2long...fear not! My marriage has been very slow to recover as well. Although my former WW didn't have one LTA, she disconnected from me long ago, and we lived in a marriage devoid of ILY's and intimacy, and productive conversations.

Now, with that said, I still have to be the one that initiates these "new" developments in our marriage; ie, the introduction of MB principals, and trying to create a marriage with more intimacy, conversationally, and SF.

It has been a slow go all along, but not unproductive by any means. The big plus is this...as long as we move forward, we are growing. The pace is irrelevant. Would I like for it to be quicker, sure, but what I have now is so much better than knowing she's in "love" with someone else. If we reach a point where there's NO growth, or we begin moving backwards, then that is a time for concern.

I firmly believe we are on a track to find ourselves in a far better marriage than we had. I'm ok with whatever length of time that takes, and, I'm ok with being the catalyst. It doesn't required the time, effort or energy that Plan A or the first bit of recovery did, and life, overall, is pretty good.

With a LTA in your marital history, I think you may find things going in much the same way. This will, however, put you in charge of being the catalyst to push for growth. So long as you have no pie-in-the-sky need for immediate growth and change, and can endure the slower pace, I think you'll experience much of what I am.

Don't be afraid to be the one to make the 1st, or next move. But if you do push to much to soon, I think you might sense her pulling back a bit. I don't see you falling into that trap, though, with your deliberate and well thought out approach. Just don't be afraid to take some risks, when they don't outweigh the anticipated rewards.

be well,
SD

Glacial is still movement.

And you got some. There are those of us who ain't gettin' any!

And you're still under the same roof.

You're not doing as badly as you think, 2long. You're still married.

2long, If patience is a virtue, you are doing OK.

By the way Belle, what ever happened to "Domestic Goddess?"

SS

2long:

Guess What?

When she'd Dead, you can put it on the ribbon for her bed of flowers.

"I Love You"

And then, you would have WON.

You outlasted her.

Tragic.

So very tragic.

A BOX of your own making.

Sure, she had an A.

But for 5 years, you couldn't say "I Love You"

Oh, well.

What's another 30?

or 2?

LG

lg:

Whiskey tango foxtrot?

Have you ac2ally read what I just wrote?

-ol' 2long

2L:

Yes.

And I'm still floored by it.

But Whiskey Tango Foxtrot as well.

Affection is one of the primary EN's.

Your a friendly, jovial dude.

Think I would enjoy having a beer with you.

But if you told me over a beer that the last time you said to W: "India Lima Uniform" I would have given you a V-8 Slap.

And since you just had a little SF and decided to drop it again, I would give you another one.

That's 2, for ol'2long.

Having the picture up of RM for 5 years, may just be indicating to Mrs2 how long since she has heard the words.

Is that harsh?

Yes.

In many ways, following your sitch, I just thought that Mrs2 was distant and unfeeling.

But. 2? You had an MB road map to get back in.

Affection.

Kind words.

Touching.

You would be surprised how the change in your actions may effectuate a change in others.

And you are reading the words of a final withholder of things, in order to get other things.

That came to a crashing, screeching halt.

But, hey Once a year ain't bad for SF.

Compared to what it was, I guess.

Sorry about the V8 Slap.

But you would not believe how much your holding back with the ILU's is holding you back in other areas....

Until you are past it. Then you will look back and stare in amazement.

Really.

LG

Boy, this makes no sense 2 me whatsoever.


2 what!?


Hardly matters. It isn't even true.


Hm... if you say so.


Seems that way sometimes. She's also very outgoing, and is just discovering that she's been a rescuer all her life - and how THAT has affected her in a negative way. I was the one that made the resource available that made her aware of that. And I did it per her own request.

THAT is one of the most amazing things I've seen in the 34 years I've known her. But prior 2 now, any and all attempts 2 help have been received as educating her.


Sorry, my 2rn 2 be a bit harsh here: MB methods aren't the best in dealing with long term affairs.


You don't think I'm affectionate?


You don't think I am kind, or verbalize it?


You don't think I touch my W when I feel it's right?


I wouldn't be surprised in the least. I see it all the time. I don't expect a particular result, though, and I don't need a deadline.


I have no clue what you just said.


That either.


Are you talking about you, or me? It isn't once a year here. Not yet, at least.


Are you talking about you, or me? "What it was" for me was 2 or 3 times a week before d-day. Probably somewhat less for the first year after d-day, and then maybe averaging once every 2 or 3 months in the past 2ple years.

I need 2 be certain I'm not being viewed as using her for SF when we do have it. We're getting there, but I need 2 be certain.


Didn't feel a thing, frankly. Sorry.


Maybe.

-ol' 2long

2long,

Can you post a link or give me the name of the article? It's on the ILU site?

The reason I ask is last night an amazing thing happened between GB and me along the lines of my being a rescuer, too.

I don't know if you remember I am renting to my younger sister, and have for a number of years supplied her with a house to live in. She had promised to buy the first one from me but then didn't, so I moved her into my big house and moved into the little one to fix it up and sell. She has promised to get a mortgage to buy the other from me now, but has not made any moves so far.

To make a long story short, the rest of the family has pretty much walked away from her and her husband, but I just can't do that. I love her, and she has helped me out of a bind a time or two, and does have a lot of good qualities, but financially I can't win for losing as long as I am carrying them.

So last night, I was really stressed out over the house she is in because I can tell they are not keeping it up. And GB said, you know what? I'll handle it. And I practically started crying because I was having such a hard time with the thought of giving up control, of trusting him to "do no harm", etc.

In the end I said, okay. And today I just feel a hundred years lighter. What a weight off my shoulders. I felt over flowing with love for GB. And now I can stay out of it, and trust that all will be well.

I'm sorry to make your thread about me, but this just really struck me as familiar, and something I have always done with my sister as well as an employee or two who report to me. And even another tenent I have.

And it does have negative impacts on me, and probably them as well, as I don't think they are overcome with thankfulness or anything like that towards me. Not that was ever my goal, by far. I just felt sorry for them, or worried about them perhaps.

My beliefs are such that I cannot feel peace when everyone else in my life is falling down. I am beginning to see that that is not quite the right way to look at it.

2:

This makes no sense? I was in a hurry. Sorry. I didn't add a couple of qualifiers.

If you were to tell me that you had been withholding the "ILY's" from your W for 5 YEARS, I would have given you a head slap.

(That's the V8 reference)

Why? Why so long? I can understand that the road back to a relationship with a FWS can take a long time. Heck, I'm on it.

But saying the ILY is one of those things that smooth out the road.

The more you say it, the smoother the road gets. Even if you do not really see the bumps disappearing.

Can they be used inappropriatly? Certainly, those three words can be used as a weapon, or as a device to keep you from doing something else.

But in this case? Both of you were using them to control one another. By your own admission, you state the the ILY flow freely from both of your to OTHERS.

So why not to each other?

The picture of RM is still up right? If I am wrong, sorry, maybe I missed that page in your thread. 4-5 months ago you were going to do something about it. If you have, I will retract the above statement. But if not, the picture stays as a indicator of the health of your M.

And ol'RM may have said "ILY's" all the time.

And about your response to my MB Road map comment:




2, I understand LTA's, mine lasted 4.5 years. OK? And yes, most of the A's around here are discovered early and dealt with within 2 years. Your W's went on for many years. The road map part was using the information around here to build a BETTER relationship. But you have to pull the road map out of the glove box. And saying "ILY" to your spouse is on that MAP.

And about being Kind, Affectionate, and touching your W: I think you can be all these things. It just seems that you have decided to withhold them from your W. ILY's are a symptom of that.

And NO, you don't need a deadline. When do you think is a good time to start?

The final withholder? That WAS me. I could withhold affection, kind words and other things like no one else. It created chasms in my M. I do not do that anymore. AND my M is thriving. I want that for you. I believe that you need to start saying the "ILY's" on a regular and consistent basis. As someone here described, take her hands, look her in the eye and say "ILY" and see what happens.

And 2, maybe the SF need isn't one of your top EN's. That's cool. Four times a year may be all you need. And using her for SF? THAT is something isn't it? If she FEELS that way, then you have got to change the circumstances of your daily interactions. Because USING someone for SF means that the other person does not want to give themselves to you freely. Which is what needs to happen for the SF to be truly great. But the distance between you two isn't about the SF. It's about the daily interactions and relationship that you have. And not saying "ILY" for so long? A huge symptom. You can take baby steps, but you really need to lengthen the stride.

Or? And I'm sorry, I will bow out if that's the case, Your happy with the sitch, and not really concerned with moving it forward? As you say, no deadlines? Cool. Say the word. I will exit. But YOU understand this MB stuff. I would just like to see you apply some of it.

LG>>> putting away his 2 iron.

PS: It should have been: "India Lima Yankee" not "India Lima Uniform" confused the Y for a U.

Yes. Here it is:

http://iloveulove.com/psychology/psychspirit/thefacesofvictim.htm


This is interesting. We've had something similar going on the past few days, as a result of another letter from my MIL. My W said, just this morning, that she felt a wave of relief, or resignation, about her mom's issue, possibly for a similar reason, but it was both of us taking a stand and recognizing that we simply can't do what she thinks we should do. In the Victims article, she's the life-long victim 2rned prosecu2r because my W has stepped of the drama triangle and abandoned her rescuer role with her mom.


I remember. Similarly, my SIL and MIL stopped paying the rent at our income property, which put us in a serious financial bind so we had 2 get the house sold. Did they ever acknowledge the burden we were under? Obviously not. Not only that, my SIL sued us. And though WE set up the mediation and have stuck by our agreement 2 the letter, they think we're refusing 2 negotiate (really, negotiate a better deal for them). There is nothing 2 negotiate, we're DONE. The letter from her mom is another demand 2 quit claim back the OOSP property that she gave 2 my W over 12 years ago, rather than lose it during her bankruptcy. She also "responded" 2 my W's offer 2 help her with living expenses at her apartment, by sending her copies of credit card bills from the income property totalling over $8,000. There's no name on the bills, and it's probable that they're my SIL's, or that my MIL paid her bills while they were in the income house 2gether, and wants us 2 pay her back. It's all crazy, and really doesn't warrant any response.

The problem with this is that as far as my W and I are concenred, the settlement agreement not only permanently settles all debts between us and her sister, it permanently severs all ties with her as well. But unlike your sister, we've never really gotten along with my SIL, and will not miss her. We've always gotten along well with her mom, though. But we never really realized - either of us - just how dysfunctional even that relationship has always been.


I hope that by being firm but clear about your position (without sharing things that aren't their business), you can get yourself untangled from the si2ation without the "victim" 2rning in2 a "persecu2r" because you've "abandoned" your rescuer role. But do be prepared.


I haven't quite done this myself. Previously, I would have been afraid 2 get between my W and her family. But because this whole thing has impacted my family so much financially for the past 5 years, it's a lot more personal. And because the income house was purchased largely based on my income, I not only am directly affected, I have a responsibility 2 take a firm stand and tell both the MIL and SIL 2 back the eff off. Kindly, but firmly, that is.


This is helpful 2 me as well. I think I may be able 2 help our relationship by doing something similar. Thank you for sharing your story.


No worries! Right On Topic.



Again, be careful. Or at least be aware. Our sitches are a lot more parallel than you might think.


Yes. I hope the "victims" article is helpful!

-ol' 2long

Thank you so much, 2long.

I am sending it to the printer so I can take it home and read.

You know, thinking back, I was at a company workshop where we had to use present tense, personal problems in skits with coworkers to try and brain storm solutions, leaving emotions at the door. By luck of the draw I pulled our VP's name as my skit partner. He had said similar things to me as you just did. He spoke of not allowing others to live up to their responsibilites/choices and the rescuer/victim dynamic also. I didn't listen and now all these years later...still dealing with the same stresses.

Thanks again.

I guess I don't know what legal claim they have to the house. They stopped paying rent on YOUR house. Legally (And I am no lawyer) they should have no right to anything. If they want to play hardball then play hardball back...let the lawyers deal with it. They have no leg to stand on unless they think you will bend over. Don't let them walk all over you!!!

Hi In:

Obviously, they had no claim on the house. We're not dealing with rational people here. Just a pair of blame-shifting drama queens.

We sold that house back in July. We'd mediated a settlement that *we* intended 2 get the SIL out of the house so we could sell it faster and cheaper than addressing the suit and/or counter suing, which very likely would still be ongoing 2day.

The SIL deserved nothing, of course, so the settlement disbursement was 2 encourage her 2 move on.

We expect another ludicrous lawsuit, because she has refused the disbursement. I won't mediate another suit.

-ol' 2long

Hey, 2long...

I don't know if my post got lost in the shuffle, or what, but I did think it was relevant to your sitch. Seems to me you are making progress, day by day.

Hi SD:

Boy, I tried 2 log in a 2ple times yes2rday, but the boards were offline or something when I did...

Sorry for not responding before 2 your earlier post. I agree 100%.

These days, most of our marital progress involves sharing how we each respond 2 the latest nonsense from my MIL. the SIL doesn't contact us at all, which is very nice. But she hasn't done anything since she refused the settlement check in September, either.

Anyway, stuff like this really builds character, depending on the degree of response versus reaction one employs. And since my W still would rather not talk about her A, it give us something "serious" 2 discuss, because we have 2 deal with it at some level.

-ol' 2long

I can't imagine being caught up in a legal snafu like that. Stuff like that really eats away at me. I wish you the very best in your efforts. It does give you and your W a common ground to stand upon, and that can be a positive.

I reference to those efforts... I have had to be the one pushing forward in my sitch from the get-go. However, if I pushed too hard, my W would withdraw. So I have learned to push forward with only some light pressure, and exercising that pressure in subtle ways, so as not to push her away.

You may have noticed while crossing Kansas on your trip a while back that most of the trees lean a bit to the north. Well there's a lesson to be learned about that. Kansas was named by the native Americans as Kanza, translating to "people of the south wind". The summer wind here is constant and can sometimes be quite maddening. It truly causes the trees to lean to the north. That's why I maintain that keeping steady, positive pressure on our W's to move in a positive direction....

A steady wind bends the tree...

SD