Techie... you seem to be a person that cannot get out of his own head and his own way. Do you think it might be time to take some of the good advice being offered you here since your way has led you exactly nowhere?
You say she will hurt you as long as you love her... yet you continue to make yourself available for that hurt.
In reality.. it almost appears from the outside in that you have a death wish for your marriage. You see that it is bleeding... you know it is in need of some serious intervention... yet you stand there and let it die... all the while saying "poor me." Well, I do feel sorry for what you are going through... but I am beyond baffled at your lack of effort in changing it. People here hae told you the hard road that has led many out of the darkness... yet you stand there for months on end doing very little to help yourself.
There are time when you come to the forum and write posts that almost seem like a diary entry as though the people have come here to read your story for entertainment. Do you want to live in this state of pain forever? What do you get out of doing nothing... because obviously there is some payoff for you.
So hang on to your Wednesday dinners and let things die without a fight. You say your heart is telling you it is time to give up now... I say you will regret not doing everything you could to fix this. You are truly not "leaving it all on the field."
I wish you luck.

I have scarcely "done nothing". I have just not done what a lot of people on the forums have told me to do. I have instead tried to do what Steve H. has suggested I do. and it has not been easy. He has told me to do things (and not to do things) that strongly go against what my normal habits would have been.

I think as Owl suggested, it is time for me to check in with Steve, and see if he has anything further to suggest to me.

so, i talked to steve this morning.
that's about all I have to say about it right now.

got a lot to think about. probably wont be updating my thread for a while. dunno.

blog entry;
I was told by my lawyers to email her a formal request for reverting to 50/50 time for the kids. So I did, on saturday.
She only read it wednesday night/thurs morning. (which sucks, because wednesday night,before then, was a nice night for us. I thought she had already read it by then.)

she replied thursday, saying she is "thinking about the situation and what is best for our children." and will reply "early next week".

Techie,
There isn't anyone here who's going to be of any use to you if you don't share what SH recommended for your course of action.

Actually, I'm not sure what the point of posting here would be, if you're not looking for the forum's advice and assistance in working through rebuilding your marriage.

From our perspective, it appears that SH is giving you guidance that is contradictory to what he advocates in the rest of his material. Or you're misinterpreting it in some fashion. Or our understanding on this stuff isn't what we think it is.

So what's the gameplan from here?

Owl:

You don't really expect an answer from techie, do you?

This forum is nothing 2 techie but an anonymous blogsite.

-ol' 2long

Owl:

"it appears that SH is giving you guidance that is contradictory to what he advocates in the rest of his material."

HIS material, or his father's? I think most of the "Material" on the site, is actually from Willard Harley, is it not?



2long: go away please

I'm not aware that there's a difference between their 'materials'.

What does it matter which Harley provided the material? It's all part of the SAME program...Marriage Builders. As far as I've known, there's no distinction between which counselor you deal with.

Again, so what's going on, what's the gameplan, what are you hoping to get from the forum?

FYI: i'm mostly in a holding pattern, still waiting on her promised reply for "early next week", ie; this week.

last night was a first, though... she called me, at a time we had previously agreed upon, to talk about "trust issues". Kind of.

The "kind of", was that when she called me initially, (around 3pm) she developed a headache 2 minutes in, and said she would take some aspirin and call me back when she had a clearer head.
She called me at 7:20pm, saying "havent forgotten you, but still not feeling good". and then finally at 9:30... "to show you that I did call", but was too sleepy to have any meaningful conversation.
I asked her when a better time would be, and she first suggested wednesday morning. That didnt seem to be a good time for me, so she alternatively suggested thursday.
(that in itself, was a very nice thing to experience. her agreeing to specific times to talk)
I also asked her what kind of format made her feel most comfortable for talks; in person, online, or on the phone. The phone seemed to win her vote. Not my personal favourite, as I don't always feel like she's paying attention to me that way. but I'll go with what makes her the most comfortable.

In the brief period we were talking about US, (as opposed to "when can we reschedule?), she brought up the "no trust, gotta have trust for marriage, trust is not recoverable between us, " thing. (I plan to discuss that with her thursday). but she also brought up that she's still suffering from past hurts between us.

[recap: her view that I treated her as dumb; me bugging her about her weight (not just for attraction reasons: half the reason was for *medical* reasons.) and my past use of pornography.]

i've stopped bugging her about her weight for months now. (if not years) I haven't used porn for 5+ years. The "Treat her as dumb" thing.... We still need to work out some kind of style of discussion, where "Me disagreeing with her opinion" isn't equated with "Me treating her as dumb".
I'd really like her to give me feedback in those cases. I'd really love her to say, in the middle of things,
"you just said XX. When you say XX, that makes me feel like you think i'm dumb".

If she choses to actually work with me on those things, I know we can have a great marriage.. way better than what we had before. The trouble is that she is deeply withdrawn, and seems quite determined to just keep her focus on the hurt, rather than look at, "how might we heal the past hurt, and avoid future hurt?"

"what's the gameplan, what are you hoping to get from the forum?"

well, right now, I could use suggestions on how best to talk with her about the issues I mentioned in my post above.

techie -


How about she talks, you listen? Don't try and steer the conversation, let her steer it. Listen and repeat.

If she says "We don't have trust between us.", then you say "I hear you say we don't have trust between us." Don't try and interpret what she says, don't try and lead her to the answers you want.

It's a hard thing to do. The idea here is that you need to make it "safe" to talk with you. You don't have to agree with what she says, but you don't need to defend yourself. If she brings up old issues that you've talked about, just listen. You've stated your position plenty of times - she knows what you think and feel (or more accurately, she has her own perceptions of what you think and feel).

Use this time to show her that you are safe to talk to. No AO, DJ or SDs. Present her with a calm, collected, open-minded techi who really wants to hear what she has to say.

It will take time for her to believe that you're safe to talk to. I wouldn't expect much out of the next conversation, if anything. Just show her that you will listen to her, that you do hear what she is saying, and that you value her opinion AND respect her right to have her opinion.

View the talk as her time to share what's on her mind with you. In other words, do the one thing that most guys find the hardest....really listen to your wife. Hear what she says - not what you think or want to hear.

She appears to be giving you an opening for talk. Give her the opportunity to use this opening. If she does, great. If she goes into the same old song and dance, or you start to lose your cool or composure, politely tell her that you can't talk anymore at this point, but also ask her if you can resume at a later date, and offer times that would work for both of you.

good advice...
my main problem is that she doesnt talk about it much at all. mostly just says, "there's no trust", and leaves it at that, unless I poke and probe.



here's a thing. she overstates... there is SOME trust. she trusts me in some areas, and I trust her in some areas.
I think that's a positive thing to point out. how do I bring that up, without coming across as negatively contradicting her?

Then ask questions that get her to speak about what she's feeling/thinking, but don't lead her in a direction.

"Ok...you're telling me that there is no trust. Can you explain what you mean, give me some detail?"

And what HB said is RIGHT on the money. Let her talk. LISTEN to what she says, don't interrupt, for ANY reason. If you have a question, wait til she's done talking before you ask. If you disagree...wait until it's your turn to talk to disagree. But for the most part, don't even comment if you disagree on something right now. Simply listen, and provide feedback to her that you're hearing what she's telling you.

Here's another tip: If she gets angry and starts yelling...shut up. Let her finish her tirade...LISTEN to what she's saying, but don't react to it. When she finishes, pause for AT LEAST 5-10 seconds before you say or do ANYTHING. Then, reply back calmly and QUIETLY. The louder she is, the quieter you get. If she screams at the top of her lungs, your reply should nearly be a whisper. It'll force her to listen to you, even if she doesn't want to. Do NOT raise your voice in this...ever. No matter what she says or does. No AO's, no DJ's, nothing but LISTENING to her and thinking about what she's saying.

Make sense?

The whole thing will let her know that it's safe to communicate talk to you. She won't be beat down for it. Don't worry about educating her at this point...if she asks a question, answer, but remember she's not wanting a lecture.

Give this a try...I bet it would help.

well, kinda.
she said something like, "ok, we can talk, but if you're expecting a win or something, you're not going to get it".
Also, in these kinds of situations previously, she has said words to the effect of, "I'll listen, but that's about it". IE: "I'll sit still for a while so you can blah blah blah at me, but I wont participate".

I'd really like to hear what she has to say, and learn more about her feelings... and of course, brainstorm together about possible things we can do to address what she tells me. IF she tells me anything more.

Trouble is, she doesn't seem to want to say anything revealing about herself.

Owl said:
" Let her talk. LISTEN to what she says, don't interrupt, for ANY reason. "

Hmmm. I think I blew it on that score last night.
I think I need to remember that .
Trouble is, sometimes, she keeps going through about 5 different subjects. it's tough to remember them all and show that I have heard what she has said, when she doesnt pause., or give me any kind of time to reply.
(doesnt seem like she particularly WANTS me to reply; just rant).
sigh.

Hi Techie -


What she believes you're expecting is hers to own. I believe you've said all you need to say. If she wants to talk, let her drive the conversation. If she has nothing to say, then accept that for what it is - she has nothing to say, or nothing that she wants to say to you. Her choice to share or not.


If that's the approach she takes, then simply reiterate that you've said all you needed/wanted to say, and you are interested in what she wants to say. Given the perceptions she may very well have, this may be something you'll need to repeat until she decides to take a chance and open up to you.

When/if she does open up to you, you keep the environment safe for her to continue to do so.


You were doing really well with that line of thought...until you got to "of course". Drop the of course for now. This is not the time to brainstorm about things you two can do to address what she brings up - UNLESS she wants to. Even then, you need to let her drive the conversation until you've proven that you can be safe to talk to.

By safe to talk to, I'm talking about what she feels and believes. You may very well believe you are very safe to talk to, but if your wife doesn't believe it, it does you no good.


Have you given her an honest opportunity to do so? Without trying to problem solve, make judgements, defend yourself, etc? If you've talked in person, what does your body language say?

Body language is, IMO, huge - especially with women. My wife pointed out that while I was talking with her in a calm and rational manner, my body language was 180 out from what I was saying.

This is, I feel, a very tough thing for a BS to do. You're basically going to have to hange it all out in the air - you are going to be (potentially) more exposed to emotional injury than you'll ever be comfortable with. But if you truly want to dialogue with your wife, you're going to have to take that risk, and the resultant emotional lumps, and let it roll right off your back. Take what she says for what it is - her feelings, her thoughts, her perceptions, and leave it at that.

Respect her right as an adult and an equal to have her own opinions. If something she says rubs you the wrong way, put it aside. Later, after the conversation is over, you can mull it over and see if maybe there's something to what she said. If there is, and it's something you can change, then set about doing it.


It's often stated that men tend to want to jump in and offer suggestions on how to solve a problem, when all the wife really wanted was a sympathetic ear/shoulder to talk to/lean on.

If she gets going to fast and you're getting confused or lost, wait for a pause and ask her to slow down, or pick one issue at a time to talk about, because you're getting confused and you really want to hear what she has to say.

You are under no obligation to respond to anything she says. If it doesn't make sense, ask for clarification (again without trying to lead her to the answer you want or think is correct). If you disagree, simply repeat back what she said.

Here's an example (I'm not a counselor, so take it for what it's worth):

"I can't trust you any longer."

"I hear you say you can't trust me any longer."

And leave it at that. She's an adult - she's your equal. Give her the respect and courtesy of allowing her to draw her own conclusions.

Often times, it seems, when someone says something to us in the way of a complaint, and that complaint would be unreasonable in any normal state of mind, having that complaint repeated back tends to put the complainor back on their heels. They were expecting an argument, or defense from you, or even a counter-attack - and all you did was say "I hear you say..." or even "You're right.", depending on the topic at hand.

It has been said that God gave us two ears and one mouth for a reason. If your wife wants to talk, even if its just to tell you all the reasons your marriage won't work, or how you failed in all your duties, or whatever, let her.

You know your truth. At the least, you will be establishing a pattern of being safe to talk with, which may draw your wife to make more truthful statements. At worst, you'll hear nothing you haven't heard before.

Repeat what you hear (not what you interperted you hear). Give her your full attention. Keep a relaxed body posture. On those rare occasions you talk, keep your voice level and calm. Do not refute. Do not attack. Do not defend. Do not educate.

Simply [color:"red"]LISTEN, LISTEN, LISTEN, LISTEN[/color].

well, we had a talk today. seemed to go better than I thought it might. I ditched my pre-written stuff, to try to encourage her to talk more... and she actually did.

She talked to some degree about trust, and her lack of it from me. However, she also talked about her lack of trust for me in some areas as well.

She amazed me by saying early on, that she understood about me keeping my guard up in some areas.

Then she talked about more specific areas, like she wanted "respect for her privacy'. To not be 'interrogated all the time'.


I think i did FAIRLY good, on the "listen, listen" front. I really wanted to ask for more details, on a whole buncha things she brought up. Although I did respond to one or two things, a little bit in my "defense'.

i reiterated that I wanted to change how things were perceived from me to her. Asked for her help, in letting me know what behaviours/wording from me, were seen as negative.
she said she'd have to think about it.

few other things came up, and then our prearranged time was up.

so... if I get another chance to talk.... do I try to revisit this stuff in more depth? or.... bah. feeling lost. why oh why does she have to have a distaste for counsellors.... i suck at putting together marriage-related talks, and keeping them rolling, on my own <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

then do something else!

Look, techie. You persist in not getting this. You don't get her 2 open up by pressing the issues. You get her 2 open up by being someone she can learn 2 trust, with TIME, HER time.

There is always a risk though. She may never get 2 a point of being comfortable with you. Or, you may get tired of trying 2 reconcile, and decide you don't want that.

All permutations of those options and others have come and gone on these boards for years.

-ol' 2long
P.S. I'll go away if you will, 2! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Techie, the next time you get together with her why don't you try not having any of these conversations. Why don't you try doing some kind of fun activity. Bowling or something that you can both have fun doing...try to bring some good feelings into these times.

You know people forget what you said most of the time, but they never forget how you make them feel. That is why good listeners are perceived as such good conversationalists. They make the other person feel valued (and therefore good about themselves) by being interested enough in what they are saying to just listen.

And then on the times when you are not with her, stop obsessing about her and these convo's you are trying to have. Instead try to focus on becomming an atractive person...ie who has passions, friends, a great attitude.

There was a poster on here who got his wife back just by listening to her, smiling, nodding his head, etc in all of their convo's...he just listened and became very attractive to her.

If she stops talking then get her to begin again by asking a question that makes her feel good about herself IE "wow, that really smells good, is that what you used to wear?"

Always in conversations where you are trying to change a persons feeling about you, you must make them feel good about themselves. And it has to be sincere, as in listening because you really do give a damn about what they are saying and not because you are trying to manipulate them, because people can sense that a mile away and that will not make them feel good.

Another example about how to make a person feel good about you (because you have made them feel good about themselves) is in laughter.

I don't like to talk that much IRL (as hard as that is to believe, I know LOL) but I love to laugh and so after being in the company of someone who is very funny, or who has a really great outlook on life I feel really good...and that translates into my feelings about that person, I will likely like them very much.

Make sense?

great advice weaver. thanks for the reminder

We have a once-a-week dinner (wednesday nights, when she comes to pick up our children), which I keep as our "no-stress night'. I also give her a backrub if she wants it. she has usually wanted one most times, lately.

I'd REALLY like to take her out and have fun doing something together. But so far, every time I've asked, she refuses, with assorted things like,
"thats too much pressure'
'i'm not ready for that'
'i'm only willing to do things for the kids'

i never was a brave "ask girls out' kinda guy. it's been really tough to keep asking through all that rejection.
(and at the same time, ask, without "putting pressure' on her :-/ sigh.)

I'd still really like to, though.

we both need excercise. I asked her if she'd like to go for a walk or something this weekend. she said she'll let me know how she feels.

long time ago now, we used to go jogging together. and later on, long walks around the park.
i miss that.