Just a thought but you might still consider letting IL's know what is going on.

They should be concerned that their Grandchildren's family is being torn apart by their own daughters' irresponsible behavior. IMO it sure couldn't hurt to let anyone who may have influence upon her know about the situation.

Keep posting and asking questions. If you keep the thread active by asking questions you will get even more responses. If not it will become inactive.

You're getting great advice, SRT.

Looks like you have a good chance of getting full custody of your son.

Going dark, by working a Plan B, sounds like it might be just what your WW needs to wake her up.

After you speak to a lawyer, read up about what a Plan B letter should include.

~ Marsh

SRT - there must be some people she respects and listens to. Have you exposed the affair to them?

I see you said to Owl most people know - but are they the people who can influence her behaviour? That is the question.

I think she was closest to my family - mother...sister. She does not have a lot of friends outside of her current "partying" circle. She was in another circle of friends about a year ago who I liked much more...a mothers group...all had families and most were stable. Even then there was a lot of drama with them...something about getting a group of women together...gossip...this women does not like this women...so even that was not a great situation...

I can't see how to apply any pressure on her in that respect. She is really not close to her own family. The people who have the most influnce over her behavior is her new circle of friends "family" and they all have their own problems...single parents...divorce...drinking and substance abuse problems...depression...so I think she feels like she fits right in...misery loves company type thing. They have encouraged her all along to join their crowd...they definitely have the most influence.

Is there anything I should say to her? Pretty much up until now all I have been is too supportive but also I have made it clear that I do not accept what she is doing. In the last month or so I have given up trying to change her mind or make her see logic...that had the effect of pushing her further away and fighting anything I had to say. She definitely still has doubts as to what she is doing is the right thing but I do not know what else to do to get her to come back and rethink things...

I want to save my marriage but it feels so hopeless at times. At this point I feel like I just need to worry about myself and son and forget about her and whatever happens will happen.

Just expose to anyone and everyone. You never know who might put pressure on her to end the A.

If your ultimate goal is to save your marriage, I am concerned about going straight for the divorce. I think it sends the wrong message to the WS. You may tell her that you want to save your marriage, but then, "why are you divorcing me?" I think it sends mixed signals. I think a legal separation may have just as much teeth as a divorce, but shows your true intent is to spend the rest of your life with your WW if only she agrees to end her destructive behavior. That is just my two cents. Consult your lawyer, and he can advise you what to do. But be careful, lawyers are in the divorce business and tend to sell divorce. Make sure he is a real pitbull of an attorney, but does what you want him to do. I would cut off your WW, and fight for FULL custody and every last cent you can get from her regarless of how much it costs for the attorney if you are well off financially (as you say you are) and have the ultimate goal of saving your marriage.

Thinking about it some more...trying to see it from her perspective and a little more about what makes her tick...a little more background:

My wife has never really had a lot of friends...acceptance...she grew up in a very religious stifling background (pentacostal)...got married originally when she was 18 to escape her parents (mainly father...who was emotionally abusive to her and her mother). She divorced her first husband when she was 23...much the same circumstance as this time as her first husband seemed like a pretty normal well adjusted person who has since remarried and has a nice family. We met while she was in the process of the divorce...we almost immediately got serious...and mairred after a 2 year courtship. For the first year we were together she lived about 2 hours away so we only saw each other on weekends and I think that made things seem sort of ideal...a lot of anticipation...passion when we did get time together.

My wife definitely has self esteem issues. She has always thought she was ugly or did not fit in...even though she is actually stunningly beautiful. Very poor growing up and because of her religion I think she was teased a lot in school and definitely never was in the "in" crowd. She craves attention and getting it from men fuels her. I think she probably has a lot of deep seated issues regarding her upbringing that make her that way. She is not exceptionally intelligent...always struggled with school/learning. Her plus skills are socially she is a good talker...very friendly and she is a hard worker...dependable. I also think she is very charismatic...the kind of person people are drawn too in a crowd...someone you instinctively want to know. I see now it was a mistake not to have her seek counseling a long time ago. It is something I think about today that maybe I should try and convince her to seek counseling now and maybe even offer to pay for it. I think she may be addicted to the high of initial romance/attraction...I think it makes her feel alive. She definitely draws her self esteem from others view of her. I think with her new circle of friends she feels she is now in the "in" corwd and it feels great for now.

I know right now (I had read her journal when I was first suspected the affair and was searching for proof)...that she feels she is screwed up/broken...does not feel like she can love. Feels I took her for granted. She does not feel like she is a good parent. Is torn between me and OM...does not want to hurt either. She feels addicted to her new lifestyle...craves the attention she is getting...wants even more attention from more men...she regrets that she went down this path but does not know how to turn back because it feels too good. Feels like she just wants to be a "player" and fill her emotional needs by just flirting with a lot of people...feels alive on this new path. She is very fearful of losing this new found alive feeling...I think this is the main reason she does not want to work on the marriage...I think she was depressed for the past 2 years and does not want to go back to that. She does not want to answer to anybody and just do as she pleases.

I do not think she has ever had this in her life...never time on her own. Never really partied or hung out in the years where she should have been doing that 18-25. I think emotionally in a lot of ways she is still an adolescent. I am not sure...but maybe she just really needs to do what she is doing? Unfortunately I feel it is kind of too late to be doing this as she now has a child and a good husband.

Will post a little background on myself I suppose in a little bit...got to get some work done...

Jim, I don't agree in his case that it sends the wrong message. I think it sends exactly the right message and is the only message she will pay attention to. This has gone well beyond an affair and has evolved into a lifestyle. He is wise to take a hard look at divorce and I suspect that if anything can possibly save his marriage, it would be this. His ultimate goal is really to move on unless his W shows remarkable change.

Counseling usually has very little effect on someone in an affair and who is unwilling to change. Your W is perfectly happy with the current set up so she would have no reason to change.

I am not suggesting counseling regarding the affair. What I regret is I have always kind of known she has some deep issues regarding her childhood and her father. I always knew she had self esteem issues. It was always amazing to me that she thought she was ugly and people didn't like her. When in reality that could not be further from the truth. She has always felt like she was on the outside looking in. I think she should have been working on these issues long ago...I guess I was in a little bit of a fog as I knew she was attractive and I tried to give her a lot of compliments/reassurance...but it was obviously not enough.

ML,

I understand what you are saying, but I would just plop down $185 to counsel with Steve Harley to work out all the details of the plan if my ultimate goal was to save my marriage. I think that would be a sound investment.

If you are financially comfortable, I would DEFINITELY counsel with SH before I decided on a final course of action. Set up an appointment today.

Jim, his immediate goal is to protect himself and I think he feels pretty confident in his plan.[I think it is a good plan] If his wife comes around, then she comes around. Divorces take time, and his wife will have plenty of opportunity to come around if she chooses. In the meantime, he will be legally protected. He can't lose by filing for a divorce, and again I suspect it is the only thing that will wake her up.

If I were him, I would save the $185, and just call Dr. Harley directly on his radio show today. No charge at all!

well this is a very tiny light in the attic of a dark house ... but a light no less

no conversation
no "just the right words"
is going to turn her

we know what will turn her around

it is simple

PAIN is what will get her attention

she needs to suffer the PAIN of living the party-girl life without you and your son as a sometimes life preserver

she needs PAIN

you do not have to supply the PAIN (she will do this herself)

you only need to step away while she does this

an epiphany awaits your WW ... only PAIN will draw her attention

step out of the way
let her ephiphany of PAIN strike

do not be there to catch her
as a good husband would

you have been her light while her own light goes out

once she loses you & your light

her own darkness will lead her to her light ... of salvation

but while she is standing in your light ... she does not realize how dark she has become

hard as it is
step aside

Pep

one of the most difficult things I had to do as a mother

was to step aside

allow our 18 year old son to be

HOMELESS

for a few nights

because he was kicked out of his sober-living house for drinking

our son assumed we would , yet again, bail him out and let him return home

we did not

stepping aside as someone you love self-destructs is heartbreaking

but necessary sometimes

TODAY ... our son is 20, working full time, living independently (about a mile from us ... so there is still a very deep connection) ...

that time we turned him out ... we all suffered

but it was THAT PAIN that brought our son back into the light

and it is that experience which motivates me to give some of the opinions I give today


Pep

Kind of funny...I read others situations and I see exactly the same patterns over and over. I read WaltW and basically I could just copy and paste his situation and it would be mine. The WW say the same things, same excuses, rewriting history, lies, denials, same patterns. He went through almost exactly the same timeline...just sad.

Just wanted to say again I appreciate everyones advice...I will take it to heart. I have not spoke to my W in 3 days...which is unusual. I decided I will no longer make the effort to contact her. I am going to make a point to stop supporting her...it is a fine line because I want to keep her fully in her fantasyworld while I explore my legal options but I will pull back some so she can feel some of the effect.

Mel-

Wouldn't a complete financial/legal seperation along with a black hole dark plan B be a better route in this case?

If his goal is saving his marriage, divorce should be the LAST option. What's the mantra we've heard here before? "I don't do divorce, I do marriage"?

Not completely disagreeing here with you...she needs to feel the affects of her behavior NOW. And that seems to be the best reason to go with plan D...but...plan D is far more costly, and the affect of a LSA and black hole dark plan B would have the same affect, along with a lower cost.

Just my thoughts...I see your point, I'm just curious why you wouldn't opt for 'DARK PLAN B' first?

Owl,

That is why I asked WWSHD (what would Steve Harley do). I would like him to get some counseling and really think about it for a while instead of posting on here one day, and filing for divorce the next. I thought he said his ultimate goal was for a loving, marital relationship with his W. What is his PLAN? I understand how divorcing her would kill her fantasy world, but I don't know how that will draw her back to him after the affair is over.

Owl,

I think his primary concern right now is to legally solidify custody of his son and if the WW gets it along the way then M can be talked about. I know in my case I would love to have done a dark plan B but due to the legalities of my situation I knew that I would never have a better chance at full custody of our son than I did at the moment I filed for D. This was my deciding factor regarding Plan B vs. Plan D at the time.

Hope-

What legalities would have prevented you from a dark plan B?

Even when there are kids involved, we've seen people here do a stellar plan B in which the WS was kept mega-dark...it just requires a lot more work and planning to execute. There aren't any laws regarding using a 3rd person intermediary when dealing with interaction with your spouse that I'm aware of...nor anything that would at least allow you to prohibit/ignore ANY kind of communication except for the barest minimum needed to ensure the kid's safetey and welfare.

Not challenging you...there may be other legalities that I'm not aware of...but these are the only things I could think of.

It just seems to me that if his goal is marital recovery and he wants to 'keep' his wife, then divorce should be the LAST step...after everything else has failed.

I think the only way he can save his marriage is if he files for D, because that is the only thing that will wake her up. This is not just an affair, but a destructive lifestyle. A LSA only says that their seperation, which she LIKES, is legal but he will still be there for her. That is the EXACT WRONG message to send this W. He needs to send her a message that he is moving on and leave it up to her to stop that train. He can't lose with that strategy.

I heard Dr. Harley give this EXACT same advice to a couple who had been married for 30 years. The W was in numerous affairs because she had adopted a partying LIFESTYLE. As in this case, the H was the enabler. Dr. Harley told him to file for D and to seperate from her because it might wake her up. If it didn't, then he would have nothing to lose anyway.

This is where I think he is at. A divorce can always be stopped, and this will send the message that she will lose her support unless she changes. In the meantime, he will be protected financially.

He doesn't have to get counseling from Steve Harley. He can call Dr. Harley for free RIGHT NOW.

Why would an LSA say that he needs to still 'be there for her'?

I'm asking...I've never been down that path myself.

Why would an uber dark plan B not have the same affect on her as starting divorce proceedings? Plan B can have the same 'impact' on a person regardless of if it's a 'lifestyle' or an affair. It still sends the message that until they end the negative behaviors, there will be no support net from the BS. Make any sense?

It takes a longer time to get a divorce into effect...plan B can be initiated on a much shorter time schedule. Now, I can see where it may take her a little longer to realize he's serious, but even a week's worth of TOTAL shutout should demonstrate that.

I really just want to understand why going to a divorce without going through plan B first is a better idea in this case. That's the purpose behind all my questions.

And...I totally agree with the concept of him calling the radio show for some advice...that's the best possible way to get a plan started.