How about you start jogging and mention in passing every now and then that you are just leaving to go for a jog, and she is welcome to join you anytime she likes. Leave it at that.

Find fun activities to do with the kids (bowling, theme parks, water parks...whatever you guys like to do) even camping or overnighters. Begin knowing that she will likely not want to join, but in time she might... especially as she sees you all having a good time without her.

The stress free nights once a week are a perfect opportunity for her to start seeing the new and improved you. It has to be real though. The changes in you have to be real so you really do have to start making the changes.

Well, I was lucky today in that our "usual wednesday dinner" happened to fall on valentine's day, so I ended up getting to have valentine's day dinner with my wife. I'm very glad it worked out that way. Would have been a very sucky alone-day otherwise.

I had actually gone semi-overboard, and ordered a floral delivery to her work, along with a very mushy message on it. Supposed "guaranteed delivery". Ordered a WEEK ago. But apparently, I need to get my money back on the "guarantee". grrr.

If I wasnt waiting on that to arrive for her.. I would have called her to wish her a good day. ARRRG!
Yet even without that... she shows up quite nicely dressed... and gives me an understated card, with a printed message on it;

"{Techie},
Hope you have a valentine's day of everyday joys, and unexpected pleasures,

[Techie's wife].

-----

Good for a movie out together in March"



I was surprised to even get a card, in some ways. But the offer of a movie as well, is way better that I would have even hoped.
She said something like, "I didnt know what to get you, but I thought that would mean more to you than most things..."
I said, "yes, it does. thank you. i look forward to it"

Dinner itself went pleasantly... I ordered a "special" variant on our usual, and she seemed to appreciate it. She was planning to take our children right after dinner to visit their grandmother, since she isnt feeling well. But I offered her a backrub, and she decided to stay longer for it.
She ended up staying for about twice as long as she said she was going to stay. Guess she enjoyed it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

For those who havent been following along (or who dont remember <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ) the movie is *REALLY* unexpected. She's been dead set against doing ANYTHING with just the two of us.
The "in march" thing is a little weird, yet not totally unfathomable. I'd kinda presume we'd do something on a weekend. However, this weekend, she has a work related trip she has to go on. Next weekend would be "her" weekend and maybe she had plans for it. and that's all the weekends in feb. (still a little weird, though)

I'm pleasantly surprised... and also confused... She's actually making a positive gesture towards me? now what do i do? Heh, kidding.

Hi Techie...that's beautiful...I'm SO happy that you enjoyed yourself...what your W wrote is exactly what I wanted for my day and I got that...

I would definitily take it as it is...no more...no less...face value...

((((Techie))))

I'm so happy for you...good job...keep up the great work...

thank you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I did enjoy it! It made me very happy to be able to do positive things for my wife, and have her receive them well. And I enjoyed her company a lot. I wish we got to spend more positive time together. Hopefully, the movie invitation is a sign that we may do so in the future.

If I didn't have these stupid divorce proceedings hanging over my head everyday like the sword of damocles, I could almost enjoy the slow "getting reacquainted with you" process with my wife. It's 10x slower than I would like, but there's something positive to be said, about the slow move to cautiously lift the corner of the rug, that we've been sweeping things under for the last 5-10 years

Hmm.. make that "almost enjoy", apart from the legal stuff, AND missing my sons horribly, too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

LOL...Your tenderness shines through...I look forward to you going to the movies! LOL

I can't wait to hear more...Have a great night!
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

patience is a very difficult thing

Aaaannnd... partly due to my lack of patience, perhaps.. rollercoaster plummets downward again.

Wife is off on a "business trip". She left friday, before the normal "hand-off" time to me for our children.
Claims it is in one place, but certain signs point to her having taken a trip elsewhere.
And she refuses to give the name of the hotel where she is staying.

I confronted her on the phone, mentioned various things about how past lies have hurt me more than what she was lying about. Then asked her again, to tell me honestly where she is right now.

She declined to say. Said she "doesnt owe me anything", and is "reestablishing boundaries for herself", and I'm not entitled to know her whereabouts all the time.

Sad thing is, before I started bugging her, she said she wasnt sure she was staying the whole time, and was thinking about coming back sunday night.
Well, now she's staying the extra night.

I dont have proof she's off visiting OM#3. But it sure smells like it.
if she isnt actually seeing him (for the "first" time?) this valentine's day weekend.. she's sure being cruel about keeping the appearance of it that way.


Ugh.

techie -


Why do you keep playing the game by her rules? Why do you keep handing the power over to her?

You've been telling her the same things over and over for months now, and it hasn't changed anything, has it?

She either tells you where she's staying, or not. You can't make her do that. All you can do is ask. Politely. And leave it at that.

If she doesn't want to tell you where she is, don't badger her about it. Stop bringing up the past.

If you can't talk to her without getting upset, don't talk to her. All you do is set yourself up to get into arguments or heated/uncomfortable discussions where your taker starts coming into play.

You don't need to condone what she's doing. She's an adult and can make her own choices. She knows what you want and expect - she's not going to comply.

So stop playing the game by her rules. If she wants to live her own life, let her. Don't pry. Show zero interest in what she's doing. Focus on you and the kids.

You might be surprised at just how fast your wife will start to come out of the fog if you do that for a few weeks or months.



Her choice, not yours. Stop trying to take responsibility for the (poor) choices your wife makes. You can only control yourself. Focus on that, and let your wife do what she will. She's going to anyway, so why volunteer to be a continuing part of the drama?

your advice to quit stressing over what she does and where she goes, is good advice.
difficult advice to follow... but good advice <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

techie -


Oh...I know that it is very difficult to follow. Trust me...I'm have just as much difficulty following my own advice.

It really boils down to enmeshment. It can be very hard to unentangle yourself from someone that you truly love and thought you'd spend the rest of your life with.

But it's the only way to, at the very least, ensure a healthy you.

It's like I was taught in the Navy...if you're trying to rescue a drowning person, and they keep fighting you (in a panic), and you can't get them to calm down, let them go. There's no sense in both of you going under.

The same thing applies in marriage. If the WS is intent on driving the marriage under, and they don't respond to attempts at help (Plan A, so to speak), let them go. Don't let them drag you down with them.

Had our wednesday pick-up-night dinner last night.
The dinner went fairly well, I think.
The post-dinner massage was a little strained, though. She wasn't as comfortable as before.
Might have something to do with a new necklace she was wearing. A thin chain, with a birthstone pendant on it. I don't remember seeing it before, and she was never big on wearing chains before. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> dunno.

Given our hassles over last weekend, I wasnt sure she would even want one from me. But I offered, and she accepted.

I'm not sure whether she accepted the massage more for her, or for me, this time.

I think she enjoyed parts of it, at least.
It was nice to still get to do something for her, that I HOPE was still a positive thing for her.

It's kinda weird, that one of the saddest things in my life, is not being allowed to do more for the person I love.

blog entry: it hurts more, when you think you're about to go up, and you end up heading downwards instead.

ugh.

ended up having a conversation about marriage with her today. about how we tried "doing our own thing" as far as marriage strategies, and that's why we failed at it. plus raised the idea that no-one is 100% trustworthy.

sounded like she was actually thinking about what I had mentioned.
I had more to say, but she then said she'd "mull over" what I had said, and call me back after the kids were asleep.
i went along with it.

When the time comes, i find her online, with OM who is unexpectedly on. (he isnt usually on, sunday nights. usually afternoons, but off for the night)
i asked if we were going to talk more tonight.
she said she "felt sick since talking with me', plus boys were in bed but still technically awake. she'll "see later".

there was no "later". she played online with him all night.

HI techie, I have a little something for you on my thread and I was wondering if you would be so kind and give us an update.

Thank you!

well.... kinda overdue for my own update here.

I came fairly close to "plan F-U" today.


For the last few weeks or so, Wife has been occasionally going along with my requests to have "short" talk time on the phone, about "us", and issues she has between us. short 15-25 min bursts, while one or both of us are driving to/fromwork.

She seemed to be listening, and to some extent, participating. She was the one who actually brought up some issues she had with me. I've tried to, first and foremost, listen, and show that I am listening to her.

She also did something new, and stayed longer a few times when coming over for kid pickup, to watch some DVD movies.
(star wars I, II, and III)
Those are long movies... so it was considerably longer than normal <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> For me at least, it was some pleasant times "together", that we have lacked. It's been either only "talk" or "dinner", for months now. No other RL activities together.

Problem is... all these recent phone conversations and things, were with the mostly unspoken knowlege that we would have to decide where our children would attend kindergarden this september. There's a very real possibility she was just stringing me along to stay "on my good side" until now.

After discussing schools this evening, I finally gave my consent to where she wanted them to go. It did seem to be the overall best school. But it also just happens to be right next to her mothers' house (where she lives right now), and where she's going to be working next year also).

I consented, not because of the talks we'd be having, but because it did seem like the best place for them to go.

That being said... now that she's "gotten what she wanted", it will be interesting to see if her warmer demanor towards me changes now.. or whether she will show what she "really thinks of me" now.

That in itself will be interesting. and kinda sucky to wait for. i hate suspense like that.

but that's not what pissed me off.
There have been more and more occasions, where she tells me about stuff she's doing, both online and off, that isnt particularly.. shall we say... "credible". Some is just dubious, and not 'provable' either way. However, some seem to be outragous, "Do you REALLY think i'm stupid??" type of stuff.

Getting tired of the crap. getting tired of the lead-ons.
Want to see some more POSITIVE ACTIONS from her.

One of her pet phrases, when I tell her something important, is "I hear what you are saying".

yeah? well, how about DOING something about what I have said now???

ARRRGGGGGGGG..
rant over.

[/quote]

as I was buckling in our boys, one of them asked her to invite me over. she said something like, "we might try doing more things with daddy soon."

Wonder what her definition of "soon" is, these days.

wonder how long my patience will last.

Techie,
I'm going to say the same thing I've said to you pretty much every time.

Why do you expect anything to change? She's under absolutely no pressure to change anything at all. She's in her perfect position...she's got you whenever she feels the need. She's got complete freedom to ignore you or treat you like dirt if she wants to as well. She's not being held to ANY semblance of true marriage here. You've not set any boundaries, not taken any action to allow her to feel a need to change.

Until you change the parameters in this situation...nothing will change. She won't do anything to upset her perfect situation...you can count on it.

I still feel you'd be better served by taking a strong stance, drawing some hard boundaries, and have some tough plans for dealing with those boundaries. Right now, you're just accepting whatever she doles out to you. Take the power back in your relationship.

OK...I'm shutting up now. Give it some thought tho...at this point, you can't expect anything further to happen until something shakes up the status quo...you've got to see that by now.

Hi, Techie...

I hope that you have stopped and taken a few deep breathes...recentered...and refocused...

Where's your O&H statements? I hear you say that we might be doing more things soon, I hope that....

Are you asking for clarity? I think I understand that you need it spelled out for you...just a thougth but perhaps instead of talking on the drive, you can sit somewhere's and take notes...that way if you have any questions you can refer back to the notes and then ask for clarification...

I did that a few times, WH was in the room with me...I reread them when I was preparing to leave...for me it was confirmation that it was time to leave...

it may be a useful tool to you...

Just a thought, you've tried to help me out...just trying to return the favor...

Oh, also, I see that most of your vent was focused on the future, on what MAY happen...what if's...Where has that gotten you in the past?

JMO, but you're not doing yourself any good...LOL...I can't really talk I do the same thing...

patience and breathe! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[thanks guys... I hear ya...]


urrrr.. changed my mind about posting. gonna see what develops sunday... hopefully, doing some things together as a family then.

well... i feel like i owe you good folks an update, so here it is <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

sunday afternoon was really nice. we took the kids miniature golfing. they had fun. we did too.
we used to have dates going mini-golfing. a loooooong time ago. was a nice feeling to be doing it together again.

after golf, we came back to our house for dinner. We finished up earlier than usual.... so she ended up taking a nap in "our" bed, until the normal time she loads em up in the car.

she put in a lot of effort to be nice to me. The biggest one, was to say she'd like to do another trip "like our san diego one". That is to say, a multi-day trip with the kids.
but she said probably not until summer, since she doesnt have vacation built up.

She said she would be interested in doing a regular (weekly) family thing like this again, too.

all realy nice sounding things, and I hope they actually come to pass.

I miss my children though!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
half of me tells me to go along with her. the other half tells me i'm going to get hurt again, and i should just focus on my children.

I just saw your post on another thread in response to Mark's post saying an A is similar to losing a loved one.

You said: "I dont think that quite cuts it. It's more like,
"a loved one was murdered, by a person who killed them specifically to cause pain to YOU".

If you just "lost a loved one" to, I dunno, a random heart attack or something... it's not quite the same pain.:

Did you get the grieving process involved? What stage are you in right now? Being aware you grieve is important...learning to grieve well is essential.

I lost my first mother at age eight. You can't tell me it's not the same thing...our spouses are like our caretakers to us...that they die through no fault of their own doesn't halve the grief...or double it. They are still gone...we feel abandoned, defective, at fault. We're human. We are all part of one. Loss truly is loss.

Your post prompted me to check in on you and post this here...because this A wasn't about you...and that's really hard to take...you're partners...it greatly affected you, your marriage and your family--your whole life, really. Still wasn't about you...and if you choose to believe it was a murder to intentionally hurt you...that makes it about you.

I say this to aid you in your struggle...that struggle is your own. Affairs really are from entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. Those same ingredients will sabotage recovery, all relationships, every time.

You're making great choices, IMO...the golfing as something you guys used to do...RC was crucial to my marriage to even get to recovery...A's made us enemies...RC reminded us we were partners again.

After getting here to your thread, I saw Rin's post to you, and I didn't see a response.

I look forward to checking back and reading one.

And your fear, that half that tells you you're going to get hurt again...has some solid info in it...one, that you're not experiencing intense hurt right now; two, that you do choose to live in the future a lot; and three, you view your own choices as going along with her...her in control, when you really are...in control of you.

FWIW, I don't see choosing to do all you can to save your marriage ever as a wrong choice...to not discover all about yourself in the process and then share what you find, well, that's a harmful one.

In your corner,

LA

MMmmm.. well, i guess I overstated. I dont think it was solely to hurt me, if that is the impression taken.

but I do see what my wife has done, as "about me". I believe it is because of her anger and resentment "about me", that she has chosen to pursue relationships with other people, rather than choose to work on our marriage.
It was in part due to my actions, that this came about.
(and also in part, due to her choices on how to respond to my actions)

"intent to hurt" is a tough thing to gauge.

But when someone says by their actions(and words!), "yeah, I promised to love you and only you until we die, but.. you know what? You just arent worth it any more.. I'm going to choose someone else as more important to me than you now. I would rather break the most important vow someone can make in their lifetime, than be with you any more"...

That is hurtful. About the most hurtful thing someone can inflict on another.
It is a choice. And it is a choice made in the knowledge that the choice will hurt me.


I lost my uncle to cancer, shortly after we were married. He was like my grandfather and father, since my father died when I was 6 months old, and I never had grandparents.
I grieved over him. soul-deep grief. yet through that pain, I knew that it was something that "just happened".

This hurt more. Because my wife chose to walk away from me. It didnt "just happen".



[/quote]


A common phrase around here, is, "the affair isnt the BS's fault".
I know that noone is ever "forced" to have an affair. But I also know what I did wrong prior to the EAs. It resulted in a lot of hurt to my wife. She hasnt be able to forgive me for it, and she doesnt believe I can act differently, so far. Which is why she has up until now, given up on our marriage.

It is "about me". it's not about "the OM du jour". It's about my wife looking for happiness elsewhere, because she had given up hope on finding happiness with me.
I'm now trying to show her, that she doesn't have to look elsewhere any more.