can see. Love yourself enough to forgive, know and embrace...so you will do so with others, as they change (and kids do).

"That he's going to be shame bound (my WW says to him "what's wrong with you?" all too often, which makes me sick) and continue the multi-generational cycle."

Are you bound? Can you not free yourself, same as me and countless others? What if the only way to here was through the road you had to take to get here? Same for your son. Everyone?

"My WW doesn't seem interested in resolving these issues, rather she wants to run through the process her mother went through faster, avoiding the years of disfunctional misery by divorcing now (rather than trying to establish a functional marriage/family)."

If you don't open your mind to not knowing what others are willing to do or not do, without judging their stuff...you won't see how much they change...your cognitive judgment will remain long after the image has changed. Happens all the time...like first impressions...they overlay reality. Choose respectful reality. You don't know what your WW is willing to do or not do other than right now. You're changing your dance steps...so the dance changes.

"The real flaw (not to make it a right/wrong issue) to this thinking is that unless the conscious decision is made to heal, the cycle will continue to repeat, just with different players."

BINGO! She will pass on what she chooses...and you mind your choosing, your boundaries, your awareness...so YOU do not repeat.

My DH and I were talking this weekend and he was relaying how it felt for 15 years of our marriage. I would say, "Do this" and he would, and no matter how he tried, he would hear he failed...because I asked for what I wanted, when I wanted it and in a certain way I wanted it done. No respect. He said, "I was stunned you could change that. When you apologized for doing that which I felt crazy for all those years and you stopped...I can't believe you changed...and you really have. You don't do that. And when you begin, you catch yourself and stop."

Had you asked him three years ago if I would ever change...he would have said a resounding "NO way"...impossible...she's been doing this her whole life, it's who she is and she's not interested in changing, respecting...not for me, our sons...no one. That's what he would have said. Would have been his truth.

"How will this benefit my son? To see his parents go through disfunctional relationship after disfunctional relationship, always blaming the other person for the problems. He'll come to believe (if he doesn't already) that people are disposable if they're not good enough, and their actions determine their worth."

And there are millions who grew up believing this...and they learned like we did, grew and knew that people are irreplaceable...and for me, it took a lot of replacing...destroying, harming and abusing. I couldn't do from what I didn't know then...I can now.

You can now.

Are you sorrowing you believed this, also? Or that your WW's choice of an A brought it home to you the most? That she replaced you...did you hold onto that you are irreplaceable?

You asked how did I see you buying into your WW's definitions of you...each refutation of one of them confirms it...because when you refute it, you make it real. Which is why refuting hurts you...it is a betrayal, and it betrays communication, as well.

Happens automatically..."You're lying!"

"No, I'm not lying."

That validates her accusation.

Instead: "I hear you believe I am lying to you about how I feel, is that correct?" Puts it back on her perception, beliefs...nowhere close to your truth.

Good to know.

"On another good note, over the weekend son asked "mommy, do you love me?" and she said yes and then he asked "mommy, do you love daddy?" and she said yes, but then looked at me with her bottom lip pushed out, like she had been forced to say something she didn't want to, speak the truth that she wished she didn't have to reveal. Interesting."

How does this DJ help you, your marriage or your son?

Thank you for all the time and effort you took to help me with the semantics of perception as judgment (cognitive and interpersonal). I'm still absorbing and greatly appreciate your clarifications.

You're not alone...not for a nanosecond...what you fear is what you fear...know if it is in the present or the future...so you can know if your fear is coming from today, right now, or something out of your control.

Your half is MIGHTY with your son...your half is a lifetime...and I wonder if being a SAHM, when you come home, she's getting out of your way to have a time for your half of the relationship with your son. Remember that what she wanted as a child is what she gives your child...and so do you...same for not wanted. If her mother engulfed her and left no room for her father...this may be an act of love...this removal.

Or not.

Up to you to identify for you, what you wanted from your father and mother and see if it was your father who didn't get out of your mother's way for their half of your relationship with either of them...what your dynamic is at play...to be aware of...good to know.

In our conversation, we were recalling some old stuff from our childhood--one of those pat-down into the dirt stories you recite...and lo and behold, my DH's story took a new turn, which he hadn't recalled until now (as he was speaking)...and it was huge. And mine, shared, did, also...

See, I fell out of the car when I was 5...didn't get run over, but it was my great fear, laying in the road, that I would...matched only by my father not noticing and continuing to drive away (which he was)...so all these years, it's been a symbol of abandonment...being invisible...left.

Until I shared again (this old story that DH brought up), restating all the normal parts of the memory...and this time, I saw my father jerk the car to a stop, his door flying open and he came RUNNING back to scoop me up, and didn't yell about the blood all over...and I didn't get run over...and his face...I saw his face...just mortified and tense...so INTENT...running to me.

My gosh, how do we not remember that for forty years? Because I chose to dwell in lack...and cut out the abundance.

MT, we already have all these answers...we aren't lacking...we are abundant...and we're discovering, getting all of our lives...widening our filters for each step we take inward...heals us outwardly, too.

I promise.

My DH came back...he came back kicking and screaming...full of intensive fear of continuing to be abused...more pain and suffering...and he came back...

I had to stop DJing to stop abusing. Just did.

What you did at dinner at MIL's was awesome...an O&H statement of "I exclaimed because..."

Even better? "I hear you are taking blame as if I'm blaming you for something, is that correct?" Clarify or confirm...which includes them into the equation, communication, respects and validates. Lets you know your filter and theirs...and leaves room for surprises.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Big congrats on the financial planning stuff...seems like you were open to her current response...non-reactively.

And about the "don't say that again or I'll kick you in the face" which is her 3-year-old...if you dwell on that statement...play it over and over in your head...there's a payoff for you...and I believe, it's kicking your butt.

I used to hold the most horrid thing my DH said to me as if he was saying it now...and react as if it was being said (because in my brain, it was now)...so anything less horrid got by...more horrid replaced the previous horrid...and it built up this false wall of protection...because it allowed a ton of abusive behaviors to continue without consequence...'cuz after all, they weren't THAT horrid, were they?

Staying present is listening for where we once dwelled...in the past or the future...and pulling ourselves into the present, the right now...the only place we can be AWARE.

Funny how that works, eh? Same as discounting abuse...not that bad...not as bad as...felt worse, heard worse...when the whole time, being aware of what was would have left us aware of choosing our half of the abuse...instead of manipulating it so it fit inside our fear...

LA

Thanks for sharing your story. My heart really goes out to your step-son.

I hope everything works out for the best with your family, that yours may be healed as well. I appreciate your kind words.

HI, MT, sorry I haven't been around in a while...dealin with my crazy sitch...LOL...I see that you are being taken care of very well! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Take care! Have a wonderfully blessed day! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Interesting - not functional, yet not dysfunctional. Is this what you're saying?


It's interesting to begin to create a comprehensive understanding of what healthy truly is. In all the reading I've done on relationships and parenting, the one thing that has really stood out for me is allowing a child to choose. Making their own choices is what allows them to experience consequences and learn the power of choice. However, I never quite understood the dysfunctional (and "normal") consequences of forcing children to do as the parent commands. When my son says to me "Daddy, I obeyed you" I cringe. I'm torn because on one hand I have a "good boy" who's doing the "right" thing. He's following directions even if he doesn't want to. Now I don't really parent this way, talking about obeying and such, this is more from my W and her family (my MIL), but I find myself at a loss. How do I respond? "That's great"? If I don't respond this way I'm going to make him question whether it's really the right thing to do what he's asked - I want to, because of my own conditioning, praise him. However, I usually try and find a way to ask him about why he chose to do what he did. I want to point out his choice, at the very least, or understand what he sees as the consequences of his choices and why he made the choice he did. This is ultimately what I want for him: to be able to independently make good choices - to be self reliant and self aware and self confident. However, I'm still so cloudy about my own self image, full of doubts about my motivations, questioning whether they are coming from my programming or my present awareness of what's healthy. I'm making the best choices I can with the information I have at my disposal, whether it be from my own childhood or reading I've done.

And yes, it is a wonderful experience to take this journey. I wish I had traveled further down this road before having a child, so I could be a more responsible, contributing member of society (there's some shame for ya), but that's something I can't change.


I totally agree about his oppositional behavior being about defining himself as different. It's interesting though because Bradshaw talks about how toxic shame causes a child to be polarized and either be tthe perfect child or a rebel. It scares me to think that I'm seeing the effects of this. I think we've been relatively good about our parenting in this regard (even if we didn't really know why) because I make every effort to allow him to make his own choices, to do things his own way, to define himself. One of the real difficult issues for us (WW and I) relatively recently was that our son's preschool teacher wanted to have him evaluated. She thought he just wasn't normal, that he had issues, and she was concerned. She really cares about him, this is apparent. We did have him evaluated and it was determined that he is gifted. Gifted children tend to be quirky. One of the biggest issues with this is that people want to make them behave like normal children. They're concerned about how they'll be treated by other children, etc. My WW and I were concerned about this, having our own fears about this very thing. I remember my childhood, being very different and quirky in an evironment where it wasn't safe to be so. Not comfortable. So in my desire to heal my own childhood I thought about how we could get him into play therapy or something so that once he was out of the safe, christian school environment into the rougher public schools he wouldn't face these issues himself. Eventually though, after much thought and debate my desire that he choose to be who he wanted to be won out in me (I was conflicted internally between "fixing" him and allowing him to be who he chose to be). I want him to make his own choices about how he deals with adversity. If he chooses to conform, that's his choice. If he chooses to stand strong in his differentness, that's his choice. I don't think anyone should make this choice for him.

We communicated this to his teacher, gave her articles on gifted children. Her attitude changed. She seems to have stopped viewing him as having problems, stopped focusing on the "problems" and nurtured him and he's opened up. He's not broken, but to treat him like he is will give him good reason to believe so about himself. Like you said about refuting, to focus on fixing problems forces the idea down a childs throat that he has them. The microscope doesn't help anyone.


And this attitude, that everything is as it should be, happened as it needed to, as was intended, is one of the healthiest I can see.


You're right, I don't know what she'll want in a week, in 3, in a year. I only know right now the path she's chosen and is continuing to walk. This is what I believe I stated, what's happening right now. I don't know what will happen. I can't know. Who knows, my attitude and self image problems could prove more of an obstacle to healing in the future than hers. This sort of judgment that puts me in a selfrighteously superior position because of what I'm doing is not what I'm getting at. I am trying to state what my awareness of her reality is. Not trying to do anything with this information other than understand it right now. Slippery slope though.


That's all I can control. But yet I feel so deeply responsible for my son. Not that he's got to be perfect or have a perfect life, etc., I didn't and here I am.


Nobody can predict how another person will be in the future. Thanks for sharing your story here, by the way. My W does this to me. Tells me to do things directly and indirectly, always critical of how I've done something or that I haven't done something she wanted done just because it needed doing. One of the real respect issues I had with her was a really simple thing, maybe insignificant in the overall scheme of things, but she would tell her mom that she would "have" me come over and pick something up, or she would tell me to do it, etc. This complete disregard for my choice in the matter bugged me. When I brought it up to her she told me that it was just a manner of speaking, it didn't mean what I was making it out to. I think that's disrespectful.


Yes, I feel sorrow. I feel ashamed of bringing him into this world in a situation that doesn't provide the nurturing, healthy environment he deserves. He's got the capacity to heal, and to understand things in his own, healthy way though. I feel hurt, sad, mad that I was abandoned and replaced because of my WW's choice to have an A. That my family would choose to be a part of this. That the feelings they create in relating to one another outweigh my pain and the reality of the harm to our child. But I understand that this isn't about me. My pain is really about me, about my wounds in childhood, and this experience between them is really about their experiences, and the shame they feel drives it, it is the driving force behind the grandiosity of choosing to violate marital and familial boundaries. And the squirel cage that living for these feelings puts them in is not something I would wish on anyone. It makes me wonder whether exposing them created a deeper shame than they had before, a cross they had to bear. A cause for them to martyr themselves for. And this is an injury my WW will not forgive, and in some way I haven't forgiven myself for this contribution to her suffering. Partly because it's a major point of resentment, a grudge, and partly because I do acknowledge the pain it caused.


Ok, I know I am assuming the meaning of her gestures - and taking license to believe what I want to about their meaning, but I'm not really sure where the DJ is in this. She basically stuck her tongue out at me. I thought this benefitted both the marriage and my son because she chose to say she loved me rather than saying she doesn't. Perhaps she felt that she had to lie for our son's sake and this is why she made the face at me.


Thanks for conversing about it. I find this sort of discussion very interesting, and fun. You did me a favor.


I wonder too. She has told me that she's consciously avoiding me though.


Yeah, it's the whole narcisistic thing. Her parents never healed their relationship - it was rocky and unhealthy from the time WW was very little. It may just feel like the norm to her. I don't know. Speaking of acts of love though, yesterday WW burned a CD for me that she said she was going to a while ago. I took the fact that she did this as an act of love. I also had a voice in my head that said "if the roles were reversed WW would complain about how the fact that it took so long meant that I didn't really love her". I have done some thinking about this particular voice, and know I have to take ownership of it. This is ME, not my W. It's my own critic that I refute, and I'm able to alienate it by attributing it to my WW. It's the way I think about myself, NOT my WW internalized. This was somewhat profound for me when I realized it. It's easy to think nasty stuff about myself and then attribute it to someone else, building resentment and attributing hurt to them when it's really my own doing.


Wow! What an experience! And what a great example of how much your own perception impacts your experience. My WW tells a story about falling out of a pickup truck when she was younger. I don't remember her touching on her emotions regarding the truama.


And this is why I have such a profound sense of confirmation rather than learning a new idea rather than the experience of learning something new when I apply concepts such as these. In fact, I can remember a couple of distinct epiphany moments in myy teenage years where I felt I almost divined concepts such as just being (as opposed to doing), not making value judgments about other people and acknowledging my false self(s) (in the sense of constructs created as defense mechanisms to protect the true being that's supposed to just be as it is) as detrimental to my life. Never was able to successfully apply these concepts very deeply, and I come to understand now that it's a lifelong journey. I get a strong sense of spiritual affirmation when exploring these concepts under the current circumstances. It's as if I understood what needed to happen, but haven't taken the action to get there. Wisdom without virtue. Story of my life.


And this is what I've come to understand about abuse. It's never about the victim, it's about the abuser. As is DJing. When you DJ you are projecting something with a personal payoff onto an event.


Even though, I find myself DJing even in that situation. I'm saying on some level: they're blaming, blaming's bad, I'm better than they are. I'm not superior. I just am, as they are.


Yeah - but I give her credit for this. I have been open to this for a long time. I have been pushing for this for some time. The fact that she took ownership and made it happen is something that I think is great for her, but I feel some shame for not having done it myself, gotten her to the table, controlled things that I have no control over. And because it's futile to try and change what you can't control, I have a sense of shame about feeling shame for not being able to control what I can't control. Crazy making stuff. Keeps going round and round with its own momentum.


Yeah, it's the self-righteous indignant moral superiority inherent to being in the victimized position. If she's so bad as to do this than I must be good in comparison. Poor me, poor me, poor me. Improves my self image in a warped way. Also, she's somewhat beholden to me because of this.


And this is an interesting thought too. It allows me to discount the low level abuse because it's relatively less severe. I called her on abusive behavior this weekend. I actually think that this was partially responsible for the two of us getting along better than we had in a while. She responded in kind later by telling me that she thought me not acknowledging or answering a question she asked was abusive. I agreed.


Yes, the more I can be aware of it in the present and choose my response to it, the more I'm able to own my contribution to it.

Thanks.

Hey, thanks for dropping by, Rinder (can I still call you this?).

I hope you're doing well.

MT,

"Interesting - not functional, yet not dysfunctional. Is this what you're saying?"

Yep. You know I dodge the labels...from having been an extreme labeler. I go with "It is what it is right now" and focus on seeing what truly is...because I lived in fantasy.

Doesn't mean you did. I know I wanted different, and didn't know what. I know to get to where I am right now, I couldn't have gotten here by envisioning it...'cuz I'm not that creative.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"It's interesting to begin to create a comprehensive understanding of what healthy truly is."

I really like how you stated this...yes, this is true for me, too.

"Making their own choices is what allows them to experience consequences and learn the power of choice. However, I never quite understood the dysfunctional (and "normal") consequences of forcing children to do as the parent commands."

I think that's part of my parental fantasy...that I was making my children...creating them...and their choices were my result.

They weren't. Reality is that our children choose to do what they do and for the most part, they would rather choose to do what they don't prefer, to not having their parents upset with them. Still their choice...their higher want...and sometimes, they want differently. Your son is working this out with you...he's half your relationship.

"When my son says to me "Daddy, I obeyed you" I cringe. I'm torn because on one hand I have a "good boy" who's doing the "right" thing. He's following directions even if he doesn't want to."

Your DJ is in doesn't want to...can you perceive his wanting more your approval, validation, than disapproval?

"Now I don't really parent this way, talking about obeying and such, this is more from my W and her family (my MIL), but I find myself at a loss. How do I respond? "That's great"?"

Very close...you said you want to highlight his choice..."I see that chose to obey this time. How do you feel about that?" Acknowledgment.

"If I don't respond this way I'm going to make him question whether it's really the right thing to do what he's asked - I want to, because of my own conditioning, praise him."

Great self-insight...

"However, I usually try and find a way to ask him about why he chose to do what he did. I want to point out his choice, at the very least, or understand what he sees as the consequences of his choices and why he made the choice he did. This is ultimately what I want for him: to be able to independently make good choices - to be self reliant and self aware and self confident. However, I'm still so cloudy about my own self image, full of doubts about my motivations, questioning whether they are coming from my programming or my present awareness of what's healthy. I'm making the best choices I can with the information I have at my disposal, whether it be from my own childhood or reading I've done."

Sounds like you know you're in this together...so sharing your choices, highlighting them, would be inclusion, wouldn't it? Intimacy and ownership?

Could the cringe be for every time an adult said to you, "Well, this is what you wanted, right?" Very different from what your child asked you...to me, sounds similar with my old ears...different with my new ones.

"And yes, it is a wonderful experience to take this journey. I wish I had traveled further down this road before having a child, so I could be a more responsible, contributing member of society (there's some shame for ya), but that's something I can't change."

Ahhh...there was a reason we didn't get what we didn't get then...doesn't detract at all for the joy of getting it now. And OUCH to the contributing member of society...thank you for sharing that negative voice...and no thank you! ROFL...mine was, "Until you are a decent citizen"...so I hear you. And here you are, a contributing member of the whole human race, all along.

"It scares me to think that I'm seeing the effects of this."

You know, when I suggested to you cutting off the sentence to just "I am capable" I got from your reply you thought I was editorializing...and here's another one. If you add "right now" to the end of this sentence, does it change it's truth? Fear sees into eternity and the endless past...not real. Our fear jumps when we choose to do this...and you're aware more than ever of your influence on your son...his allowance of it is wide open right now...that changes...back and forth...because Bradshaw brings home this circle...from your FOO to his FOO (which you are)...and our fear overlaps...accepting your fear and not acting from it is where we begin to change our FOO patterns.

You already are changing them.

The more you share this in O&H statements with him...share YOUR feelings, thoughts, beliefs...then he can do so in your example...know when he's scared and not act from fear. Know when he's choosing (already doing this), and know he's separate...no polarization there...and I gotta sound like a magpie, but judgment will kill all of this...judging good/bad, right/wrong (and I mean from people's clothes, words, expressions, putting a cup in a certain place (it's a preference), hugging/not hugging). That's what gives us a false place to stand as children...if only we judge correctly, we'll be safe.

And we aren't. We can't judge ourselves to safe.

And then I read about the evaluation coming back gifted.

Warning, tangent alert!!

"Gifted children tend to be quirky."

My stomach just did a flip.

"One of the biggest issues with this is that people want to make them behave like normal children. They're concerned about how they'll be treated by other children, etc. My WW and I were concerned about this, having our own fears about this very thing. I remember my childhood, being very different and quirky in an evironment where it wasn't safe to be so. Not comfortable. So in my desire to heal my own childhood I thought about how we could get him into play therapy or something so that once he was out of the safe, christian school environment into the rougher public schools he wouldn't face these issues himself. Eventually though, after much thought and debate my desire that he choose to be who he wanted to be won out in me (I was conflicted internally between "fixing" him and allowing him to be who he chose to be). I want him to make his own choices about how he deals with adversity. If he chooses to conform, that's his choice. If he chooses to stand strong in his differentness, that's his choice. I don't think anyone should make this choice for him.

We communicated this to his teacher, gave her articles on gifted children. Her attitude changed. She seems to have stopped viewing him as having problems, stopped focusing on the "problems" and nurtured him and he's opened up. He's not broken, but to treat him like he is will give him good reason to believe so about himself. Like you said about refuting, to focus on fixing problems forces the idea down a childs throat that he has them. The microscope doesn't help anyone."

Okay, stomach right side up again. Whew. Great realization on your fixing impulse, identifying where it came from in you, from fear...and how you really got to where conflict isn't to be gone around...it is all about how it is faced, gone through.

That's what I got.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

False tangent alert...stand down.

"That's all I can control. But yet I feel so deeply responsible for my son. Not that he's got to be perfect or have a perfect life, etc., I didn't and here I am."

Yes, we feel totally responsible for our children...and in reality, we are only half of our relationship with them. I believe you'll be able to trust your half and his half...awareness is what is very different right now...and I believe will continue to be in your fathering...if you believe you have to get it all at once to protect him...then how will you grow, side by side, for a lifetime?

And here you are...can you not choose to glory in it for a moment?? What a fantastic, aware, awake and amazing place to be...

"One of the real respect issues I had with her was a really simple thing, maybe insignificant in the overall scheme of things, but she would tell her mom that she would "have" me come over and pick something up, or she would tell me to do it, etc. This complete disregard for my choice in the matter bugged me. When I brought it up to her she told me that it was just a manner of speaking, it didn't mean what I was making it out to. I think that's disrespectful."

I see a parallel here...with "Have a goodnight" and "I'll have him come over"...both are valid. They both contain "have"...and they both address choice. And seems to me you give the same argument back from your thoughtful request that she doesn't do this...when she asks you not to do this..."It's a manner of speaking...I don't mean what you are taking it as."

We marry our mates as caretaking mirrors...find the parallels to find your answers. The flip over really helped me. Maybe I emphasize this too much.

I don't know.

I know it has something truly universal for humans in it...and I get the disrespect on both ends...and I get the intent...the intent is not to harm...and it's doing harm. I bet there are a lot of these that you experience.

(Btw, this is why I trigger to the divorce saying "We just didn't have much in common anymore" so badly...we come together not because of what we do together...but who we are together...there's always common ground if we look. And which is why there is no one bad guy...there are two people making this common ground for great reasons...and what they see in each other helps them to see into themselves. Why there's a lot less conflict than we perceive, and a lot more love than we can imagine.)

So where's your power? "You have to take this over" and you respond, "I hear you're asking me if I will take this over to MIL and what kind of time window do I have if I choose to do this? I'm willing to do this if I can in the next ten minutes, or after 7pm...in between, I'd choose not to."

Great information...respect...and honesty. I have to tell you that doing things was a language of love for me...because I took on everything as under my control...so when DH did it, I felt loved, relieved, supported, appreciated.

You can feel your choice eliminated when you hear "have to"...it remains. That's part of the buying into her stuff I mentioned before. When you know each choice you make is totally yours...each act of love and it's form and shape...you won't hear "have to" as a command. You'll hear it as a request.

Beauty of listen and repeat...you'll hear it when she says it about herself and others, as well. "I don't want to, but I feel I have to"...like the "shoulds" you use in your posts...I trigger to those...I believe I know what you experience...and I remember.

Backing up a bit...I didn't address this because nothing came to mind...had a thought...

"I am trying to state what my awareness of her reality is. Not trying to do anything with this information other than understand it right now. Slippery slope though."

When you focus on being aware of her reality...how do you profit? Do know her reality, which is only right now, from listening and remembering...that's it. Cut yourself off right there. I detect, because that's what I did, that there is a smidgen of self-deception here...your focus more comfortable over there than right here...and I know a lot about self-deception...and more and more as I stay aware...of my own. Doesn't mean you're doing it.

As you highlight your son's choices, and do so with your own, do so with hers...so you can stop yourself when you take off into fantasyland...which would be judging why she's doing what she's doing...which is only within your province about you. Her whys are hers...you can ask for them, to know her truth. What you don't know is okay not to know until she discloses.

Used to be really not okay for me to not know...because this was how I based my actions...on his whys...and he wasn't sharing them...so I looked, pondered, focused and lived in fantasyland to assume I could know...when I couldn't...until shared with, I can't know. This was really hard to let go of...I had about 15 different ways to get his possible reasons under me to make my choices. It's hobbling. What do you think?

"Yes, I feel sorrow. I feel ashamed of bringing him into this world in a situation that doesn't provide the nurturing, healthy environment he deserves."

Okay...first, sorrow is sadness (in my book) which is a healing emotion. When you grieve you weren't brought into this world in a situation that was nuturing, healthy environment you deserved...then you've identified a grievance (which is a healing point) within yourself. Probe it a bit for where you haven't accepted (which is our wishful inner child); and find out if your belief in smooth (healthy, easy, perfect) is bigger than your belief that who we are is shaped by not what befalls us, but how we go through it.

"He's got the capacity to heal, and to understand things in his own, healthy way though."

Yes, and you have the capacity to heal, to understand things in your own, healthy way.

"I feel hurt, sad, mad that I was abandoned and replaced because of my WW's choice to have an A."

These are healthy signals from your belief you were abandoned, replaced.

"That my family would choose to be a part of this. That the feelings they create in relating to one another outweigh my pain and the reality of the harm to our child."

You aren't destroyed or divorced. You're there for your child...saving your marriage. I believe this wholeheartedly. How you choose to act now changes your child's future.

"But I understand that this isn't about me. My pain is really about me, about my wounds in childhood, and this experience between them is really about their experiences, and the shame they feel drives it, it is the driving force behind the grandiosity of choosing to violate marital and familial boundaries."

Gotta insert here...choosing through entitlement.

"And the squirel cage that living for these feelings puts them in is not something I would wish on anyone. It makes me wonder whether exposing them created a deeper shame than they had before, a cross they had to bear. A cause for them to martyr themselves for."

Please tell me how this particular speculation aids you?

"And this is an injury my WW will not forgive, and in some way I haven't forgiven myself for this contribution to her suffering. Partly because it's a major point of resentment, a grudge, and partly because I do acknowledge the pain it caused."

Your WW hasn't forgiven you for exposing her A? (Notice I changed the will not (untrue)...you haven't chosen to forgive yourself for sharing the truth because you believe the truth contributed to her suffering?

You didn't make her resent when you brought and shared reality. Her entire A was based on a grudge perspective. This is a continuation, not the cause. You didn't cause her pain through exposure...her pain is hers...from her, about her.

Gosh, I'm a nag.

Thank you for sharing this.

"Ok, I know I am assuming the meaning of her gestures - and taking license to believe what I want to about their meaning, but I'm not really sure where the DJ is in this."

I had to laugh at this...because you really do have this great way to encapsulate what I spend miles writing about.

A DJ truly is "taking license to believe what I want to about (their) meaning" and then you asked where the DJ was.

Not at you...again, a huge reminder to me of my mindset. And how often I stated exactly what I was asking for...the answer within the statement. Most often, this was during our communication exercises...and I learned to laugh with a read face and big self hug...I delight in this part of me. So does my DH. Now. LOL.

Now you go to support your DJ: "She basically stuck her tongue out at me. I thought this benefitted both the marriage and my son because she chose to say she loved me rather than saying she doesn't. Perhaps she felt that she had to lie for our son's sake and this is why she made the face at me."

Or her WW part doesn't want to the W and Mother part to speak this hideous truth...or you guys have been in a power struggle for so long, it felt like a concession...or she felt five years old remembering when she asked those same questions to her mother and father...or...or...or...we don't know, do we?

Do you really know? How could you possibly know? Until you find the false payoff for thinking you CAN know, you'll continue to not see the DJs. Which harm you...your marriage...and your parenting.

I hear from your posts that you choose to believe in reasonable assumptions...so I'm gonna share another story...

Early in recovery, DH and I had this discussion on DJs. He brought up reasonable assumptions...because we go to all or nothing...as I know you know I do...and he takes the all and I take the nothing and this time, we worked our way to the middle.

He said, "There are reasonable assumptions. If I turn on this faucet, water will come out. Tomorrow, the sun will come up. When I'm tired, I'll sleep."

And I replied..."All those things are reasonable. I see your point. None of them involve human beings other than yourself."

"If you hit me, I'll feel anger."

"Okay. That's reasonable. Did you feel anger every time you tickled me with one of your three-point humor shots and punched you in the shoulder?"

"No. I knew you weren't angry with me."

"There were times when I were...and you seemed surprised and said, 'Ow!"

(My P/A behaviors. Often, he would mock me, I would feel anger, laugh from mortification, and hit him playfully, colluding (but not) in his mockery.)

"Oh."

"So when it's about me...and you're assuming because I've reacted this way a thousand times...would you consider you might miss when I stop, act differently?"

"Yes. That's already happened a lot."

"When I watch for this in me, all my DJs about you and your predictable reactions...when I really get to not knowing...you're new again...and so am I. I love this respect stuff."

"Me, too."

Now...when you are puttering along, humming to yourself and your WW walks by and slams cabinet doors...reasonable assumption (if this is not an established pattern) is that something is up and it's being communicated nonverbally. You ask...you may not be shared with. You're aware...and you stop there, okay with not knowing right now. If it continues, you remove yourself, after stating, "You know I'd really like to hear what you're feeling and thinking right now. You said you weren't in a place to tell me. I feel afraid hearing these sounds--they are jarring to me. I'm going for a walk to calm myself."

And when you return, "I want to listen, if you'll share. If not, my intent remains." And go on.

Do you remember your mother or sisters sticking out their tongue or making smirks of some kind? Did you divine their moods, their opinions, to be safe, to gauge your own actions on?

"Yeah, it's the whole narcisistic thing."

Wow, I triggered here...would you clarify this? As parents, we re-experience a lot of our childhoods in our parenting. That's what I was communicating. We have pure choice to do so, do differently, or find the great parts and the hideous ones...I don't get the narcisistic thing part.

"I also had a voice in my head that said "if the roles were reversed WW would complain about how the fact that it took so long meant that I didn't really love her". I have done some thinking about this particular voice, and know I have to take ownership of it. This is ME, not my W. It's my own critic that I refute, and I'm able to alienate it by attributing it to my WW. It's the way I think about myself, NOT my WW internalized. This was somewhat profound for me when I realized it. It's easy to think nasty stuff about myself and then attribute it to someone else, building resentment and attributing hurt to them when it's really my own doing."

Wowsers...you really do get this flip over thing really well...wowsers...what an insight! And think of all the acts of love for self you've discounted...and those acts others have done. Not nasty stuff...real self-deception practiced to an art. Very human. And you got that you can choose, without justification, that her making that CD was an act of love...you felt it. Consideration, appreciation...from freewill. Thank you very much for sharing this.

"I don't remember her touching on her emotions regarding the truama."

I told that story for decades and didn't share my feelings at the time of it, reflecting on it, through any repetitions. Self-deception...we hide a lot in our stories...and I can't tell you how incredible it was to share this with my DH...and at the same time...hear one with the fuller picture, for the first time, as well. Chokes me up right now...sharing all of ourselves...is more than it sounds...because when we do, we truly share IN our self.

World is mighty different...do you have a story you've pat down in the dirt and point to?

"Wisdom without virtue. Story of my life."

Sticking my editorial nose in...want to add to the end of the last sentence, "until now." Our stories change. They really do.


"And this is what I've come to understand about abuse. It's never about the victim, it's about the abuser. As is DJing. When you DJ you are projecting something with a personal payoff onto an event."

Again, really well said. How do you do that? Now, would you consider sharing some of your false payoffs with me from your previous focus/assumptions? Feelings, beliefs, thoughts?

"Even though, I find myself DJing even in that situation. I'm saying on some level: they're blaming, blaming's bad, I'm better than they are. I'm not superior. I just am, as they are."

I wanted to congratulate you on speaking...and I left out the idea that a respectful response to their statements would have been to clarify or confirm first. Then state. I backed down in myself because I hear myself as negative...pointing out DJs isn't a joy...and I woosed on ya.

"I hear you saying you feel you're to blame for inconviencing me, causing me stress or something?"

Listen and repeat with filter...then appreciation for clarification or confirmation and then O&H statement. Aligns you in respect, doesn't trade DJs for DJs (which is where a majority of our communication falls down that black hole); and affirms your intent to you and to others...whether they perceive it or not. Aligns you to your own through actions. That wisdom without virtue action thingie.

And I'm not stepping over you heard your DJ...way to go. I know you know...just have that above sentence running around in my head and I'm susceptible, still, to crazymaking...so then I doubt my own definition, mentally biting my nails, and throw that onto you. You know. I know you know. You said it best.

LOL

Ack.

"Yeah - but I give her credit for this. I have been open to this for a long time. I have been pushing for this for some time. The fact that she took ownership and made it happen is something that I think is great for her, but I feel some shame for not having done it myself, gotten her to the table, controlled things that I have no control over. And because it's futile to try and change what you can't control, I have a sense of shame about feeling shame for not being able to control what I can't control. Crazy making stuff. Keeps going round and round with its own momentum."

Oh, my head is spinning...being open isn't pushing, getting her to the table...oh, I get it. These inner voices...false shame from not acting in your usual habit...could that come from you taking your half? She may have brought her half to the financial discussion...she didn't make it happen. You had your half. Has the room stopped spinning yet? You really are hearing/feeling a lot of your old reactivity going off...and not acting from it...if I'm understanding you...how thrilled are ya with yourself? Make it HUGELY thrilling, 'k? You just went through four perspectives under a minute...dizzying.

I get that you have had the perspective of either her or you...not you guys together...half and half...am I close?

Giving credit is control. Acknowledging her actions isn't. Stating your gratitude is O&H.

"Yeah, it's the self-righteous indignant moral superiority inherent to being in the victimized position. If she's so bad as to do this than I must be good in comparison. Poor me, poor me, poor me. Improves my self image in a warped way. Also, she's somewhat beholden to me because of this."

I admire your high level of honesty in your sharing. Got a question...could you see how this is more your six-year-old responding to her 3-year-old? I did this with my sibling...which is why I replayed her injurous remarks...for what...forty years...in my head? No kidding. I fed off this and I think kids do...part of finding our place in the world...and we first learn our dimensions...so placing ourselves (like above, below) is natural in seeking out our place...what we have to go through to get to side by side. KNOWING we're doing this in our own heads, as adults, is awesome power...changes our reality.

Good to know you understand the power, the pull, in victimhood...it's seductive, subtle and full of self-deception...you're not bad, alone or crazy. Getting to know your own kid (inner child), to recognize, reparent, and love...that's what I see you doing. Finding your false payoffs (which come directly from our child selves...self-images).

And the beholden part really resonates with me...one of my life poles is debt/gratitude. Gotta have that if I'm earning love and punishment, right?

Oh, I said "have"...

"And this is an interesting thought too. It allows me to discount the low level abuse because it's relatively less severe. I called her on abusive behavior this weekend. I actually think that this was partially responsible for the two of us getting along better than we had in a while. She responded in kind later by telling me that she thought me not acknowledging or answering a question she asked was abusive. I agreed."

This is terrific...and all I want to do is ask...why did you go to judgment? Hang the outcome you experienced on a cause? Are you gathering evidence that calling abusive behavior what it is will heal your relationship? I'm really bad at asking this..another poster awhile back had this...and I am doing my best to highlight a permission here...

If you believe what you did got you guys better temporarily...then that may reflect your penchant for evidence of love (which is another form of earning) disguised in linking outcome. What I believe you did was be really honest, and respectful, from your intent to live from respect and honesty. Your boundaries about you, around you...enforced by you, for you. Let the outcome go...because you might be sneaking old stuff into new...and end up in the old stuff, with your head spinning.

You guys are talking about this...how marvelous!!! Fantastic. I'm just celebrating here...rules of engagement...respect...your definitions...her definitions...discovering together. This was how it was for me...

Will you introduce the "Ouch!"? Say "Ouch" when you feel pain during conversation, and explain you mean you feel pain and haven't traced where it's coming from yet...helps us to detect, as a team, where abusive words/behaviors are coming from. No blame.

So she can use it, too?

And it gives time off from reactive (the ouch statement is reactive, a signal) before we conclude, act...breathing space.

And this is something I would value teaching my sons...okay, I have...I'm asking you to consider teaching your son to say "Ouch" and then tracing, together. To know, not to judge.

Good to know.

(My middle son has used this...in a heated exchange with me and I missed this signal...went right over the top. I'm recalling it now, valuing it...and yeah, I'm gonna call him now.)

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

I don't have much time this am.


I guess what I have trouble with is that it's important to me that he chooses to do or not to do something because of his understanding of the consequences, not because daddy doesn't want him to do it. Not following the direction of an adult, expecially a parent often has negative consequences, but they're not really natural, they're somewhat arbitrary. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not giving him disapproval, I don't disapprove of his actions, I'm just struck with my own reaction and somewhat unsure how to respond in a healthy way. As you point out, acknowledging that he chose (what he chose to do isn't what's most important, it's that HE chose) is a healthy solution. I got caught up feeling that I had control and power and had to do the right thing, so I focused on me rather than acknowledging the choice he made. And I knew the answer to the question even then was in his choice, just didn't know how to convey this praise without emphasizing the obeying - which is what I reacted to. Signals me to look to obedience in my childhood, an open wound there or something.


No no, I don't tell her, I wish her or I hope she has a good night. Same difference. I make sure I own that statement, but in the end she's blaming me for her feelings as I blamed her for feeling controlled, feeling like my choices were taken away.

Yesterday evening WW called me at work, just before I left. She had gotten home from a REALLY tough day at work. Her mother had asked her to come by and open her door for her, and when WW got there she was already in. Her mother hadn't called her to let her know, and then didn't acknowledge her frustration that her time and effort wasn't considered. And then her mother discounted her effort. I really listened and understood her feelings. She called about dinner, and we came up with a solution. I picked up a salad. When I got home WW was distraught. DS was acting out again. I took him upstairs to help me cook some dinner and brought her the salad and drink, telling her that she deserved some time to relax after such a tough day. Basically pampering her. I made dinner and ate with DS (who was very agreeable - it was quality time that I am thankful for). I had a commitment in the evening. I went down and told WW that I was going. She got upset, telling me that it wasn't fair, it was selfish of me to leave when she was feeling this way, especially since the commitment was personal. She told me she felt abandoned. She told me that this was just another example of how I don't care about her feelings. Her feelings don't matter. I told her that I was sorry she felt that way, but I had a commitment and I was going to keep it. I asked her if it would help her out if I got DS into his PJs before leaving (he was still eating dinner) as a compromise, and she conceded.

This was a boundary for me. It's important to me to keep commitments I make and I did. I felt guilty, and I felt like that was her intention, but I acknowledged that I wasn't responsible for her feelings. I did care about them, I felt for her and empathized with her, but I wasn't going to drop my committment so she wouldn't hold her feelings against me.

And I do, I'm just voicing my doubts and concerns. They can exist side by side, with my focus shifting between the too, right?


It doesn't. But it's functional in some way. It allows me to feel responsible for the continuation of the A to some degree.


I do that a lot, making statements about the present, meaning something in the present, yet talking about the eternal future. Significant? I think so. No, WW hasn't forgiven me for exposing her A. She uses it to demonstrate how deeply I betrayed her, and how wrong I was for doing it. To her this indicates that I don't love her, because if I did I wouldn't have hurt her. It's functional for her. It doesn't matter to her what my intentions were, just that the outcome was what it was and I should have known that's what I was doing.

I have forgiven myself for hurting her. That's done. That she chooses to continue to hurt herself with this occurance, playing it again in her mind is no longer my action but hers. I haven't forgiven myself for taking this action and having it backfire, having it erode our relationship further and not do much to damage the A. I know I can't know what the outcome will be before I do something, and I was doing the best I could then with all the right intentions, yet I have this nagging self doubt about it.


No, if anything I gave her an excuse to do what she wanted to. Would you elaborate on the grudge perspective?


That's me, asking you what color the white horse is!


No, I don't know. But I'm supposed to. I'm supposed to know my spouse, supposed to know what certain body language means. I'm faulted for not knowing these things by my W. So I often make the choice to take a stab at it, after all, I might get close and live up to her expectation. Even though I know intellectually that I can't really know. Yet this goes beyond this for me. I used to walk down the street and look at people and see into their lives. Make judgments about what was going on between them and the person they were with, where they came from, what they did, etc. I used think I came close with my deductions, despite how baseless they were. There was a sort of fun in it. Guess that ties in here - but the funny thought I have is that I think this skill is probably better with strangers than with those closest to me (because I'm less likely to project or mirror with strangers).


Thanks for sharing that story.

I do believe in reasonable assumptions. I believe people give you clues to what they're thinking and if you can put together those clues you can understand what's going on with them. And this is a general statement, not a personal one. I think a police officer can be trained to make reasonable assumptions about suspicious behavior that this person might be involved in criminal activity. I think an outreach worker could make reasonable assumptions that someone is homeless based on cues. These assumptions will probably be accurate a high percentage of the time, but not 100%.

In relationships however, this is almost totally flawed. If I were to notice that it's 2:15 and my WW hasn't called me today (not out of the ordinary, but just to illustrate my point) - that's the fact. But in response to noticing this fact I have an internal debate. She's not calling because she's talking to OM. She's not calling because she doesn't want to talk to me. She's not calling because she's pissed off about me leaving her last night without putting DS to bed. I hate that she holds a grudge, and holds her feelings over my head. Shames me for having caused those feelings. Why do you think like this in reaction to her not calling? You know the only thing you know is that she hasn't called. What's wrong with you? You know better. Etc. Why are you beating yourself up now? Why are you beating yourself up about beating yourself up? Ugh, now I feel bad because I couldn't just acknowledge my sadness that I haven't yet recieved a phone call, but on top of that I'm shaming myself for thinking about it in my unhealthy patterns. I felt sad and abandoned, yet now that I'm blaming myself for thinking things that I shouldn't, I'm feeling a lot worse. I can relate to my WW, who often must experience this. But she blames this whole emotional joyride on me for triggering it. I choose not to. How can I judge her? I have NO idea how she thinks about things. And on and on and on, assumption, criticism for doing something I shouldn't have, or don't want to, another assumption comes out in this, then another criticism and judgment and around and around we go. And all because I didn't just accept a fact for what it was. I didn't stop at awareness. (This is a somewhat extreme example of one of these cycles)


No sisters. No, I don't ever remember my mother holding even the slightest amount of contempt for me. I don't remember judging her moods or anything. I think all that came later in my rebellious teenage years.


This came straight from Bradshaw. He's talking about how wounded people are unable to transcend this narcisistic stage because their needs were never met. So they're looking to get their needs met by their children - which is abandonment and abuse because the child can't get their needs met while meeting those of their parents. And onward marches the intergenerational cycle.


Thanks for listening. The thing is that that critic is not all that strong. The real core of my being is appreciative and joyful. Yet there's a cynic in the shadows, looking for opportunities to discount the joy I'm choosing to see. And this is where I see the enmeshment with my WW coming from. Her critic is the loud voice, while her joy is discounted. I desire to heal her, to help her acknowledge the joyful voice. I believe that my love will heal her.


Not sure exactly. What do you mean? A story I've stripped of personal value?


Yes they do. I know. Everything is always temporary. Even something someone always does will not be done eventually.


I think the payoff always is seeing the world the way you want to. I'm often stumped when people ask for specifics. I like abstract concepts better for some reason.


Let me see if I can clarify a bit better. About the finances - I wanted to do this together. I thought this was the right thing to do. I also thought that if I had done this on my own, it would have given my WW plenty of fuel for resentment and anger. It was something I didn't want to do alone because I believe it's not my place. So I hung getting this task accomplished on her. I excused my doing of it by saying to myself we had to do it together. So her coming to the table was permission for me to do my part, I handed her the power of my doing. I give her credit for our doing because I refused to do it alone. So my shame (be it false or otherwise) came from this - from my abandoning responsibility by hanging it on my WW's head. There's no WE unless we're both at the table, and whoever is not sitting there (while the other is) has the power to make the WE. Kindof like the overall powerstruggle. WW wants power more than she wants out of this marriage. By keeping her foot out the door she's got the power, yet she needs the relationship to maintain this power, so her being out of the relationship isn't authentic.


I can.


Judgment? I suppose I have a belief that one of the things that will turn around our situation is boundaries. If I start establishing and enforcing clear boundaries for myself my W will begin to get a sense of safety and security that she doesn't have now. I'm looking for confirmation. I don't think it was so much about calling out my WW on her abuse, but rather using this as part of establishing boundaries. Not so much about the outcome here - but more about the effectiveness of the awareness of the boundaries.


Not exactly. It's still somewhat in the form of the drive by. I want to talk to her about it, but I with hold because I think she'll have contempt for it. Because all the books I'm reading are self indulgence according to her. Another thing I hold onto. Why do I continue to maintain this wall? See her as different and flawed. There's contempt in my holding onto that isn't there?

Yesterday evening I called home to talk to DS. He was sleeping over at MIL's and I wasn't going to see him. WW picked up, and I could tell she was on the other line. She sounded neutral before the negativity vs. when she's aware it's me calling the negativity starts right from the outset. We chatted for a little bit about the evening. I asked to speak with DS. She told me that it wasn't a good time, and then gave me what I believe was an excuse. I believe she was on the other line with OM. The fact that phone numbers were erased from the redial confirms it for me. I was more upset with the lying than anything else.

Since then she's been negative to nasty to me. Last night I went to work and called her to let her know I would stop at the store when I got home. I told her that if she wanted anything she could leave me a list. I was just planning on picking up a couple of essentials. She didn't want to leave me a list, was already in bed half asleep, but rattled off a couple of things she wanted. The whole time she was giving me an attitude.

Today she went through the stuff I bought complaining about how I didn't get anything, and how much of what I got was for me alone. I got everything she asked for, and I told her I was only picking up a few things. She had such an attitude with me, yet told me I had one, and had one in the morning when I said goodbye. I don't really think I did, however the resentment from the interactions the night before might have made itself known (here I go, making myself my own victim).

She started asking me if there was a reason why the mail had been sitting where it was for 3 days. I told her I had been lazy. I hadn't picked it up (avoiding pointing out that she could have something to do with this too). She said that this was why she couldn't live with me. I just don't care unless it impacts me personally. She then went on and on about how this isn't normal, and I don't come from a normal family, so what should she expect. You are this and that. I told her that I didn't appreciate the way she was talking to me. I told her that I am not defective and I do not want to participate in a cconversation where she makes statements like this. I told her I was happy to discuss behavior, but when she criticizes me, my being, I will have not part of it. She told me I was lying about being happy to discuss it. She told me that I wouldn't take any blame for anything, that I say I want to change, but yet nothing changes. She said I was defective for her, maybe not as a person, but defective for her. She told me she has been observing, testing me. We just don't work, and I'm not changing.

To me, in my attempts at objectivity, she keeps telling me I'm the problem and if I would only change things would get better. She suffers because of my action/inaction, yet her belief that she must suffer isn't in question, eradication of triggers is the only solution. Since when is her problem mine much less me? I think I would feel a sense of satisfaction if she were to even own the problem, that the problem is hers. If she were to say to me "H, I have a problem and that is that I don't want to be with you anymore. I'm going to do X, Y or Z, and I'd like to consider you in this process, but this is what I'm doing to solve my problem regardless whether you're involved." Does this seem silly? That I'd like to see her own this rather than continue blaming it on me or the marriage or situations?

Did you know "why?" is an abusive question, human to human?

I say this because of my delight with your post:

"I hate that she holds a grudge, and holds her feelings over my head. Shames me for having caused those feelings. Why do you think like this in reaction to her not calling? You know the only thing you know is that she hasn't called. What's wrong with you? You know better. Etc. Why are you beating yourself up now? Why are you beating yourself up about beating yourself up? Ugh, now I feel bad because I couldn't just acknowledge my sadness that I haven't yet recieved a phone call, but on top of that I'm shaming myself for thinking about it in my unhealthy patterns. I felt sad and abandoned, yet now that I'm blaming myself for thinking things that I shouldn't, I'm feeling a lot worse."

My delight feels squirmy because you wrote exactly what used to go on in my head, verbatim, beautifully captured and owned. A stream of consciousness work of art, IMO.

I want to do this gently...

"I hate that she holds a grudge, and holds her feelings over my head." Flip over...what I hear you saying is that you hate holding her feelings over your head, that your actions are held against you in a grudge way (which IS entitlement...entitled to not forgive or let go). Reasonable feeling, that hate...from fear. Now...is it reasonable to fear yourself holding her feelings (words, thoughts, beliefs, perceptions and perspectives) over YOUR head?

Self is saying no...self-image is saying yes...yes! Fear made self-image...self was made from love. You choose. You can leave her feelings where they are...in her...from total respect and love...or you can keep them as a motivation, a warped aligning thing you do...much like you did when you were a child...spousified.

I know you know this...practice your beliefs...with gentle, loving statements..."I'm holding her feelings over me, like she does. This isn't what I want."

Breaks the cycle of where you become aware of what you choose to think...rather than be aware of the cycle and continue you it to the conclusion you're nuts, stupid or incapable...which is where we all go when we don't stop that which is hurting us...and it's us...by us.

And it makes our partners our enemies in our own minds because even that hurt feels like "if only she'd stop, I'd feel" and we are self-deceiving. We compound our signals when we see them coming in at us, and not from us, for us.

Gives that juicy kick to spiralling thoughts and feelings.

We get addicted to the spiral, MT.

"Shames me for having caused those feelings."

You feel shame for holding her feelings above your head.

No one can shame you...only you can.

"Why do you think like this in reaction to her not calling? You know the only thing you know is that she hasn't called. What's wrong with you? You know better. Etc. Why are you beating yourself up now? Why are you beating yourself up about beating yourself up?"

Can you hear your old, ancient, inner parent in these sentence structures? Those maternal/paternal rhythms? Not really you...borrowed from early on.

Darn...have to go...I'll pick up when I can.

Oh heck..."Ugh, now I feel bad because I couldn't just acknowledge my sadness that I haven't yet recieved a phone call,"

Do you know what you are grieving?

LA

Thanks LA,


I thought so - it seems to seek to invalidate beliefs or reasons for doing something. Seeks out flaws. Something my WW does to me all the time, often saying she's seeking to understand, but my answer is quickly followed with a "wouldn't it have been better to do this then?" or "wouldn't it have made sense to do this?" or "well, a normal person would have thought this" or "common sense should have told you that x, y and z".


Yes, I'm doing this on my own. I acknowledge that. If I didn't care what she thought about me, whether she held a grudge then I wouldn't concern myself with how my actions might impact her feelings. But this is something I acknowledge in the moment too. I don't really resent her for creating the fear. That she's holding a grudge against me because of feelings she created but attributes to me doesn't create my fear. She's not responsible for it, and therefore I don't blame her. I believe I'm sufficiently detached to acknowledge in the moment that I'm not responsible for her feelings, even if she doesn't.

But yet, my actions don't necessarily agree with my intellectual understanding. And this is what's so difficult about making conscious changes in this regard. I still react to some degree to her emotions. That she still tries to push my buttons leads me to believe that she's still getting some payoff for doing so. That I'm still giving her something for her efforts. Some sense of power and control.


Yes, this is what I aim for, detachment from her feelings. I want to empathize, not manipulate. It's really interesting to relate this entire situation to substance abuse. I'm not sure I can really articulate this properly, but what I see is my WW wanting to feel certain ways and not wanting to feel other ways. The feelings are viewed as an end in themselves. Mood manipulation. The same payoff a substance abuser is looking for. The same drive. There is such a detachment from feelings that they are not looked at as signals, as information. Been there, done that.


I totally agree with this. It's interesting, though, because WW refuses to own her emotions. We've had this conversation before about feelings and she says my actions create her emotional reactions. It gives her all the reason in the world to see me as the enemy. She's doing something she feels guilty about, whether she acknowledges the guilt or not, so when she talks to me she feels tinges of guilt and because she chooses to believe that I'm the cause of her feelings, I'm to blame. Even though her actions are the driving force behind her feelings.


I know I need to participate in it to be affected by it, but what would you call it when her intention is to make me feel guilty or ashamed?


Yes. Not me, yet so much to learn from them.


No friggin clue!

Couple of things I wanted to mention. Last night WW told me:

"You told me in the past that people can choose their feelings."
I responded that I don't believe that I said that. I told her I probably said that I believe people can choose to think and interact differently, impacting their feelings. This is what I believe. Your feelings are your feelings - responses to stimuli. You can't just choose to feel different, but you can impact them indirectly.
"So you're saying that you can choose your feelings. Why can't you just tell me I'm right when I am? We have these circular conversations where you dispute what I'm saying and then come around to say the same thing that you disagreed with in the first place. I'll tell you why, it's because you always have to be right."

I'm not really sure what was behind this, but this is one of those dynamics that I have a hard time with. She makes a statement about what I think, and it doesn't reflect my thinking, so I try and clarify, she hears what she's listening for in what I'm saying, and confirms her original assertion, then tells me that I always tell her she's wrong and then say the same thing she originally said. The distinction is significant a lot of the time, as I think this example illustrates, yet what she takes away from the conversation is confirmation of her worthlessness, her inability to be right, etc., etc., etc. I don't know how to navigate a conversation like this without being the bad guy in her eyes. I guess I have to accept that that's what she's looking to make me, so she'll find it in our interactions somewhere.

The other thing she said was:

"You are so damn selfrighteous. You think you can't do anything wrong. You don't check yourself to see how you really are. You think so highly of yourself you make people want to show you what you really look like. You make my want to push you down."

If that isn't the abuser articulating how she feels she's a victim of the victim, and her actions are attributable to her victimhood I don't know what is!