Hummingbird...not sure what your definition of "right" love is, but love as an emotion of action is what you make it. You can nurture love or you can kill love, but I don't think love just "dies" if you are actively working on it positively. It does not have a life of it's own.<P>It is true when we marry, we promise to forsake all others...at the time that doesn't seem like we are giving anything up. As time goes on and your marriage isn't everything you expected you feel loss. A few options to consider is:<P>Leaving<BR>Exisisting or remaining stuck <BR>Change your expectations<BR>Change the situation<BR>Actively grieve for the losses.<P>Hummingbird, it is your choice whether or not you can live with leaving. From a secular viewpoint where your own happiness is the ultimate consideration, maybe you should.<P>If you choose your marriage, however, I would suggest a combo of options #3-#5.<P>Maybe you did not make the best possible choice for yourself when you married. It does not necessarily follow leaving the marriage and starting over is the best possible solution. You may find you have exchanged one set of gains for another set of losses.<P>Your H probibly is selfish, he is certainly insensitive. He may or not mean to be either. But if you are tempted to think about the OM...he might be better suited to you in some ways...but an affair is the ultimate selfish act one can do to a spouse. If you see answers on a survey his wife would fill out, do you think she would say he was romantic or thoughtful or giving? Doubtful, because he was directing his emotional energies on you. So in one way you were his hobby...if your H's guns had emotions, they probibly would think your H is very caring. OK...this is out there, but do you see the point?<P>Holly, don't mean to hurt you...but the one gift you could give your OM is just to leave him alone. It really is not fair of you to want to be a treasured little nugget in his memory...and you can't make yourself be, so any more contact may continue to backfire. I am actually glad the OW got more and more shrill and desperate...I think my H did end up thinking she was pycho. I'm not going to correct him, of course, but I she was just really hurt like you. <P>One last thought. If you only give with your eye on what you will get, then you are not truly giving. I think happiness, as in inner peace, results in that you lived your life consistant with your values, it is not a prize to pursue, but the pursuit of a good life will result in the prize.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Yes, we all have to deal with the spouses we have. But I don't think that means accepting the relationship the way it is if you're very unhappy. This is not Marraige-Settlers, it is Marraige-Builders, hence we are trying to build up our marriages into something better. This is why I said that the only solution for Humm is not to just sit back and say "well, that's the way he is and I have to accept it". People who love each other should grow together, why can't she want that?<P>Hum's husband is giving more of his time, devotion, and energy to something other than his wife. Its as if he were having a love 'affair' with his hobby. We wouldn't tell a betrayed spouse to just accept that he is going to spend more time with OP than her, so why would we tell any spouse to just accept that he is going to spend more time hunting than with her? It's similar. His devotion is not to her, and she shouldn't have to accept that.<P>Humm/Lu:<P>I definitely was not saying to get out of the marriage. I was thinking more along the lines of telling him more directly what you have been trying to say. One thing I learned from my parents is that you will get from other people what you expect. If you expect people to walk on you (or accept when people are walking on you) then people will do that. If you expect your kids to fail, they will fail. That kind of thing. I think you need to be more direct in telling your husband what you expect out of this marriage. The conversation I was thinking of was not 'railing' at him, but a very calm and direct conversation such as this...<P>Tell him that when he is done with his dinner, or magazine, or whatever, that you'd like to speak with him and that you will need his full attention. Turn off the tv first, and look as though you expect him to give you a few minutes of his time. Tell him that its very important to you. Make sure that you are looking at one another during the conversation.<P>Hum "Do you want to be married to me?" <BR> H "Of course I want to be married to you or I wouldn't be here"<BR>Hum "I'm glad to hear that, because I also want to be married to you. I am interested in your happiness, and I hope that you are interested in mine. Right now, I am very unhappy with our marriage the way it stands, and we need to work out a solution together. I feel very disrespected when you ignore me when I'm talking and then say things such as "tell that crazy doctor of yours that you're starting problems" or "you need a kid, that'll give you something to do." It is unacceptable to talk to me like that. When you say those things, you are choosing to disrespect me. I value your opinions and I expect you to value mine. I also want to talk about the amount of time you spend hunting. I feel very alone in this marriage. I agree that I do need to get some friends or a hobby to spend time with while you're gone, but this is excessive. If you continue to spend this much time away, I can not force you to stop. But the consequences are that you will have a very unhappy, lonely and unsatisfied wife. This is your choice to make, but I am being upfront about the consequences that you will have to live with if you can't start giving value to my feelings. Do you want to work with me on this? I know that, given the chance, you will want to do what it takes to make me feel loved, as I will also do for you."<P>Maybe some people will find this completely absurd, but I for one would tell my spouse (in my own language), that being treated with disrespect is absolutely unacceptable to you. Let them know it! All of my friends who are treated this way by their husbands allow them to do it. If you give them an upper-hand instead of you being on even-ground, the story will always be the same. Put yourself, and your feelings, on even ground with your husbands and expect nothing less. You deserve respect. <P>That is what I would do. By the way, I wasn't trying to imply that the consequences are that if you're unhappy you will have an affair. But I would hope that just having an unhappy wife would be enough to want to change some habits. If he doesn't care if you're happy or not, well that's another story.<P><BR>Hi Dazed,<P>I read and re-read my posts about 5 times (until the board went down and I was forced off ) and I don't understand why you were mad at what I wrote, and why you say "we actually agree on this, no matter how hard you find that to believe". Have we disagreed before on something I don't remember? I don't have a hard time believing we agree at all. Everyone wants a happy marriage. I just wanted Humm to know that there were other opinions out there besides just ignore his rude behavior and do some fun things on your own. I wanted her marriage to be more than that. You accused me of 'railing' about what's fair, telling her to sulk, and 'brow-beating'. I don't know where all that came from. I don't brow-beat my husband, sulk, or demand anything. But I do tell him how his actions affect my feelings, and let him make the choice if he really means to hurt me or not. And the best part for me is that he is starting to do the same thing. I really appreciate that, because you can't please your spouse if you don't know what it is they want. But anyway, I didn't mean to come across in an adversarial way, and it seems that's how you took it. I was just giving a differing opinion. I know every marriage is different.<P> tamis<P><BR>

Beth: Thank you so much for that story. I've never even thought of trying to reach him in that way. It brought tears to my eyes. Yes, I will use the story and edit it, maybe it will open his eyes. Sometimes it takes something so small to really make people see things. <P>I've threatened divorce in arguments and now he threatens back. Last night he was the one to mention it, and he said at one point "I feel like I'm so close to calling an attorney tommorrow." <P>Sometimes I feel like I've given so much and put up with enough. In the book I bought, one of questions was: Can you give more than you have already, without expecting any pay back? I can't answer this question. I don't know. <P>I know no man is perfect, and I do fear leaving and re-marrying to only be unhappy again. I know what I've got but I don't know what's out there. I have been working for 12 years. And in this time, I've worked for a large corporation, dealt with many vendors, worked with lots of men and until the OM came to work for the company 3 yrs ago, no other man ever crossed my mind. Yes, I'd look at good looking guys. The men always had something I didn't like, physically, etc. Then OM came around almost it seemed at the same time everything at home was starting to escalate. I realize he was an escape from my problems, and now with him gone, here I am. <P>I believe I can live with myself leaving. If I decide to do so, I'll be O.K. I want inner peace and I'm struggling on how to achieve it. My heart feels sad and lonely, and I don't think I can find peace if my heart not happy. <P>FHL: I know you believe in divorce, but are you saying if I get divorced that won't be a good life for me? Because I've let my morales and values down? You mentioned the OM's wife, and yes FHL, I've heard him talk very abrubtly to her on the phone and even hang up on her, of course he told me she deserved it.<P>I guess my husband has to change and be willing to change some things, not just say he is. And I have to willing to also accept things, be realistic. The key for me is my love for him. I'm trying to search my soul for answers, like why I love him and if there's enough love left to continue to give and try. <P>Even if there's no compatability in recreational activities, can I assume there's still hope? If I'm willing to take on a hobby to keep myself busy and accept that he's not going to be the companion of my dreams, will my heart come around? Maybe if the times we had together were special to me in even a small way, the hunting activity and the time he put into it would be O.K. <P>I printed out this whole thread and I'm going to highlight some stuff. Thanks everyone for your time.

Hummingbird, I have no idea what your life would be like if you got divorced or if you stayed married.<P>And I do believe in divorce in cases of infidelity, physical abuse, severe emotional abuse or malicious abandonment, just for the record. These are my personal beliefs. I also believe everything should be done to hold a family together if possible. However, since you have no children, what I meant is that you have to evaluate your own beliefs. You say you do not want to live without regret, well, if you would live to regret divorce because you believe in your origional vow, then considering divorce would not be a good option for you. If you could divorce without regret, then it may be an option.<P>Regardless of what you choose, the rest of your life will be what you make it.<P>Threatening each other with divorce is wrong of both of you. It is another example of poor, dangerously poor, communication problems. Anything as serious as possible break-up of a marriage should not be used as a threat or in the heat of an arguement.<P>I hope your counseling session goes well for you tonight.<P><P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Tamis:<P>All I asked you to do was come up with some suggestions for Hum, rather than belaboring the obvious, which is that her H is being unreasonable. On that, we agree. But mere commiseration isn't helping her.<P>And now you have done so. Your suggestion is a good one, and the tone in which you write it is also productive. I am somewhat skeptical as to whether her H will respond in the way she hopes. I know that mine would NOT. His answer to any conflict is "I thought we were doing great. I guess you don't. I guess you want to split up." Then I go into a panic and nothing's accomplished.<P>Because I have a hard time discussing relationships without getting emotional, and because H thinks getting emotional is manipulative, I laid out exactly where I stand on the PSBFH issue in a 2-page letter, which I had posted here. (It's now gone; just in case he or someone he knows visits here.) To this day, I still don't know if he got it. See my posts from last weekend.<P>I agree with you that this SHOULD make him wake up. But so far, my letter hasn't made my H wake up. He is still in touch with PSBFH to some degree, probably still sneaking around, won't give her up.<P>There are no guarantees.<P>But maybe Hum's H will surprise us and be different. <P>Hum:<P>Yeah, you are more susceptible when things at home aren't good. The only time in my married life that I was even attracted to anyone else (also a co-worker, oy) was a time when H was suicidally depressed, and I had NOTHING from the marriage -- no companionship, no sex, no conversation, no affection. I was making all the money and propping him up. I changed jobs before it could progress beyond going out to lunch all the time in a group, touching knees under the table, and overpowering lust. Even nipping it in that early stage, I missed the guy terribly for about a month.<P>Fear of being alone is no reason to stay in a bad marriage. Right now we are seeing your marriage through YOUR withdrawal-tainted eyes. Believe me, I know all about looking at life through a funhouse mirror and wondering what's real and what isn't. <P>I'm not one who thinks you stay in a marriage come Hell or high water...especially when there are no kids involved. There's a lot about your situation that sounds pretty grim. But I don't think that making major decisions about your marriage while in this kind of withdrawal are wise.

Deleted duplicate post<p>[This message has been edited by Dazed and Confused (edited October 07, 1999).]

Hummingbird, I have no idea what your life would be like if you got divorced or if you stayed married. I am trying not to make a personal judgment or impose my own beliefs on you.<P>And I do believe in divorce in cases of infidelity, physical abuse, severe emotional abuse or malicious abandonment, just for the record. These are my personal beliefs. I also believe everything should be done to hold a family together if possible.<P>However, since you have no children, what I meant is that you have to evaluate your own beliefs. You say you do not want to live without regret, well, if you would live to regret divorce because of your beliefs about marriage, then considering divorce would not be a good option for you. It would not bring you the happiness you desire. If you could reconcile divorce with your belief system, then it may be an option.<P>Regardless of what you choose, the rest of your life will be what you make it.<P>Threatening each other with divorce is wrong of both of you. It is another example of poor, dangerously poor, communication problems. Anything as serious as possible break-up of a marriage should not be used as a threat or in the heat of an arguement.<P>I hope your counseling session goes well for you tonight. I know this is hard. <P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

While I think that Dazed's advice is good stuff, I really hate the way we all just sorta take this kinda idiotic insensitivity from men! What the hell?!? It's guys like hum's husband that gives us men a bad name! On my WORST of days I would not treat my wife so shabbily. His behavior goes so far beyond selfishness. There is absolutely no excuse. This is the kind of stuff that PodPerson rebelled against when she had her affair. And it's no wonder Hum had her own affair. Guys like that have always made me sick (okay I realize how hypocritical I am, seeing as I'm the betrayer and all... but I mean... aw heck.. I'll shut up now).<P>Sorry Hum. No advice for ya. Just feeling pissed for your situation... <P>--andy

, ,

Uh, Hum?<P>Can you be a little more specific please?

What's wrong Hum?<P>Is it the OM or is it your husband?

I just want to cry. I should of stayed home today. <P>I went home to an empty house last and then I tried to get on my computer and I kept getting "connection failure". Feeling frustrated and down, I called my parents, went to their house and me & my sisters went to Friday's for dinner. As I was talking to them I could feel the tears coming, my youngest sister says "you know if you leave him, he'll die without you, we know how he is, mom & dad know but we accepted him for you, as long he makes you happy" and my other sister kept asking "do you still love him, your talking like your not, how come you won't answer, do you love him or not", I started crying and said "I don't know", then my youngest sister, who is very carefree and outgoing, says "don't put up with his ****, you tell him to shape up or ship out, don't sell yourself short, you are so beautiful, have so much to offer somebody and you deserve better, we're here for you, all of us, you want to leave, come home, maybe we could even get an apartment together." I know their trying to help.<P>When I went home he was there, didn't talk to much and I knew he wouldn't say anything if I didn't bring it up.<P>I had two dreams last night, the first I was telling my sisters I was pregnant, crying, feeling so sad I was pregnant, then another dream that I was with the OM child, the little boy was looking at me and he said "please don't take my daddy away, let him stay with me", I said "no honey, no, daddy will stay with you". <P>God, I feel like **** today. When I was in the restaurant with my sisters, my wedding song came on "Everything I do, I do it for you, by Brian Adams". Of all timing, it has to come on then!<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Hummingbird (edited October 07, 1999).]

Wow...what a dream...I'm sorry.<P>Give it a couple days, then once your head is clear have a talk with your husband.<P>You have to get the OM out of your system before you make any decisions...it might only make you more unhappy.

Hum, I agree with Holly here. <P>Right now you've got all this conflicting stuff coming at you from all directions.<P>Beware of well-intentioned family members. For some strange reason, they'll always tell you to leave; they'll always do it because "we want you to be happy", and when they see you cry because you have marital problems, they assume that getting away from the spouse will solve the problem.<P>I had told my mother some very sketchy stuff about PSBFH, only to explain why I would not be visiting her for the foreseeable future. Her responses: 1) Tell him you don't want him seeing her (Duh -- if that would work, wouldn't I do it?); and 2) Throw the bum out.<P>Family is not the best source of advice.<P>Forget for a moment about OM. You are miserably unhappy in the marriage. You are running on empty. I know the feeling. <P>Go back to what Tamis wrote about how to approach him to talk about your unhappiness. I think that approach was good. Tell him you need his undivided attention. Sound like you mean it.<P>Do not be accusatory. Do not say, "You do this" and "You do that" and "You don't care." Don't assume you know his feelings. Before you start, write down how you feel:<P>"I feel lonely."<BR>"I feel that he cares more for hunting than for me."<BR>"I feel that I want the following things in a marriage: (a, b, c)."<P>Write yourself a letter first...or write him one. If you don't think you can have a conversation, write him a letter. The nice thing about letters is that there's no tears, and you can edit it as many times as you like.<P>Right now you're "dropping hints" that you're unhappy -- hints that baffle him. Yes, you're standing in the middle of a room screaming, but in a language he doesn't understand. If you lay your cards out on the table, he might have to listen.<P>If he doesn't, then you know what you're dealing with and can take it from there.<P>However, I do think that you have to get through the "OM was my soulmate" stuff before you can see clearly.

I feel like I need time to just veg out and I wish I could get away, even for a weekend and be alone.<P>Sometimes I wish I could just be alone until I'm over the OM. The withdrawal is torture. Holly, your so lucky you don't have to see him anymore and I'm happy you didn't call him. Maybe it's better it ended the way it did with you, I know on my end getting an email about "always be his in his emotional heart" sucked. I don't want or need to hear this, I think it hurts more. I don't know which is better. I know we need to stop thinking about what their feeling, how their doing and what's going on their lives because they're in our past and won't be/don't belong in our future. How to convince my heart is another story. I've been trying to tell myself everytime I start to think of him "You don't care, you don't care". Maybe if I say 100 times a day, it'll sink in.

Perhaps the reason family and friends tend to urge the "kick the bum out" idea is they are just not as attatched to your partner as you are.<P>Plus, they are just hearing your side of the story, which of course paints you in the best light.<P>So they see you are not happy, they love you, they think your partner is causing your unhappiness because they heard your story and they are partial to you anyway, they do have the same attatchment to your partner. The thought of erasing your partner is not too painful for them, because their life is not entwined with your partners. If your partner disappeared, their life would not change, so it is easy advise to give from their perspective. They do just want you to be happy, but they do not take the full range of your emotions or the effect of terminating your relationship will have on your whole life.<P>They simply want your pain to stop and to them this seems the obvious way. Change what ever is making you unhappy. Of course in many areas of life, change is good. In marriage its a bit more complex.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

I'm glad your happy I didn't call the OM...but I did! Yes, you think I'm crazy. I called him because I didn't want to leave things on such a bad note...I didn't want to have any regrets years down the road...I couldn't live with that. I thought about waiting to call and apoligize, but I felt if I waited too long it wouldn't mean anything to him. But, I'm actually feeling good today. I called him early this morning to leave a message on his voice mail...however, he got in early and picked up the phone.<P>I told him I was sorry for being so harsh in the letter and that I didn't want to end things with him thinking I hate him. I said I didn't like living with that on my conscious and I said those things because I was hurt. I asked him if he could forgive me. He said yes and was sorry for being mean to me, but didn't know what else to do because he thought that was what I needed to hear. I told him I just wanted to get over him and that I was starting to get better. I said I'm glad things are getting better for you...then we said take care and hung up. By the time I got to work I actually forgot I even called him...I wasn't dwelling on our conversation like I normally would.<P>I feel much better ending things this way and I honestly don't feel the NEED to call him anymore. I'm very sad that I lost such a good friend, but at this point there's nothing I can do. I will miss him, but it's getting easier.<P>Hum, you will get to this point too. There will come a day when you can think about the OM fondly (even if you can't have him) and wish him the best. It's still a little tough for me...I'm probably just having a good day and my outlook could totally change tomorrow.<P>It's tough convincing your heart to do things...I honestly think the only way to get over it is with time. I've often thought back to times when I was in total dispair, thinking there was no hope for the future, and now I can think back to these times with no pain. I had a boyfriend before I started college that died in a car accident...I was extremely depressed for almost two years. I didn't even know I was depressed...it was just a natural state. (plus, I covered up my pain with alcohol) But, eventually I got over the hurt...it just takes time.<BR>

FHL: I know my family loves me and only want the best for me. I know they are only hearing my side but they have never 100% approved of my husband and have seen his blowups, jealousy, etc. first hand. The children thing is another strike against him, they have always thought it was him, but now I confirmed it. They want to be grandparents. Of course, he's not Italian, major fault right there and doesn't make enough money for their daughter to stay home (which I wouldn't want to anyway), but I've always closed an eye to them when they talk this way. In the beginning when we started dating, they would say things to me about not liking him too much, well at 17 being very stubborn and in love I would hear nothing of it and now looking back I wonder if it pushed me closer to him, almost in a rebellous way.<P>I also know they want me to try because they know divorce will be painful but at the same time they don't want me to put up with his ****. Having them and my sisters tell me to come home if it gets to bad in a way is making it easier to give up.<P>Holly: No, I don't think your crazy. Then I'd be crazy too. Maybe this is what you needed to have closure. I really hope it helps and now you can move on. I have debated the closure letter but I know I can't. I've done enough. The counselor said to me that she's afraid it won't end there, in a few days or weeks I'll have the need for another letter, another talk, etc. I have to break all communication for good. It's different for you though, your doing much better than me and your so far away from him. <P>I am very depressed with everything right now and I can't even imagine being able to look back at my relationship with the OM and not cry. I can't even go there, I have to block it out. Of course seeing him everyday is a killer, I'll see him and remember us kissing and I try immediately to stop but it's too late my mind is there. <P>I hope tonight is better.

OK -everyone else has given great advice about your marriage and your communication. I'll just talk about hunting.<P>My h is a hunter,too. And yes, I knew he was a hunter when we were dating. And a fisherman. HOWEVER, when we were dating, being w/ me was IMPORTANT enough to give up a little of that "hobby" time - without my asking, because he had to "win" me, right? So, I never knew how MUCH he loved the sport. Gotta remember, courting is important, impressing your love is important. I think that even though sometimes we know our spouses have a hobby or love to do something, we don't know to what extent because they curb it to win our hearts. I was lucky, I lOVE to fish, so - no problem. Sometimes w/ me, sometimes w/out me.<P>Hunting was a little different. We worked all week, can't hunt on Sundays, SOOO what's wrong w/ Saturday. After all, I was his wife now - in other words, no more real courting necessary. It did cause some hurt feelings at first. Take 5 days out for working, evenings for chores, Saturday for hunting, Sunday for family time - when was "our" time (translate MY time)? My BIG problem was holidays - Thankgiving, Christmas, New Years. Ticked me off. I wasn't wrong to need it, I wasn't wrong to expect it, YET he wasn't wrong to want to participate in his hobby during the season either.<P>We talked about it. I tried to let him know why I felt neglected. Actually drew up a chart of time together during the season. He tried very hard to understand. However, understanding meant that he acknowledged that he had to give up some time, so he really didn't want to. And I had to understand that this was important wind-down time for him, too, so I would have to give a little.<P>Our solution worked for both of us. Sunday was out - it's reserved for family, including d. One SAT a month, was his to hunt all day - whatever. I made his breakfast, packed snacks and lunch, sometimes for his brothers, too. I listened to his stories, fed the whole crew when they came in, the wonderful adoring wife. He ate it up!<P>The other 3 Saturdays, mornings only. You know the drill - out before dawn. Fed him breakfast and kissed him out the door - still adoring - wished him luck. He was home by 2:00. The afternoon and evening were ours and he wasn't so exhausted that all he did was fall into bed. And for those days, we PLANNED something. Sometimes something we both loved, sometimes something he enjoyed more than I did, sometimes something I enjoyed more than he did, but something we each worked at enjoying because we were together. A lot of those days he started coming in even earlier to get a head start on the afternoon. Holidays - still a little sticky. Thanksgiving - morning's 'til 11:00 (I prepared for the families, I needed help). Christmas - out, forget it! New Years we played by ear, but usually it was until around 2:00.<P>We really didn't know how it would work, but we BOTH wound up really enjoying it. Even the all day Saturday. I could do my thing, he could do his thing and neither of us really resented it because we both got what we needed. (And that was before I heard of POJA!) And, know what, eventually, probably because he knew he could if he wanted without any grief, he didn't want to go as much. Took a Saturday off about once a month to do something with me. Sometimes it's as much the principle as the activity. Know what I mean? I'm not letting you take this from me. Once you're not taking, but encouraging, well, doesn't pull so hard.<P>Yes, everyone, there was a time when we worked great together. <P>Anyway, just a thought. But you have to be very respectful when you bring it up and see what kind of solutions HE can offer to the problem. Most guys LIKE to be the problem-solver. (Hence my recent separation) A lot of what we did were H's ideas, once I explained how I felt and gave him a chance to participate in the solution.<P>My penny's worth. And a lot of luck to you!<P>Lori

As if I wasn't long-winded enough - I forgot something. A few years ago, I planned and shopped for weeks (didn't spend much though) and one all-day hunting day, I took the spare room, pulled the dead animal out of the closet and hung it on the wall, papered and painted, put a new cover on the futon, added the computer (yep, I'm sitting here now), daughter's Barbie collection and homework desk, my paint table and stuff, his racing and hobby stuff, TV, VCR, etc. A real family hobby/sitting room. A hodge podge of all the things we all love and surprised him when he got home.<P>Thrilled??? Understatement of the year. Oh, my stars, I may as well have captured the moon and given it to him. It wasn't HIS room, but ours and looked pretty masculine but a lot like all of us. But the part he (and I) liked best was that it wasn't just his; we could all crash in here and do our things and still be together. And you know what - except to sleep, we hardly leave that room. The warmest, most comfortable (if not Martha Stewart perfect) room in the house. Still looks the same 'cause all his stuff is still here. <P>OK, I'm done now - we all hope, don't we?<P>lori