Those are some very good signs. WS's expect anger and hostility. That gives them excuses not to try to come back to the marriage.

This is why Harley's ideas work. Be cool, calm and collected and be a SAFE place for her to return.

At the same time you are learning and growing, your wife is like a scared doe, with a mountain lion in the area. She's scared, and doesn't necessarily know where to turn. You provide the safe place for her, and protect her, even from some of her own fears.

Don't make every conversation about your relationship. Start aiming for Harley's recommended 15 hours a week together, reconnecting. Do those things you used to do that were fulfilling for both of you. Limit your "affair" conversatons to a couple of times a week, and limit the time to 1/2 hour or so. If either of you start to lose it, call a time out, calm down and resume. This process cannot be rushed. It will take whatever time it takes.

The AD's should help you stay calm and collected. This is a good thing.

Best wishes,
SD

**great post M2l**

Chicagodad,

I'm just about in your situation with my own wife. Exposed the affair on 11/2...finally exposed it to the OW on 12/8 (and that was 4 weeks too late!!! It should have been the first thing I did, but too scared, shocked, unsure to do the right thing. Plus I did not find this place until early December.

But let me tell you how much of a difference 2 weeks has made. I too am ill-equipped to deal with the slow pace of recovery. I want to roll up my sleeves, ge tto work, and fix what is broken. The WS is just not ready-yours or mine. It's the most difficult thing we will ever go through, but keep visiting this site, reading all of the good advice and do what you can on your end. All of the behavior you see from your wife are behaviors I have seen from mine. that is the most reassuring part of visiting this site. We are not crazy or alone, and our WS is not behaving in some uniqe way. There is a pattern to this behavior. Take comfort in that alone. Just this week I found a Marriage Building book in her closet. I have never been so damn happy in all of my life. The principles expressed in it are very similar to the ones from Dr. Harley so I feel good about that. As hard as it is to do follow the Do's and Don'ts from Maybe2late. They are excellent. And as your wife begins to show signs of normalcy the do's and don'ts become more natural. My wife went from this statement just 2-3 weeks ago: "I want to have you as a friend not a husband" and "I'm not attracted to you" To this statement this week: "I'm just not ready to work on our marriage yet" and this "I'm not ready for marriage counseling yet." That is a huge step! The "yet" is major progress. You need to look for small victories. I've come to discover that. Last night she asked me if I wanted to watch "The Office" with her on television. It seems so mundane, but for guys in our situation it is hope-it shows a complete turnaround. That is what you need to focus on. The small things that prove she is moving in a more positive direction. She is NOT going to run up to you and throw her arms around you. That's obviously what we woud like, but since it's unlikely we need to find positives in some other way. Look for these small gestures, and file them away in your mind. They are all we have to cling to in these desperate times.

I'll tell you what has helped in my case as well. some may agree others disagree, but I called a running friend of my wifes whom we are both friends with and for whom we both have a great deal of respect. I knew her view on family, and I knew her ability to be someone whom my wife could gain some strength. I told her my wife was in distress and had no one to talk to, but asked her that she NOT tell my wife I had called. This was early on in the discovery. She hesitated, but agreeed. I did NOT tell her about te affair. After a couple of weeks I called again and told her of the affair, since if she was to be of help I thought she needed to know. she had guessed at it already. Just last week in one of my wife's discussions with her she confessed the affair to her. Now the dialogue is open, and she is really helping my cause because she wants to help my wife realize what she has, and what she would be giving up .
You must be VERY sure of the person you bring into the situation to help your wife if you do this. If you have ANY doubts about the persons ability to help your family situation DO NOT DO IT! But if you are sure as I was, it could really help you

Good luck, and remain positive

chicagodad...

How about an update? Things going ok?

SD

ok here goes,
I have backed off all of this advice searching on line for a while. It seemed like I was getting a lot of differing opinions leading to even more confusion on my part. I have started a really good plan "a" wife found my cell phone reader software and got really mad. I told her it was only to proctect myself and family . We have been getting along much better lately. She seems to have given up on looking at OM's pics on the computer. She has also stopped listening to all of those "lost love" songs. I wrote a couple of poems for her letting her know that I wasn't always the man she needed me to be and that I now realize that she needs a man to be that way. That man is me and I am determined to make it so. We have made love 3 times this past week. I don't know if she'd trying to reassure me , feeling guilty, or covering something up with a smokescreen per se. Friday night she came home from a night out with her girlfriends. We sat and talked for a while not about the relationship just nice things. It was very good. She went to bed and asked me if I was coming to bed. When I did she was "waiting " for me . Practically jumped my bones. It was really really great. She had never been so vocal or involved in our love making in years. Well about 3/4 into it I thought I saw a blue light coming from behind the bed. I am thinking maybe it was her cell phone on speaker so the OM could get off. This really disturbed me to think that she was imagining being with him and not actually there with me.I confronted her about it afterwards she denies that the phone was even in our room. I never really saw or heard the phone. Maybe it was just a mental flash in my head? I hadn't ha dsuch a good time witth her in years and was really convinced that she wanted "ME" again. Am I just being paranoid? I hope so. Well the next couple of times "I" initiated the sex and she wasn't vocal half as much. Then again she hadn't been drinking those times either. She insists on her word that she hasn't called OM since the NC 12/15 and that she has had no communication with him in any other form. I am just going to keep up my plan A and see what pans out. Just feel that some of the responses I get here may actually be counterproductive by putting ideas in my head that are unwarranted .Such as she is definately still in contact, You need to spy on her set up hidden recorders etc. I really think she knows that I should be the man she needs. I think she is just confused and unsure of me giving up my old ways. I had issues with pornography, until nc-day I told her I threw it all away and that if I started again I would tell her right away. The honesty thing ya know. I also drank a lot. I would drink anywhere from 3-12 beers a night every night. I told her that is how I made it through while I watched her falling in love with another guy. Now I realize that was why she didn't want me anymore. I have moderated my drinking substantially. I had 3 beers at our New Years Eve party. None since. Just waiting to see how my changes pan out and let her see the positive changes I have made so she can feel like this is a comfortable and loving place to be.

chicagodad... sounds like things are progressing pretty well. Thank you for the update. One always wonders how things turn out for some people who just vanish from the boards... !!

There is sometimes a brief honeymoon period when you begin reconnecting, so enjoy that while it exists <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Don't read TOO much into it though, as all things shall pass. WS's coming out of affairs sometimes have a heightened sexuality for a while, too, and it varies with all couples how it plays out.

Great job on the self improvement. The porn and the drinking were probably some huge issues with your W, and dealing with them they way you are is a REAL positive. Cudos to you, and best wishes for continued success. If only I could quit smoking!

Don't fall completely asleep on your "awareness". I would urge you to snoop periodically until you are certain the OM and your W are maintaining the NC. It is critical to recovery and the "pull" of the addiction will take some time to diminish.

Overall, I would say you have an A-/B+ in your recovery efforts. Stick with Harley's principals, and use "His Needs/Her Needs as a foundation to a marriage that is much more affair resistant than the one you had, Pre-affair.

Best wishes,
SD

thanks again sd,
Like I said lots of conflicting info here. I have heard that when a ws suddenly starts acting normal again it means the affair is ongoing. I just want to believe that she is happy to see that I have made adjustments in my life to make our family and myself survive.I have my days when i doubt her sincerity or honesty. Have seen nothing concrete to tell me she is still in the affair. Just have doubts. Paranoia? I keep telling myself just keep your head up kid. It is the only way. I also told her that I think we should start the New Year fresh. Let's put everything in the past behind us and start fresh. Also wrote her this little poem. Tell me if you think it is too sappy or makes me seem pitiful.

My love I am devoted
To care for you like I should have
To love you like I should have
To be the man you want and need like I should have
To honor you like I should have
To make you happy like I should have
To bare my soul to you like I should have
To share my deepest feelings good and bad like I should have
To tell you how much you mean to me like I should have
To avoid doing harmful things like I should have
To be the man who makes you feel sexy and wanted like I should have
To be the man you can confide in like I should have
To protect you from all harm like I should have
To show you how beautiful you are inside and out like I should have
To hold you tight and feel your heart beat next to mine like I should have
To gaze into your chocolate eyes and see no pain like I should have
To be totally open and honest like I should have
To never betray your trust in me like I should have
To defend you like I should have
To fight for what is right like I should have
To be the man who comforts you like I should have
To lift you up when you're feeling down like I should have
To learn from our mistakes not resent them like I should have
To forgive like I should have
To provide a safe and loving home where you want to stay like I should have
To be here for you like I should have
To listen when you talk like I should have
To know you inside and out like I should have
To be a man, strong and true like I should have
I am rededicating my life to YOU like it should be
Unconditional love

I think that you (all of us) should keep a list like that in our pockets and review it daily! If we even hit 50% of those things on a daily basis, there'd be a lot fewer people needing these forums.

Except if I mentioned chocolate eyes to my green eyed wife, I'd be in a world of hurt!

It's a great poem, and reflects the permanent Plan A we should all live.

Keep us posted on how things develop for you.

Best wishes,
SD

Good morning all. Had a very enjoyable weekend with my wife. We spent every minute together. She actually said thank you to me for something I did and is helping me around the house.Haven't had even that for years now. Things seem to be going well I still have things that trigger my hurt though. For example the OM lives in Hamilton , Ontario we drove past a street named Hamilton and it sent me into a funk for hours.I also had an issue last night I laid in bed and couldn't stop thinking about details of the affair. We have never really sat down and honestly talked about it yet. So I may be dreaming up unrealistic senarios. Well I started looking for her purse while she slept. I couldn't seem to fall asleep. I found a number of International calling cards. To call Canada I am guessing. I also found a receipt for one that she bought the day before she left town for a weekend back in August. I checked the balance and she had used over an hour of its time. That card is now expired. I then found a receipt from our local post office for a 5 ounce large letter type package sent to Canada in sept. 2005. As well as a current intl calling card with 119 of 500 mins. remaining. The sick thing is that it is right in her little card wallet with d/l debit cards etc. and has a post it note on it with OM's cell phone and work #'s I made the mistake of writing my cell number in between his. Thinking maybe that would remind her to keep me in her head. I was sick I felt like throwing up. I went into the bedroom and layed on the bed staring at her wondering if I should wake her up or not to discuss. I decided against it because it would have been a huge LB while in plan "A" I am thinking. The package was sent 15 months ago while we were still having our biggest marital probs. I think we are making progress now. Should I just ride out these storms and wait until we are to the point of her being willing to reveal all to me? Should I just tell myself these are from the past while she was involved in an affair and just look toward our future togethr with a hopeful eye? I have written down the calling card # as well as it's pin. I will monitor it's use in minutes. She keeps most of these cards and #'s in a little book in her purse. It also has pictures of her favorite things various e-mails and passwords as well as a number of e-mail adresses and phone numbers of other guys she has come across over the last 7 years or so. She has only been in contact with this Steve guy for the past few years. There are also poems which she wrote to the tune of a hopeless marriage and life. As well as her need and desire to be with the new object of her affection.The affection one I believe was written about one of the other guys who is long since been forgotten about. Should I ask her to open her book and share with me page by page it's contents and what her feeling were about them?I am not sure if I need to be a patient giver and just be the best me I can. Or a taker and get the answers that I want right now.

Get rid of the phone number and the calling card! Get rid of everything that has to do with OM in the house! Erase all of his email, pictures, block his address, etc. If she doesn't then you need to.

This is like your wife is an alcoholic, but she doesn't want to pour out all the liquor bottles she has in the cabinet. At some point she may relapse, so you need to make it HARD for her to get access to it. Get rid of it all. You are WELL within your rights. Withdrawal is HARD, and she will contact the OM again if you don't prevent it.

My WW agreed to NC with OM on 11/8. Do you see the two breaches of NC on my signature? She used to call him on her cell phone all the time. I deleted his number from her cell, I deleted all his email and blocked his address, and I threw away all his contact info. Well about 3 weeks after NC, I found a prepaid calling card in my WW's wallet. She had called up her friend who still had OM's number, and called him from a pay phone. I immediately ripped up the calling card. Almost 3 weeks later, she did the same thing, only disposed of the calling card before she got home. Little did she know that I was monitoring her credit and debit purchase and I caught that one as well. Don't underestimate the power of withdrawal, and don't leave her easy access to contact OM. You need to help her through withdrawal.

I am also thinking about calling this guy's cell phone using the phonecard. Just to see how he answers the phone thinking it's her. I also wanted to have civil a man to man conversation with him expressing the incredible damage that is being done due to their selfish behavior. Bad idea?

Good idea. And I would also drag all this stuff out of her purse and dispose of it.

How do I get through the day/night ? I can't sleep I still love my wife with all my heart but there is this feeling of being the unknown. I don't know exactly what happened I don't know if they've ever exchanged i LOVE YOU'S though pretty sure they have. I don't know if I am even in her future plans. I don't have any direction. I have a goal but am unsure if it's attainable. I feel so lost , lonely,afraid,hurt,confused. i just keep telling myself, one more day kid. One day at a time. All I can do is be the best me that I can and hope she sees that kid she fell in love with 16 yrs. ago coming out of his shell/armor?

Chi Dad,

OM, most times, will not care what he did. If he did care, they don't always tell you. Leave it alone

This stuff of your wife's is in the past. Things she did months or years ago. I would say something like this:
"Mrs ChiDad, by having any phone numbers or pix of OM hurts me deeply. If you have any, would you go thru them with me and toss them out? This way you two are togther on this and you are trying to help her, not just LBing by tossing her stuff out.


Let yesterday be yesterday and be the best you can today. Your old marriage is dead - make a new one better.

your doing good it sounds

I agree m2l thanks. I was thinking that if we went thru it together I could get it out and throw it in the past while it's ther it's in the present.I want to do it with her so she can see/feel my pain and I can understand what she was thinking at those times.I wasn't there emotionally for years. Now she thinks I have had divine revelation or something and am just trying to win the love battle between me and the msn she loved/loves now?Trying to show her that isn't it at all I just want to reconnect and get to know her again. Thinking by going thru these things together would allow us to share feelings from both sides of the fence on this whole affair.

cd, I would certainly not pretend like you didn't see those things, but bring them out into the open and dispose of them. The thing is that if she does not stop this lifestyle, you will have to make plans to move to Plan B. Otherwise, you will become her enabler and won't have a marriage.

As far as confronting the OM, this is a practice that has been recommended by Steve Harley and Dr. Harley and can be very effective. Often, the OP does not even know the WS is married. When I confronted the OP in my H's affair, the affair ended THAT DAY. Confronting the OP allows him to put a real live face to the person he is harming. It also sends the message that you are willing to fight for your marriage. Make as much trouble as you can for him! Tell him who you are and ask him what his intentions are with your wife...

ok 2 different opinions regarding me contacting OM. I am so worn out and don't know what I should do. I also worry that if i do call him, he may call my wife and tell her. Which I presume would go against the policy of joint agreement me not asking her if i should call him. There are so many things to keep in mind I don't want to cause a chain reaction here. She claims that it is over NC since 12/15 says he doesn't want to talk to her. I really want to call him though and like you said ML show him that I am fighting for what I care most about. That I am not some clueless moron watching my life slip thru my fingers. I don't even know what type of person he thinks I am based on whatever my wife may have said about me / us.
Also I wuld like if someone would post some sort of guidelines I should follow if I do call him. What approach should I have.

POJA only works when BOTH parties are working on the M, not when one is a WS. I agree that if it truly does seem to be over, do not contact OM. As long as NC has been established and is not being broken, continue with NC. However, get rid of all of the affair paraphenalia. That will only invite her to break NC, and hurt you when you see it.

cd, I am sorry for the confusion. I am not sure why M2L advocated against contacting him, but I personally know of no reason why you shouldn't.

But, we are hoping the OM WILL contact your W. That is pretty much an expectation. She needs to know also that you are not willing to sit by idly while she destroys your marriage. You have no reason to keep this a "secret." Contacting him will cause conflict in the affair. And if he does contact her, you will know for sure that contact has resumed.

When you call him, identify yourself as WS' husband. Tell him she is your wife and you have 2 little girls. Tell him you know all about his affair with your W and ask him what his intentions are. Tell him you will do what it takes to save your marriage and ask him to stop all communication with your wife.

Jim is right, this is not a matter for POJA.

Should I bother to ask him details? Let him know that I despise him for "courting " my wife. He knows full well that she is married, naybe not happily but married.