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The question of forgiveness is entirely seperate from holding anger, grudges. One does not have to enact a pretend, feel good, "forgiveness" in order to release anger. It wasn't intended to be a solely selfish act just to make ourselves feel good.
When God offers forgiveness, we are not forgiven until we ACCEPT that gift. He does not hand out blanket, cheap forgiveness otherwise, everyone the world over would be forgiven TODAY. It is the same with our brothers; they are not forgiven until they ACCEPT that gift, because in the biblical sense, forgiveness is a TWO WAY street. It takes a forgiver and a forgivee. The act of forgiveness described in the Bible is intended to reconcile, not to make us feel sanctimonious and holy moly inside.
To pass out cheap forgiveness to those who don't want or feel they need your forgiveness is really very arrogant when you think about it. It presumes that they have done something warranting your forgiveness in the first place, which may not even be the case. Passing out unwanted, cheap forgiveness to those who don't want or care for it, is an empty exercise in feel goodism. If it was what God expected, he would PRACTICE that too.
Our standard of forgiveness should be just like God's and Jesus tells us in Luke how this is to be done: "...If your brother sins, rebuke him, and IF HE REPENTS, forgive him (Luke 16:3-4).
That is how Jesus forgives and to think otherwise is to imagine we have a higher standard than him.
"Jesus makes it clear that forgiveness is conditional. We are not to rebuke unless a sin has been committed, nor are we to forgive unless true repentance has occurred. " From Bold Love
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Just a question. Do you think God forgave the people who crucified Jesus when Jesus asked God to "forgive them for they know not what they do"? Those people didn't repent of anything. So do you think God forgave them?
RBW (me) FWH lostboyz
Married for 16 years
DDay on 10/10/03
Reconciliation on 2/8/04
Son 17, Twin son & daughter 16
4 years of a strong recovery
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I'm reading, thanks Mel.
Just to clarify for all, when I say I struggle for full forgiveness of ex-H and OW, I mean I find myself not thinking of them with indifference. But instead with thoughts of ill will. Those times are few and far between, but they do exist. Outside of that, I think of them as people who need my prayers the most.
Jo
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Just a question. Do you think God forgave the people who crucified Jesus when Jesus asked God to "forgive them for they know not what they do"? Those people didn't repent of anything. So do you think God forgave them? I think he forgave the people who WANTED to be forgiven and who repented. He wanted them ALL to be forgiven, that doesn't mean they all CHOSE to accept it. I don't imagine that he dragged anyone into heaven against their will or forced his gift on them.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I forgave OW years ago ... ummmm (thinking) ..... at least 7 years
things I do NOT hold for her in my heart are the following
admiration
friendship
trust
I pray she has learned better behavior
but I doubt it
she had a life-long pattern of infidelity
but, I care not
she is not in my life
nor will she ever be
I also forgave my WH's former friend who facilitated AND encouraged my H's affair (ALL med should have some exra on the side if they can. YOU deserve it)
and he too has been banished to non-existant status in our life
>>> he is far more dangerous to my marriage today than OW would be at this time >>> he is an alcoholic who has (apparently) never gone for treatment
Pep
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I look at forgiveness this way.
We are all part of God's family. Yes, as in our own earthly families, we get angry and hurt when one of our relatives harms us. After a while, holding on to the anger and resentment will harm us more than it does the offender.
Then comes Christmas. I don't know if my relative WANTS my forgiveness, but it is the best gift I have to offer. I take my forgiveness, wash away the anger and resentment, and then wrap it up in beautiful wrapping paper. I then set that package on the shelf in my gift closet, ready for when my relative comes and asks for it.
Do I call my relative to come over and get his gift? No. I wait until such time as my relative brings his gift of repentence to me.
There is no point in offering the gift of forgiveness to my relative until such time as he comes to me with his repentence. Actually, IMO, this would be extremely harmful to my relative's soul. Why? Because for my relative to receive the gift of forgiveness without his repentence runs a high risk that he will think he needs to do nothing else...that MY forgiveness is all he needs...and something that he is ENTITLED to receive. With that thinking, he would never ask God for forgiveness...and that is what really counts.
So, my forgiveness is there, waiting for my relative to ask for it...at which point, I will happily give it to him. I have forgiven him...but he doesn't know it. He shouldn't know it until the time is right.
In the meantime, there are things I can do to increase the odds that my relative will ask for his gift of forgivenenss.
I can pray for that relative. Also, pray that God will take your anger and resentment away from you. Just give it all to God.
I can stop talking disparingly about that person to others.
I can stop avoiding that person. By that, I don't mean engaging socially with him. I simply mean that if I see that person in the grocery store, I simply behave as if he was one of any other shoppers in the store. I don't stare at him in anger; I don't make snide comments to or about him; I don't mutter under my breath. If I need to pass by him, and his shopping cart is in the way, I say, "Excuse me, please." and then pass by...just as I would if he was anyone else.
Yes, the anger and hurt will probably flare up, but the trick is to LET GO of it and give it back to God. Eventually, it will probably fade to a dull ache.
So, I think it's OK to forgive, but not a good idea to let the offender know he's forgiven until he is ready for it. Just get out of the way and let God handle him.
I hope I'm making sense this morning.
"Your actions are so loud that I can't hear a word you're saying!"
BW M 44 yrs to still-foggy but now-faithful WH. What/how I post=my biz. Report any perceived violations to the Mods.
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I'm reading, thanks Mel.
Just to clarify for all, when I say I struggle for full forgiveness of ex-H and OW, I mean I find myself not thinking of them with indifference. But instead with thoughts of ill will. Those times are few and far between, but they do exist. Outside of that, I think of them as people who need my prayers the most.
Jo Jo, I don't know if its possible to feel anything but ILL WILL against evil. I hope I never ever feel indifference about evil. I do not hold a grudge anymore against my XH for what he did to me, but I will always hate the evil that he did to our family. I do hope very much that they someday find their way out of the woods, though.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I haven't read what's been said on this thread but thought this was the place to respond to Jo's question; Quote:
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How can we FORGIVE someone who has not found the Lord?
How can we FORGIVE an active evildoer?
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We, mankind (aka evildoers), hadn't found the Lord before His Son Jesus died on the cross to forgive us our sins.
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We can have love enough in our hearts to pray for their SALVATION...
The authors of BOLD LOVE stress that it is not LOVING to cheaply forgive..as that does not help the sinner..nor MANKIND..it's a selfish act which makes you feel better but the SINNER continues their WRONGDOING towards others because they have not repented or sought salvation...I strongly agree with them.
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Then how about we Forgive them (wrong doers) first without their request for forgiveness (similar to Jesus) so we can live without malice towards them, then we pray for their salvation after that. And maybe they'll request our forgiveness after our prayers. In my belief, the way I've been taught, Jesus does not FORGIVE those who does not ASK FOR FORGIVENESS..A Christian is taught to REPENT of their sins.... I read somewhere that someone thinks that I don't believe in FORGIVENESS. I certainly do. I FORGIVE THOSE WHO ASK ME TO FORGIVE THEM...fellow Christians..who have accepted the Lord.. I MOST CERTAINLY HAVE FORGIVEN MY HUSBAND. who prays daily with me as we hold hands.... I am so much a believer in FORGIVENESS that I believe that it should not been done CHEAPLY... In my belief, we are NOT GOD..WE ARE NOT JESUS..Sinners must first go to HIM in order to truly be FORGIVEN of their sins...My forgiveness is that of a fellow evildoer..who continues to seek salvation..but I will never attain the SANCTITY OF THE LORD... But I don't harshly judge any of you who think differently than me... And I'm trying to grow to a place of not harshly judging the OW..to be strong in my conviction to pray for her salvation...but I HAVE NOT FORGIVEN HER...according to my Christian beliefs, not necessarily CORRECT but my beliefs, that is not what I am commanded to do...
I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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As I said on the Bold Love thread: Christians are not instructed to FORGIVE THE UNREPENTANT SINNER.... I'm hearing you interpret FH's post to mean that one can CHOOSE to do this but that is not how we are instructed.
We are instructed to BOLDLY LOVE THE SINNER AND REMAIN OPEN TO THE OPPORTUNITY FOR THEIR REPENTANCE...
I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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Ok. I'm done for awhile on this but Forever explains this so well, IMO, in his post to Georgia on the Bold Love thread. I got so much out of that book and that discussion...sorry to keep bringing it up... Quote:
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Just got your email on the forgiveness thing. First of all, I think that the opinion you posted to me is someone's way of rationalizing why they haven't forgiven the one that has wronged them. Just my thought.
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It may seem comforting to accuse me of “rationalizing” NOT forgiving someone who has not repented, but unless the accusation can be backed up with the Scripture that we are using as the basis for determining “truth,” then I would tend to think that “rationalization” is rather encompassing of the “accuser” also. So we might have to dig deeper into the Scripture for clarification and illumination on this issue of "forgiveness."
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I do disagree with that argument, obviously. Here is my reason, God must have forgiven us first if he knew the sins we would commit and still be willing to send his Son to die for us. Think that over.
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If your son is talking about “predestination,” that is, that God foreknew who would accept Jesus Christ and who would not, I would agree with him. However, if your son is arguing that God grants “blanket” forgiveness to all people REGARDLESS of whether or not they have repented and accepted Jesus Christ, I would disagree. God has, through Christ, forgiven all of a believer's sins…past, present, and future. But to those who have not repented and accepted Christ, their sin remains and is unforgiven. “Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. “Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Behsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.” (Matt.11:20-24 NIV)
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Second, if you don't forgive someone just because they haven't forgiven you, you harbor bitterness and resentment perhaps without even realizing it. True, you can only do so much to make the situation right. But that does not mean that you have not forgiven them for what they have done.
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Certainly someone CAN “harbor” bitterness and resentment, but not if they have released that sinner into God’s hands. The indwelling Holy Spirit will not allow us to “lie to God” that way and will convict us of bitterness and resentment, even though that might the “human reaction.” I think a distinction needs to be drawn here in that we are talking about two different “sets” of sinners. The first “set” are those who have NOT accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. They are NOT forgiven by God, their sins are NOT forgiven by God, and God WILL visit His wrath upon them at the Judgment. The second “set” are those believers who have fallen into sin. There eternity IS secure, in my humble opinion, if they had a true conversion experience. But like the Prodigal Son, they are still capable of succumbing to the temptations of sin. Like the Prodigal Son, they will be forgiven and restored to the full “sonship” that they never lost, other than in their minds when then “come to their senses” and repent. I am certain, though the Scripture doesn’t say directly, that the father of the Prodigal son felt sadness, perhaps disappointment, with “bad choices” of the son, but he didn’t harbor resentment or bitterness. He also, let him go, and awaited his return in humble repentance before granting him his forgiveness, putting on new “son’s robes,” and throwing a welcome back party. The brother on the other hand, did have resentment and bitterness, because felt “better than” the brother who had sinned and not “stayed the course.” The father let him know that HIS faithfulness would also be rewarded to a “greater degree” in the future.
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Think about you and mom. She has not asked for forgiveness. If you have not forgiven her in your heart then you harbor wrong feelings toward her. When you have to answer one day for your sins, even as a Christian (which I believe we all will), you would look pretty foolish to say to God, "I never forgave her because she never asked for it." That is a poor excuse. Remember, forgiveness does not mean that you forget about what has been done to you, but that you are not holding it against that person.
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I think that your son is not talking about something all that different from what I have been saying. He is calling it “forgiveness,” but I think it could be better called “love.” “Love” for sinners, for those who “spitefully use you,” for your “enemies,” etc. NOT seeking vengeance on your own, but turning them over to God for HIS judgment. God “loves” all of mankind. That is the thought and idea and motivation behind John 3:16. BUT, though God loves all of us, He only grants forgiveness to those who have repented of their sins and accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior.
Should a church, for example, forgive someone who is a member of the church who is actively committing adultery without that person FIRST coming to repentance? To allow such a person, unrepentant and fellowshipping with other believers, would give tacit “approval” to their willful sin. That is decidedly against what Jesus teaches in Matthew 18:15-20. There is NO statement about “harboring” bitterness and resentment when they are treated like a “tax collector.” The OBJECT is to attain repentance, forgiveness, and restoration of full fellowship. It is done in LOVE for the sinner “brother or sister” in Christ because “judgment” begins with the house of God.
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What do you think?
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I, too, am looking forward to your thoughts.
God bless.
I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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Thanks for that clarification, Mel. That makes sense to me.
RBW (me) FWH lostboyz
Married for 16 years
DDay on 10/10/03
Reconciliation on 2/8/04
Son 17, Twin son & daughter 16
4 years of a strong recovery
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The question of forgiveness is entirely seperate from holding anger, grudges. One does not have to enact a pretend, feel good, "forgiveness" in order to release anger. It wasn't intended to be a solely selfish act just to make ourselves feel good.
When God offers forgiveness, we are not forgiven until we ACCEPT that gift. He does not hand out blanket, cheap forgiveness otherwise, everyone the world over would be forgiven TODAY. It is the same with our brothers; they are not forgiven until they ACCEPT that gift, because in the biblical sense, forgiveness is a TWO WAY street. It takes a forgiver and a forgivee. The act of forgiveness described in the Bible is intended to reconcile, not to make us feel sanctimonious and holy moly inside. Forgiveness is the mental, emotional and/or spiritual process of ceasing to feel resentment or anger against another person for a perceived offence, difference or mistake, or ceasing to demand punishment or restitution. Forgiveness may be considered simply in terms of the person who forgives, in terms of the person forgiven and/or in terms of the relationship between the forgiver and the person forgiven. In some contexts, it may be granted without any expectation of compensation, and without any response on the part of the offender (for example, one may forgive a person who is dead). To pass out cheap forgiveness to those who don't want or feel they need your forgiveness is really very arrogant when you think about it. It presumes that they have done something warranting your forgiveness in the first place, which may not even be the case. Passing out unwanted, cheap forgiveness to those who don't want or care for it, is an empty exercise in feel goodism. If it was what God expected, he would PRACTICE that too. IMHO, God does pass out blanket forgiveness in grace, both common and divine. It is not a requirement to repent in order to be saved. It is by God's Grace (unmerited favor), therefore, that salvation is granted to man, on the condition that we put our faith (meaning belief i.e. trust)in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, i.e. belief that Jesus is from God, Jesus is the Messiah and that his death on the cross has the power to take away our sins, thus making us blameless in the sight of God. Our standard of forgiveness should be just like God's and Jesus tells us in Luke how this is to be done: "...If your brother sins, rebuke him, and IF HE REPENTS, forgive him (Luke 16:3-4).
That is how Jesus forgives and to think otherwise is to imagine we have a higher standard than him.
"Jesus makes it clear that forgiveness is conditional. We are not to rebuke unless a sin has been committed, nor are we to forgive unless true repentance has occurred. " From Bold Love I agree except, I believe, forgiveness is still necessary(in our hearts) when no repetance is given. It is obviously not necessary to give forgiveness to the individual but we must in our heart to remove the resntment and anger over the sin.(Rather than being sanctimonious and holy moly) This is necessary in order to protect ourselves from commiting more sinful acts out of revenge. Just my $0.02
grindnfool
M-13 years
D-Day 10/26/06
Divorced 11.2007
DS-16, DD-9
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IMHO, God does pass out blanket forgiveness in grace, both common and divine. It is not a requirement to repent in order to be saved. - grindinfool, there are numerous verses that do state that repentence is required for forgiveness and forgiveness is required for salvation. If repentence were not required, then EVERYONE would be forgiven, and we know they are not. Mark 1:4 And so John came, baptizing in the desert region and preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.Luke 3:3 He went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.Matthew 21:32 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. Matthew 11:20-21 Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. 21"Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. Matthew 4:17 From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."Then Peter said to them,
Acts 2:38 "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."I agree except, I believe, forgiveness is still necessary(in our hearts) when no repetance is given. It is obviously not necessary to give forgiveness to the individual but we must in our heart to remove the resntment and anger over the sin.(Rather than being sanctimonious and holy moly) This is necessary in order to protect ourselves from commiting more sinful acts out of revenge. Forgiveness in the biblical sense takes TWO people, a forgiver and a forgivee, because the purpose is reconciliation, not to make ourselves feel good and sanctimonious. It was not intended to be a SELFISH ACT. We are not forgiven by God until we RECEIVE and accept his gift of forgiveness. The same applies to our brother. This other view of forgiveness is really selfishness masquerading as idealism. The argument being, though you do not deserve to be forgiven, and though you may not even be sorry, I forgive you because *I* want to feel better. In other words, it's all about SELF, SELF, SELF, rather than our brother. Forgiveness was not intended to be used selfishly or to be passed out like cheap candy to make us FEEL better. It was intended to be a beautiful gift that achieves a GODLY purpose. This does not. We don't have to go through a pretend exercise of granting forgiveness to one who doesn't want or need our forgiveness in order to release anger. We can release anger and bitterness without pretending to forgive.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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For my religion, forgiveness simply is given as part of the process of life.
It is many fold. And it is a process.
It need not be requested, because the person who is the one offended is the person who is most in need of the release that forgiveness has to offer, in most cases (although, not in all cases).
I say forgiveness is many fold, because it has purposes and gifts within it that are intended for both the giver and receiver.
The initial giver often is the person who benefits most from the gift of forgiveness, as he is released from bearing the sin of the other. This is said because often the offense brought to bear upon a person becomes a weight that is then carried by the victim - it becomes heavier and heavier. It breeds anger and discontent, hatred and depression. The original offense can become the breeding ground for evil (as someone above mentioned, I shall paraphrase - basically Satan uses the original offense, takes over and uses it to breed enough evil within the victim for thoughts and acts of revenge and retribution).
So, the offended party offers forgiveness and the gift comes back to him as release from evil within himself. One of the "many folds" of the process.
Of course, the offender can accept or reject the forgiveness. This does not affect the offering. Forgiveness is like truth. People can believe it, accept it, or reject it. It does not change the fact that the truth remains there, that "it is". The same goes for forgiveness. When given, it is done, regardless of the action of the person who is the intended receiver.
And how can it be rejected? It is not like a watch that one can return. Once it is given, the other person has no power over it.
I believe that once accepted, it's power is so great that it overwhelms people - you see this in the moment people are "born again" in the Christian churches all over the world. The relief they feel, the crying, the instinctive understanding that the weight of the world has been lifted from their shoulders and they are forgiven from all of their sins, this is the visible measure of the power of forgiveness. To know that you can be washed clean.
So I ask a question, rhetorical: Why do so many people not believe that the same release is possible by the GIVING of forgiveness?
I have felt it, through forgiveness. The best gift I ever received, and I gave it to myself, by forgiving someone else.
I think there are two different events being discussed here which I personally separate; first, the forgiveness of God to his people and second, the forgiveness of one person to the next. To me, these are very different events, and in some ways comparable, but in most ways, seem very different to me.
In the many fold, the major focus of forgiveness is to reset the balance. To give peace to both offended and offender, if you will. In the best world, it would lead to the establishment of love between two people, which is what God wants us to do - love one another.
In that vein, I do not see that we could, in good conscience, withhold forgiveness. I think that it is a sin against oneself, the offender, and God, to withhold that which God would ask us to do - love one another. Love forgives.
I know that through all that I have endured, the one and only thing that saved my soul, my heart, and my mind, was the forgiveness I gave my offenders. To this day, they do not understand it. At first, many thought me weak. Now, they see the power and strength it gave me.
We are human and forgiveness does not come easily to us. It is counterintuitive. It requires faith.
Although not the Christian doctrine, I thought I would add something from another line of thought.
SB
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IMHO, you are required to forgive even if someone does not ask. If you do not, then how can you "Love thy neighbor" when you harbor resentment and anger? What does God mean when He tells us to love thy neighbor? The 12 chapter of Mark speaks to this question... 28And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. When asked which commandment was the greatest Jesus summed all ten up into two commandments. 1) Love the Lord w/ all your heart, soul, mind, strength.. 2) Love your neighbor as yourself. When you look at the Ten commandments the first four speak to how we are to love God w/ all our hearts... Obey the first four commandments and you'll be loving God as he commands us to. Have no other gods before Him, don't take His name in vain, remember the Sabbath day, don't make images... When you look at the last six commandments you'll see that they pertain to how we are to behave towards our neighbors...do not steal, kill, bear false witness, ect... If we keep those last 6 commandments we'll be loving our neighbor as God commands us to. Loving our neighbor does not mean we must have warm mushy feelings for them. It's about keeping the Commandments. I agree w/ Mel, the Bible says we are required to forgive someone when they have repented of their wrong doing. ~ Marsh
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I find this conversation and differing opinions on Forgiveness, with or without the offenders repentence, to be interesting and I'd like to learn more about it.
I had never heard the premise we should require the wrong doer to ask for our forgiveness before giving it. I was always taught you forgive regardless. Resilient, and everyone - the "limitations" of the English language.... Please DEFINE what YOU mean when you say or think the word "forgiveness." There can be little effective communication without a precise definition of terms so that all are hearing and understanding the same thing. By way of example, when someone says the word "love," what do they mean by that word? "Love your neighbor as yourself." "Love your enemies." "Love the Lord thy God." "Husbands, love your wives." Etc. Phileo Agape Etc. Etc. Defining the issue (or the word) is essential and paramount to a coherent and substantive discussion. Does "forgiveness" also grant "expungement of all consequences" for what is being forgiven? When God forgives, He puts your sin as far away as the East is from the West. How far away do you, me, or anyone, put the sins of the one we "forgive" without true repentance on their part as part of the "process?" "Cheap" forgiveness is NOT what God is all about. Forgiveness for us came at the price of the life of Jesus Christ who PAID the price fully for all who accept Him as their personal Lord and Savior. There was nothing "free and without consequence" regarding what God chose in order to offer us reconciliation with Him. "SOMEONE" paid the price and then offers us the "Paid in Full" invoice with no requirement other than our accepting it or rejecting it. But it cost God everything. "Forgiveness" is by the Grace of God, but it was the most expensive "free gift" we could ever imagine. "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone opens the door I will come in...", but He will NOT break the door down and force His way in. He will NOT forgive the sins of those who reject Him, because God the Father established the ONE way whereby our sins against God CAN be forgiven. WE are to forgive as God has forgiven us. The parable of the unmerciful servant should be the "textbook" for all of us who are owed a "sin debt" by someone else....who asks us to be merciful to them as God has been merciful to us....in like manner. God bless.
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IMHO, God does pass out blanket forgiveness in grace, both common and divine. It is not a requirement to repent in order to be saved. - grindinfool, there are numerous verses that do state that repentence is required for forgiveness and forgiveness is required for salvation. If repentence were not required, then EVERYONE would be forgiven, and we know they are not. Mark 1:4 And so John came, baptizing in the desert region and preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.Luke 3:3 He went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.Matthew 21:32 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. Matthew 11:20-21 Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. 21"Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. Matthew 4:17 From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."Then Peter said to them,
Acts 2:38 "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."I agree except, I believe, repentance is what is initially performed at the "New Birth" of a believer. After that, we confess our sins and strive to achieve a "Christ Like" mind. Ultimately, this is not possible but should be our goal. As I said prior, salvation is possible through grace alone and not actions (other than belief in Christ as our Savior). Forgiveness in the biblical sense takes TWO people, a forgiver and a forgivee, because the purpose is reconciliation, not to make ourselves feel good and sanctimonious. It was not intended to be a SELFISH ACT.
We are not forgiven by God until we RECEIVE and accept his gift of forgiveness. The same applies to our brother.
This other view of forgiveness is really selfishness masquerading as idealism. The argument being, though you do not deserve to be forgiven, and though you may not even be sorry, I forgive you because *I* want to feel better. In other words, it's all about SELF, SELF, SELF, rather than our brother.
Forgiveness was not intended to be used selfishly or to be passed out like cheap candy to make us FEEL better. It was intended to be a beautiful gift that achieves a GODLY purpose. This does not.
We don't have to go through a pretend exercise of granting forgiveness to one who doesn't want or need our forgiveness in order to release anger. We can release anger and bitterness without pretending to forgive. Now, I do not believe that forgiveness takes two people (as in the reference to forgiving a dead person). Also, I do not believe that it is a pretend exercise but a necessary step in the process of self healing. We can "hate" the sin but need to forgive the individual. Otherwise, I believe, as humans our "hate" to the sin is reflected upon the individual and hence we can not "Love thy neighbor" but rather have hatred for him. Who are we to judge and individuals worth as this should be left up to the Lord. Ideally, we should follow Matthew 18:15-17 which I will not quote here for reasons of length. Marsh, If you have to love thy neighbor as thyself then can you feel less than good about yourself? Also, I am not trying to be unpleasant but I do find the Bible to be very interpretive and interesting. -Bryan
grindnfool
M-13 years
D-Day 10/26/06
Divorced 11.2007
DS-16, DD-9
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I was going to put the following in a separate thread, and may still do so. But since it seems so germaine to this thread I will post it here. Today we had a Communion Service in Church. It was one of the best, most reverent ones I've been priviledged to attend. I don't believe that I was there "by accident" either, but by the will of God. Then I came here and read this thread and got sort of an "aha!" moment. God ministered to me, to my wife who was brought to tears with the following conclusion to the service, and perhaps He meant it to minister to some of you also. The Christmas story was just the beginning. The following was the plan of God....for forgiveness. OH, TO SEE THE DAWN Of the darkest day: Christ on the road to Calvary. Tried by sinful men, Torn and beaten, then Nailed to a cross of wood. This, the power of the cross:
Christ became sin for us.
Took the blame, bore the wrath -
We stand forgiven at the cross.Oh, to see the pain Written on Your face, Bearing the awesome weight of sin. Every bitter thought, Every evil deed Crowning Your bloodstained brow. This, the power of the cross:
Christ became sin for us.
Took the blame, bore the wrath -
We stand forgiven at the cross.Now the daylight flees, Now the ground beneath Quakes as its Maker bows His head. Curtain torn in two, Dead are raised to life; ‘Finished!’ the victory cry. This, the power of the cross:
Christ became sin for us.
Took the blame, bore the wrath -
We stand forgiven at the cross.Oh, to see my name Written in the wounds, For through Your suffering I am free. Death is crushed to death, Life is mine to live, Won through Your selfless love. (Final chorus) [/i]This, the power of the cross: Son of God - slain for us. What a love! What a cost! We stand forgiven at the cross. [/i] Keith Getty & Stuart Townend Copyright © 2005 Thankyou Music If you'd like to hear the song, here is a link where I uploaded the song and you can hear it: To hear the song : The Power of the CrossScroll down, if needed, to FILES and click on the song. God bless.
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Now, I do not believe that forgiveness takes two people (as in the reference to forgiving a dead person). Also, I do not believe that it is a pretend exercise but a necessary step in the process of self healing. We can "hate" the sin but need to forgive the individual. Otherwise, I believe, as humans our "hate" to the sin is reflected upon the individual and hence we can not "Love thy neighbor" but rather have hatred for him. Who are we to judge and individuals worth as this should be left up to the Lord. Ideally, we should follow Matthew 18:15-17 which I will not quote here for reasons of length.
Marsh,
If you have to love thy neighbor as thyself then can you feel less than good about yourself? Bryan, As is said many times on these boards...Love is a choice not a feeling. We choose to love our neighbor, by obeying the commandments. Just as we don't want others killing us, stealing from us, bearing false witness against us, ect...we will choose not to do these things to others. I would argue that forgiveness is not what is needed in order to heal from a painful event. But, acceptance certainly is. A belief that somehow the pain you are experiencing (or experienced) from another's hand is meant to benefit you in some way. "All things work together for good to those who love Him." ~ Marsh
Last edited by Marshmallow; 12/31/06 06:15 PM.
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[Now, I do not believe that forgiveness takes two people (as in the reference to forgiving a dead person). Also, I do not believe that it is a pretend exercise but a necessary step in the process of self healing. We can "hate" the sin but need to forgive the individual. Otherwise, I believe, as humans our "hate" to the sin is reflected upon the individual and hence we can not "Love thy neighbor" but rather have hatred for him. Who are we to judge and individuals worth as this should be left up to the Lord. Ideally, we should follow Matthew 18:15-17 which I will not quote here for reasons of length. I WILL. "Peter came to Jesus and asked, 'Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?' Jesus answered, 'I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times (or seventy times seven).'" (Matthew 18:21-22) grindinfool, you quoted this verse to support your point that repentance is not required, however, you left out the scriptures just before it, which demolishes your point: Matthew 18:15-17 A Brother Who Sins Against You 15"If your brother sins against you,[a] go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.If cheap, unwarranted forgiveness is to be passed out then how do you reconcile his instruction to "treat him as a pagan or a tax collector?" That would make no sense if we are to pass out blanket forgiveness like cheap candy. Rather, it says if he refuses to listen you are to treat him as a pagan or a tax collector. Additionally, you are supposed to judge right from wrong; that is a commandment. Nowhere does it say ""hate" the sin but need to forgive the individual." If we are too ignorant to judge right from wrong, there would be nothing TO forgive in the first place and all the verses about "forgiveness" are for naught. If you can't judge your brother, what do you imagine you are commanded to REBUKE him for? I won't belabor the point of repentence because all anyone has to do is read the scripture to understand it is a requirement for forgiveness, and salvation comes once we are forgiven, not the other way around. You just simply have this all backwards. Also, I do not believe that it is a pretend exercise but a necessary step in the process of self healing. It is a pretend exercise if its only purpose is to make you feel good, rather than a gift of reconciliation with your brother. That is just selfishness masqueraded as idealism, I am afraid.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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