the enemy,

With all due respect, this is the same story we have all heard before. Go look at my thread, I'll be bumping it up to the front page later today. This is the EXACT same story as me. I lose my temper and yell, my wife meets someone from work, she starts having an emotional affair, and then she decides she wants to leave me. Well guess what? I didn't want to go along with it. I know you are only 19, but you should understand what, "for better or for worse till death do you part," means. So, I came here, and didn't make it easy for her to leave. Yes, the OM in my situation was a catalyst. You admitted the OM was the reason for Mrs. Dog. The advice that is given here is how to expose your WW to the CONSEQUENCES of her actions, and to break up the AFFAIR. Guess what? I told my WW's friends and family, I told her boss and HR department (it was a workplace A), I even called OM's parents, and I made it clear that she wasn't welcome in the marital house if she was talking to OM. Well, I managed to break them up in November. Now my wife doesn't even talk about divorce after she was "sure" she wanted it just a few months ago. Most of the other posters here have had the exact same experience. You said the OM was a catalyst. Well, if you remove the catalyst, the reaction no longer takes place. You've had high school chemistry lately, so you should know that.

All these posters here (Shattered Dreams, Maybe2Late, me, etc.) have been in the exact same position and saved our marriages. Read our stories.

Mrs. Dogfood can change her mind once the OM is out of the picture. It happens every time. Yes, Mr. Dogfood had his faults, but Mrs. Dogfood was at least emotionally cheating with OM. They both made mistakes, but they are married and should work out their problems. Otherwise, they are just bound to repeat their mistakes. You know how Mrs. Dogfood feels, have you ever thought about Mr. Dogfood. When my WW was having hear A I couldn't eat (lost 30 lbs), couldn't sleep (only about 3 hours a night), and couldn't function at work. And even through all of this, I fought for my W even after what she had done to me. Mrs. Dogfood should respect that her H cares about her enough to fight to keep her in his life. She obviously means a lot to him. I pray for the both of them that they make it through this together.

I'll bite -

#1 - how long did it take you and Mrs. Dog to read 300 posts of this 920 post thread? It took me 4 hours to read all of the what were 909 posts as of last night - and I'm an extremely fast reader.

#2 - TE - How much have you been around addiction, mental illness or anything else that remotely resembles a sudden change in personality? At 19 years of age, I was a VERY mature 19 and had very little experience beyond my mother's own mood swings - and I still didn't recognize it in anyone else.

See, if you met Mrs. Dog as her personality changed, you wouldn't know if she was happy in the marriage, or not. You can't see what you don't know.

You admit that you don't know enough about marriage to give advice one way or the other. But until you recognize you lack enough human experience of the #2 kind, you are going to buy into any side you get acquainted with first.

Every person on this board has dealt with the monster that has a good woman captive. That good woman is Mrs. Dog. The monster is infidelity. There is NO GOOD REASON - EVER! for a woman to attach herself to any relationship outside the marriage. My mother did and in my mind what she did was understandable but not right - and it destroyed her soul. My dad was physically and verbally/emotionally abusive.

I've seen Dog being very candid about his temper - working on his responses to a very anger triggering situation. Not once has he lashed out at the OM in the Old Dog way. And he has worked very hard to show Mrs. Dog that he is working on it. And if she is honest, she has noticed it. It is not contrived to manipulate her.

Someone very wise on this board recovered her marriage to a not-so-wonderful man by saying, "I have all the time in the world to get a divorce. I have only now to be married." She worked a change on herself - even though she wasn't the one "at fault" in the marriage, and her husband found that he could lose this wonderful woman if he didn't shape up.

Mrs. Dog could take on the same attitude. She does have all the time in the world to get divorced. But she only has now to be married to Dog. If you, as her friend, refuse to encourage her to do everything in her power to make sure she tried to save this marriage, she will live to regret her actions for the rest of her life. A friend who cares about Mrs. Dog should never d*mn a friend to live with this kind of remorse. It is unrelenting.

Of course, you won't know that until you've actually had a friend go through that kind of regret h*ll - you have acknowledged you lack experience with marriage.

Remember - Mrs. Dog has all the time in the world to get divorced; but she only has now to be married.

?

I applauded you for coming her and stating your opinions, as we come her to state ours. I am not questioning anything you have said, as jim says we have all heard it before. So how long does it take to be BFFE? It took be 12 years to develop my best friend and I's relationship, so you would ahve been 7 when you met Mrs dog <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Just pointing out that you are emotionally attached to the situation, like it or not.

I can tell you that has Mr Dog moves towards Plan B and insulates himself from her, Mrs Dog is going to attach or attack to the nearest thing possible, we compare this to addicts withdrawl.

You also have to realize that there is a wrong way and a right wasy to end a relationship.... she did it wrong. She processed internally well before Mr Dog realized what was happening, so you have to realize that he will fight and he will change for his marriage, we all do.

If you have anything else to say please let us know, it sounds like we may be able to save an affair relationship before it starts if you stay around and learn what being taught here

Hi there, t_e.

My husband was certain he was going to divorce me, but he changed his mind.

DF is doing what he's doing for himself so that he can be a better man, a better husband to Mrs.DF if she ever considers giving him that chance, but even if not, he will be a better partner for his next significant other. There is much wisdom to be gained from the tragedy of infidelity.

When I was your age I had much older friends, too, and was quite precociously mature. I even married my husband who was 26.

But the facts are that the most recent research strongly suggests that neural development is not completed until about age 25, which contributes to the incidence of driving accidents and other risky behaviors.

Please see these articles:
http://www.tturc.uci.edu/media/glossary.html
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=27&did=977
http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/mentally-teens-drive-best-alone/2007/01/10/1168105051849.html
http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/news/opinion/16349659.htm


Over our 25 years together, I have fallen in and out of love with my husband many times. I'm pretty crazy about him. Love is a VERB not a feeling. Feelings are transient, love remains. She loved him enough to marry him, so no matter what she says NOW, that is a fact.

My husband, during his affair, told me he hadn't been happy in ten years.. That's called re-writing history, when he said it, I showed him the diamond ring he'd surprised me with the previous Christmas, and asked him, why did you give me this ring and ask me to marry you all over again, if you weren't happy?

That made it through the fog.

I'm hoping for the best for all of you, but I do have to tell you one thing before I sign off.

I used to have a friend who encouraged me to make physical, an emotional involvement with an "Other Man", she felt I was entitled to better treatment, blah blah.

After my husband'd physical affair broke my heart, I realized she never truly had my best interest at heart-- (even though we'd been friends since we were 9 years old)--
she encouraged me to cheat on my husband with her theories that I deserved more or better. As I say, after my husband's affair, I realized how much I truly loved him, because it hurt so very bad and I still wanted to forgive him in spite of all the pain I felt. I realized that someone who encouraged me to break my vows was not truly my friend, so I cut her completely out of my life. I'm still very close friends with her sister, but I will never speak to her again. She's not a good influence in my life. She disrespected my vows, and I will not let anyone near us who doesn't respect marriage again.

Gald to see you back here. Please take a look around and read as much as you can. You will see that Mr&MrsDF sitch is very normal and therefore can be worked out. It will take time and work, but it can be so much better.

TE... the fact that you will not judge your friends behavior as wrong proves your immaturity. Infidelity is wrong... period... no matter the cause it is always wrong and a true friend would not tolerate that behavior in those closest to her. See, being only one year out of high school... you wouldn't know that.... we all thought we were mature 19 year olds. Heck, I had the power to arrest people at the age of 21...and I can look back and know I wasn't mature by the standards I use today. You are looking at this marriage like a high school relationship and trust me... you are too inexperienced to know what you don't know. Aside from this...You are being nothing more than a mouthpiece for Mrs. Dog.

All that being said...I have recommended that the Dog agree to divorce. Has he given her reason to cheat...no. Has he given her reason to fall out of love with him and divorce... perhaps yes, perhaps no. The fact is, only Mrs. DF can make that call... but her credibility and ability to make that decision were both severely hampered by her behavior. I would not argue that Mrs. DF should stay with an abusive person. That is her choice... and frankly, if I were Mrs. DF's brother... there might be he11 to pay for the emotional abuse that happened. MIGHT BE! But you need to realize that you are getting ONE side of the story.
DF and his wife should be the ones working this stuff out. The suggestions he got here to follow his wife and to have the OM evicted are sound and reasonable. I wouldn't expect a child to understand that. But her feelings of disconnect are also reasonable... her affair was not.
I have suggested to the Dog to read a book which I think will help him. Like many abusive people he probably feels powerless right now becauce his grip on his wife is slipping away. Verbal abuse and emotional abuse are nothing more than insecurities acted out against those we care about. They are horrible in every imaginable way. When the abused breaks free... there is an obsession to hang on for dear life to the PERCEIVED control that he had. That is not healthy. He has been given healthy options here... and not surrendering your spouse without a fight to the OM is healthy. Letting your WW walk up a flight of stairs into another mans apartment without doing everything you can is not healthy.
In my opionion... it is time to end this M. There is no maturity on either side. He needs to grow... and she needs to grow up. Perhaps one of the first steps that DF needs to take is to not rely just on books and a forum to help his problem. He could contact an abuse hotline and find out where he can go to get professional help... sort of an AA for verbal abusers. Perhaps the best place that Mrs. DF can start would be to recognize that she has behaved in a most dishonorable way and to rectify that situation. She can also stop confiding in an enabling 19 year old that thinks that true friendship is standing by while your friend self destructs.

Would you consider not aiding her in the demise of her marriage?

Will you find yourself another roomate?

~ Marsh

This is from a FWW who might understand exactly how Mrs. Dogfood might be feeling. Marsh, maybe you should expound on your situation and how you are doing now.

Sure, Jim, I'll give it a go.

I've been married for as long as you (TE) have been alive! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Over those years there were times where my DH didn't live up to my expectations, and rather than speak up and ask for changes, I turned those unfulfilled expectations into resentments...just as Mrs. Dog has. I had drawn "black marks" against my DH in the form of my resentments.

So, when I met OM, he had a "clean slate"...was brand new. I didn't give him any black marks, so it was MUCH easier to accept his "kindness" and "love" than it was for me to accept those things from my DH.

I CHOOSE to have an A. I own it. I don't blame my DH for it. My A had NOTHING to do w/ my DH. It was all about ME. And my desire to FEEL GOOD. But, my feelings were based on lies and fantasy...same as Mrs. Dog's are. In order to even begin an A, you have to lie to yourself. You have to pretend in your mind that you're not married. And THAT is just the beginning of the lies. THAT is what the fog is made up of...lies.

During my A, I lost all of my loving feelings for my DH. I didn't believe I could ever love him again. But, guess what? I was wrong.

I thank God that I didn't have ONE friend who would support my choice to have an A. B/c if I had, perhaps I wouldn't be sitting here today w/ my family intact and my love for my DH restored. Oh, and NOT only have I recovered all my loving feelings for my DH, but I acquired new ones that are deeper and MORE tender.

It wasn't easy breaking away from my A. Not at all. I had to establish NC and get through some VERY painful w/drawals before I started to recover my feelings for my DH again.

I am so thankful for this site and these people here who helped me.

My A was THE biggest mistake in my life, and I have no doubt Mrs. Dog will regret her choice to have her A as well.

~ Marsh

Forgiveness

To forgive
Is not to forget.

To forgive
Is really to remember
That nobody is perfect
That each of us stumbles
When we want so much to stay upright
That each of us says things
We wish we had never said
That we can all forget that love
Is more important than being right.

To forgive is really to remember
That we are so much more
Than our mistakes
That we are often more kind and caring
That accepting another's flaws
Can help us accept our own.

To forgive is to remember
That the odds are pretty good that
We might soon need to be forgiven ourselves.
That life sometimes gives us more
Than we can handle gracefully.

To forgive is to remember
That we have room in our hearts to
Begin again

And again,

And again. And again.

-author unknown

Beautiful poem, 10S.

~ Marsh

the enemy, a real friend does not "support" a friend in being BAD. Mrs Dog is in an adulterous relationship and your "support" is really only ENABLING. A REAL FRIEND would help her friend do the RIGHT THING.

Be a REAL FRIEND, te, not a fake, fair weather friend who just tells her friend what she wants to hear so she will be liked. Anyone can blow smoke up her [censored] and just tell her what she wants to hear. A REAL FRIEND does not do that.

Be a real friend and help your MrsDog do the right thing, ie: end her affair and go back to her husband. Be a real friend, te.

Welcome back, TE

But, you have passed judgement on me, based on what you have been told by my wife. Bear in mind, there are two sides to every story.

It appears that our (my wife and I) history has been revised somewhat.

On january 8th, when she told me she wanted a divroce, she told me that the past few weeks have not been very happy for her. This coincides with her budding friendship with the OM.
Rewind about three months. At that time, she started working at the coffee place. Between the coffee place and her other job, between me working 4 jobs, there were days that we saw each other for maybe 20 minutes. Her time off didn't jive with my time off. Sometimes, her days off would coincide with me having to take a trip to the office, some 165 miles away where I would have to spend the night. It was tough and frustrating.

After awhile, and during the course of events that took place over the past three weeks, being unhappy a few weeks went to being unhappy for the past few years to she has been unhappy since day one and here is how my life would have been better if I she had never met me. She even stated she does not know why she married me.

As to the anger management issue and verbal abuse. The past three months, I definitely haven't been very good in that department, I admit. Did I call her names every day? No. Did I yell at her everyday? No. Did I come home in a bad mood every day? No.
Did the above happen at all? Yes, it did. Not something I am proud of.

It was not an everyday occurence, as it is more than likely being portrayed. Like I said, there are two sides to every story and you have only heard one side.

I do thank you in your support on my ongoing campaign to improve myself. That is why I am here.

If you would like to discuss this further and not in a public forum, feel free to call me. My number is the same as my wife's, only the last digit is a 6. I will not try to "control" or tell you what to do. I will not try to put you in the middle. But I feel that before you pass your final judgement of me, you need to hear things from both sides.

One more thing, the_enemy,

ALL marriages have problems, and all spouses wonder if the grass is greener. I did it before my WW's affair. The first few years of M are always the toughest. My WW's affair happened in our 3rd year of marriage. Heck, I found out less than a week before our third wedding anniversary. If Mrs. Dog got divorced and found someone else, she would just run into the same problem another few years down the road. What would she do then? Would she be a serial relationship jumper? Jump from relationship to relationship to enjoy the endorphin rush of a new relationship only to discard it once the high wears off and the problems start rearing their ugly heads.

There is a famous marriage counselor who appears on TV named Mort Fertel who says that the BEST marriages are the ones that hit rock bottom, and the husband and wife worked to make their marriage great. You see if a marriage never hits rock bottom often there is no motivation to work on and improve things. Couples start taking each other for granted. Once you've been down this road you never learn to take each other for granted again. This could actually be the catalyst that makes Mr. and Mrs. Dogfood happily married. I know that my WW's affair was the catalyst for me to make some overdo changes, and I can see her start to make some changes as well. Often these rocky times lead to wonderful times if the marriage is strong enough to make it through. Remember the proverb, happiness is just on the other side of pain. Mrs. Dogfood CAN and WILL be happy if she decides to work on her M with her H. Statistics show that over 80% of people who divorce are less happy 5 years later. But they all thought that the M was the cause of all their unhappiness. WRONG! Don't let your friend make that same mistake. Why don't you read up on the subject a little more? You would be surprised at what you learn.

I'm praying for you and Mrs. Dogfood that you make the right choices. No one here is judging you or Mrs. Dog. I wish you wouldn't be so defensive here and could engage in more polite conversation. Yes, some posters will say some mean things, but we see this day in and day out and just get sick of it all sometimes. Do you think this is an easy subject for me to talk about being that my wife fooled around with another man last September, and wanted to divorce me as recently as Novemeber? No, but these people have helped me make changes in myself and get through these difficult times, and I am trying to give back what they gave me. Please, learn from your experiences here. It will make you far more mature than your 19 years if you take some of this to heart. I am only 26, but I feel like I've grown up at least 10 years in the short time I have been here. We're all praying for you. I hope to hear from you again soon.

Post deleted by the_enemy

TE, another FWW here. Yes, I could have written your post during the A, ALL WS's could have written your post.

Luckily, thankfully, I realised I was MARRIED after the A ended and I did everything I could to save that marriage. OF COURSE, the OM is at the bottom of all this, not just a "catalyst". I had been married for 28 years before my A, now married 32 years. I would have given up a wonderful man and a wonderful marriage if I'd thrown it all away.

I also agree with everyone else. A true friend works for the RIGHT thing.

TE - You sound like you do GET some of the MB stuff. I suggest you read the articles here on how to have a GREAT marriage, so that when you get married, you won't have to go through what the DOG's are going through.

the_enemy – (if you see yourself as the enemy to marriage, then I guess your choice of a nom de plume would be accurate) However, if you TRULY want to help BOTH Dogfood and Mrs. Dogfood, I will accept your "offer" to be the "postmaster/letter carrier" to Mrs. Dogfood.

Before I begin let me say that I have stayed out of this thread for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is lack of faith by either Dogfood and Mrs. Dogfood, because I am the "opposite" of 2Long with respect to the faith in God issue, I AM a Christian who believes in the sanctity of marriage and the Christian concept of servanthood (especially as it pertains to a husband/wife scenario).

I have decided to post to see if you really do mean what you wrote or if you are merely another "enabler" attempting to justify your friend's (Mrs. Dogfood) "reasons" for abandoning her marriage.

Here's the FIRST bit of information you may want to consider and reply to:

Do two people have to FEEL in love with each other to be married or do they simply have to make the choice to ACT(as in DO, not pretend) "as if they loved and cared for the spouse?

Here is the second item for your consideration and comment:

MOST marriages include VOWS that both the bride and the bridegroom COVENANT with themselves and with their spouse. Part of those vows will include something like the following: “I promise to love, cherish, and care for you in sickness and in health, for richer or for poorer, for better or for worse, until death do us part.” Do you think the vows should be changed to end in something like, "...until I no longer 'feel' like it or no longer 'feel' tingly 'in love' feelings."?

You cite the FEELINGS of Mrs. Dogfood as being “sufficient justification” for reniging on her vows. Let me assure you that neither I, nor anyone else that I know of on Marriage Builders, endorses “spousal abuse” in any form and do not say that ANY spouse abuse(because it’s not limited to just men or just women) is “okay.”

But you cite Mr. Dogwood’s history of anger and “acting out” that anger by calling Mrs. Dogwood names and, as he has confessed, occasionally swiping items off the countertop, etc., as “sufficient justification to end their marriage.” I disagree strongly. I AGREE that such behavior is NOT conducive to a “good marriage” and should NOT be how anyone handles their feelings of anger.

By the same token, you insist, rightly so in my humble opinion, that husbands and wives should be equal partners in a marriage. You are talking about a “value” issue, but a marriage also thrives on a distinguishing of, and performance of, certain “roles” that each “takes the lead in” in various aspects of the marriage. Mr. Dogfood has explained one area of such “agreement” in assigning and accepting “roles” in the “division of household labor.” Part of such a “division” is the responsibility of the one who accepts a certain role to PERFORM that role as an act of servanthood to the other spouse. That Mrs. Dogfood would “do it for a little while” and then let it slide played a role in Mr. Dogwood’s anger and eventual “display” of that anger.

So let’s not lose sight of the fact that there is enough “blame” to go around whenever there is a marriage “in trouble.”

Part of the reason so many marriages GET “in trouble” is because there is so little, if any, premarital counseling or training regarding what IS expected in a marriage and what is IS expected that each person will “give up voluntarily” that as a “single person” they might not have to “give up.”

Let’s be perfectly frank her for just another minute. Mrs. Dogfood was a child when she began dating Mr. Dogfood and may very well have built in her mind some idea of what a “fairytale marriage” would be, and then began to “expect” that her marriage would BE that “fairytale marriage.” In reality, there are very few, if any, “fairytale marriages” where all is nice and problems of one sort or another are never encountered. Add to that the fact that Mr. Dogfood is chronologically significantly older than Mrs. Dogfood, and there is a built-in potential for differences in habits and maturity levels.

In short, most marriages are NOTHING like the imaginings of young people. Marriage takes work and it takes compromise and it takes submission.

What Mrs. Dogwood is exhibiting right now, and that you are enabling, is pure and complete selfishness and self-entitlement. She CAN live that way, but she will never make what in my opinion is good “marriage material” being that self-centered.

That “verbal abuse” needs to be banished is true. So does “emotional abuse,” of which Mrs. Dogwood is at least equally guilty as Mr. Dogwood. A married woman DOES NOT have and emotional or physical affair with another man simply to “get her needs met that she thinks, rightly or wrongly, that her husband is not meeting. That’s what they have Marriage Counselors for. Some who IS independent and has no “interest” in either the husband or the wife. That is how the folks who have been posting here are. They have NO vested interested in either Mr. Dogfood or Mrs. Dogfood, but they DO have a lot experience with the phenomenon of Adultery, in all of it’s forms. They are committed to SAVING marriages whenever possible (some legitimately need to end, but Mr. and Mrs. Dogfood’s is not one of those).

They are committed to helping two people (usually beginning with just one of them because one of them is victim of adultery and spouse who claims “I love you but I’m not in love with you anymore, and maybe I never really did love you”) RECOVER that which is currently lost.

NO ONE, at least no sane person, ever is “in love” with someone the first time they meet and is ready to instantly be married to that person. That takes time. The same applies to recovering a marriage.

It is a FACT that “feelings of love” come long after the people involved commit to themselves to ACT, that is to DO, in loving ways. “Feelings” are a response to being a recipient of those acts.

Unfortunately, virtually all spouses who are intent upon an affair or intent upon leaving a marriage do many things that are in common, and that are “fooling themselves” into thinking that recovering their marriage is not possible, without having tried anything approaching a “serious attempt” to recover the marriage.

This “bubble” of mental justifications and rationalizations, especially when they are reinforced and aided by others outside of the marriage, is what results in what we call the “FOG.” In essence it is allowing the emotions to control the actions and reactions rather than logic, commitment, and reality.

It immediately changes “…until death do us part” to “…until I no longer have the tingly feelings of being ‘in love’ with you.” It replaces a solemn VOW with “fingers crossed behind my back” so I didn’t really mean what I said.

The_enemy, despite your mother’s blessing on what you are doing, you are WRONG. That is my opinion. You are wrong a number of levels, not the least of which is you are putting yourself BETWEEN a husband and a wife and ENABLING one of them to not WORK THROUGH the issues. You are enabling one of them to RUN AWAY as the “best response” to difficulty.

NOT ONE marriage of those who post here has succeeded without the husband and the wife at least sincerely TRYING to “fix the problems” and rebuild the marriage. NOT ONE of them had a “guarantee of success” going into the attempt. What they all had was a guarantee that the marriage WOULD end if they didn’t at least give it a TRY. Ending something as precious as a marriage without trying everything to save it is the cowards way out. LOVE flies in the face of cowardice. LOVE says I will try even though we may be unsuccessful.

That is why the vows include BOTH the “positive” and the “negative.” That vow is NOT dependent upon feelings, but upon commitment.

If you truly love Mrs. Dogfood then you should NOT support or enable her ending of her marriage without FIRST trying everything within her power to save it and build the type of marriage that she envisions would be her “fairytale.” Understand that there are NO guarantees in life, and there would be NO guarantee that ANY potential future husband of Mrs. Dogfood would not also “fall short” of her idyllic concept of marriage and lead to a “loss of feelings of ‘in love,” and then she’d be right back to running away from THAT marriage too.



You see, this is where you are wrong. You don’t KNOW that Mrs. Dogfood won’t reconsider. Just about every spouse that wanted out of their marriage “felt” the same way BEFORE they tried to save their marriage. My own wife was in her own apartment, engaged to be married to her Other Man, and had divorce papers drawn up and ready to be served. TODAY, 4 years later, she is very much “in love” with me by her own admission and cannot understand how she let things get the way they were or how I has “enough love” for the both of us to “fight to save our marriage.”



That is “fogtalk” justification and rationalization. Don’t believe me? She made “her choice” at least once before when she chose to marry Mr. Dogfood after 4 years of dating him. She chose “marriage for life” and there was nothing anyone else could say that would “talk her out it.”



the-enemy, “talk is cheap” as the saying goes. Mrs. Dogfood has no reason to “believe” that the changes Mr. Dogfood is making in himself ARE permanent. But I can tell you most people DO make permanent changes when they have a REASON to make changes. Around Marriage Builders we DO NOT believe in maintaining, or reverting to, the “Status Quo.” Rebuilding a marriage in crisis REQUIRES changes in BOTH spouses that are permanent. It does NOT require that people BE perfect, or even that they can’t sometimes “lose control” of their new behavior and revert momentarily to the “old behavior,” but it does mean that change will become the NORM.

Frankly, Mr. Dogfood has, at this point, no reason to trust that Mrs. Dogfood would not revert to the way she is now either, seeking “answers and self-worth” in another man and in enabling friends instead of rolling up her sleeves and WORKING at deficient areas in the marriage.

Trust, as in “blind trust,” is GONE. The trust that replaces it, especially in the “big areas,” is “earned trust.” You EARN trust through actions, not words. You may state the words, but you give truth to the words that results in trust by DOING, not just talking.





And THAT is your problem and WHY you should not be involved in this marital problem between Mr. and Mrs. Dogfood. That is your OPINION, and while you may sincerely think it’s true, you do NOT have the marital experience with which to back up your opinion. WE do. We have “walked that walk” and “talked that talk.” We have put on their “shoes” and walked in them, and we are telling both you and the currently fogbound Mrs. Dogfood that you are both wrong.

Do you go to school to have a teacher with NO training and NO experience try to teach you what you need to know in order to “master” as subject? Or do you look for experiences teachers who will even assign homework that “you don’t want to do” but that is a vital step in actually learning and mastering the subject?



Yes you are, and there is not denying it. Your interjecting yourself into the “problem” and offering to provide a “roommate” arrangement with Mrs. Dogfood clearly states that you have made and uniformed decision based upon your “feelings” and that you are using those same feelings to provide “justification” for your actions that are designed to facilitate the breaking up of a marriage. How YOU perceive their marriage is irrelevant. It is THEIR marriage, not yours.



You are rationalizing and projecting your own experiences and feelings onto their situation. Your father was, or was not, “emotionally abusive” to you. We can’t form an opinion about that since all you’ve provided is your accusation that your father was emotionally abusive to you. There are many forms of “parenting” that children see as “abusive,” but really are not. It would seem that since you have not said “physically abusive” you are probably referring to things like “angry outbursts,” “you’ll never amount to anything!,” etc..

Change will NOT occur, usually, with a precipitating “crisis.” But a Crisis will often result in a change in behavior when someone comes to realize that the behavior in question is “destructive” and not “constructive.” I’ll not get further into this area at this time but will simply leave it as it appears your father was never faced with a “crisis” that forced him to reexamine his behavior.




No one is going to “demean your character.” Telling you that you are wrong in what you are trying to do “for” Mrs. Dogfood and “against” Mr. Dogfood is NOT an attack on you personally but is meant to “oppose” your opinion. We consider your opinion and evaluation of their situation to be limited at best, and seriously flawed at worst.

That is no different than telling a student teacher that you want to be taught the Professor because the subject matter is much more difficult than the student teacher has experience or knowledge of. That is NOT “demeaning” the student teacher, it is a statement of FACT that is in the best interest for all involved.




I respect you in that you think you are doing something to “help.” The problem is that you really don’t have the knowledge or experience TO help. You can, as you did in the above quotation, state your OPINION, but that’s all that it is, an opinion based in FEELINGS, not in experience.

The BEST, not the easiest, thing for both of them to do is to live together and go together to JOINT Marital Counseling with a trained Counselor who is committed to saving marriages that are currently in serious trouble.

FH, what a WONDERFUL post.