W has always been gregarious (sp). talked to anyone about anything. I always told her she could talk to a light pole and it would probably have a conversation with her.

Anyway she just never realized when he started saying inappropriate things to her that she should say to him to stop. I believe he did use the old my marriage is terrible etc. to try to win the sympathy hand. Later on he changed tactics though as she would never would talk bad about me so she says. It became more him trying to be like me to her. She said how he reminded her of me in his actions etc. things he would say and do. Wierd. WE are nothing alike in ANY WAY.

More likely that he reminded her of you in your early days, when you were still making huge efforts to please her.

Having a man almost worship you can be very intoxicating to a female.

Maybe so. She says that was very likely the case. She says that she was always wishing it had been me. So here I am again the one that let her down when she needed me and someone else steps in to fill those EN's UGH!!!

Oh well! We are doing all that now!!!!!!!

You are blaming yourself for something that happens naturally in all marriages. It is normal to gear down a bit after years of being with the same partner.

I think we need more pre-marriage counseling to prepare for what happens after the wedding. People are so unrealistic.

Yep! I think HNHN should be also be the marriage handbook.

Thought I'd catch up on this post. I was out of town for a few days.

FLTH - My FWW did not move back home yet. Her plans were delayed for a week, then delayed for another week. The latest ETA is Friday. We'll see.

Believer - I know full understanding is not possible. Its more the attempt to understand. More on that below.

JKG - Wow, thrown in the towel, pulled it back, thrown it in. Go along to get along so to speak. I'm not teasing, I just feel the same way sometimes.

It got me thinking about how I am now no longer able to talk to my FWW about how I feel about something.

I spent the first 13 years of my M telling my wife about how I feel about something. Offering suggestions on what she could do to help. I'm sure I'll get some education from someone about how I did that wrong, but originally it was simple things. Like "Dear Wife, I get stressed out when I see you are bouncing checks. It would decrease some of my stress if you would quit doing that". But it got worse over time, as things like this would keep happening. Each time I would try to explain to my wife my reasons for not being happy with a situation. I would use analogies, more reasons, etc. Heck I would try a fable if I thought it would work. I spent the majority of the time thinking my FWW just didn't understand how important these things were.

After D-Day, my FWW explains to me that I nag to much, that I should just let her do things her way, that I didn't respect that she had a different way of doing things.

Then I read a site like MB, that explains to me that maybe I'm being to controlling, people don't like to be educated, etc.

So I try to change and be a better person. No more nagging, etc. I basically bit my tounge on things. You know what, nothing changed.

Finally it dawned on me. It wasn't that my FWW didn't understand, as I orginally thought for 13 years. It wasn't my delivery or style, as I thought for the next 1.5 years. It was that my FWW didn't care. I should rephrase. It was that she didn't care enough. She cared, as long as that item could be addressed in the time left over from the other things she cared about more. The odd thing is, that she does not think this is the case.

She has depriortized me in her actions, while prioritizing me in her words and feelings. She means to care for my feelings, she feels bad when she doesn't, so to her it means she is prioritizing my feelings. But her actions conflict. When it gets to crunch time, she chooses other things over my feelings. Why? Because she has absolute confidence in me being able to stuff that down and keep going. I have proven that to her. She has no such confidence in the other things providing her that freedom.

Her coming home is an example of this. She had to delay because she had to get something else done for work. She really wanted to come home, she feels bad about not doing it, but work had to get down. She feels that if priortized me over work, she would get fired, and she has no evidence to the contrary. But she is quite certain that I'll be okay with another week or two delay. But each moments delay slices away another part of me. It moves me closer to the brink of just saying, aw heck, forget it. The irony is if I did that, I'm quite sure she would change her plans and come home. But I don't want to live a life like that. Accept, accept, accept, breaking point, threaten D, get my way, repeat. (Believer this is what I mean by empathy, my FWW views this as, why are you upset, I'm only delaying my return by a few days, I view it as you've been gone almost 2 years).

Anyway, my point is, I don't know how to talk to her about this. Essentially, when I bring up that I feel deprioritized, disrespected, etc. My FWW says its not true, she's sorry that I feel that way, but she did not mean for me to feel that way. When I try to say, here is one thing you did, she says oh, okay. Then I say here is another, oh okay. Then I say to myself, oops maybe I'm being to nagging, maybe I sound like I'm educating her. So I shut up. I must have done this 10 times in the last six months. But when I shut up, nothing changes. None of my feelings get addressed. I then wonder, does she not understand or does she not care.

I know your sitch may not be the same, but in the end, I know were going to have to get it out in the open. Get it resolved. I just wish there was some good advice on how to do it. Every time I bring it up, I feel like it makes us take two steps back. But every time I don't I feel like I take 4 steps back.

rp,

I can certainly relate to being made a secondary consideration during my WW's A. We just cohabitated like room mates. It was a totally unbelievable life. We would make plans to do something and she would not show up or if I was lucky I might get a call "can't do that".

My son and I were to meet her after school to go get something to eat before we were to go do a job. She drove right past us as if we didn't exist. By the time I got the car turned around to find her, because I knew she had seen us and would stop and wait, she was long gone to see OM.

One time she even set up a double date with me OM and OMW at a jazz concert. He had wanted us to become friends as families. Can believe this [email]Cr@p.[/email]


Oh yeah I can relate.

rpr, i'm sorry your WW continues to make choices that hurt you so much.

in your post, you said, she is able to not choose you when it comes to her actions because she knew you would not take a stand.

hows that working for ya?

think a new plan might be a good idea?

FLTH,

It's not so much that I won't take a stand. Its just it appears the only weapon I have in my arsenal is to divorce/plan B.

Which is essentially what I did before Christmas. But after a couple days, she will call, say she's sorry, she's trying, etc, etc. If she can just get through this thing or that thing at work, then she's coming home, we'll restart MC, etc, etc.

I don't doubt she means it when she says it, but invariably, I end up on the short end at some point.

Its been like that for years. Long before D-Day. Round and round we go. Accept, accept, accept, blow up, apology, agree to be better, repeat.

I don't know if she is still in contact and that's why she doesn't come home. Although I have not seen any evidence. I see circumstantial things, but maybe it really is work related.

I know some well meaning person will point out, something like well if its been like that for years, why do you expect it to change, etc.

But I often feel like my only options are to just keep muddling along and hope one day it clicks in her head, or just end the M.

what about a truely DARK plan B.

gray Plan B's, i hear, are not very successful.

Just thought I 'd throw this out: to see what comes back if anything.

Any suggestions for a tactic to supress the feeling of sadness when that emotion comes around. I usually just start working on something and just try to concentrate elsewhere. Unfortunately it just cames back at a later time.
I know it doesn't stop he emotions coming again but by making a concerted effort of not dwelling on it I may be able to eventually change that habit, is my thinking.

Somebody suggested someplace counting by 7's. That was an interesting one.

Believe it or not just reading and talking here has helped a lot. I found that just venting here lets some of this go. I still kind of feel like something is constatly gnawing at my insides at times. Then when I don't have it I think where is it. I shouldn't feel like this something must be wrong. Of course then it shows up again.

Sometimes reading here gets a little overwhelming when I see this stuff happening to someone else and you feel their their pain and can't really do anything but offer some suggestion and a little sympathy.

No real focus here just sort a of ramling monologue.

rp,

When you W comes home are you going to sit down and truely discuss wha is going on, or just let it sit on a back burner and simmer? Sounds like the Pot needs stirring!!!!!

I know I should be talking, But it won't get fixed without making a try. Don't let her put you off on this.

FLTH - I'm in a bit of catch with a really dark plan B. I am unsure as to what to do, and I get conflicting advice about it.

Some argue that Plan B is about protecting your love for your WS. Some argue that plan B is a way to get your WS to snap back into reality and see what they will be losing. Some argue that plan B is about getting your self away from the madness so to speak. So argue that plan B is only for a WS, not a FWS.

I don't think my S is a WS, but a FWS. Contact has ended. My love for my FWS has remained relatively stable. Alright, maybe a slight decaying spiral, but not dropping off a cliff. Their is not a ton of madness to get away from, mostly sort of like a hangnail, that hurts when you snag it on something, but not a problem otherwise. Finally, my FWW is not going to snap back.

I asked SH, why are we like that. Why do so many people on these boards say go to plan B, while he is adamantly against me doing it. In a nutshell what he said is that you two guys have been living independent lives for about 8 years now.

It really started when I took a job with a new company that required me to move. My FWW did not want to move. The company I worked for said, we will transfer you back in a couple years. It was a really good job. So my FWW and I agreed that I would move and we would make the best of it for a couple years. I can clearly remember saying to her, I don't want to take this job if it is going to ruin our M. She said it wouldn't.

Anyway, long story short, we haven't really been intimate, since then. We've bascially lived apart since then, even after I moved back home.

SH told me, that we have become very good at it living apart. You have no kids that pull you together and you have grown comfortable being apart. And he's right. People talk about how they are married but just live like room mates. Well that's what we were doing. Truth be told, I was fine with that. I didn't love it or think it was ideal, but I was okay with it. I thought FWS was fine with that. But then the A clearly demonstrated she wasn't fine with it. And now, because of the A, I am no longer fine with it.

SH has more or less said I'm in a tough situation. If you plan B her, it will barely be a blip on the radar because we have been living separate lives for so long already. Plan B will not lead to recovery, but to divorce. He would only recomend plan B when I can't take it anymore. And what makes that tougher is that he knows I would be able to take it for a very long time, again because the emotional strain on me is not that great since we have been living separate lives for so long.

What is really hard about getting advice on this is most just yell out plan B, plan B. Then question my strength, courage, sanity, generally trying to motivate me to act that way. Don't get me wrong, I understand why they do that. But fear is not what constrains me. Logic is what holds me back. Very few listen to my logic, or if they do, they chalk it up to a rationalization of my fear. I have no fear. Its just plan B does not appear to be the logical way to recover my M. Some have offer other advice. Be more this or that, or be less this or that. The 180 plan, or mix things up. I have tried them all, but they are like bullets bouncing of superwoman. All my FWW seems to really act on are take it or leave it negotiations. All she seems to offer are take it or leave it. Similar to how I describe in my previous posts.

What a mess!

JKG - Absolutely will I talk to her about it. In fact your post has helped me synthesize some of the things I will likely say. But, I am not optimistic. I doubt she will understand. If she does understand, I don't know that she will care enough to make any changes.

What you are going through solidifies my own opinion that I can't leave it unaddressed. I would imagine that it comes down to that no one thinks they could just push this down for 20 years. But they do think they can push it down for a day or two. Or a week, or until after the holidays, etc. Before you know it it has been 20 years. Guess I will have to set a deadline.

Also, about distractions, I know what your saying. I'll tell you one that works for me. Laughter. Does anyone else just like in the mirror and say how did my life get into this sort of melodrama?

Oh well, ETA for FWW to leave on her drive home is 4:00 today.

rp,

IMO it sounds to melike you are going to have start over with our W. Start from the very beginning and reconnect. Dating etc. start meeting the EN's as if your were trying to win a new girl friend.

Since you have been basicly living separate lives all this time I don't see that just moving back together will just start the M up again. There has been too much experience that has gone by for both of you.

You will have to be patient and take this thing a step at a time just like you did when you first connected. This could be a new and exciting for both of you. But the past will have to be dropped for the time being I think. Yep push it down. Now then you work on the present and the future. There will be time later for discussion about what has transpired the last 8 years.

Just a thought. FWIW.

rp,

IMO It sounds to me as if you are going to have to start this M over from the beginning. I don't see how just moving back together is going to start up the M.
There has too much experience that has gone by for both of you during the last 8 years for that to just happen.

I think that I would be thinking about starting form the very beginning dating meeting her EN's and get to know each other all over again. You are not the same people you were 8 years ago. Start pursueing like you did when you first connected. This could be an exciting time for both of you if you are patient and don't press too hard.

Yep! push down your need to get the past 8 years out and in the open I think that will only get in the way of you and her reconnecting. That is your Ultimate goal Right! There will be plenty of time later to dicuss the past, but right now work on the present and future. Be upbeat and make yourself the attractive person she will want to to reconnect with. Just like dating all over again.

I fear that if you push hard about the last 8 years right now, there may not be a future together for you to work on. I know that sucks but I think that's where you may be right now.

Just my thoughts FWIW.

sorry for the double post!

Yep, 100% agree. It is exactly what I plan to do. In fact that's what FWW says she wants to do. I just feel like she needs to be here for us to "date" (She's driving on her way now.)

I guess your post just struck a chord with me.

YEAH!!!

This is good!!!

Plan A like mad. Make this the most fun time you have ever had together.

A new adventure in getting to know each other all over again. Discovery is the name of the game now because you are both different people than you were 8 years ago.