Nikko yes NC since 3\06 Thats truth Gilligan

If I truely believe something is it a lie asked BS this asked if wanted me to lie she said no

gilligan---i didnt ask if you had nc....i asked if the ow is completely out of your lives???? is she local where there could be a chance meeting? is her family local? is she out of your lives?

Nikko I misunderstood your question ,they live in the same town my BS saw her car last wk.so it is possible,I am very cautious about making sure I don’t run in to her accidently,sayin a store or something .Jennifer told me what to do in cause that should ever happen and explained that to BS. Bothof us seem to be comfortable with this, however BS saw her in her car I only saw the car, that didn’t bother me what did bother me was BS made a comment then looked at me and DJ me saying that it did bother me ,her comment and reaction is what bothered me.


BS used to say she wanted old me back,tried that once and was ripped to shreds, says OW got what she wanted.
Personally the person I used to be was an over confident,uncaring SOB,whom didn’t deserve anyone, I
Can’t be him and don’t want to.
A comment was made that I didn’t get the fact that I made choices, well I do & have , most of mine I feel have been wrong for a long time. I am taking responsibility for my decisions & actions, failing. I don’t know how to answerwhen the comment is made that the last 32yrs of her life have been a lie and I have never loved her,that’s wrong.I have done so much to destroy her.When I say that’s not true she says I’m a lier I have to be cause I had an A.
I came home from work again today talked to her & just couldn’t be at work today. Here didn’t work either,
She’s talking D.
I can’t change all of the horrid things I did to her, all I can do is make a better future for both of us.
She says it’ll happen again, I know this is untrue.
Last nite BS asked me to watch a tv show called 1wk. To save a marriage.It ended up like a fairy tale,ours is like the nitemares my BS has nitely. 3 times last nite I went into her room(formerly ours) & woke her up aand tried to console her, ( office is next door with computer) since I slept little or virtually not at all.I was in there reading & posting on MB ( as you have gathered I’m Pretty terrible at this).
BS told me again today she wants no more talking cause all ssshe hears from me are lies. I can’t let it end like this. She says when we talk I have generic answers, so are her responses not generic but always the same, with no room for me.
I’m rambling cause I’m lost, I’ll sign off afterI apologize to frog no more for Iding him wrong and again a thanks for those who are trying ot help me pull my head out of OW’s ****y as my BS puts it.


Gilligan

so what did ow get that your wife wanted??

listen....the vile anger is normal. sucks for you, but it also sucks to be your wife. dont give up yet....if she wanted out she would have been gone. this IS your chance.....lets not f-it up, ok? have you made any new appt with jennifer? (ps...i allready know the answer is no....lol) WHY THE ****** NOT????? yes you can continue and should! it will show her commitment. it will show her you are in this.....

so, what did ow get that your wife felt she was missing?

Attention, Knew her feelings exactly,Romance & Intamacy,and ofcourse lots of legnthly SF.Yes I spent a lot of time with OW,whensshe called I usually found it easier to put our things on hold than hers or anyone elses for that matter.Copout nothing or anyone should be more Imp. Than us or our things.
OW told me something about her feelings one nite,I told BS about it ( we were supposed to be their friends RIGHT)BS told me it was the most beautiful thing I ever said Like out of a book ,not In my normal words, I asked her what I said neither of us can remember.
For a long time I didn’t understand what BS meant by Intamate ,now I understand .BS says our conversations about this ccould be played on the local TV with a rating of G.
As far as legnthly SF, I thought my BS knew me after 32yrs. On that subject those 2 words can’t be used in the same sentence. Your right being married to me does probably s***





Gilligan

gilligan......you are having a communication processing problem. with me anyway. where did i say being married to you sucks? i said dealing with her anger sucks, and it also sucks to be in your wifes shoes. i did not say being married to you sucks. this makes me wonder if this is how you process your conversations with your wife. in two posts now you have either not listened to what i asked or turned it into what YOU hear. you may want to think about that....

so....why couldnt you give those things to your wife? why didnt you? your wife feels like the ow got wined and dined and got the best of you....what stopped you from doing those things for her?

i am not here to insult you or call you names....i am here to help you understand your bs better and to think.

Nikko maybe your right everything I do&touch I F*** up . I’m trying with all my heart & soul and everything I have to Help us thru this especially BS. Spent an hr or so this morn talking to her and f*****that up .She’s truly a beautiful wonderful woman that I have ruined.I don’t know what to do Maybe I’m just not smart enough to help even though that is the only thing I really what to do even when she leaves. I call for an appt. with Jennifer to set up IC I see now I really need it.I took BS to work this morn., I just couldn’t go in myself, another bad choice .I have thrown everything away, now a 33yr. Job. Another excellent choice.





G

are you done with the pity party yet?

yes you made really bad choices....now you have another choice to make....man-up or wallow in it.

make the appt with jennifer. and loose the poor me crap.

you also have to get yourself back to work.

AND PLEASE TELL ME WHERE I SAID EVERYTHING YOU DO AND TOUCH YOU F'UP?????? i allready have a hubby who changes what i say into other things...please stop this. you have done it with every post.....stop. if you dont remember exactly what i say....scroll up and look.

now, please do me a favor and write out the specifics....

who is who, ages, kids, how long married, d-day dates, and put it all in your sig line. it will make it easier for others at a glance.

and you didnt answer my questions from the last post.....

Nikko,

With all due respect, and you are due respect. I can see where Gilligan is getting the impression that he has done nothing right in your eyes.

If he gets anything it is that he has messed up big time, and based on the feedback from the W, he continues to do NOTHING right. Heck, apparently he isn't even a good liar, according to her. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

What do you think he should be doing in the face of her complete and continued rejection of his attempts to make amends for his A?

I ask you this not as a rhetorical question, but because as I read his posts, I am not sure what to tell him to do, or even suggest. And you KNOW I am not usually short on things to say. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I look forward to your thoughts.

JL

he should keep counseling with jen, he should write out a timeline of his affair....the honest to goodness truth of it all...purge the heck outta himself doing it cause right now he's got nothing to loose, and it seems he cant keep it straight. that way he can tweek it and fiddle with it BEFORE he gives it to his wife. that way he doesnt continually look like he is changing the facts. he should do the en questionaire(if he hasnt already) and get to work on what his wife needs. and the biggie...he needs to figure out the why of his affair and why he found it so easy to give it all to another instead of his wife and family. he also needs to be 100% transparent and open with his wife....what are you actually doing to re-build trust even if she isnt open to it right now.....jl i could go on and on....but i think this alone is gonna make him wanna run screaming...lol.

d-day for gilligan may have been a year ago but it was the continued lies or omissions that have put his wife where she is. i dont have a clue if she will forgive him but if he is serious he will start doing this stuff and keep plugging away and let mel and pep work with his wife.

and gilligan...you have to give us more info than what you are....you said it all went south with your talk...what exactly happened?

he needs a plan....he needs to stay on point....if we know what he said, then she said we may be able to give him ideas on how to direct the confrontation instead of letting it get to meltdown point.

gilligan...just remember this is to make lifelong changes and it aint easy. but we do want to help....

First I apologizefor saying you said I F***up everything I do&say Those are my feelings.Please excuse me I’m not good at typing and such ,I miss a lot.
Next “The vile angeris normal, sucks for you ,but it also sucks to be your wife” I wrote this out doesn’t that sound a lot like being married to me sucks, I’m not the only one that thought that. I’m not being disrespectful especially to someone like you that is trying to help.
Jen can’t Counsel me already talked to her,but we set up an out line for me to get an IC questions to ask, goals
Goals
Memory or recollection of past someone who has experience with this memory recovery.
Honesty , then and now , how to made it a must.
How to get me not to unintentially evade questions.
Need help rebuilding confidence.
Have a short time line , how long to access me.
Help overcoming communication barriers.
Clarification of the signals I send.
Finances, old and new.
Reason or reasons why after 30 yrs.

This is to get started.Agood idea about a time line , thanks.
Have already done EN Questionair, BS wants nothing to do with it that’s why C stopped. BS’s comment to me and Jen a perfect H now doesn’t mean diddlie cause wants all of questions of A out in the open, not just things like positions.
I will explain the Why’s at a later timeafter I write it all out, sso I get it all.
I am transparent, I believe even tell BS when going outside, showering,everything if I am sstopping at one of the kids houses, to the store for bananas, at least 1-3 calls from work each day(works a noisy place )so she knows I’m there.
I am still doing my EN’s of hers, at least the ones she’ll let me. Can’t say the same for her, no disrespect intended.
I need to get off this machine, BS was on from 645, til 915.,with her thread. I’m so slow at this it’s now 1045.

I’m trying to buck up and do whats right cause she is truly the only one for me.

Ps will add to my file as soon as I can.


Gilligan

what i mean with the vile anger is it is normal and you do want her to get it all out...letting her fester with it is not good. and a time will come where she will have to let it go also. but for now let her get it out....and a resurgeance of anger around the 1 yr mark is also pretty normal.

im glad you are working on the memory recollection. she needs these answers so the doubts and questions in her mind will stop. when the doubts and questions in her mind stop haunting her....she will stop haunting you with them.

honesty then and now and how to make it a must....well you decide to live in honesty and start. if you have conflict avoiding tendancies you get help for that. there are ways to get yourself over that and there is great info on here on dealing with conflict avoidance.

the reason why is a biggie...there are lots of threads on here about that also....do you know how to use the search function?

i dont know what i have a short timeline, how long to access me means? can you clarify that one.

keep plugging at her en's. learn about plan a....plan a is for you to. dont worry about her meeting your en's...right now make it all about her. yours will come in time. right now you have to get her back in the game with you. meet what you can. what are her top en's?

you can do this.....you can do this.....dont give up!

PS>>>good job on calling jen so soon and following thru.

i thought i would let you know i wont be around tonight....i didnt want you to think ive given up on you....

Nikko , no I’m computer stupid.I can barely get this done. Shoooooort time line is I haave little to no time for them to acess me and choose their course of action.
BS top 5 are 1-4 honesty & openness on a scale from 1-10 , 10 most imp. she is a 17 trying to get thru
Conv.7x wk., SF 5-8x wk, affection,admiration. Sometimes hard to fill EN of conv.whenI say your not ugly & gross,her yes I am 6x I say no 5x she says say yes 1 morex& I’ll break this lamp over your head, sshe has achieved Rhonesty, I have a couple of scars to prove itssince this started never would have done this before
She ssspends an hr talking like that.then gets madder &rolls over and goes to sleep anger is something she isn’t keeping on as far as me by then I’m so depressed that I ddont sleep at all (like nite before) or very little ( like last nite)but I’m still in there plugging away 515 to 715 lasst nite her on comp. Got off for me me on 715to 735 she asked if I had plans for the nite I make no plans I ask if wants to due something spec. her comment no you’ll be on MB all nite then says I really have no right to ask you those things ,we are married , just on paper her comment I can’t say anything about present In a conv or it angers her cause I’m here, shes there yesterday was a very bad day for me emotionally back to EN’s top 4 am working extremely hard on conv when she’ll let me, SF won’t let me fill, affection won’t let me fill admiration will let me seldom. by the way top 4 am working on is H&Openes need to go BS needs wake up pills then I have to get ready to go to work more later




Gil

I happened to read your wife's thread, and kept an eye out for you. I read your thread first some time ago, before I saw hers. It's good you're trying to stay on separate threads, at least for now, you're both in terrible pain.

Gilligan, I believe you. I say that because with time and study since my own D-day, I have learned how messed up people can get when under the influence of an affair. I've done my research, not just here on MB but constantly and applied concepts of psych-ology and sociology as well as my personal experience with PTSD, sexual abuse and recovery from it, and drug abuse and recovery from that.

I believe you that right now you are "drugfree" in other words "affair-ftree" and intend to stay that way. But as a former drug user, I know that of every ten people who try to get off drugs, 7 start to doing them again at some point.

I don't know if it's that you are not used to the computer, or if it's that you are still suffering from the after-effects of your addiction (to the other woman and your affair) but you seem to be very confused and a little incoherent right now. Assuming that part of the problem is your newness at trying to express yourself via the computer, there are still some things that are a cause for alarm -- things that Nikko picked up on.

I know it's very hard to not feel pitiful and wretched right now. Since you are obviously remorseful, no one can blame you for feeling as if you've totally screwed up everything you cared about. Well, what's done is done.

Sadly the cost of those poor choices is the loss of your wife's trust. That is devastating for both you and your wife.

At the same time, I'm proud of you anyway. You know why? Because you realize that you messed up, and you are trying to make it right, you didn't leave your wife, and it doesn't sound as if you are blaming your wife for your affair. Believe me there is a lot there to be proud of, some wayward people never do get to even this point. So you see, you have made the choice to be a better man, and to stay married if you can save your marriage. Bravo.

The biggest problem I see between you and your wife is this huge lack of communication. At some point she is going to have to make the choice to try to give you a chance to redeem yourself. Your D-Day was Feb 14 2007??

If that's correct, then it's awfully soon for you to expect her to be able to make a commitment to your marital recovery, she's just too raw and too hurt.

Wow. 32 years. I'm so very sorry.

So I do have to say that your wife is justified in her horrific anger about all that's happened. She doesn't see the other woman as attractive at all, and that hurts, that you seemingly chose the other woman, who is lesser in your wife's eyes, and makes her feel as if you never appreciated her at all. I know exactly how she feels.

I hope you can see how ugly and unattractive the other woman is now, but if you can't, some day I hope you will because that will help your recovery.

The next thing I want to talk about is the fact that you and your wife have terrible boundaries. She made an agreement with you to look at the cc statements with you together, but then she reneged on that agreement. Both of you have to be very very careful to do exactly as you say from now on, that's part of Radical Honesty and Total Transparency. You have the right to call her on that, because by staying in the marriage she has agreed to do some work on recovery, and that requires both of you to be Radically Honest and Totally Transparent, as I said. It applies to both of you because she is at risk to make foolish choices now because she is suffering from post traumatic stress of discovering the affair, and is probably in a deep depression as well. Under these circumstances it is difficult to make good decisions.

Gilligan, have you read and memorized the Harley Basic Concepts? You have the right to take this recovery by the horns and lead it, by setting some ground rules about Love Busters and Disrespectful Judgements and Radical Honesty etc. All the Harley Concepts. You do not have the right, though, to dictate to her what she needs for recovery.

I was a betrayed wife who required all the sordid, gory details of the affair in order to recover. My husband made some mistakes that he now regrets, such as telling me that he would never tell me everything, even though he was willing to discuss sexual positions etc. So I was left wondering what could be so horrific that could be worse? And I began to question ancient history and all kinds of things. After we were far down the recovery road, my husband told me he wished he'd never said that because he says he has told me everything now, but I'll always have that little nagging doubt over whether or not I truly have the whole story. In an otherwise complete recovery that's the one thing that still can become a painful trigger and cause us grief. I actually do believe him, because of his efforts at Radical Honesty and Openness and Transparency since the affair, but it's also the one thing that I can't be totally certain about, and it leaves a scar, where most of the other wounds are well-healed.

What I believe you need to do is write down all the WHOLE horrible story somewhere, for yourself as much as for your wife. Keep it for a few weeks to make sure it's everything.

Your wife needs to know that memories are very fallible when you're on drugs, and believe me an affair is being on drugs, all sorts of natural chemicals are secreted in your brain that gets you hooked on the affair. These chemicals are more powerful than heroin or morphine. This comparison is not a joke and I don't make it lightly. Having been on drugs in my own sordid past, I know only too well, how memory and cognition is affected. There will simply be things you cannot remember. Another component is that with the heavy load of guilt and shame you feel now, there are likely things you don't WANT to remember, and that also makes it difficult to get it all straight. That's why you should write the story down for yourself as best as you can remember it. Writing it down and sitting on it can help to jog your memory and also get it more straight in your own mind so you don't risk not thinking through your answer and making mistakes. Memories are fallible for all of us. Unfortunately mistakes you make and then remember correctly later will just make you look like you're still untrustworthy in her eyes. She doesn't know what to believe. She believed in you, and you did this. Now the one thing she thought she could trust in life is ripped out from under her. You just can't imagine how much that sucks.

One last thing from me and then I have got to go and do some homework. You should not be spending more than a half hour or so on "affair talk" per day. You as the man, have to feel as if there's an end in sight or you will be too uncomfortable to think straight or to tell your story in a meaningful way. You have got to know that you are not trapped like an animal or that you're under cross-examination.

As a betrayed spouse I can tell you that this is very difficult to agree to, because it feels like if you would just tell the whole truth I could get relief from my own torture. But it doesn't work that way. There is no quick fix. Recovery takes a looong time. You have many months ahead to work on it.

So start by memorizing and living the Harley Concepts, and chronicling your affair story, so that you can give her the GodAwfulTruth -- all of it -- as soon as possible. As soon as you feel you have the whole thing ready, you should arrange for a long sit down of a couple of hours for you to share it with her. She should not talk but be quiet while you tell your story. I will have a talk with her about this, and what I think she needs to work on right now.

Don't give up, you can become a man of integrity again. You've taken the first step toward that goal by acknowledging you messed up and vowing to fix and make it up to her.

This is doable.

Thanks Mates4life , DD was 2-14-06, so its been over a year now .I am A free ,and yes I agree with my BW that the OW is ugly, and even though I was a major player in this devastation of my W and our M,I’m dedicated to fixing this,and my W knowing the truth even if she decides that she has to get out. I’ve had some really bad days lately,and go on mostly no sleep.
I lay in bed for hrs while BS sleeps and just look at her and hold her hand if she’ll let me while she sleeps, waking her up when the nite mares bother her.Thinking how I could have done this to her.
I started IC today and have another apt. scheduled for next week ,C asked what my goals were,told him that I needed to get my memory in order for all the things I need to tell BS. I told him how Diff. I am now, told him my D-in law can’t believe I’m the same person now. I told him how I am and he asked me how I was before A my comment to him was I was a B*****d, and I didn’t know how such a wonderful person like my W could have stayed with me all these years . But I am a better person now with still miles to go to be half the man I should have been for her . People like all of you make me want to try all the harder to get to where I should be.
Thanks for the encouragement.





Gil

Confused, Sat eve. Talking about A, I sometimes wonder or drift on this subject. Isay ask questions ,she gets frustrated sleeps down stairs behind locked door, whenshe leaves our room says cant do this.
Sunday nite Says I’m not talking about A , I make comment that I told OW just wanted to be happy , a form of cutting down BS, she says before A or during , during, I think said more than once could be wrong . She gets up says nothing sleeps in same room as nite before. Monday nite after C came home she helped me with my post on MB, asked about nite before why she left, you just went from friends to sex nothing in between. And said she hasn’t been taking meds, forgot. Always asks me if I remember anything we talked about during A.
Tues nite on MB late not much talking. Me no sleeping like tonite.Wed nite came home she asked what planned for tonite lets eat then spend 1 hr on taxes ( haven’t looked at a single paper yet) appt. on fri . then lets talk after that.and afterthat, late I’ll do invoicing for business. Her comment won’t be time to talk, so forgot taxes and talked, mostly I told her wanted to set up a time line ,her comment all you have to do is spend a few hrs talking and it will be over, don’t understand why you won’t do that.
After an hr. she said hrs up, walked into bdrm.I sorted tax papers for an hr or so . Then I went to offiiceand did Invoicing,came in said who were you talking to on phone, called in CC # so I could ship to a customer.
Got done went took shower got in bed I said I want to talk ,didn’t go well, mentioned time line said you didn’t need a time line to talk to her Intimately or have an A, We don’t talk Intimately, never have, my comment if you heard me talk to her like that thenA shouldn’t have taken so long to find out , I have the same spots now about Int. talk as did then I never would have let you hear me talk like that to her cause you would have known , or did I misunderstand you , no answer asked again this time said yes. I said Please explain dead silence was all I got. I told her want to get past this, I know I have a long way to go. Put me on the spot and ask me some questions ,I can’t you have to make that time line. I said I just don’t want to miss anything and be called a liar again, go ahead and ask ,I Just CAN’T was her comment.
Then sshe DJ’d me again for the 20th time and said you can’t talk about it without a time line it was just to traumatic for you to deal with Having an A.I got upand left the room she said I’ sorry that was a DJ, which she said she wasn’t going to do during our talk.
I don’t understand , she wants the whole story start to finish nothing left out but wwhen I try to talk to her she gets mad cause I miss things, or get sside tracted with other questions or comments some of them being brought up by her.
I saay something wrong it’s a lie, or a DJ , she says something its not a lie or DJ its her opinion, like she knows I’ll have another A. No I’ll not put myself thru this again .I told her later that I didn’t want to wait to to talk till fri but have to get tax info together, if you help maybe we can talk tomorrow nite after that, I’ll start my time line at work tomorrow , if I caan get it done then we can talk till we get thru the whole thing , she rolled over and went to sleep. Well here I am again 3 am no sleep and leave for work at 630,after I wake her give meds make coffee and get dressed.
She’s frustrated with me I know that, no more than I am. Words of wisdom? I wouldn’t be here if I didn’t want this to work with all my heart.






Gilligan
Ps there are still a few why’s and questions I haven’t gotten to yet but I will

We're still here, G. Hang in there. For the moment you're going to have to give her some time. She's pretty confused and angry right now. I'm trying to have a talk with her about some of this stuff. Others will give her support, I feel I need to give her a 2x4. I would do the same for you, Believe It.

Gill,

The idea is there needs to be ground rules for this.

You and your FWW should OPENLY Communicate about that first.

I know it sounds crazy but reading your guys threads is not easy. I think someone else pointed it out "getting information out of both of you is like pulling teeth.

So the one and only ground rule I see for these conversations is it is one hour.

Someone suggested clock resetting. If you have to stop and think for 5 minutes then she gets 5 more minutes.

In my sitch we were given an hour and My FWW did exactly what it seems you do. Say the same thing over and over.

My perception was simple she has memorized her script and she knows if she deviates it could cause problems.

Take the time to start writing down. Really show her you are willing to explore what happened and figure it out.

Show that you are being as Radically Honest as your memory will allow.

Do not cop out and say I thought about it and that is all I can remember. Put as much effort into it as you can.

Finally I still have resentment toward my FWW over her lies and lack of memory.

I know my FWW really can't remember everything she could have is she were honest on D Day. I also know if you tell yourself a lie long enough you start to believe it.

So in a sense in my mind she got what she wanted which was not giving me a full account.

I can say you made a mistake and one day if your M ends in a D you can either say. I had an A and I did everything I could to recover and it didn't work out. Or I had an A and refused to give my FWW a full account and I got a D.

Which sounds better?

I know which one I would want to say.