Thanks... I always thought I was a strong person until this happened the first time.
I guess the advice is not to ask anymore?
I'll just be low keyed until I go into plan B. Although I don't think I will get a reaction when I pull away because I really think that is what he wants. Me to be gone.

SH01

Read this thread from beginning to end. You are coming full circle. Basically at the beginning of the thread you are reaching out for the whys and what-ifs, then you are talking about TMing him, emails and phone calls to him (needy). Then PEP gives you the advice you need, you agree and THEN BAM you start the whole process of the needy behaviors all over again.

I just don't think that being kind to him is the answer no matter what your history (kids, love, holidays, etc.). I think he needs a good plan B and you need to see a therapist twice a week and go to some womens groups too if you have any around. I'm not one to barf out advice to just anyone but I've followed this whole thread and you are in a cycle.

I'm in a cycle too but it's different. I'm breaking it. Not to say that I'm the picture of success, no way. But if you expect different results you have to try different responses, in this case none at all.

Take care.

Let me ask you this - do you honestly think you would get an honest, mature, sincere answer like you are hoping for?
It doesn't sound like he has been giving you any great, heart felt conversation lately, so I can not imagine that you would get any good info from him now.

When we ask why he says he did this - we are looking for some of the words that may have come out of his mouth when he first left. Not that we would believe everything he said - but there is usually some sort of insight into what is going on. Honestly, I think if you ask him if he read your email, and thought about it, he is likely to roll his eyes and say "what do you want me to say?" and if you ask him why he did this again he is likely to say "I was not happy. ok? I have said it before, now would you just let me go on with my life!"

I don't know your H - but I know the standard script that is spoken by all WS's.

I can see in your posts that you are really starting to gain some wisdom in all this. You mention the fact that your self esteem is really low. No wonder why! You have been pooped on twice, by the one who is supposed to support you through everything! But that doesn't mean you deserved ANY of it. Just be cause you feel un-worthy, does not mean that you are un-worthy.

You are a human being. A woman. A mom. Your desire is to love, and be loved. You care for others. You are kind. You want to seek Gods will in your life. These are all great qualties, and the next man to share your life with you will appreciate that. And that next man, in your life, may be your repentant H. Or it may not be. But the bottom line is this - you deserve to be treated well - and if this current man can not step up and treat you well, then he can move on. Do you want to live this way for the rest of your life?

I don't want to take a lot of time dwelling on the fact that you are not too old - you would not be alone for ever - there are plenty of 45 year old men looking for someone who would love them dearly. You are not ready for that yet.

But lets look at some facts here - you say that you aren't ready for plan B becauce you want to be loved - is your WH really providing that for you right now? You say that you don't want to be lonely - are you getting a lot of good quality time with him?

To answer your question above - you still sound too needy! But you are getting a lot better. Good for you! Don't ask him to call you back - you can't control that anyway. if he wants to call - he will. If he doesn't want to - then it doesn't matter if you tell him to or not, he still won't do it. Don't tell him you will save dinner for him. invite him, and then get off the phone. In fact, you should try to be the first one to get off the phoen with him. Start working on saying things like "thanks for calling, but I am in the middle of something right now, can I just talk to you later?" you are in a great position for this - he will not expect it, and he will wonder what you are up to!

Here is the thing - you are saying that you don't want to give up, don't want to fail at your M, etc. the reality is that your WH is working towards a D. His actions are all pointed in that direction. NOT because of anything you did, it his own doing. So you don't need to measure your every move, and every word, as if you are going to suddenly make your M fall apart. You don't need to hang onto every phone call, and every chance meeting when he drops off clothes for you son, as if you could just grab him and make him stay. His actions, right now, are the actions of someone who has all ready checked out of the M.

that does not mean that this is over! A lot can happen still! But what it does mean is this - quit worrying about every little thing you do - as if you have the power, the control, to make him stay. Instead, build a good life for yourself. The life YOU want. filled with love and happiness. Good times with your kids. Lunch with friends. things that you like to do.

And then, if your WH pulls his head out, and wants to be part of your life, then you can decide if you will let him or not. But your happiness, your future, your life, does not depend on him. it depends on you. And the funny thing is - when you do take control of your own life again, when you do start having fun wtihout him, and quit hanging onto his every word, that is when you will become hugely attractive to him.

Soon,
I have a housefull of kids from my daughters swim team and your words bring tears to my eyes. Many times it takes someone from out of the circle to really see what's going on. Your right I was stronger at the beginning of this thread. I think I'm getting more desparate because things seem to be out of my control. And I know I know I have NO control over his actions only mine. It's telling my heart that. I mean I'm an educated proffessional (not a great speller) and do well in my job. But in this situation I feel so dumb. This is definately not things I would tell my daughter to do if this was happening to her. So that knowledge that neediness isn't attractive is something I know but just having a hard time not doing. Does that make sense?
I do see my IC weekly and I won't be able to see her again till after our mediatin on the 21st. Being kind is just in my nature... alrhough the kids ate me out of all my home made sauce so none left for WH.
Tonight I will break this pathetic cycle I'm in. Thank- you for pointing it out to me. I am a slow learner and patience is not one of my good qualities.

SH01

WOM,

I needed to print out your post so I could answer your questions. I am getting so much quality advice and I realise it doesn't seem like I'm following it. I am absorbing all the info and trying to get it straight in my head.
I was hoping he would answer me honestly... but he still lies by ommission to me. And now that I think back on many of our "heartfelt" conversations it really was only me that was talking. I think I was trying to make more of it then it really was. My little flicker of hope was trrying to stay lit.
The why's he told me when he left is was he wasn't happy and hadn't been for awhile. That he couldn't stand to be around me. That I disgust him. He couldn't stand looking at my face in the morning. All this is sooo very hard to type. I know you can imagine how much that hurt. I'm crying now just remebering this. He said some very cruel things. And I also said cruel things back. I feel I was telling the truth... he was a lier and cheater. How can he look himself in the mirror. I hope our son doesn't turn out like him. The usual LB's.
I "know" I don't deserve the way I've been treated... but deep down inside I think maybe I do. And I realise that I was being emotionally abused by the person who is suppose to be my soft place to land.
I don't want to live this way anymore. I want to be happy. The age thing does bother me... I think even more because he left me for a younger women. She was 2 when we graduated from HS.
You are right he has emotionally been out of this marriage for a long time. And I have just been hanging on, This is out of my control and is completely in his control. But he can't control me any more. I am going to try my best to take this advice and reread it every day.
I am going to get stronger and may need to go into Plan B sooner than I thought. I will get through this and be able to hold my head high. That's what I am working for.
I pray it's not over, but I do not want my old M back I want a better one.

SH01

WH just left and I think I did pretty good.
Although he arrived just as I opened my silverware drawer and had 2 beedy eyes staring up at me... lets just say I don't know which of us was more scared. Just thank God the kids from the swim team were gone by this point.
He helped me try to catch it and set a trap so hopefully in the morning we have one less mouse. I live near a field and with the cold they are always trying to get in.
I told him everything was gone except one meatball and he could have it if he wanted. So he got one meatball out of me tonight. We talked a little about whats going on for the weekend etc... and I left it at that.
I didn't remind him that I wanted him to call. And I felt pretty together while he was here.
I doubt he's going to call and if he does I just say it wasn't a big deal didn't mean to amke it sound like it was. He knows the door is open if he wants to work on our M by what I've told him and my e-mail. Now I need to leave the ball in his court until I'm ready to go into plan B.
Thank-you to everyone today and yesterday you all have been so helpful, I'm feeling stronger tonght. Hopefully it will last a few days at least until after Valentines day any way.
Just wanted to update everyone.

SH01

Hey,

I know this is a great loss for you. Truly I do. I have a lot of empathy for you and know what it's like to be told by the person you are supposed to feel safest with that he can't even stand to look at you. We could pick apart everything that has happened and been said by our WS but at the end of the day we are wasting our time.

By the way, I'm not much of a speller either and I don't care! LOL

I read a lot of negative statements in your posts. I'm not judging them, I just think you might want to be aware of them. I know for me it only makes things worse when I'm mean to myself too. If we can't be nice to ourselves then who will be?

Don't hate yourself because of your husbands path k! Stay on your path and do whatever it takes to love yourself. That's what I'm doing. We can do it together! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Take care.

Soon,

I really don't hate myself.. I think I'm starting to PMS. I always get very emotional this time of the month if you know what I mean.
Today I realise my husbands path is his own... not mine. I did not make him break our vows. He did that.
My path right now is to plan A a little longer than a dark plan B. I did a lot of thinking last night remembering things about him I didn't like. Things I don't think will change.
It's funny he came by just a few minutes ago to pick up son's clothes. Asked if he would like a galss of wine, Got the are you kidding look again. I'm proud of myself I dropped it. Then he asked who moved the kitchen table.... this is a man who can be very anal at times about furniture being moved. I wanted to scream who cares!!!! But I didn't.
I would love to help each other on the path to self love. Right now I'm enjoying a glass of wine some spinach dip and MB.

SH01

Still,

Please consider using the first part of your name and be "still". You really need to stop focusing on him and focus on yourself, your family, your job, and your life.

Have you heard the word "fog" used around here? If so you realize that while he is in the "fog" reasoning with him will do know good. Begging him will actually push him away. Being someone that engenders sympathy will push him away. Being hurt will not draw him to you but push him away.

This is why it is called the "fog". Normal actions and reactions are not in play in the "fog". What he would normally do, and how he would normally react, are almost reversed.

The advice you have been getting is spot on, but you need to understand why it is spot on. It is because he is in "the fog", where all logic as you know it, I know it, the people here know it is suspended.

Harley, points out the most affairs end, usually within 6 months almost always within 2 years. Your job is to survive with some love left until the affair ends and the "fog" lifts. You don't have to be mean to him, you don't have to cut him out, but you also don't and shouldn't cater to him.

The plans here are to show that there is a path back, plan A, and then preserve your love for him for as long as you can, plan B. You cannot out logic the "fog", so stop trying.

Be kind, be firm in your boundaries, be open, but be focussed on your life, and your children's lives. Enjoy the kids activities, you don't want to miss them. Focus on them and let him deal with his issues and affair and its fall out.

You are still young, 45 is YOUNG, trust me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> You have a life to lead, and many things to do and accomplish, do those things and don't try to punch "the fog", it is really not there and it sure is not logical.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

My WH is in a fog and at times I think I am also. I am trying really hard to stop focusing on him. But he has been my main focus for many years.
Being a mom and a wife we always put ourselved last. It's a hard mold to break. I am starting to get used to being by myself and relaxing. Being able to watch what I want and have quiet in the house.
I want to be focused on my life, my kids. And I'm trying really hard to get get there.
And I am going to try harder not to try to make my WH think logically,,, he just can't right now, And he may never be able to. I need to not let that be a concern of mine. The concern I have is that his choices and fog affect the most important people in my life... my kids. At times I really hate him for that.
I realise I'm not ready for retirement at 45 but with everything this past year it was my hardest B-day.

Still

I finally had a good night sleep last night!!! I can't remeber the last time I had that. Could of slept longer but needed to drop DD16 off at the HS at 6:15am to get the bus for the big swim meet today. Her last chance to qualify for the states in the Individual Medly. She's 0.17 seconds off!!! Keep fingers crossed everyone.
Last night a good friend came over one who supports me in whatever I think I need to do. Last week when I was mooning over WH, she said what can I do to help. Last night she let me vent and reminded me how bad things were and how much he hurt me the last couple of years. How he has seemed empty for so long... and this one will only fill him up for a short time and he'll be on to someone else. That he is showing no remorse and thinks I'm here as a back up. Asked what can I do to help you start your life without him.
She know that I still want my M, but I NEED (not needy) a H who is able to love and show love. Hopefully WH will become that man. He is so far from that right now. I'm ready to do a real plan A... work on ME and not just try to do things for him. I finally understand.... work on me and my changes will shine through and if he wants to come back it will be on my conditions not just because I'm lonely.
Feel really strong today the rollercoaster ride is going up now yeah.

Still

Well I found out definately last night my WH does not wish to put D on hold..doesn't think it will change anything. Doesn't want to come home.
I told him that I've been trying to understand what he is going through
He said it's difficault...he realises that 2 of his 3 kids hate him right now. I told him that could be changed.
He told me he likes the changes he has been seeing in me.. I wish I knew what these changes are. I told him that I believe in us and I believe in him and we could have a wonderful M with hard work. He told me he has feelings for someone else (at least this time he didn't tell me he was "in love" with her). I told him at times I was attracted to others also (just never acted on it..didn't say that).
That we could work on this if he would stop seeing her and give us another chance.He told me that I would never trust him...I told him trust can be earned back. It was late and he had to eat supper but he did call me back to say goodnight.
I did ask him to come to dinner tonight for DS 14th B-day. Not sure if he will but the invite is there.
I did e-mail him this morning thanking him for blessing me with our wonderful son. Don't think I will hear anything back.
I saw my MIL, FIL, SIL last night at my son's hovkey game and my MIL asked me if my youngest D was talking with her dad. I told her she has a lot of anger and lost alot of respect for him. And while he continues with this person she will always feel she broke up our family. I also told her this isn't something I want, that I still love her son and want to save my family if I can.
I'm just struggling with the why .... why did he do this again... why do I want him back.... why can't I stop this.
Mediation is next week and I don't look forward to it. I don't think it's going to be pretty.

Still

Do you plan on going to Plan B? His response to seeing the changes, and your honesty about WANTING him home are good intros to Plan B...

SL,

Yes I plan on going into PLan B in early March. It just hurts so much seeing him. Do you really think that's a good intro? I hope so.
What I'm most afraid of is him not caring! But the point behind it I know is to get out of the triangle. I'll keep letting him know that we want him home.
The only thing I'm not quite sure what my plan B letter should include... since we are in the process of divorcing. Any ideas?

Still

I think that you should continue Plan A, when he's around. Show him what he will lose by working on yourself, REALLY working on you. Caring about you, respecting you. Continue to show him the way, then, when you are ready, go to Plan B.

About the letter, will you BE divorced by March? If so, I would make a separate post regarding Plan B after D.

SL,

No I won't be divorced by March... too many things to work out. I think I may drag my feet also. We will only have our first mediation next week. My attorney mentioned the divorce should be final this year.

So in my Plan B letter do I not mention pending D?

Still

Just catching up on your thread. You are sounding so much stronger! Good for you!

That comment he made about not being happy for a long time – and how he can’t stand to look at you (by the way – shame on him for that!). That stuff is classis WH talk. I heard it too.

It hurt at first – and I even believed it. But as time went by I began to remember all the times when I KNOW he was happy. And I started to realize that some of the things he was saying were just too ridiculous to be true. We went on a trip to Greece which he loved at the time – but later, when he was mad about something else, he spouted off about “and another thing, I HATED that trip to Greece” and I could start to see his ridiculous comments for what they really were – Fog talk.

In your case – that crap about how he can’t stand to see your face – that is his guilt – plain and simple. His guilt bites him every time he sees you. You will notice that when he is around you he looks at the floor, or at the wall above your head. That is not you fault – that is his own rotten guilt. The WS honestly thinks that if you just went away, the guilt would disappear. But it won’t.

The best thing you can do is continue to be polite, continue to love your children, go to swim meets, do all the things that bring YOU happiness. And let him do his own thing. I would even suggest that you stop inviting him over for dinner. I know this advice is different from the advice being given to Lilsis right now – but I think your situation is different, your WH is taking advantage of you and has no remorse at all. As you prepare for plan B, I would suggest you start getting ready right now. Each day take a little baby step. You are no longer asking him to call you, that is the first baby step. Now, don’t invite him over for dinner. It will take him a couple of days, but in time, he will wonder what is happening, and he will wonder what is going on. I am not suggesting that you are mean to him, or love bust. I am just saying – don’t invite him over for dinner. Invite your friends, the swim team, your sons friends, etc. Let him see that you are having fun – a good life. Show him that you are fun to be with – many people desire your company. And he will wonder what is up. (if he happens to be at the house when you are getting ready to eat – by all means invite him to stay. But don’t specifically invite him over)

He noticed that you moved the table? Great! Move more furniture. Paint a whole room. Show him that your life is going on still, that you plan to be happy, to have fun. The idea is to send him a clear message – you plan to have a good life. You would like to have it WITH him, but if he continues with the D, then you will have a good life WITHOUT him. You will be fine – it is up to him to decide if he is going to continue to destroy his own life or not.

Baby steps. Each day, do something for yourself.

I am not saying that you should be mean to him. When he calls, still speak kindly to him. If he tries to talk about the D, remind him that you only discuss M, not D. That if he wants to talk D, he will need to call your attorney.

He needs to start understanding what life will really be like after the D. Right now he has some distorted view – that he will suddenly feel guilt free, you will still be his friend, the kids will suddenly get over their loss, and all will be happy for him. That is a lie, from the pit of he11. And it would be good if he started seeing the reality right now.

WOF,

Thank-you so much for checking in on me. I do feel stronger than last week. And you are so on... about not being able to look me in the eye. He just came over for a piece of cake and to drop off my sons B-day present. And he would barely look at me.
And I will stop asking about dinner and such because it seems to rub him the wrong way. And the few times the house was bustling with friends and he stopped by you could see it bothered him a little. So I need to show independeance as opposed needing him to do things for me? I think I can do that. I just wish I knew what the changes I've made that he liked.
I am still being sweet to him... a little flirty I just want him to remember me being happy when I go dark.
I know it will be a long time before my daughters get over this. Especially if he does end up permantly with her.
It's awful some of the thoughts we have... last night while I was driving to my son's hockey game I wondered if they got married if he would ask my son to be his best man!!! I really don't think I could handle that. But I'm putting the horde before the cart.
By the way my DD did qualify for the states last Sat.

Still

Would like comments about my "rough" draft letter.

Dear M,

This is a very difficult letter for me to write, one that I have been composing in my head for several weeks. I am writing this letter with the true love that only a wife can have for her husband. Please read every word I have written, for it's from the heart.
I want to acknowledge and apoligise for my part in the failure of our marriage. I know many times I negeglected to give you what you needed. I wasn't there for you always the way a wife should of been. I know my stubborness had created many arguments between us. I neglected to hear your dreams of our future. It didn't seem to you that I appreciated the things that you did and made you feel you like a failure as a father and husband. I am so sorry for this. I understand that this had created an atmosphere where an affair could happen. I've told you this before and I want to tell you again that I am willing to work and create a new marriage where we can both be satisfied. I would really like to put the past behind us and work towards the future together. You have told me you like the cahnges you have seen in me recently... I want you to know that I am working hard on these changes to become a better person and wife.
The past 5-6 months have been the worst in my life. I have suffered trmendous pain from seeing our marriage fall apart, learning about your relationship with S.B. and dealing with our impending divorce. I have never stopped loving you and I have'nt forgotten what a wonderful man you are and how much joy you brought into my life. The flicker of hope I had of us reconciling has helped some, but my flame is just about out, the pain is just to much for me to bear.
I do not want this divorce. I want to be your wife in every sense of the word. I want to hold you, talk with you, laugh and cry with you. I want to grow old and welcome our grandchildren together. As much as I want this you have made it very clear that you don't, and as long as you feel this way I cannot be apart of your life except as the mother of your children. Therefore I'm asking that you respect my decision to have no contact with you. It hurts me to much to see you and not be able to be your wife. I will never prevent the children from having a relationship with you. If you need to contact me please go through A and she will get the message to me.
If down the road you have a change of heart and decide you would like to give our marriage a chance I am open to discussing this with you and working on a plan to restore our marriage. I will need to know that you are committed to this and that SB is completely out of your life. I still love you and still believe in our marriage and am willing to work hard together on our marriage, but until that time please respect my wishes.

All my love,

Still

Hi SH01,

I have read your whole thread....and your PBL, and since you asked me, I will read it again for some additional thoughts...but I wanted to give you very quickly my first 'impression'...keeping in mind that a WS will be reading this...but hopefully more experienced Mbers will chime in..as I still feel like a newbie!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

1. Too long - a WS has a very short-attention spam so I would shorten it: reduce it to 3 max 4 small essential paragraphs...

2. You're taking on too much responsibility for the 'failure of the marriage'....and giving a WS a lot more fuel to 'justify' his A with OW: certainly let it be known that you were not perfect, that you are prepared and willing and are making changes but I would not go into 'specifics'...a WS does already a very good job of 'rewriting' history....no need for BS to help!

sorry...but I have to go....but will look closer at letter later....

One thing to remember....you go into PLAN B because, although you would prefer a R with S, but given HIS absence..... would PREFER being ALONE...rather than be in a R with a.....selfish, self-centered WS.... and are ready to stick to your guns about it... because it will mean N/C with WS.....and both you and WS will be tempted to find excuses to break PLAN B.... as both of you will be in WITHDRAWL of each other!

Hang in there...SH01....it does get better!

....because in my signature line....'PLAN B...for my own sanity'....is meant to be taken literally! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />