and?

I want to be the best person, husband, father I can be and to find out why I waited til we find ourselves in the crisis to realize my mistakes.
I always felt I knew what my issues were but justified them to myself and others.

I know my W has had issues for years but in some ways that is what brought us together and its now the very things that are driving us apart.

I am at the point where I do not care at all about OM although feel that is what keeps W from willing to work on M.

How do you coexist when you cannot even communicate - I want to try to meet any EN's right now but cant other than taking care of the things I have ( finances, being w/ kids after school - But once we started talking S W seemed to eat it up.

I cannot even be sure she saw IC, she is protecting herself from things we discussed - She had been willing to let kids stay home by themselves for school and summer vacations and I didnt like that.

Last week she saw lawyer or so she says and I did see one only to protect myself but I wasnt asking for much and told lawyer I was still hopeful of working on M for many reasons.

I am willing to do anything to show and stay true to lasting changes, IC, AA, psychiatrist, program for men who have used verbal/emotional abuse, regular church attendance.

Willing to support W in whatever she needs for her healing but to be involved even on a small level to start.

I know we got here over a long period of time and only time will heal but wished that she would take into account all the factors of our life instead of our individual ego/self needs.

Now is time to begin and sustain these things. These are ACTIONS that your W will see. Expect NOTHING in return. Do it for you. Even if there is NO communication between you and your W. No Love Busters...no stirring the pot. The only thing other than the agenda you have planned above is to protect DD8 from having to be anywhere near the OM.

Are you up to the task???

SD

I am and will its scary right now, I have to find out if W included me on health insurance - I found out she didnt take out spouse life insurance like we both usually do at open enrollment for benefits.

W's health insurance was cheaper and better - I carry dental and vision - Along w/ life insurance for myself, W and kids and if I dont have health insurance I can not afford - IC and psychiatrist.

Its all so scary and feel alone, No one I am close w/ understands why I want to save things - Even though I own up to my stuff they all point fingers at W and her behaviors over the years - And especially since I exposed now there is less respect for her.

You seem to be always talking about what you cannot do rather than what you can do.

Wife wants to "separate", meaning:

Her plan 1--get you to move out of the house and keep paying for it so she can live her fog life with your children.

Her plan 2--If you won't move out then she would have to move out and find a way to make ends meet without the house but with your kids with her.

Would her parents let her and the kids live with them?

Don't move out of the house. Don't even talk about moving out of the house. In fact, I wish you would stop living in one little corner of it and start moving around in and using all parts of the house. How can you lead a normal life with your children when you are shut up in one little corner of the house? You need to spent your free time with them and not spend your free time crying on this web site. (sorry for the strong words)

Stop talking to her about D or S. That talk only gives her hope that you will go along with it.

Make some fun plans that involve your kids. Don't let her take them to her parents house for long term like this again. Set up some activities with them and buy the tickets or whatever so that you can prevent her from taking them away for weekends.

Spend your free time with your kids--that should be a key part of your plan A.

Why do you not attend your family's church?? Don't be scared away from the church that you and your wife attend together. Everyone makes mistakes--go into that church without any feelings of guilt. You belong at the church that your children attend.

I don't want to hear any excuses why you cannot do these things.

A psychiatrist normally just prescribes medications. They are usually not trained nor skilled in relationship building.

Get into your house. Let her know by your actions that you are in that house to stay and that you love your family and children and are not going to let them go away from you.

SPEND YOUR FREE TIME WITH YOUR CHILDREN AND OFF OF THE COMPUTER.

Lake

I know I talk about what I can't do versus what I can and or should do and thats one of my issues I am addressing with IC, along w/ my obsessing instead of acting.

Just had my second session and she is helping me on many levels, Ive also reopened dialogue w/ Pastor.

Spoke w/ W last night for a short time about several things although I will not initiate any paperwork on my part and not sure she will - W says she wants to S b/c it would give her a sense of control?

I mean one thing W said last night was lets get an MSA and we can still live in the same house for financial reasons and we could live in different parts of the house - I guess this is the "fog" right? Just try to meet any needs I can w/ no LB's while rebuilding me

But right now she in a way has all the control and by that I mean she could do something if I wont, I am not leaving unless forced to and will not do anything to help that along and will only try to be positive about al things.

Like Jim said - I only talk marriage, If you want to talk S or D talk to my lawyer.

The worst part of everything is I was doing good til I let this EA and her refusal to admit or work on things get the best of me instead of focusing on my children and myself.

I may spend alot of time on pc but that is my down time, when kids are playing or at school so I come here to vent and maybe rely too much on this site at times, Like today the kids wanted to play with friends so here I am.

My C said W's IC was maybe off base w/ her assessment that we need to S after 1 session although can understand W's unwillingness to work on anything right now, A nd even as bad as things are w/ W's and my issues that the ones who will truly suffer are the children - My C says in her opinion we could and should see MC and continue in our IC's.

I guess I wrote alot again just trying to keep my self from obsessing - Maybe like using a journal

I was home w/ the kids today - The 3 of us had off kids played w/ friends alot of the day. W was late again and I ordered pizza for me and kids.

When I got in W was home, I asked if she wanted pizza but she was cleaning the shower and said she would soon.

I asked how her day was - She mentioned ice storm we had, power was out @ work, the fact they were busy b/c they let 2 people go on Fri.

Went and got pizza for myself and got kids settled and W came in the kitchen and said "guess what kids were getting the piano tomorrow" - First I have heard since b/f meltdown on my part - Shes paying someone 200.00 to move it.

Doesnt sound like she is planning on going anywhere?
Only spoke w/ Pastor by email tried calling him but he didnt get back to me - Said I really would like to stay @ church and my desire to remain a family in spite of the latest things.

Another person called from church today as I have missed the program I am in the last 2 Fri. nights - Hadnt explained much of my sitch but said W and I were having problems - But received great support and still have hope.

Found out also that church also has a psychologist MC and we were only using Pastor - Hopeful someone will direct us to at least speak w/ him - MIL did mention this a while ago b/f my meltdown - Feel if I can stay the course for a little while w/ no LB's and work on myself that people will urge us to at least speak w/ him.

After all that then she is back to silent self except to tell D11 it was time to take a shower.

Just a thought but was wondering if she mentions S or D again I will say as jim said I only talk M not D but if you do then I want 50/50 custody no CS or do I keep my mouth shut?

Like I said I wont bring it up but if she does that will probably be my response.

S10 was asking me tonight how long I was sleeping downstairs and he would let me use his alarm clock - I really hate hearing these things and wished I really stuck to Plan A and really worked on myself - Could possibly have been furhter along - At least not sleeping separately.

Also was reading some crazy stuff on womensinfidelity.com sounds pretty scary and I thought I was having a hard time w/ things from my side but some of the BS's on that site are whacked out - One guy talking about killing WW and OM.

The ones who were asking for help in saving their M were directed to MB. As I said though some of the stuff this author wrote seems real scary as to salvaging R/M's w/ some WW's

See, it isn't over. They vacillate back and forth as long as there is contact with the OM. If you can get NC and keep making positive changes in yourself there is hope. Okay? Just keep working on yourself. You'll get through this.

Do not talk about divorce or separation at all. You do not do that. You are married and plan to stay married.

You only talk about marriage and how to make things work in the marriage.

If you can, get back into your entire house. It is your house and you should live in all of it.
Lake

I wont and try not to, I am trying to move through the house as much as possible except for the bedroom right now.

At work and have a few minutes and some things are eating at me today, Just remembered W said she had an appt w/ IC today supposedly @ 1:00pm but piano is supposed to be delivered between 11:00am and 1:00pm - wondering if she even met w/ someone or just feeding me another line.
Besides she never even mentioned a name, The first one she supposedly set something up with, She said she cancelled b/c she couldn't get in within a reasonable amount of time.

Slept like garbage last night - woke up @ 1:30am after dreaming we were in recovery only to realize we are still a long way from that. It hurts when you realize it's still as bad as it has been.

Been thinking of exposure @ work but really have no proof that isn't new only old stuff which probably wouldn't do much good now especially if I pushed it underground, As I said in earlier posts - The general manager of the company is also married and having an affair by what W has told me.

Also all people she has spoken to me that she has been associated with have all been D'ed at least once and if she has been talking about me and my issues what good would that do - I have been checking on things as much as possible and haven't come up w/ anything that would prove they are still active.

Last night when I went to get pizza - Saw W coming home from normal route she would take from work, OM's vehicle was in his driveway - Anytime I have checked he has been home and she is generally where she should be.

Dont have access to cell phone records anymore and tried to get password after meltdown but Sprint notified her on her cell. She doesn't use home pc, no purse around, car locked but last time I checked nothing in it. Even when I checked last pay stub I found all time was basically acounted for.

How the heck can NC be established w/o proper exposure or to people who really care, It seems like groundhog day.

Sorry tried to keep busy but my thoughts run all the time can't wait til Thurs. appt w/ psychiatrist although I guess AD's take a while to build up right?

Plus still not eating as good as I should and definitely not sleeping as good as I should.

Sorry I need more advice, I spent almost an hour on the phone w/ Pastor concerning ny meltdown and susequent abscenses from church.

I confided to him again of my suspicions concerning OM but he says that I need to change me first to lure her back.

That I cannot worry about OM right now need to focus on me and my kids and to be in church which are all valid.

Says nothing of W's continued denial of OM even though I point out things to him where she was less than honest and the fact that she has been using her faith only when it suited her.

Even asked if I could stay somewhere else for a month to show W what would be missing not as punishment.

I also mentioned of seeing IC, psychiatrist and enrolling in program for verbal/emotional abuse - He said I would be burning myself out and that the only thing I need is to be in church when doors open.

Also mentioned AA but he says b/c they dont talk about Jesus only God that it isnt a program I should use - Very strict Bible Baptist.

Also mentioned W was supposedly seeing a IC for herself and at first it was Agape - Christian based therapy but found out now it wasnt Agape.

He says what everyone here says about making real lasting changes in me (Plan A) but to let everything else go.

W had gone to him early on to get ok to D but he wouldnt give her the ok - Then she turns back on any help and now after my incident she went back to him to gain support back for herself. Mentioned to him that W asks for S or D but does nothing about it wants me to initiate but I wont she will have to do that.

Gotta run and take S10 to Cub Scouts

Another question, I had a chance to speak w/ W last night and she said after meltdown she is afraid of things that I know I wont do but I can see her side.

I did validate her fears and said where I was wrong and that I could see how she feels the way she does, I know this may go against some of the MB principles and thats why I am asking for input.

Not a legal S but I can rent a place on a month to month basis so I can work on me and feel like maybe it would be a cross section of Plan A and Plan B.

W was seeing IC today and I mentioned that my IC said that even though we are both in IC's we could try MC as well.

I also mentioned all things I want to do, and that I dont want to break up this family or us, My IC asked if I would go to a seminar tomorrow night for positive communication and suggested that I ask W which I did but did not press here for an answer.

Also mentioned that I know there is a lot of hard work on both sides but that I feel it is worth it, Even reading some stuff by Dr. Harley he says sometimes M's like ours we need to S to work on things.

My fear is the OM but on some level I seem to be @ peace with things right now and feel that I would be seeing the kids almost daily and she would have them most nights along with the fact that he supposedly has 3 of his own they would not have much time to spend if it is still active and after addressing my things I feel I would be in a better position to discuss w/ her things we would need to do.

The thing about her working w/ him, I feel if W has stayed this long w/o leaving or forcing me to leave or initiating paperwork this could be an olive branch on my part to show her ho much things mean to me and for all of us.

I also mentioned that I would be open to seeing her IC for her to be able to ask me questions and see for herself that I am willing to truly work at this although I would be mentioning my suspicions but owning my actions that have caused things to erode, W did say up until meltdown she was learning to trust me but now thats gone for now.

Any thoughts? I know there could be "fog" still but I hace actually felt better today than I have in awhile and wonder if I am falling for a line or feeling that I could be helping our situation.

I would put protection for myself by speaking w/ Pastor and others concerning S w/ hopes of recovery that this was mutually agreed upon and the right to things should it move further away from each other instead of apart.

This is just a question at this point - I have said nothing to W to hold me to this, It's just that I did not Plan A from the start and stick to it.

dg63,

Found this thread - responding to your questions from the other thread.

I have been in a relationship where there was stalking, emotional abuse and control, and physical abuse. It was draining, on both sides. It ended only because I finally realized that it was not what I wanted, unhealthy, and had absolutely nothing in it for me.

You said that you saw some behaviors in yourself that Life2short's STBXH exhibits. Would you mind listing those behaviors for me? That way, I can focus on those behaviors more succinctly. Also, I'd like to answer the questions you had, so please post!

Schoolbus

Basically I was critical, demeaning, I would get mad give the silent treatment and sulk for days and then apolgize.
W alawys accepted and we went on, Threatened D several times and threw my ring - W said everytime I did that she would go through times of wondering how she would manage.

I never wanted a D - Just felt like we were drifting apart and acted out of anger over stupid things and started fights instead of talking about things.

2 incidents where I got physical - 6yrs ago slapped her, 5 1/2 yrs grabbed her - W said if I ever did it again she was gone and I believed her, But that didnt stop my attitude.

I feel stupid talkng about things but want to know a womans perspective, Could her love be gone b/c of these things or could it be a combination of these things and A or is it all "fog" speak?

I really feel there was some attachment but as I said W has a tendency to distort facts, lie and tell half truths which although the way I acted at times was in no way proper I felt on some level that she was guilty of things as well.

I always owned up to my mistakes but never truly made changes, W would own up to some things but never addess her issues which led me to being critical.

A lot of LB's AO's, DJ's, independent behavior and drinking (2 dwi's) last one in Feb - W said she started hating coming home to find out what kind of mood I was in.

She went thru 3 jobs in 5 yrs not leaving by choice and I felt on some levels could have been avoided so a lack of empathy on my part.

I really do love her and feel that if we can get past and work on things it can be salvageable.

Recently been trying to get to the bottom of things concerning A and had a couple of meltdowns - AO, DJ's and threw her cell phone - W started hiding things more and blew up a few Fri nights ago and tried to pull her out of our bed which I know is stupid and the next day I called EAP.

Originally when she said she didnt think she wanted to be married, I called many C's and owned all my actions but W didnt really want to work on M said she wanted time and space - No R/M talks from me - I knew things about suspected EA but didnt share these things w/ people right away b/c I felt guilty about all I did.

Then she got mad when I confronted her, exposed to people and called the things I did commando tactics.

With the things I did over the years - I guess she could feel justified calling them that but I also felt something wasn;t right?

The reasons for my meltdowns were b/c she would tell our Pastor one thing and then not work on things, She would say fine we will go back to Oct. or you win the church wins my parents win we will stay married but you wont get my heart.

Said she needed to work on her b/f M but didnt seek any help. I felt the A was the biggest hurdle and my bank started to have so many withdrawls that I let myself lose my focus and control - As I said I feel stupid and have had so many people here try to help me and didnt do it all right but am so willing to make lasting changes.

Can it be too late? Or do I stand a chance - W says she will never let her self love again or be loved like she was.

On some levels I see "fog" but I can see somethings I could have made her feel that way - Although she has to own the A.

Forget what I said about moving out and being comfortable about A and OM right now - No LB's or anything else that would cause me to look bad.

Just found a strange AC charger in the house and doesnt fit anything I am aware of so I am wondering if she now has a 2nd cell phone?

Don't move out. Your WW is in an ongoing affair. Moving out is the worst thing you could do. Your WW wants you to leave not because of how you have been acting (not that how you have been acting has helped anything), but because you are interfering with her A. I know you have trouble controlling your emotions, but you need to start upping the snooping ante. Take away that charger. See if you WW asks about it. She probably has a second cell phone. Snoop around and find it. Expose what you find out to your pastor, MIL, anyone in a position to end the A. Expose it to her HR and employer. Only after you have some more proof. You need to snoop. Continue meeting her ENs and avoiding LBs, but it is time to snoop. She is in an active affair. Are you on ADs? You need to control your emotions. I know now is a difficult time, but you can get through this. HIDE THE CHARGER!

dg,

I have read enough of this thread to see a pattern in your posts. While you do "own" some of your behaviors, with each "owning" I see a pattern of you immediately turning around and pointing at your wife's behavior regarding what SHE has done. Let's try the list I asked for again, and this time, DON'T PUT ANYTHING ABOUT YOUR WIFE IN THE LIST.

The list is about what YOU own. What behaviors you see in yourself that might fall in the categories of: stalking, emotional abuse, physical abuse, verbal abuse. Start there. Nothing about your wife, or why you did any of the behaviors. Just list the behaviors. We MIGHT talk about why, but for now, I want to see what you see in yourself. Then, I want to point out what I see.

SB

I wiil after after my appt w/ psychiatrist - I just had to say last night I found out W is seeing same IC as myself!

How ironic is that?

Just got back from psychiatrist and he put me on lexapro and gave me a prescription for Ambien to help me sleep.

Wife caught me going through her purse, Which is how I found out we were both seeing same C, W said that this C told her we should S, But when I told C what W's C said she told me that it could be good for us to see IC's and MC.

I dont know what to think now, Although I like this C is this a conflict or could this be good?


SB - What I own is my critical, demeaning behavior, Giving the silent treatment for days at a time. Devaluing her opinions, lack of empathy. I was selfish to a fault w/ thinking I was always right.

When we argued I would purposely say something I knew would hurt. Alot of times I guess made her feel useless and probably said that many times. Attacked her self esteem b/c of my lack of self esteem, I was depressed alot but really didnt seek out help - Thought that I just had to deal w/ it.

Plans we made were often about me and what I wanted to do.

Dirty looks when we were around others and I either didnt agree or felt she should keep opions to herself if I thought it was going to create strife.

Physical instances were 3X total once slapped w/ an open hand, grabbed her roughly once and recently pulling her out of bed - My frustration and my inability to react properly led me to do things I regret - When I do things I regret I get angry w/ myself but have redirected that to others.

With the job changes I felt overloaded and always rearranged my work schedule to be home for the kids and felt she didnt make the same sacrifices and let her know, Wanted to spend more time alone but on weekends I didnt spend the time w/ her instead opting for sports, drinking w/ the guys. Staying home when she went to visit her parents.

I felt that all the money we spent on house and remodeling that was inheritance from my grandparents was trashed - Always wanted a hous e that was spotless - Wanted it to be to perfect not that of 2 working people w/ 2 kids.

I hope that helps better I know what I have to change and what I have tried but havent succeeded completely.

Lately w/ the A I feel like a "stalker" but feel that if it wasnt for this "friendship" that there could be grounds for us to work on things.