Oh, and weaver:

I don't think I heard what had happened 2 you back then. I am so sorry!

I continue 2 be delighted at the person you've become. GB 2. You are a terrific pair of people!

-ol' 2long

Well, if Appy won't post here, maybe he won't mind me quoting something he sent me this morning...

"Work!

My first job was working in an orange juice factory, but I got canned, I couldn't concentrate.

Then I worked in the woods as a lumberjack, but I just couldn't hack it, so they gave me the axe.

After that I tried to be a tailor, but I just wasn't suited for it. Mainly because it was a so-so job.

Next I tried working in a muffler factory but that was exhausting. ...

I wanted to be a barber, but I just couldn't cut it.

Then I tried to be a chef--figured it would add a little spice to my life but I just didn't have the thyme.

Finally, I attempted to be a deli worker, but any way I sliced it, I couldn't cut the mustard.

My best job was being a musician, but eventually I found I wasn't noteworthy.

I studied a long time to become a doctor, but I didn't have any patients.

Next was a job in a shoe factory; I tried but I just didn't fit in.

I became a professional fisherman, but discovered that I couldn't live on my net income.

Thought about becoming a witch, so I tried that for a spell.

I managed to get a good job working for a pool maintenance company, but the work was just too draining.

I got a job at a zoo feeding giraffes but I was fired because I wasn't up to it.

So then I got a job in a gymnasium (work-out-center), but they said I wasn't fit for the job.

Next, I found being an electrician interesting, but the work was shocking.

After many years of trying to find steady work I finally got a job as a historian until I realized there was no future in it.

My last job was working at Starbucks, but I had to quit because it was always the same old grind."

-ol' 2long

SS:

Ac2ally, I feel better now than I have in years.

I think my W does, 2.

I am glad your M is improving - abet slowly. I was mostly talking about the problems with the home, and MIL, and SIL. I was hoping that would be over with by now.

SS

Yesterday afternoon, after I'd gotten home early from being dismissed from jury duty for another 12 months (yay), we watched Dr Phil, about the 18 yr old girl who flew 2 Palestine 2 live with her online muslim boyfriend. Dr Phil got her on the phone, and her family kept saying that they love her.

My W said "it doesn't mean anything when they keep saying it like that."

My response? "What does it mean when you don't say it at all?"

I didn't really say that, because it would have been a DJ. I do need 2 convey that, because it bothers me. But not in that way.

It's been 5 years next month since the last time she said ILY. And that was during an argument we had because she'd just said happy birthday 2 RM the week before. So, obviously it didn't really mean "ILY" so much as "don't get mad because I can't let go of RM. Here's a crumb 2 string you along some more."

And the truth is, I haven't said ILY 2 her in almost that long. I'm pretty sure I've said it since, but after getting no response at all, I decided not 2 anymore, because it didn't really mean ILY when I said it, either.

So, ILY needs 2 mean something in order for it 2 be said. But it also really does mean something when it isn't said, either.

I need 2 phrase it like that, I think. Maybe even have this whole conversation with her, instead of you folks! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

What's interesting 2 me is that she watches Dr Phil these days, which often deals with infidelity as a topic. And we ac2ally talk about the evening showings when we're around when they're on.

I can remember, a few months after d-day, hearing some derogatory remark she shared with me about a conversation she and RM had about Dr Phil and infidelity. Things sure have changed.

-ol' 2long

So are you happy in a relationship that's gone 5 YEARS without an ILY?!?!?!

Why do you accept this state of affairs?

Hold both her hands in yours........ smile a really big smile......... say "I love you" and see what she does.

Don't let go of her hands right away.

It could tell you a lot.

Don't expect any thing except for what you can learn.

SS

2long,

Does this have anything to do with her father being an abusive alcoholic? Were words of love spoken in her FOO?

I would shrivel up and die if I couldn't say I love you to my daughter, to my husband and to my family members. Or if I didn't hear it.

I tell my DD every single day how much I love her. And now she says it too, even first, and means it.

Do you tell your children you love them?

2long, you gotta say I love you to everybody you love, often and with confidence. Life is just too short not to, and your spirit shrivels without being able to say those words.

It's all we got, besides actions. Both are so important to do, and to say.

Does saying it so often diminish it? H*LL no. It makes it grow.

For me, I have been reading with interest on the E/N's and Recovery forum everything that has to do with touch as an affection's need. I am VERY verbally affectionate, but with men I have trouble being physically affectionate. GB has mentioned this about me. It is so hard for me to do, but I am learning how, through practice. It is getting easier.

Now I grew up in the military and know my issues with boundaries and men started there. But, luckily my parents were very verbally affecionate.

I wonder if this is where your wife also gets her strange ideas. Her FOO.

I love ya, 2long! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Group hug!

No.


Well, we've both had a lot 2 deal with, in addition 2 killing the A. And since it was such a long, low level A on her part, it's taken longer than most for her 2 withdraw from it.

Houses, lawsuits, and nutball MIL and SIL stuff 2 deal with at the same time, all the time, has kept healthy conflict stuff on the back burner 2.

But really? I'm pretty happy with myself much of the time.

-ol' 2long

I have 2 give this some serious thought. I think I can do it (or some permutation thereof). I just need 2 think about whether I want 2 say it or not. Seriously. If it doesn't mean anything 2 her, really, then what does it mean 2 me 2 put my heart out there like that? Is it worth it? If she really doesn't love me (I don't think that's the problem), then I don't love her (I don't think that's the problem either).

I think what I'm saying is that if I do find out she isn't really as invested in our relationship as I need her 2 be for me 2 want 2 grow old 2gether from here (well, older!), then I might just be relieved 2 know it. Perhaps even enough 2 make a self-fulfilling prophecy out of my motivation for saying it in the first place.

Make any sense? (if it does, maybe you can tell me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

-ol' 2long

Very good question! I think it must. Words of love may not have been spoken in her FOO. Or if they were, she didn't believe in their sincerity. Very good point.


Yes, semi-regularly. So does my W.


I agree, but I think I'm having trouble because I don't believe she'll think it's genuine. In fact, I sometimes wonder if it is, myself. Certainly, I love her unconditionally. But it is also quite true that I don't love her all that much romantically. I've been dealing with 2 many distractions for 2 long for me 2 have much time 2 think about romantic stuff. But I do work on it. I do stuff for her that surprises her, pleasantly usually. And I make a point of remembering things like important dates and making arrangements 2 do something with her that she might like (recently, I've done a couple of things that, when I told her or did them for her, she was surprised and said "that's what I would have done!" - so I beat her 2 the punch in a good way.


My W does think it diminishes when said often. Or maybe, because she's been bringing this up more lately than before, she's reaching for something... ...hm. A discussion, at least, perhaps.


Again, a very good point.

-ol' 2long

Hi SD!

-ol' 2long

It has seemed to me for quite some time that your wife has a distrust of people, and since learning of her father I believe a distrust of men. And from what you are saying a distrust of people even to the point of not believing that what they say is true. Who would doubt the words "I love you" coming from family members to a beloved daughter over seas, after all.

You should not be waiting for a time when you will feel safe to say "ILY". That is not of love, 2long. And even if you question your own romantic feelings, you know from MB concepts that the actions come before the feelings.

Disregarding what your wife did as far as her affair, in this area I think you are negligeable. Because you know better, you have the knowelege, you read all the time about R's, and love, and spirituality. It just doesn't make sense that you would need to wait for a time when you feel she would be receptive.

I understand your ambivialnce, in a way. But you have chosen to stay in this marriage, and go through recovery...so it only makes sense that you would be willing to make any and all first moves. Right? I just don't see the point in waiting for her to give you "the sign".

You must be scared of being hurt again. But being scared is just keeping you either in the same place R whys, or proceeding at a snails pace.

In short, my thoughts are to go for it, without delay. With consistancy, she will come to believe that it is "sincere".

I hope I did not offend with my forthrightness, and if I'm off by a mile...well, just crumple it up and do a freethrow, on me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I wanted also to add that on here I know the weight of recovery is on the WS, but that usually only happens after a Plan B, when the WS asks to come back to the marriage.

That wasn't the case with you. And all along in following your story, you have seemed to chosen a plan where unconditional love, patience, etc is the bases.

So, I am just confused at why you have allowed yourself to stop saying the words. I mean five years is such a long time.

Her not believing in the sincerety of the words just doesn't seem like a viable reason to not say them. I thought leading by example was kind of the plan you had chosen.

I wholeheartedly agree with SS, too, on making the move, getting some insight, but I would go one step further in saying to keep it up, regardless of her reaction. This is how we learn to trust someone. By consistency and repetition.

weaver <<< shutting up now, and getting to work. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

*sigh* this is my morning to sigh, 2long.

I remember the day you met the Fruits and Nuts at Bob's. Your hands were all splattered white from painting the kitchen cabinets. Clues to your identity as loving husband.

It's a lonely journey you are on.

Long terms effects of affairs. I used to think when I was a kid, not really think, but assume, that adults got over hurt feelings, or were supposed to. Now I know different. I know in my gut different.

I really understand the damage affairs do.

I wonder what your wife is thinking, whether she feels lonely, and whether she justifies her affair by telling herself "Look how 2long never says 'I love you' to me. No wonder I had an affair."

[cackles like a witch] If you did tell her you love her, even not getting anything back, it could crumble her justification. Heck, do it for that reason alone! [cackles again]

weaver:

Fair enough. I take responsibility for my inactions all this time.

For reference: After d-day, during arguments and makeup SF during that crazy time were the first time my W said ILY 2 me in 4 years at that point. 4 years was between her As with RM. I remember the day she said it, 2. I was driving, we were on our way 2 the hardware store or someplace, and out of the blue she said "you know I really do love you". I was so floored at the time, because (as I pointed out 2 her in a way I shouldn't have, but didn't know better) it had been over 8 years since the last time (which was before the A the first time). During all that time, and really up until the last time she said it 2 me 5 years ago, I repeatedly told her ILY - she just never responded.

So, I have a lot of my own "it never did me any good before" stigma 2 get past myself.

I am working on getting beyond that fear, or apathy, believe me.

You know, 2? This whole process of reading, thinking, dwelling, not dwelling, staying positive and doing what's right for me and my family can be pretty delicate at times. And as you folks all know, it's the dwelling and the cynicism that it produces, particularly at this stage for me, that presents the greatest potential for real harm.

-ol' 2long

Hi Bellevue!

Yeah, that was that shellac-based primer we like 2 use. Great stuff. Sands well, dries fast. But boy, you really do have 2 have good ventilation!

I was thinking recently (trying not 2 dwell in the process) how fresh the pain of the A can still sometimes be for the BS, speaking of myself in particular. I have some "working back" of my own 2 do: we don't sleep in the same room (and I must admit I like it that way). It's been about 6 months since we had SF. When we were at her OOSP last weekend (sorry SS, didn't have time 2 call you or drop by) 2 close up the house for the winter, I thought about it, but it wasn't the right time for her. She seemed interested, though. My problem is that recently the triggers of thinking of RM with her have come back some. And now, I think I need 2 tell her that before I'm ready 2 try again. I want her 2 understand that I don't feel as though I'm "withholding" it from her as a punishment, but that I want 2 make sure that she won't think I just want her for the SF. And for me, I need 2 not feel like I'm on RM's level when I'm having SF with her.

She said again recently, in response 2 something said on TV, "sex isn't love."

It isn't, but neither is an english muffin with butter and jam. But a lovingly-prepared english muffin with butter and jam can be a delicious part of a nutritious breakfast!

-ol' 2long

...won't think you just want her for the SF -

why you silly fool. You paint the cabinets for her, you drive to the hardware store together, you stand with her through the lawsuit,

OF COURSE YOU DON'T JUST WANT HER FOR THE SEX!

Maybe you could just put your arms around her waist and heave her up in the air, so her feet are off the ground, and swing her in a circle. and tell her you love her. And grin. I know how foolish it can make you feel. I tried being affectionate and loving to my H during his EA. He pulled back like a deer in the headlights whenever I did it. I wasn't brave enough to do it more than a 2ple of times.

BUt heck man you're still in the marriage. What have you got to lose? "Face?" You blinked first? You flinched? Go ahead, say the words, do the actions. Take that excuse away from her.

Bellevue:

I'm not that strong! Meaning, picking her up and swinging her around and stuff...

Well, the subject of ILY being said 2 much such that it means nothing came up again the other night, so I said "Well, I love you a lot, anyway."

She responded with some CA remarks, such that I could tell that there really is some problem behind her feeling that it's said 2 much. But she was cheerful, and held my hand some more. Then yes2rday, we had SF for the first time in 6 months or so.

It was pretty fun, but I find myself feeling the need 2 have another conversation about the pic2re.

Maybe the point here is that we're better able 2 have conversations about personal feelings than we've been able 2 before, but the pace at which we're getting someplace probably is pretty glacial 2 most viewers.

-ol' 2long