Well I don't know about the women here believer but I understand perfectly well what you mean.

I have certain friends that were not a friend of the marriage even before D-day. Talking trash about a mate is not productive. It would have been much better if they had insisted that I get counseling.

I've noticed men are a bit more careful. I work with all men, and remember one man saying something disparaging about the other guys wife. He was immediately advised never to speak about the wife again. And it was at lunch, with lots of witnesses. I had a lot of respect for him after that. And frankly, it was all said jokingly.

I guess it is just the difference in men and women.

For example, (while NotSleeping is sleeping), one of the big complaints my WH had in our marriage is that I never seemed to initiate anything - where to eat, what to do, planning for vacations, etc. Mostly I'm a content person, and just enjoyed spending time with him, no matter what.

But I decided to work on being more outspoken, since it seemed to bother him. So the Mother's Day before D-day, I told him I wanted to go for fish-and-chips (you in the far south have some other name for them) at the harbor.

As we were walking to the fish stand, WH told me he would rather go to a Mexican restaurant. We did, and that was that. I was a bit disppointed and mentioned it to a friend.

She told me that my WH was insensitive, it was Mother's Day, he always got his way, and then had the nerve to complain that I never made plans. She went on to tell me that she didn't know why I stayed married, everything was HIM, HIM, HIM. Then the kids came up - she said I was the only mother his 6 kids knew, how DARE he not honor a Mother's Day wish?

It would have been more helpful for her to suggest counseling, noting that there were some obvious things the two of us needed to work on.

NotSleeping, I read this recently. You can't be a conscious person and unethical at the same time. I hated being around people in As pre-A. Now, with everything I have unfortunately learned, I definitely don't want to hang out with them. There is a difference being with someone who had an A, has learned from it, and would never do it again. This couple had an A and ended up together. I'm not even trying to condemn them here. If it were me I just would have nothing to talk about with them.

And the "loser" comment. That shows me a WW that has learned nothing. She boinks an OM while pregnant, and the OM boinks a pregnant MM, and who are the "losers" here? Give me a friggin break! It's easy to blame the loser BH to justify your unsavory actions. Is that who you want to hang out with Conscious people don't make those kind of really bad choices. And let's face it, anyone who has been Med for a while can each take a turn at being a loser in the M. It takes a while to grow up and be healthy. So I say dump the loser couple, especially if they show no remorse for their actions. Why is it even common knowledge about their history?

:::brief threadjack:::

CV...Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you and your family! I've been lurking and posting to "new arrivals" over here in GQII lately and sort of lost track of the "Recovery" forum. Here's hoping my bestest MB buddy is doing well!!

SD

:::end threadjack:::

Thanks for your input everybody. I do think I am going to keep my distance from this couple, and I will try to convince my DW of the same. She is early enough in the recovery process that she may not see why this is the right choice, and she will probably think I am overreacting, but I can't pretend to be OK with something when I'm not, especially something that I feel could be harmful to our own marriage and recovery.

I've seen a few people wonder why I even know of the origin of John and Jane's relationship. They told us. In fact, I think it was the first time we all went out as couples. The typical "how did you meet?" question came up and they told us. They seemed a little hesitant, but they certainly weren't ashamed enough to make up some other story. So they are obviously comfortable enough with adultery to tell their affair story to people they just met.

One thing I do wonder is how their M will do in the long run. They've only been together now a few years. The wisdom stated here is that affair relationships eventually break up (even if they marry) when they are exposed to reality. Well, there's no reality like that of marriage, mixed families, and raising infants. I hope they do make it, despite the A, because another D would be devastating to the children. But I wonder when they hit the inevitable hard times in their M if John will start to wonder, "what if she cheats on me?" Living with that doubt is the price he'll have to pay I guess.

NS

Well, and this has to be a huge problem in affair marriages. When you marry someone who does not believe in fidelity and faithfulness; does not respect marriage vows, one has to EXPECT infidelity. That is a pretty shaky foundation!

The quotes I've seen are they have around a 3% chance of making it. That's another reason I would stay away. They deal with problems by dumping the loser and latching onto a married person. Not very healthy friends for you or your wife.

This only you can answer.

If I had to chose my friends based on perfect morality and exactly the same as mine, I'd have no friends.

DF, no one has perfect moral adherence, but not everyone is actively engaged in adultery and actively condoning wrongdoing. I choose my friends carefully and I do not hang out with dopers, thieves, rapists, murderers or adulterers or anyone else who actively CONDONES wrongdoing. But.......that's just me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Who's to say the adulterers condone their own actions to friends? I'd think it would be the opposite as most are ashamed anyway. I was more or less making light of the situation.

If we choose friends based on perfection, we would not have any! LOL.

ML: Did JulieW's H stay in AA? I bumped the thread. Did I read into your posts correctly that you 2 know each other? I'm interested if AA took.

No one is perfect (morality included). By design we're all fallable human beings. I don't expect my friends to be anything but good honest fallable human beings. That includes them sharing my beliefs that adultery is wrong where one should be genuinely remorseful, repent and learn if they participate in it.

From the limited info NS has offered, the couple under discussion (John & Jane) don't appear to be remorseful nor have they repented. But instead perpetuate their justifictations for cheating using "BH was a Loser" so their union must be different/special from any other cheaters.

Jo

But they do CONDONE their actions. Not only that, but they are still together. They never STOPPED doing it, in other words.


Of course not, but there is a huge difference between inperfect and being corrupt.


I haven't heard a peep. I suspect that her husband didn't "take" and that might explain the silence. Hoping I am wrong...

Brief threadjack to my MB buddy SD.

"Here's hoping my bestest MB buddy is doing well!!"

Of course the feelings are quite mutual! I've been thinking about you and wondering how you're doing. I hang out mostly on Recovery. I guess we all have to find the place where we maybe can give back some of what we got here on MB. After seeing your "hello" message to me yesterday SD I found myself smiling. You have to admit we had some excellent laughs directed at our fogged out WSs. If you think it would fit for this new group on GQ11, some day maybe you could pull out that recovery game thread I started about a month after my d-day. That thread was pretty hilarious. I still remember some of what you wrote. Of course if I read it now I might get depressed. AN began a thread called "CV55" on recovery. If you get a chance stop in and give an update on how you're doing, OK? I'll be looking for you!

NS wrote:

"Also, I don't know if my W would ever acknowledge this, but I do wonder how much John and Jane's example influenced her own decision to have an A. I'm not BLAMING the A on them by any means, but it certainly doesn't make me feel like being friends with them."

In the book "After the Affair" the author has a chapter that discusses all the factors that make an M vulnerable to infidelity. One of those factors are being around friends and family who are involved in As, especially when it is accepted behavior. I don't have one doubt that this is correct. In my H's family both his S and B left their BSs for the OPs, which they both eventually dumped. The OPs were accepted into the family very quickly. I know that this acceptance played a factor in my H's weakening of his own values. Every time people witness an A couple that appears happy it justifies adultery. All the Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt's of the world put a pretty face on infidelity and help people believe that the whole soulmate crap trumps M vows.

As far as the comments here about being too "judgemental" about our "friends", just look at what NS wrote.

"I've seen a few people wonder why I even know of the origin of John and Jane's relationship. They told us. In fact, I think it was the first time we all went out as couples. The typical "how did you meet?" question came up and they told us. They seemed a little hesitant, but they certainly weren't ashamed enough to make up some other story. So they are obviously comfortable enough with adultery to tell their affair story to people they just met."

Give me another "F"ing break! Not only was this couple not ashamed to tell their affair story to people they "just met", they also revealed that they were screwing each other while she was pregnant with her H's baby. That is a true love story! Makes me want to gag! These are 2 people that don't seem to feel remorse, shame, nada. I would prefer to lessen my friend pool then hang out with them, cause seriously, I'll say it again. What would we talk about?

Would you want your kids hanging around with other kids that do drugs, cut school, or are deadbeats???

Birds of a feather flock together. Please think carefully if this couple is trustworthy.


kd's heartbreak

I vote no.

Post deleted by GBH

I see, so every relationship should be maintained with anyone, no matter how pernicious [robbers, rapists, child molestors], just so the children can play with their children? Surely, you must be on some bad crack if you believe that. How do you imagine children will learn right from wrong if you don't TEACH them? By osmosis? What you suggest is a form of PARENTAL NEGLECT and dereliction of duty.

Doesnt' that send a terrible message to the children when the parents use no judgement or discretion in choosing their friends? The parents can't exactly teach their children to choose their friends WISELY if they don't practice that principle in their own lives, can they?

Boy you're quick ML... I thought better of that after I posted and tried to delete but you beat me to it.

Truth is, none of us here know all that much about this couple, just what NS posted. And clearly it's NS's decision as to whethr his kids hang out with J&J's kids. What was eating at me, though, was the continued blanket chastising that people here automatically cast upon anyone who has made the horrendous choise of having an A.

I have to give J&J a wee bit of credit for acutally being HONEST about how they met. I agree that it's not the way to start a relationship, but they practiced RH, right?

I'd be willing to bet that more than a few of us are friends with couples whose relationships may have started as As and we don't even know it. Think about it -- do you seriously think that every one your married friends was totally single (we're talking not married and not dating anyone) when they met their current spouse? I'd say the odds are pretty slim. Not married perhaps, but they may have been "cheating" on a BF/GF when they first starting seeing their current spouse.

About the kids: Do you seriously forbid your kids from being friends with another kid because you don't like something about one of the kid's parents? While I was growing up, one of my friends had an abusive dad. I didn't know it at the time, but I remember she liked to hang out with me and my family, partly because my dad was "so nice" (her words). Years later I learned that her father was abusive to her and her mom (who finally divorced him - no A - and yes, he was a loser!). I can't imagine how my friend might have turned out if all her friends parents forbade her from being friends with their kids, and the only adult male in her life was her abusive father.

Or how about a child with parents of meager means? Or a different religious or ethnic background? Maybe one of the parents is an artist and you think all artists are flakes? You don't want to teach your kids about acceptance and diversity? Oh yeah, I keep forgetting, you're all Christians -- and I know how much some Christians abhor diversity.

I can understand wanting to shield children from dangers like drug dealers or sexual preditors, but if you shield them from everything a clone of their own family unit by cocooning them away in some Christian school and never exposing them to anything except things which are a carbon copy of home, they're gonna be in for a rude awakening once they get out into the real world.