Ok, Marsh, just getting back to you on this now...


Thanks for pointing that out. I'll try not to DJ myself anymore. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />



Many good questions here ~ still not sure why my HEAD knows it wasn't about me, but my heart can't catch up to that, not yet anyways...

I'm not sure if he's REALLY justifying and blaming, but it sure FEELS that way.

Now, Marsh, from YOUR point of view, being the FWS, can you at all see why a BS would feel this way? That what it feels like is we (I) weren't "good enough" to be faithful to. I wasn't important enough, I wasn't special enough to stay true to our wedding vows.

I know I can't help my feelings, but this is how his A has made me feel. It's a pretty crummy feeling, since marriage, to me, has always been the backbone of everything I am. And that's how I felt about my H ~ that he was certainly "good enough" to be faithful to, that our wedding vows really were the only real promise/s I had to keep.



Wow, that sure is a different spin on it. One that I definitely didn't think of. I'll have to ask MFsFWH how he feels about this. I'm gonna guess maybe a little bit of both....but not sure.

Yup. One thing he's said a few times is that he didn't think I loved or cared about him. Now that you say that, it sounds like a self-esteem issue. I'm his wife! He was my first "real love"! Of course I love/d AND care/d about him!! If he EVER acted like he wanted to do something with me, or even just be with me, I was all over it. I mean, honestly, I believe even he will admit, I don't know that I've ever turned the man down on anything he's ever offered me ~ from dates, to sex, to spending time together, to...whatever. So it I shake and scratch my head when he says this. It's a tough one for me.

Now, to be honest with you, I've said the same thing to HIM ~ and I believe he finally sees how I felt this way: that for years and years, the only plans he ever made were for himself. If we ever did stuff together, it was me who suggested it, asked him, who planned it, got the babysitter, etc. I rarely, if ever, made plans for myself that did not include him, because I DID love him and want to spend time with him.

But then we get into Independant Behaviors, RC, and other issues that we never realized were so important. I am in total agreement with these concepts now...not sure if H has read up on them yet.


Yes, I guess I am, but more than that I'm having a hard time acknowledging that I wasn't too good at it while seeing that my lack of Admiration isn't to blame for his A.

Now we get into another issue though ~ the one thing he really wanted/needed to/allowed OW to Admire him for was his marathon running ~ and even though I supported him the best I could in it (was at the finish line for ALL of his races, etc.), it WAS hard for me to give true admiration over it because I knew beyond the shadow of a doubt that it was building a huge wall in our marriage, our relationship, and our family. So I was resentful that he continually chose running over me, our M and our family. (see that thread I told you about if you want more details).



Ok, I will. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hi Marsh,
Thought I would pop back in & give an update to my situation.

WH had his first appt. with IC on Tuesday. He seemed to be in a pretty good mood when he returned home. That night at dinner he mentioned that he & IC were going to use next week's MC appt. to continue his IC. I joked with him & said, "couldn't you fit it all into one session?" he/he. He & MC discussed AD & Sleep Meds. MC is suppose to call our Dr. & get a prescription for them.

He remains in DS bedroom. Sometimes with the door closed & other times open. I often wonder if when the door is open, does he want me to enter.

The other night I went up & opened the door & asked him if he thought things were progressing. He said yes, but very slow. He said that he had a pretty good session with MC & thought that he was much better than IC he had been using months ago. I think that this is positive & I hold hope that it will turn things around for the better.

I closed the door & got partial way down the stairs & decided that I needed to ask about NC. I felt that his "happy moods" lately may be an indication that there was contact. He responded "no contact". I believe him.

Last night a girlfriend & I went out for drinks. She encouraged me to try to force some intimacy on him. After a few drinks in me I finally got the courage to enter his room when I got home. Jumped in the bed & asked him to make room for me! he/he I proceeded to just lightly massage his belly; he did responded with "please don't", but continued to allow me to do it. That took place for about 1/2 hour & after a period of time, things were going a way that he didn't feel comfortable with, so he did ask me to "please stop & that he wasn't ready yet". I told him that was fine & that I wasn't look for S. I asked him how it felt & he said "good". I left him with a kiss goodnight, an "I love you" & also...we can have this again, you just need to take a step for me.

He responed with, "I just took a step". I told him he needs to make the step on his own & that he followed my step.

This morning was a little awkward but I do think that some progress did take place. I'll be wearing a bow tonight! he/he

I think I'll take a break for a bit. It was a huge step for both of us.

Any thoughts?
Love K

No, they don't seem trival to me at all. I sympathize w/ your situation, but since MF is what Mimi calls, "the walking wounded" I'd have to suggest you try to get your EN's for admiration met from different activities.

~ Marsh

Hi MF!



I think the reason you don't believe the A wasn't about you, is b/c you believe negative things about yourself, and you're using the A to support those beliefs.

For example, if you believe that you are unlovable, then you will use the A as 'proof' that you are.

OTOH, if you believe that God makes no junk, and that you are wonderfully made, then anything negative that happens in your life you will not attribute to a flaw in yourself. You will look for another explanation.




I understand your feelings. They are perfectly reasonable.

But, I think if you would refrain from DJing yourself or someone else you will be able to eliminate alot of your emotional pain.

It's the DJ's that are hurting you the most. I know, b/c they were killing me. They were part of the reason I had the A. Giving them up has been life altering for me.

Truly.



I wouldn't define it as spin.

Becca, said she believed she didn't deserve to ask for a second chance after what she had done. Can't you see the guilt there?

I had tons of it.

It was all I could feel for quite a while. I wouldn't have been able to put up a fight. I was too overwhelmed w/ it.



His A wasn't about your not meeting his EN for admiration through his running.

That may be the only thing he can point to that he feels you could improve upon, but THAT wasn't the reason for his A.

He has issues inside himself that he needs to straighten out. He thought he could reach through someone else to do it, but he's learned how foolish that was.

He's got alot of work to do.

You have alot of healing to do.



Awesomeness!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

~ Marsh

Hi Karen!



I was just going to ask you for one!



Terrific!!!

Ummm, but I just have to let you know that one of the side effects of using AD's is a drop in sexual desire. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />



I agree. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



Good. I'm glad you asked.



Next time take HIM out and get HIM tipsy/drunk and then see what might play out. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />



LOL

A bow, huh? Oh my! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I'm glad you're pushing it a little.

Seems to me he may need alot of pushing. LOL

~ Marsh

karen
not to go off topic here but i see you are from upstate ny like me.. may i ask what part??

mlhb

mlhb - 35miles west of Albany. You?

Marsh,
Ok, here's the latest...thought I would step out of the box, not a bow, but certainly something more than I would have ever expected from myself. I put on a skimpy nighty & got ready for my WH to come home today, Sunday. Of course, he comes upstairs & doesn't see me so he comes back down. I hear the chair pull out, so I know now that he is just waiting for me to surface.

I wait a bit & then hear the laptop boot up & now I know for sure that he isn't coming to find me a 2nd time. I come down in the beautiful pink nightly that I received as a wedding gift over 3 years ago, brand new. I stand in the door way to the kitchen, his back to me & say hello. After a few seconds he turns around & says..."I'm not ready" "You keep pushing me!". I try to compose myself & say, "I'm pushing my own H". I went back upstairs. Of course, changed into the trusty jeans & watched a little tv. By the way...the baby is sleeping; it never works out like that.

He also tells me that he has a lot of problems he is trying to deal with. Here is my thought...I'm done. I'm here physically but my mental state needs to take a break. I will continue the best Plan A I can & hope that his IC will kick in & he will see what he is about to loose.

It has been 13 months w/o any intimacy, I'm missing something and I'm not even sure if it's him anymore. My eyes well up with tears when I think about this whole year+ and I just don't know where there is anymore strength.

After that whole situation, he was certainly trying to be my "best friend". He was making silly conversation, even put on the sleep clothes that I bought him for Xmas. Those sleep clothes have been on the dresser still in the package from Xmas. I did ask him a couple of weeks ago why he wasn't wearing them & he said b/c he was too lazy to go up stairs & change from his work clothes prior to going to sleep. So I know he was trying to please me, as little as it seems, but it just isn't enough anymore.

Funny thing...I knew when he said he was going up to change that he would come back in the sleep clothes. That I guess is how I know him so well. I doubted the sexy nighty but I figured, "why not", at least he allowed us to move a little closer the other evening.

Your thoughts on this one! He is a tough one, that is for sure! Maybe it's the challenge? Who knows!
Love K

Talk to him Karen.

Tell him exactly how you feel.

But do it in a "drive by way."

Like this...."It's been over a year since I've been made love to, I feel such sadness over it." Don't wait for a response. Then follow it up by, "Would you like more coffee?" Or "What's on TV tonight?" Or "I think I'll go get the mail."

You're just sharing w/ him your thoughts and feelings. You aren't looking for a response from him...only share your feelings w/ him.

The "drive by way" won't put any pressure on him. And it removes all expectations from you.

Tell him how you feel.

((((Karen))))

~ Love ya, Marsh

Hi Marsh,
Thanks for popping into assist me. He KNOW exactly how I feel; my gosh he was out running around like a high school kid & I was home with our premature child. I will take your advice & do a drive by, thanks!

Tonight was almost like he is really trying to make up for his misbehavior last night. He is back into his sleep clothes & even took a shower; he doesn't usually do that. He has been working inside & really doesn't get dirty so his showers are usually only in the a.m. Maybe he had a afternoon delite?! Only kidding!

Can I be done with the emotional piece of this for awhile? I think that I get more fuel with him when I "tune him" out a bit. He seems to try harder then! If you can agree with me I think that I will take this approach for a bit.

He has his IC on Wednesday this week. I am hopeful that this will be a "big" day for him & hopefully he will begin to see the light. If not, I'm going to find a really nice guy & just have a little fun for the afternoon! he/he Only kidding! My heart still belongs to my WH & that is where I am right now; just a little day dreaming!

Thanks for everything Marsh. Love K

Hi Karen:
I thought I could just give an update on your threat and hope you don't mind...since our situation seems to progress very similarly...
This weekend, I rented a movie called "faithless". It's about adultery on people's emotions. Very good movie and it got my H to think a lot...
I had a breakdown on Saturday night. Crying uncontrolably. H comforted me for the first time wihtout much anger. He said: what's wrong, please don't scare me...
I ended up getting calmer and talked a lot about. I used calm voice, but I could tell that he didn't want to hear any R talks, not ready yet and he didn't respond much.
He did tell me that he's feeling pressured. Just like your H.
Next morning after my explosion, I asked him to take care of the kids more and I needed time to think more about our future. I don't know why I said that, but I just felt that it's too much for me to handle, his lack of affection and true intimacy the whole time...He did take care of the kids more and then I got called on to do some extra work ( I'm a computer programmer). I went to my work place and get the bug fixed. He took the kids to shop some food. I called and suggested to meet for lunch and we had a great lunch together. I felt the most in months: H was attentive and talked softly. He had eye contact with me and those were with a lot of care ( or love ) I don't know. We talked about our coming vacation with friends, etc. That night he made us a great dinner!! We enjoyed a lot together and also talked a lot...
Night came and we felt awkward again. I promised myself not to pick up and R talks that night and just let things go slower. But after we started to talk about the movie, I felt we were in a separate page again...He sounded angry again listening to me talking about my view and my feelings...But I could almost feel that he was trying his best to make it a little easier for me...
Next morning I felt relieved for whatever reason. Maybe I felt that all the "educaton" my talk and the movie we watched were going to stick with him a little and deep down he was figuring things out a bit...Just those gut feeling that he was getting a little bit out of the fog...
Then the next night ( last night ), I tried my best not to push. I used a big body pillow betweeen him and me and I took some sleeping aids to fall asleep faster. We talked about kids a little and the talk went well. I could feel that he was relaxed and he ached for something but I just let it go...I didn't push anything...
I'm also wondering why it's so hard for those guys to turn around...Need to run to an appointment, will come back later.
Karen, just want to let you know you are not alone in this battle and we won't give up, ok?

LA

Hi Karen!


It isn't for HIM that you should say how you feel. It's for YOU. Stating your feelings helps lesson them.



How often does he go?

Once a week?

~ Marsh

LA - We really need to talk more, that's for sure! I responded to your thread over the weekend but I didn't see that you had been back there. We can talk here if you want; you say the word! Thx K

Marsh - His 1st IC in a long time was last week with our MC. Today was supposed to be the "alternate" MC appt but WH asked if he could take it for another IC with MC. I kidded with him & said "oh, an hour wasn't enough time, (LOL)", he agreed & chuckled. So in answer to your question, 2 weeks in a row right now. Also, I was wondering...since he really doesn't want to be in MC & it's obvious, I saw it & MC agreed as well, should I just tell him to continue with our appt as IC & when he feels he is ready to work on our M, we can take one of his IC for a MC? That was something I have been toying with, your thoughts?!

This morning I just don't like him. I barely could wait long enough downstairs b/f he came down to say goodbye to him. I really wanted to just leave & not kiss him goodbye. Why can he call me once a day, hug & kiss me goodbye & goodnight...BUT not be able to say "I love you", sleep in our bed, show a LITTLE affection...something! That is another reason why I think it would be better for MC if he initiates it this time & then the pressure will all be on him to carry!?

Thx Marsh. Love K

Hi Marsh~


Yes, you're probably right, I do believe some negative things about myself. Don't we all?

Are they good enough "reasons" for him to have justified an A? Of course not, NO reason will ever justify it; my head knows that, my heart still aches, I still sometimes feel that there was something wrong with me ~ not sure why that is. It's something I'm still working on but not there yet.


Can you give me some clear examples of how I am DJing myself? I'm having a hard time seeing it. It's just the way I feel. Is that a DJ?



Yes, now that you have explained it I can see it. Guess it's kinda hard because I am in so much pain myself to see how the guilt could really be eating him up. He doesn't talk much about that, so it's hard for me to really understand.



Yes, again, my head knows that, but while he was all fogged out after dday, he repeatedly brought this up. That finally someone "understood" him ~ that he felt "accepted" for who he was.

I know in my mind that running is not what made him "who he was" ~ I knew him for a long, long time before he started running. And to me those were our best years ~ when he wasn't so focused on running and himself, and was a great husband and father.

He does thrive on Admiration though, and I need to figure out how to better meet that need for him. It's a tough one for me, especially because it's not one of my EN's. I need to figure that out.



Yep, we both do. We have avoided a lot of this recovery stuff for a while because we are so focused on this possible move. While the break from all of this cr** has been nice, I have a fear that this will all just get swept under the rug ~ and I am NOT ok with that. We have to get back to it somehow.

We're off to NY tomorrow, please pray for us!

~MF

I'm not looking for a marathon here but I really need more than what my WH is giving me.

He says that he is taking steps! Not in my mind, or at least not big enough to notice. He knows my EN & still has yet to fulfill them.

Our Anniversary was last Friday...not even an "I love you"! WHY? Why is it so hard for me to give me what he KNOWS that I really need? He says he can't do things or say things just b/c I want him to, he needs to feel it & then he will do it!

I asked him last night if he was happy that I have stayed & want to support him and he said "yes". I said...why don't you tell me that once in a while & he said, "I'm not going to do things just b/c you want me to, I have to feel it", I say "you just said that you felt it", "did you lie to me?", he says "no", but "I'm not going to do things just b/c you want me to"! Babble, babble, babble! You cannot even reason with him, it's CRAZY!

He also said that he was going to IC & going on AD, my response..."that's b/c you wanted to do that, not b/c I asked you to"...although I really wanted him to do both, he came out on his own. So I say "those are more things that ***** (WH) wants, not for me, just for WH; it's all about what my WH wants, not anything for anyone else! It's all about him!, has been for the last year & half.

I love my WH & I hate him also!

He came home on our anniversary & cleaned out the garage so that I didn't have to squeeze into my car. He says that is a step, I told him, "yes it is but it's more like a "material" step...anyone could have done that, I could have if I wanted to bad enough", "what I need from you is an emotional step, give me something to hit my heart, tell me something, show me something!" He knows what I need & knows what I want but still can't seem to do it. Do you think that he is just trying to push me away? Do you think that maybe he is just so stubborn that he can't bring himself to "fix" me!

If this is withdrawals, it's now been almost 5 months with approx. 3 contacts on his part, the last one the 1st week of Nov. Am I still rushing?

What should I do?

Thx K

Hi Karen!

I'm sorry you had such a disappointing anniversary. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Your H still has a ways to go before he "gets" what he's done and is continuing to do. Hopefully IC will help him move along at a quicker pace then he has been moving.

I feel your frustration, Karen, I really do. But, I don't think you should look at his choice not to meet your needs as a statement that he doesn't love you.

His cleaning the garage was his way of saying "I love you, Karen." I know it wasn't your "love language" but it was his.


No, I don't.



First of all there's nothing about you that needs "fixing". You aren't broken, but your LB is empty.

Karen, try to do things for yourself. Things that will make yourself feel good about you. You're going to have to fill your own LB while you wait for your H to unravel some of this crap in his head in IC.

Seriously, Karen, what kinds of things can you do for yourself?

~ Marsh

Marsh,
Again, thanks! Ya know I don't really know what makes me tick! I don't know what would really make me fill my own LB. I am so used to "us" doing things together that I'm not sure if I ever had anything that would make me go nuts! I thought about it ever since I got your response & I still do not have a clue. I tried going to the hair salon & getting a color, wax & cut, but that was over in about 2 hours!, what do I do now? LOL

I love spending time home with the kids. I actually just signed up the baby in swimming classes but they do not begin until March...what do I do until then? he/he

You are sooo right about the LB and a lot of the answers that you give me, it's a little scary. I guess I already know the answers, I'm just thankful that you confirm them for me. I guess I just feel broken, broken hearted I guess. That is why I refer to myself as needing to be fixed. Maybe I have always relied on someone, my XH & my WH to fill my LB and now that I am left alone, I'm not sure what to do. I have no hobbies, I really don't enjoy going out (that means I have to be up past 9 p.m.)! he/he I REALLY enjoy keeping my family & my house "up to par"; that is what is gratifying to me! I enjoy having dinner parties, etc., but have reframed from them since I really don't feel "in the mood".

I hope you are right about the IC & that it will help him to get through all of this crap! I don't cry often but boy when I do, it's certainly an eye opener to my pain!

Thanks again Marsh. Love K