Hey, Newly. My post crossed with yours.

Welcome back. It’s really not as tough as it seems. I’ll be fine no matter what. I’m a little confused why M sees insinuations in my email to him. The one I posted first. I tried to be clear that I didn’t know how he would respond. Maybe I supposed to just know “He’d never do that!” LOL. How many of us here thought that about our spouses only to find out he or she would indeed do just that?

I think the words are important, at least once. This harkens back to my FOO issues. Without the words, someone could later say, “Well, I never said that I loved you. You just assumed that. And you shouldn’t have.” I doubt that would be M, but I think a little consideration for my own insecurities is in order. Do I complain he has never said I was pretty, or smart or anything? No. I found I can live without that.

What’s up with you? Same old, same old?


GDP, sorry I missed yours at first.Actually, I don’t think he needs to make any adjustments now. But, you know how it is when you get married. When two people create one life, both have to make adjustments. To expect to do otherwise, is either naïve or the sign of someone who would not be a good marriage partner.

Again, PERSONALLY, after 14 months, I would want to know that we were headed in the same direction, whichever direction that may be.

GG, if you were content with the relationship AS IS, there would be no discussion.

Yes, according to you, you are with a caring man yet you feel unsafe and insecure about what? That is the bigger issue. It seems, to me, that a lot of expectations surround his saying ILY...he will work harder at the relationship, he will be less tempted...

He is who he is - has he not shown you who he is during the past 14 months?

Do you have fun with him? Is he flexible with his time? Do your kids have a good relationship with him?

Just back from Salt Lake City on business, took the kids and skied in Park City. Amazing. Would love to go back, but it costs. Then again, paying a sitter to watch my kids for the 5 days I was away would have cost too (since dad still won't watch them). And, I find that I still want to expose the kids to the life they would have had, and the experiences they could have in an intact family.

No relationships here. Just updated my match profile. One of my employees actually rewrote it from a guy's perspective, and it sounds much better than what I had (he's married, just looks for his friends (and it is true)).
Sometimes, it is so much easier to plan life and do things without having the concern of another person. I can do what I want, and my house can be messy if I want, and I can unpack when I want. I never had the "helping" spouse, so I can't really say how I would benefit.

A good friend is seriously discussing getting married this year, and we see many different perspectives from our friends. This friend has worked hard on her healing and really found a great mate for herself, and a great step father for her children, and I believe they will be able to blend their families. I think it takes the right two people. Not all relationships can work, and the kid factor just throws more wrenches and considerations into it.
However, I believe and hope that a good marriage is possible after divorce, and that I am seeing the beginning stages in my friend's relationship. And that helps me to believe that it is possible for me to find someone who suits me, and can be a part of our family. Someone who will add to our lives, and not just be an appendage.
I truly believe that. And someday, I hope to be open to the possibility. I'm getting there slowly.

You are open to the possibility and opened your heart to M. Now, you need to open your whole life to him. That is hard for those of us who "protect" our hearts to avoid hurt. We need to model for our children, what we want for them. Can you model a healthy marriage or relationship for them? I think you can.

Keep communicating with M, that is the only way.

It's not his fault, nor is it yours. It's just a fact of the situation. And as you said, and I totally agree, the idea of being in love with someone who is not in love with you is very painful, no matter how much you try to rationalize that it is not anyone's "fault". I am pretty sure that if I found myself being in love with someone who did not reciprocate, I'd start building up a wall to guard myself from hurt. I sense, GG, that you are doing the same.

I don't have any advice on how to get around that; as a start, I would suggest less e-mailing and more talking, because e-mails can very often be misinterpreted.

But, I would also advise against falling back into the "let's just have fun dating and not talk about the future" approach, now that the elephant has sat down in the living room. I know wiftty will come in with his "spouse shopping" warning, but I cannot see how you can ignore the big pachyderm that has entered the room.

AGG

Deserving, I think I haven’t been clear. I don’t think him saying ILY will change any thing now. I don’t want it to. M puts plenty into our relationship now. I’m simply looking down the road. Considering the challenges when you are living together or married, then it makes a HUGE difference if someone is in love or not. Because, at some point in three or five years, there’s going to be a point where one or both partners need to step up to the plate. If the partners are in love, they are more motivated to step up to the plate. It’s that 3 or 5 or 8 years in the future that I’ve been worried about.

As for M saying ILY now, I think I would feel more secure since I would know how he feels about me. His actions and words would match. Right now, they are out of sync. I would interpret his actions to mean I love you. I really don’t think him saying those words would change a bit about his behavior. Actually, I hope it wouldn’t.

AGG, I agree with you. I’m not sure how much longer I could go on anyway. While I thought we were talking about marriage, I was able to tell myself, “He loves you, he’s just not comfortable saying it.” After all, who considers marriage without being in love? But, living together is an altogether different thing. People live together who aren’t in love.

In September, I decided to give him more time because as Newly pointed out, not every one falls in love quickly. But, we’re nearing the middle of January.

GG, you are in a very tough spot, and I sympathize.

One thing I would caution you about is to NOT box M into a position where he feels that his "in love" pulse is being taken daily. No one likes to feel like they are being checked daily to see if they are fully cooked.

As an example, I dated a woman a few years back where after about 4 dates, she started asking me what I was feeling towards her. I said I thought she was a nice girl, smart, fun, pretty, great to be with, etc. She said "that is what you THINK, but what do you FEEL?". I knew she wanted me to say something to do with love, which was totally absurd in my opinion. So her eyes filled with tears, crap.

But ever since that day, we had a very asymmetrical relationship, with her clearly "waiting" for me to catch up. Well, that wasn't gonna happen; I was not going to fall in love with someone under pressure, so if anything, her expectations precluded any chance of that happening.

I bet that M feels the same way, that you are "waiting" for him. No, I am not saying that you are pressuring him directly, but unless he is a dope, he no doubt feels the same thing that I feel when I read your posts; so he knows it bothers you. No wonder he feels bad. Not your fault, mind you, just the way it is. And I totally agree with you that after 14 months it is not an unreasonable expectation, so again, I am not saying you are wrong - it is just a bind.

I know this is probably not helping, but I just thought I'd share my thoughts, er, feelings.

AGG

I think those are thoughts. LOL.

As I said, I didn't really worry about from September until say, December 22nd, when we figured out "coming households" meant marriage to me and living together to him.

I have a horrible feeling this means the end of the road for me. At least in this relationship. It stinks, but there you are. Besides, if he doesn't love me now, when would he? For his own good, he should find someone he can fall in love with. Stinks for me, but there you are.

Besides, I'm not worse off than when he came into my life. I still have my kids, my friends, my dog, my house, my family. I have a full, great life. I'm one lucky person.

"For his own good, he should find someone he can fall in love with."

GG - you DESERVE someone who loves you completely!!!!

Wishing you the best!!!

Did I miss something GG? How do you know he doesn't love you? Has he said he doesn't love you? Is it his reluctance/inability to say ILY? Is it that he doesn't show you he loves in the way you need to see it?

It's sounding like you're trying to wrap this thing up without sitting down & discussing it with M. That doesn't sound fair. It sounds like you're trying to protect your heart.

Oh, nams, that's not playing fair!

Actually, I did discuss it a little with him last night. Well, a lot. I have no idea if he's in love with me. Actually, I think he probably is, but doesn't want to put that word to it yet.

However, I don't want to assume that's the way he feels if he doesn't.

Unsolicited last night, I found out why I got such a short reply. M thinks that with long emails a person starts to read into the email and see insinuations that really weren't intended. He didn't want that to happen.

We'll see about the rest. I think in six months, if not soon, we'll have a "go-no go" decision. My expression, not M's. M thinks I've been watching too much of the NASA channel.

I wasn't trying to be mean, GG, but you know that right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Now that you feel some relief from not having this relationship over today how do you feel knowing there is a sort of test over the next 6 months?

Did M use the words in the next 6 months if not sooner your relationship will be a go or no go?

Yup, that is what I was saying too. E-mails can be very easily misunderstood, because there is no tone or body language.


Not to be a pest, but do you both have a similar understanding of what "go/no-go" means? IOW, is it possible you are talking apples and oranges? Does he feel that he needs to "fall in love with you" in six months, or decide to marry you, or what? What are you deciding? As another question, is the six month wait simply to postpone what you can decide now if you wanted to, or is it truly a matter of getting more mileage under the belt?

AGG

And, have you introduced M to the MB principles so that he can "know" how to identify his top EN's and help meet yours?

Would that help him understand the type of relationship you want/need? I would think so.

GG, you think he loves you (as per his Actions), yet you think he's not in love with you (he doesn't say it).

After 14 months and having talk about living together... don't you think that 'in love with you' moved to the next level 'I love you'?
I.e. for me, 'to be in love' and 'to love' have different meaning.
And for what you want (M forever), love is what you should have... ('love' can last forever unlike 'be in love'...)

His not showing/saying it the way you want/need... communications needs to be improved, define each other's ENs as Newly said...

Btw, have you ever thought that this IS his maximum he can feel&show it?
What if he's not capable of loving you (nor anyone else!) the way you need?
Would that be 'acceptable' (if what he feels for you now is 'max. he can feel')?

I understand your point, B2M.

I think what's really going on with the ILY on my end it this. I'm afraid that if he doesn't say it, he doesn't feel it. I'm fine with his behavior, the way he cares for me. The way he cares for me meets my needs, which is why I'm in love with him.

My concern is what if the way I demonstrate care (my actions) doesn't meet his needs enough to generate that "in love" feeling.

I'd rather know that now. When I've asked about what I do that he likes, and what he may not like, he gets uncomfortable. I probably need to address that better.

GG --

Oh so sorry I didn't pop onto this one sooner -- I am in your shoes and have been for quite some time.

I'm also dating an "ILY-phobe." I have never been treated better in my life! But he'd rather do just about anything than actually SAY it. For a while there I was getting all those goofy responses too. And it took some negotiation. I had to tell him I was OK with his smartass answers or being silly -- but every once in a while I needed to hear it back.

And because his two top priorities are:
1) Making me happy; and...
2) Avoiding making me unhappy....
He has accomodated my wishes and responds sincerely at least 10% of the time.

You said this is the longest relationship M has had. Maybe this is just something he has not learned to do.
And I think you need to honestly tell him how its making you feel. I know that it was draining my LB when I never got an ILY. But it was my responsibility to let him know my needs were not getting met.

I also know that I am a "temperature taker" and alway seem to feel a need to "know" where we're at. I've relaxed a lot on that. What I know now is that we are great right here and right now, and I'm going to worry about the future when it gets here.

I also had big issues on us wanting different things in the future. I want marriage, he's thinking co-habitating.

Well, I don't want EITHER right now -- so I'm not going to get unglued trying to figure it out. A good friend pointed out to me that I don't know what I'm going to want in 5 years. Perhaps I should wait until I'm a little closer to that to see if I still want (then) what I think I want (now).

Are these decisions emminent? Are you talking about marriage vs. shacking up NOW? Or a year from now? And regardless of how far off it is -- I think your "ILY" issue is the one that needs to get fixed first. I would NOT consider either one with someone who didn't love me. If its just someone who has trouble SAYING IT, well....we can work on that!

Sorry for chiming in so late, but I really wanted to address something:


GG, you've fallen for this man because he treats you better than anyone before, but it's probably easy for him to treat you well because it's likely his nature to treat women well. The problem with him not LOVING you is that when things get rough (especially when you're living together) a person who loves you will stick it out and stay with you through the rough times...someone who admits to not loving you won't.

Not saying "I love you" is an insurance policy for many men. If they don't love you, they don't have to put up with anything even mildly annoying. If you try to call them on it, they say "I never SAID I loved you--YOU should have known"....and so forth...

There's a big price to be paid when you've invested more into the relationship EMOTIONALLY than your partner. I certainly wouldn't make roots with anyone who couldn't sort out their feelings for me. As far as his ACTIONS are concerned, I feel that "acting" the part of a person in love means NOTHING if you can't lay your cards out on the table. After all, to a man who takes out this "insurance policy", actions are subjective...

Be careful...

I completely agree with aeri's every word, most of all the quote above.

I still am a firm believer that being in love with someone who is not in love with you is not healthy, no matter how well they treat you.

Like aeri said, it makes their actions very "in the present", without any added investment on their part. I think after months or years of a relationship, I'd want a bit more than that. Especially if I were deeply in love with the partner, who could not say the same words to me. Big red flag, and likely to blow up at first (or second) sign of trouble, or when some bump in the road appears.

And not to rehash old issues, but how does a 40-something not have a relationship longer than 14 months in his lifetime? That, combined with the "can't say I love you" thing would be three strikes for me.


AGG

exxy, I think my situation is very close to yours. I believe that for M saying I Love You is a momentous event. We’re both on the same page now about marriage versus co-habitation. M’s end goal was always marriage, so it wasn’t too far of a stretch for him to extended the courtship and skip the co-habitating.

Aeri, you’ve managed to put very articulately my fear. I believe my fear is unfounded, but it’s there.

As to me being more emotionally invested, I think I may be a little more invested but not as huge as it felt last week. First, M actually said that “Just because I don’t say it doesn’t mean I don’t feel it.” It could be the words of the “insurance” policy, but I have no reason to believe that based on M’s past behavior. He’s never intentionally misled me in the past. Second, M’s actions have demonstrated an increasing investment in our relationship, with the exception of saying “ILY.”

Call me a fool, but he reassured me.

AGG, I agree that having had no relationships that lasted more than a year is a red flag. But, it’s not a deal breaker for me. There are plenty of men who have had long-term relationships and who are completely messed up. Most of us have had our own issues to work through and what’s important is that we have worked through them. M has shared that he decided about four years ago to stop being a workaholic and focus on his life more. He worked through a bunch of issues then. I know losing his dad in his early twenties had a huge impact on him.

In a lot of ways, M and I complement each other. I have experience of marriage and the pressures and stresses and challenges, but no experience of a healthy marriage. (My FOO was a very bad example.) M. has no experience of how marriage can change everything, but he has a much better picture of how healthy marriages work.

All that said, I’m not ignoring anything. M’s not either.