Ignoring sin has nothing to do with love, but with HATE. If you love your neighbor you don't ignore his sin, you rebuke and try to bring him to repentence. Addionally, we are SUPPOSED to hate sin.

A) If cheap, unwarranted forgiveness is to be passed out then how do you reconcile his instruction to "treat him as a pagan or a tax collector?"

I reconcile this by the fact that Jesus is instructing us to exile him from the church , similar to Plan B, in order to help our brother repent(In a manner of Christian love). Still, if the brother is firm in his faith in Jesus, can have salvation. This is because salvation is by GRACE and not human actions.

B)Additionally, you are supposed to judge right from wrong; that is a commandment.
10 Commandments:

I am the Lord your God
You shall have no other gods before Me
You shall not make for yourself an idol
You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God
Remember the Sabbath day, and keep it holy
Honor your father and your mother
You shall not murder
You shall not commit adultery
You shall not steal
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor
You shall not covet your neighbor's wife
You shall not covet your neighbor's house


There is no "Thou shall judge others"

C) I won't belabor the point of repentence because all anyone has to do is read the scripture to understand it is a requirement for forgiveness, and salvation comes once we are forgiven, not the other way around. You just simply have this all backwards.

I agree that repetance is necessary for the "New Birth" in Christ. However, we are all SINNERS and if we repent then that means we can not repeat the sin again (by definition). Hence, using this definition, almost no one would have salvation. Again it comes down to GRACE.

Therefore, after coming together with Christ we attempt to become "Christ Like" through guidance from the Holy Spirit and our new relationship with God.


D)If you can't judge your brother, what do you imagine you are commanded to REBUKE him for?

Good point. I do not have an answer off the top of my head so I will research and reply later.

But you refute your own point. If forgiveness is unconditional, as you aver, there would be no reason to repent. There would be no reason exile him from the church. Why would you exile a person who has been forgiven?? This makes no sense and simply refutes your assertion of unconditional forgiveness.


The scripture that you JUST POSTED and discussed above [Matthew 18:15-17] tells you to judge your brother. If you can't judge your brother, you can't very well "rebuke him when he sins against you," nor would you have grounds to exile him from church or treat him as a "pagan." You can't "show him his fault" if you don't judge. Let's look at it again
You are EXPECTED to judge. God commands you to "judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment." John 7:24


This makes no sense at all, so I don't know how to respond. One must repent in order to receive forgiveness and salvation just like the scripture says.

"Unfortunately today the English word offers a wrong sense, i.e. to ignore sin, to overlook sin or to have good feelings about the person who sins. This is not forgiveness but compromising tolerance; it is the fear of man that brings a snare; and it has made many of the present generation of professing Christians cowards and turncoats to the cause of Christ's banner against evil. They think when they ignore sin or overlook it, that they are being loving, when in reality they are unloving. To tolerate or ignore sin is not forgiveness and many times results in the ending of relationships or the shifting a close friendships to surface friendships. Worse it allows a professing believer to continue in sin, with all the destructive elements of that pursuit, introduces leaven into the local church, which begins to grow and weakens the resolve of the whole congregation."

Interesting link.

http://www.grace4u.org/Topical/Christian%20Forgiveness_DH.htm

"By the way, this is basically how I view Christ's death on behalf of the whole world, i.e., that He died to make possible that God would not call the sinner into immediate judgment when he sinned. Without the death of Christ, the justice of God and the holiness of God would have demanded the immediate execution of judgment upon the sinner. The issue is not eternal forgiveness but a temporal postponement or suspension of judgment."

A) Why would you exile a person who has been forgiven?? This makes no sense and simply refutes your assertion of unconditional forgiveness

You wouldn't exile someone who has been forgiven since they are living right with the Lord. You would exile someone who continued in their wayward manner in order to get them to repent. This is to keep them from becoming "lost". Agsin, salvation is based upon GRACE from God through Jesus.

B) This makes no sense at all, so I don't know how to respond. One must repent in order to receive forgiveness and salvation just like the scripture says.

In religious contexts repentance usually refers to repenting for a sin against God. It always includes an admission of guilt, and also includes at least one of: a solemn promise or resolve not to repeat the offense; an attempt to make restitution for the wrong, or in some way to reverse the harmful effects of the wrong where possible.

So, let's take lust for a woman for example. If I look at a woman and :
Appreciate her beauty
Wonder if I can date her
Think "I wish my wife looked like that"
Think I'd like to have SF with her
Approach her for a phone #
Take her out on a date
Have SF with her

Minding that I am married, which of these results in a sin I am liable to repent for?

If it is one that I can not promise to not do again, then am I "Lost" again?

C) I concur the judgment issue.

Again, if forgiveness is unconditional, there is NO NEED to repent. And if a person is forgiven no matter what, as you assert, there would be no call to exile the person.

First, nowhere do the Scriptures condition obtaining eternal salvation on our turning from our sins.

Second, "repentance" is actually a mistranslation of the Greek term metanoia. A better translation would be "a change of mind."

Third, the Bible speaks of three things which people need to change their minds about in order to be saved: oneself, Jesus Christ, and idols. One must see himself as a sinner and not self-righteous. One must see Jesus Christ as his Sinbearer and his only hope of eternal salvation. And, those who trust in idols to give them eternal life (more of a problem in the first century world than it is today) must stop trusting their eternal destiny on idols and instead place all of their trust upon Jesus Christ.

Hence forgiveness is free after laying the trust in our Lord Jesus Christ. We try to change behavior with exile from the church in order to keep the soul saved (not "Lost" from Jesus) and to not allow unrepentent sin to run ramapant thoughout the rest of the church body. The Devil eats at the fabric of society every day and not recognizing this and acting appropriately can lead to eternal damnation.(this is within ourselves as well as within the church)

One must REPENT, or turn from their sins in order to recieve forgiveness. I have shown you a multitude of scriptures that support that. We do not receive salvation unless we are FORGIVEN, we are not forgiven unless we repent.


huh? Bryan, this makes no sense if forgiveness is unconditional and repentence is not necessary as you claim. There is no such thing as "unrepentant sin" according to you. Forgiveness is unconditional so there is NO CAUSE to repent. The "soul could not be lost" if everyone is forgiven. If forgiveness is unconditional, there is no need to repent. If one is forgiven there is no need to exile.

You are not being consistent.

Of course forgiveness is free, but it is not without conditions. If it were handed out unconditionally like cheap candy, then EVERYONE would be forgiven. And we know they are not. A simple reading of the Bible tells us this.

If your definitions are correct then almost no one would attain salvation. We would not have enough knowledge, time, etc. to repent from all the sins we commit. In addition if our promise was to turn from the sin and we re-commit it, then we have lied as well.

I guess our fundamental difference between us is whether salvation is attained through:

Faith alone
or
Faith + Repentance

In either of our positions, we believe foregiveness is given from Jesus.

I hope you're wrong or I am in real trouble.
-Bryan

Maybe this article will clear things up for you:


Message No. 95013
Repentance
By P. G. Mathew, M.A., M.Div., Th.M.
Copyright © 1995 by P. G. Mathew

<snip>
Now that is a good biblical explanation of repentance. Now in the Old Testament the word that is used is shoov. When you read Psalm 80, in verses 3, 7 and 19, there is this prayer offered to God: Turn us, turn us, O God, that we may be saved, or, restore us, that we may be saved. In other words, the word shoov in Hebrew means to turn - to turn from sin and turn unto God. So the heart of repentance is turning. In the New Testament you have the word metanoia. Now that speaks about a radical revolutionary change in our thinking, resulting in a change of our understanding of reality, a change of values, a change of goals, a change of purpose and a change of relationships. In other words, repentance is a revolutionary idea.

Now, repentance is a necessary prerequisite for salvation. No person can be saved without true repentance. When you look at John the Baptist, the forerunner of Jesus Christ, and see how he preached, we read in Matthew 3:2, In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the desert of Judea and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand." When Jesus Christ began his ministry, we read in Matthew 4:17, From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near." And the apostles also preached repentance as a necessary condition for salvation. You find that particularly in the preaching of the apostles in the book of Acts. For example, in Acts 17:30 St. Paul preached, "In the past God overlooked such ignorance but now he commands all people everywhere to repent." And after his resurrection and glorification, Jesus Christ himself spoke to the churches in chapters 2 and 3 of the book of Revelation. In chapter 2, verse 5, we read, "Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first." Repent! Repent! Repent! Without repentance there cannot be any salvation. There cannot be any restoration of our relationship with God.
Repentance is part of the gospel. Jesus told his disciples after his resurrection in Luke 24:46-47 that they must preach repentance and forgiveness of sins to all the nations.

article con'd at: http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~gvcc/radio_trans/repent.html

I certainly don't think it expunges the consequences. I don't even necesissarily believe that reconcilliation and restoration are essential goals of forgiveness.

I do believe when I forgive someone I forgo my right to take vengeance on them but hand them over to God to deal with. They do suffer the consequences of their actions regardless of my forgiving them.

And speaking for myself, I never want to have a restoration of the relationship between me and my wife's OM. Never. Never Ever. And restoration of the relationship? Please.

Even if he becomes a bible believing Christian, fully repentant, I never want to see him ever again. But I can and will forgive him.

BK - I have been following this discussion with some interest, but have essentially refrained from posting for a variety of reasons.

So let me simply say that I am in total agreement with your above quoted post.

Let me also say that the "argument" and "discussion" of forgiveness remains a "problem" because the term(s) under discussion have NOT been defined as of yet.

The thread began as a question of "interest" in the general term as applied to other people and our relationship with them. It has since moved into a discussion of forgiveness as it related to Salvation and forgiveness as it relates to "brothers and sisters in Christ," as opposed to unbelievers.

So, with respect to forgiveness of sins, as it pertains to Christians (not to unbelievers), let me pose a question to Christians in my next post that I believe is fundamental to the issue.

God bless.

To my brothers and sisters in Christ -

It would appear that a fundamental question regarding Salvation needs to be posed that has a direct bearing on the discussion you are having regarding "forgiveness of sin."

Do you believe in Eternal Security for those who have been "born again?"

Let's try to answer that question first, before delving into issues about church discipline, etc.

So let me begin with my answer to the question.

For the record: I believe in the Eternal Security of the believer who has been "born again."

Just in case there is any confusion about the term "Eternal Security," let me state my definition of it. Once a person has truly accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior, they are "sealed" by the indwelling Holy Spirit forever, they cannot lose their salvation. Who decides if a person has been truly "born again?" God does, and does so by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in that person.

Can we "grieve the Holy Spirit" even after we have been sealed? Yes. Do we lose our salvation as a result? No.

Beyond that we would need to have a discussion of things like Calvinism versus Arminianism, but let's save that for another day.

God bless.

Well FH - you know that I do not believe in "once saved always saved" and in that respect Calvinism vs Arminianism is totally relevant but I would question why you consider this is pertinent on the discussion about forgiveness.

I certainly see a difference in us forgiving people and God forvining them. I believe we should forgive even as Christ has forgiven us and that is not contingent on the repentance or otherwise of the person who has offended us although that is nice.

I have also seen other posts from you where you indicate repentance is an issue of works and is not necessary for salvation. Have I put this correctly?

BigKahuna, there is a difference between forgiveness for sin and forgiveness for hurts. Sin is against God. If one wants to equate the two, then God’s standard for forgiveness would be the “measure” by which we would have to forgive human hurts against other humans. There IS only one standard by which God forgives us our sins, and that standard is Jesus Christ. ONLY by accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior can God, according to His will in the matter, forgive the sins of a person. If a person does NOT accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, their sins are not forgiven and eternal judgment remains on them.

BK, I do know you believe that a person can lose their salvation, and that is a key point in the discussion of forgiveness. If a person can lose God’s forgiveness of their sin, and Christ cannot be crucified a second, third, fourth, etc., time, there IS no guarantee of forgiveness of sin and Christ’s sacrifice was not sufficient. If Christ’s sacrifice was not sufficient, it was not needed either. Furthermore, if one could lose their salvation then they would also lose the indwelling Holy Spirit and they can NEVER be sure that their sins ARE forgiven. In other words God’s promise and Christ’s provision are not enough. It would require “faith + works,” but we’d never know when we’d “done enough works to earn forgiveness and salvation.”

If God were to take this position of “whoops, I lied, you are NOT saved because I remove your forgiveness every time you sin,” then He would cease to be God and would be little more, in this respect, than Man. But God does not lie. When God says “no one can snatch them out of my hand,” He MEANS no one, not ever. God will not allow it, cannot allow it, and still BE God.




“Jesus answered them, [color:"red"] “ It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”” [/color] (Luke 5:31-32, underlining added)

[color:"red"] “I tell you, whoever acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man will also acknowledge him before the angels of God. But he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God.” [/color] (Luke 12:8-9, underlining added)

“Jesus answered, [color:"red"] “Do you think that Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them – do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will perish.” (Luke 13: 2-5, underlining added)

“Jesus said to his disciples: [color:"red"] “Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin. So watch yourselves. If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.” [/color] (Luke 17:1-4, underlining and emphasis added)




BK, either you are misunderstanding what I have said or I have spoken without sufficient clarity. So to answer your question, no, you have not put this correctly in your statement that I quoted above.

Repentance is an integral part of salvation. Jesus calls us to repent, and if repentance were NOT needed, in any way, shape, or form, then Jesus would not have cited the need for repentance. But, as fallen sinners, we are incapable of repentance on our own accord. God performs a work in the hearts of the elect that enables them TO repent of sin and accept Jesus Christ. This is what is entailed in Jesus’ declaration about the “work of God” that we are to do. “Jesus answered, [color:"red"] “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” [/color] (John 6:29)

If one wants to “argue” that works are not needed, I would agree in so far as nothing we can DO can earn us forgiveness of sins and salvation. That is a gift of God. “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God -not by works, so that no one can boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9)

But “works,” including repentance of sins, are part of God’s plan for believers. “For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” (Ephesians 2:10, underlining and emphasis added) This what James was speaking about when he said; “What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such a faith save him? ….in the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith, I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds and I will show you my faith by what I do.” (James 2:14, 17-18)

So let’s not confuse the issue. When a brother or sister in Christ sins against you, they are called by God to REPENT of that sin, first to God, and then to the one(s) they sinned against because the Holy Spirit WILL convict them of their sin and bring them to repentance. Therefore, the one sinned against, also a brother or sister forgiven by, and in, Christ, is REQUIRED by God to forgive upon the utterance of that conviction and the motivation it causes TO repent (sorrow for, and turning away from). That is the POINT of the parable of the unmerciful servant….we are the Master’s (Christ) servants.

But make NO mistake about it when applying the term “forgiveness” to an unbeliever. God does NOT forgive their sins. He does NOT strike them down where they stand, but just as Adam and Eve DID “surely die,” they will face eternal judgment. Adam and Eve did NOT die as soon as they ate the forbidden fruit, but their “fate” was sealed without the intervention of God on their behalf. In that context, there was one tree that was forbidden to Adam and Eve. In the context of salvation, there is ONE “tree” that MUST be partaken of as the only way to receive forgiveness of sin and salvation, Jesus Christ. No matter how many trees Adam and Eve could eat from, there was one that they could not eat from “no matter what.” No matter what man chooses to believe or follow, there is ONLY one way that God has established to reconcile Man to Him, Jesus Christ.

Any other “attempt” to attain forgiveness of sin is futile and self-delusional. God established the only way to forgive sins and we are to model God to the world. That includes forgiveness of sin. If a person’s sin is NOT forgiven by God, we have NO authority to forgive them in place of God. HOW are we to know if God has forgiven the sins and we are to “do likewise?” God gave us the act of Repentance, and instructs us that when the sinner comes to us and repents, THEN we are to forgive.

Not holding grudges, not seeking vengeance, etc. is NOT forgiveness. They are acts of love, even when we’ve been abused. They are what God instructs us to do BECAUSE we are to model Christ and God has commanded us in this area. It models Christ and it protects us.


God bless.

ForeverHers - thanks for your reply and the thought you have put into it. I do appreciate it.


I absolutely 100% agree with this. Thank you. But a question - and I know how you will answer (I think) WHat about us forgiving hurts that other people (Like OM for instance) perpetrate on us? Is their repentance necessary for US to forgive - I don't think it is and we can look at scripture if you like.


That would not be my interpretation clearly. I don't at all believe we can "fall out" of salvation on a whim either but rather that if a person consistently and steadfastly keeps on sinning, refusing to come to repentance and submission to God that they can lose their salvation. Now you may say such a person was never saved - I say they were saved at one point but subsequently rejected Christ.

When we are Christians, the Holy Spirit bears wittness with our spirit that we are children of God. Not believing in OSAS does not mean I daily go around questioning if I am still saved when I sin.


Of course that would be ridiculous and is not what I am suggesting at all.


OK but God NEVER overides free will and God will never stop someone from removing themselves from His hand. They aren't snatched - they are in rebellion and refuse to be saved in effect.


OK I agree 100%


Again Agree. WOW.


OK but again here you are saying that "repentance" is works whereas before you said it is necessary for Salvation. Perhaps we are just at crossed purposes here. Jesus's work was sufficient on the cross. We are saved through grace by faith in Him. We need to accept Jesus's sacrifice for us and repent of our sins to be saved. Is that OK? That is my view.


OK. Agreed again. This is getting boring!


Agreed 100%


OK I disagree here. I do not believe if I forgive someone that God will not hold them accountable. I do not believe my forgiveness of them means God has forgiven them or that they are not still to experience the consequences of their sin. They will experience full consequences but **I** consider their "debt" of hurt to ME is forgiven. I forgive them. I do not hold it against them. I forsake MY right for compensation from them.


Agreed.

From Matthew 6


Mark 11


Luke 6


Luke 23


Forgiveness without repentance....

Colossians 3


I suspect FH we actually are not too far apart. Maybe just semantics.....

Your post is very beautiful. I specifically enjoyed the repentance posting showing how the Holy Spirit works through you to enable the saved to repent. This is what I was getting at before, but was in no way as clear as your eloquent post. I do, however, still differ on the point of forgiveness in the following points:


I, again, think forgiveness is necessary as in Matt 6:9-15.

"This, then, is how you should pray: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. "

and Eph 4:32

"Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as Christ God forgave you."

As you said, how can we know whether or not God has forgiven their sins. In that case, we should forgive in the same way we are forgiven by God.

I agree, BK. As I said earlier, a definition of terms is sorely needed in such a discusssion.

I also disagree with your contention that someone can lose their salvation. And this is a key doctinal difference. It will take some time to respond properly to this area of discussion, so I'll "shoot from the hip," because as you indicated, the Scripture needs to be the authority.

With respect to your quotations concering forgiving men, I don't disagree, but as you said, Scripture must be the "final word" and in that context I'd like to spend some time talking about the passages you quoted (yes, I am familiar with them) in the context of Scripture in total.

God bless.

Hello grindnfool, nice to make your acquaintance. Please feel free to jump in, ask questions, disagree with me, etc., at any time.




As I said to BK, it will take me some time to compose and type what I hope will be a cogent response, but for now let me say that I agree "in principle" with what you said in the above quotation.

"As you said, how can we know whether or not God has forgiven their sins."

Undeniably we cannot know with absolute certainty. Only God knows that. However, since a person's sins are ONLY forgiven in the "new creation" that God works in us when we become born again through Christ, we can "evaluate" (if one doesn't like the word "judge") the "likelihood" that someone did, in fact, experience a "saving faith." We do that evaluative "work" through two primary ways, the "works" that someone does that indicate a changed life (works that bring honor to God rather than selfish indulgence in the "world's ways," and the spoken (and/or written) word that shows a willingness to submit their lives to God's will, not their own.




Agreed. And God does not forgive sins without Christ. God is quite clear in Scripture that there will be many included with what are generally called "unbelievers" who will NOT be admitted into heaven because, despite all their "outward manifestations" of the "doing works of God," their hearts were NEVER surrendered to Christ and Christ NEVER KNEW them. If it helps to make this distinction, think of the many cults that "claim" to be "Christian," but that do NOT accept Jesus Christ as the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity. They may call him a "prophet," or a "good man," but NOT God incarnate. Denial of the diety of Christ is one way that we KNOW, beyond question, that someone is NOT saved and is NOT a Christian regardless of how they may protest that they are.

"Then Jesus cried out, [color:"red"] "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me. I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.

As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say." [/color] (John 12:44-50, underlining and emphasis added)

"He said to them, [color:"red"] "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.'

But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'

Then you will say, ' We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'

But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you came from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'

There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. People will come from the east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last."[/color] (Luke 13:22b-30, emphasis added)

[color:"red"]Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me you evildoers!"[/color] (Matthew 7:17-23, underlining and emphasis added)

"And with that he breathed on them and said, [color:"red"]"Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you not forgive them, they are not forgiven." [/color] (John 20:22-23, underlining and emphasis added)

Is Jesus's command, here, "in conflict" with the Lord's prayer, etc.? Or could it be that the forgiveness Jesus spoke of in those places applies to the repentant sinner, who, like the servant of the servant in the parable of the unmerciful servant, repented and sought forgiveness? Could it be that Jesus's plea from the Cross was for those who didn't know at the time what they were doing, but who He knew would come to a saving faith?

But we are NOT to seek vengeance against those who have sinned against us. That is not the same thing as "forgiving" them. That is trusting in God to be our Lord and is trusting God to KNOW, where we cannot, what WILL BE the final outcome in that person's life, belief in Christ or eternal damnation.

Can this issue of "forgiveness" be confusing? Yes, of course. That is why the entire context of Scripture must be applied and studied when seeking God's will and clarity in what is written in the Scripture. Why? Because the Scripture IS the Word of God, and not the "mere opinions and thoughts of some fallable men." Especially not when the Lord Himself speaks on the issue. (which is why I use red to illustrate the words of Jesus himself, as THE Master)

God bless.