Ed Zachery!

I can imagine both Jane and John think to themselves:

"John saved poor preggers Jane (and her unborn baby) from her *loser BH*"

... and so the denial that THEY themselves are immoral and cheaters continues.

Resilient - You and I think alike.

So, here is a quick recap. Jane and her husband were married and had 1 child. Her husband was a HUGE loser. We all can agree on that. Jane didn't have too many choices. Facing the marriage problems was out. Divorce was out. Refusing sex with the loser was out. And for some reason, she was unable to use birth control (or maybe it didn't work, as she probably told John)

So, ooops, she is preggars. And during that 9 month period, she decided to boink John. No problem there - she didn't need birth control any more.

And they all lived happily every after.

LG, this is all IRRELEVANT. We do not NEED to know anything about the XH to know that Jane is an adulterer who feels no remorse for her adultery. WE judge our friends for THEIR OWN behavior, not anyone elses.

So, it doesn't matter if her XBH was SATAN himself, nothing will erase the factoid that Jane is an adulteress who promotes adultery. NOTHING EXCUSES AN AFFAIR. The crimes, real or imagined, of the XH are completely and totally IRRELEVANT to Jane's faithless behavior.

I have to say, the way this (bolded above) is worded it says to me this poster believes the order in which J & J did things was trivial because its the results that matter -- that being Jane and John are together (aka meant to be).

Am I reading or translating this wrong? I hope so.

Jo

With your line of thinking, IMHO...you have not yet earned the F yet. You give the "it's wrong... but" attitude.




Yeah, things get out of order... that's a nice way for a "former" wayward to put it!



Then perhaps you would do well to not quote scripture at all... since the idea you tried to get across with your quote was in no way applicable to this situation.

The ending of your post sounds as though it was written by someone else. You actually sound reasonable. EVERYONE here agrees that remorseful FWS can be great friends.... again that is NOT what is being discussed. You have just manipulated this entire thread and really are arguing both sides of the issue... neither of them very well.

Just my 2 cents.

MEDC:

As for the scripture, I don't quote it. But, I think the line used has alot of applicability to the questions asked. At the time I first wrote it on this thread, there was alot of rightouesness (sp?) going on. So the point was to be careful how you critize somebody with out some or more of the facts. And there was a sizable dearth in facts, and some outright misrepresentation of some of them to that point.

As for the ending on my post, It was written by someone else. It was written by MelodyLane. And I have the greatest respect for her POV.

And I agree with that part of her post, that is why I reposted it. Because we have to accept people for thier actions are now and how they are presented to you. And if you go back to NotSleeping's original post, he and his WW thought that J&J were ok people. Now that his W had had an A, he didn't know if he wanted to associate with them.

We make choices in who we want to associate with. MEDC does, Mel does and even LG. The lenses we use to look at people are different for each of us. And some things will be deal killers for you and maybe not for me, and vice versa. For many betrayed spouses, knowing someone has been in an A may be a deal killer. That is acceptable to me. But if you get to know somebody and find them to be a friend, and after a reasonable amount of time (1 year, 2 years, 5?) you find out about something in thier past, (An A, etc) you are allowed to reevaluate your R with that person. But you may also have to re-evaluate some of your deal killers at that time won't you?

And for this:

With your line of thinking, IMHO...you have not yet earned the F yet. You give the "it's wrong... but" attitude.

I do not have that type of attitude. I will interfere in any Affair Relationship's I come across. Try to get them to see the light. And offer support where I think I can help around here. But, MEDC, I am tainted. Pretty hard for me to get to self-rightoues (sp?) about it, don'cha think?

And the only one who I feel can give me the "F" is my Betrayed spouse. When she pins it next to my scarlet letter. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

LG, we can only judge the facts as they are presented, and there are plenty enough here to make a judgement of the situation.

The Bible teaches that we are SUPPOSED to judge right from wrong, so your use of the scripture was clearly out of place. It is not "self righteous" to judge right from wrong, but a COMMANDMENT. Our prisons are full of people who can't judge right from wrong and that is exactly where they belong.

Another commandment is to not to associate with works of darkness, and that seems like some pretty simple, common sense if you ask me. As a decent human being, if I value traits like honesty, fidelity, trustworthiness, and justice, then i would be a hypocrite if I chose friends who rejected those values. Not only that, but I wouldn't have much in common with them and certainly couldn't trust them.

In this case, the couple does not value faithfulness and fidelity and the sanctity of marriage, so they could hardly be expected to demonstrate those values in a friendship. NS would be foolhardy to continue to befriend them, and I think he is wise to have second thoughts.

LG, I know that you are fairly new here, but you do give serious pause to folks when you minimize a devastating affair as:
If that is not defining deviancy down, I don't know what is, LG. An affair is an affair, it is not a matter of unfortunate timing and I hope you will rethink that definition.

GBH, are you saying that people need to expose their children to bad influences so they build up some sort of immunity...like a flu shot???

Are you suggesting that this be done in order to teach children how to handle situations of bad influence?

What about teaching them to handle situations in which people are making poor choices through the parents example?

The child then learns that they have the right to decide what they are willing or unwilling to accept as part of their own life.



IMO, the point is to teach children - by example - how to respond to situations that don't line up with their own moral standards.

Yeah, I guess more or less that's what I'm thinking, but to clarify: I would not advocate deliberately putting someone in harm's way -- like sending them off to hang out with a drug dealer or pushing them into traffic. Rather, I guess my approach would be to not insulate someone to the point that they never see/experience anything that might be considered objectonable.

Funny you use the flu shot analogy. I know "germophobes" who walk around with Purell in their pockets and repeatedly disinfect everything within a 25 foot range of themselves. I, OTOH, am not a germophobe, and have never used Purell. Guess who gets sick more often? The people who shield their bodies from all things "bad" and never let their immune systems work. I never get sick.

I hate for people to think that I'm all for throwing an innocent child at a drug dealer! I'm not! But I am for children developing good moral standards through a combination of parental guidance and life experiences outside what their parents teach them.

I can understand NS's dilemma. If J&J are truly showing zero remorse (something none of us really know as we're only hearing snippets posted on the internet), I lean toward keeping at least some distance there, especially with regards to close personal opposite-sex relationships. I just feel badly if the kids are really close because kids should not be made to suffer as a result of adults' bad choices.

How many children have you raised, GBH?

I think this discussion has kind of veered off of NS's original concern, which is should he and his W dump this couple as friends to hang with. Personally I think the kids are innocent here. My son is friends with a boy whose parents are in a 2nd M. This couple may be a result of an A M. Who knows? I really like this kid and would never keep my son from him even if I knew his mom and stepdad are A partners. It's not his fault. OTOH, if I knew they were A partners I wouldn't want to hang out with them as friends.

I wonder sometimes if the tolerance level for being around active A partners is just different for a FWS and a BS. A FWS might abhor A behavior, and even try to help a couple going through infidelity. However, a BS's life is ripped apart in a totally different way. If my H's good friend engaged in an A he might hate it, but I'm not sure he would dump this friend. However, I would have no problem dumping a friend who is actively engaged in an A. This isn't a judgement, just an observation. I could be off the wall with this generalization.

CV55, and to your point, no one ever even SAID the children couldn't see his children, so this has never even been the issue. Just a distraction from the real issue.

I hope this isn't too much of a thread jack, I believe it is the same type of question the original poster began the thread w/.

Here's my situation...

My sister married a jerk, who cheated on her, and banked on her idea that marriage was forever regardless of what addictions he had or how unfaithful he was.

During their marriage, I tried to support my sister. I basically just tolerated her H....I was civil to him.

After 20+ years of marriage, four kids, and after she was diagnosed w/ cancer, he left her for a sleezy daughter of a minister.

Anyway, three years have passed. My XBIL is now married to the ho and living a good distance away.

But, every now and then there is a family get together. My sister has the "let's all get along attitude" where her XH is concerned. For the sake of the family, she has been more than civil w/ the two of them.

I OTOH don't want ANYTHING to do w/ either of them. And since I haven't made up my mind whether to be civil to them or otherwise, I have avoided the occasional family get together when they are going to be there.

I realize that I can't do this forever.

So since my sister has moved past this, should I as well? Should I be civil too?

I'm tearing up right now when I think of what pain and hurt my sister went through b/c of him.

Oh, and you're gonna LOVE THIS....

That creep sends me a Christmas newsletter every year, since he left my sister! In fact he sends one to ALL of our family...including our mother!!!

We all collectively throw it away w/o responding to it, but I wish could think of something that would burn him worse than being ignored.

Here's the newsletter he sent to me last year, (I didn't open this years letter...just threw it away)...

(He writes in third person.)

Dear Family and Friends,

It has been a year of many blessings for us. From our wedding in February and as we prepare to share Christmas together, we look back on the year and find much to be grateful for in this season of thanksgiving. After a small, but enchanted wedding, we enjoyed a fun and relaxing honeymoon at Disney World in Florida (a little tough coming back at -10 and the reality of every day life)! Walter continued to live and work in New Jersey until his transfer in October as he piled on the commuting miles.

Walter's(XBIL) job in Maine, though still with the IRS, was a step down from management and back into dealing with the taxpayer. He loves it! He's relaxed and he comes home stress free. Of course the commute down scenic route 3 verses the 8 lanes of traffic on those NJ highways helps!

Sue(OW) [b]m keeps the house running smoothly. Her homemade bread is a favorite that keeps everyone happy and she has been instrumental in merging Walter's styles and mannerisms into the existing culture in the household- no easy task! She continues working at her full time job with a social agency.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Then he talks about his kids. And then continues...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It has been a year of many changes but we feel truly blessed for the good health we have and the gift of family and friends.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year![/b]

I would never condone an affair marriage. If your sister wants to go and offer her apparent support of his affair right in front of her children, that is her prerogative, but I would not do the same. This is how children get morally confused. When they see their grown ups advocating wrongdoing, they begin to doubt their own instincts of right and wrong. She is sending them the message that it is ok to grow up and have affairs.

Marsh wrote:

We all collectively throw it away w/o responding to it, but I wish could think of something that would burn him worse than being ignored.


Return to sender unopened. Nobody would mistake that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
M2L

First off, I don't know how many more Christmas letters you will get from the two of them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Their clock is most likely ticking down rapidly, despite the Cleaverish appearance they want to portray. Maybe there won't be a next year, if you're lucky.

If you're not, I would send it back to them unopened, marked "Return to Sender".

I do not mean this as any disrespect to your sister, who has suffered terribly at the hands of this man, but the fact that she can tolerate the two of them is probably not so much an indication of healing, as it is that she doesn't feel that she deserved any better.

Even for a true Christian, the proper response, IMO, to toxic people is to lift them daily before God in prayer, and do not allow them into your life. She can pray for them without lending their A support by her presence. That may be all you are able to do.

I have found that my tolerance for WS's has gone down pretty much to zero after what I went through. FWS's, different story. Several of my best friends are FWW's. I am proud to associate with them. But someone boldly flaunting their sin to the world is not someone I would want to associate with, at any cost.

I sympathize with your dilemma, but honestly I think you have a better perspective on this than your sister.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> m2l beat me, but that makes it official - 2 to 0!

I agree.

My sister is making a big mistake by choosing to "go along" w/ this...and her kids ARE morally confused b/c of her choice to "go along".

Is it ever OK to be rude, Mel?

That's more or less what I'm asking.

If I attend one of these family get togethers and he's there, I know he'll come over and make an introduction...is it OK to be rude? B/c THAT is what I'd really like to be.

How would you handle a situation like that?

~ Marsh

We have bets going that there won't be a newletter next year either.




I know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

The fact that she even married him says she didn't think much of herself to begin w/. (she was 17, though)

So sad.

~ Marsh

Wow, Neak is so very right. She probably believes she is being somehow virtuous by being morally neutral. But that is not virtuous or emotionally "healthy;" rather a sign of moral bankruptcy at worst, moral cowardice at best.