I think it means he can't handle being labeled "the bad guy" and that he wants you to file for divorce so YOU can be "the bad guy." Can't you protect yourself financially if and when he files for divorce? I don't see why you have to be the one to file in order to protect yourself financially. Anyway, it doesn't seem like there's much danger of him filing any time soon...

Drop this loser sooner than later IMO. What some kind of crap coming out of his mouth....bible, AFFAIR, God, AFFAIR.

This guy is fogged out of his mind. God will not be mocked and I would not want to be him and OW in the future. You hang in there as long as you feel necessary but I would go and get at least something in writing for you and your daughter. (temp full custody, financial support, child support, no OW around daughter in writing, etc) Can you get a LSA without going straight to D?

TAKE CARE OF YOU AND YOUR CHILD AND LEAVE WH AND OW TO GOD, IMO.

Hopeandpray, she already said that he refused to sign the LSA and wants to force her into filing for divorce. There is a child to consider in all this - why shouldn't she try to work her plan A and give her marriage a chance like others on this board with similarly fogged out husbands have (e.g. LilSis)?

Orchid: U did? Too funny. Yea expect a backlash of more babble but it may take a while. Logic travels slower through the fog. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Now that we have you seeing things from a different and more supportive perspective, r u ready to work on a plan for you?


Orchid: The mindset (or lack thereof) of a WS includes his need to control and inability to do even their own dirty work. If the WS can get the BS or anyone else to enable the A, they will spend most of their energies doing so. This is what makes it classic. Mine did the same thing, until the day he slipped and made the comment that 'as long as you allowed me to use you, I would have....forever.'

Wow! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Big revelaion!! Ok, that mental slap was a major wake up call. As much as the WS babbled, I knew he meant this one. Instead of beating me into submission or depression, it made me fighting mad. From that point on, I expended energies in a constructive way NOT to enable the A.

This meannt, stop paying his bills (his credit cards), stop doing his laundry, cooking, arranging my schedule to suit his needs, taking his client calls, even going to work with him (at the time he worked 3 jobs - including driving a limo which I was asked to do a few times and some courier deliveries). This was in addition to my already 60 + a week job.

My pull back was felt immediately. Of course it was because he relied on me for more than he ever wanted to admit. I knew it but thought being supportive meant killing myself??? How stupid of me. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Hence a new and stronger Orchid blossomed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> One that was A resistant. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

My mind and heart were in sync and moving forward was done on MY time with MY decision and NOT from suggestions or prompting from the WS. I moved forward when I was ready and NO credit went to the WS. Of course this made him crazy and a whole new set of demands came knocking on my door. But that's another story.

Work on getting your mind and heart in sync so you can move forward when you are ready. Secure your finances. Identify your personal and marital boundaries. Strengthen your personal support group and know many persons and many things can make up that support group but all don't need to know all. Just enough to give you the support you need.

For me, I told my family, mc, doctor, dentist, friends, co-workers, son's school, day care and neighbors that I needed and appreciated their support but requested they respect my decision. I even told the utility, credit card and insurance companies when I had to make late payments. They were quite understanding. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L.

Just want to condense this down:

I think you need to EXPOSE.

He's comfortable in his little cocoon of la-la-land right now because his sordid affair has not been exposed to the light of day. He's somehow justified his behavior in his mind as being God's will... I don't think OTHERS are going to see it that way!!

Hey SG, sorry that you are here but this is a wonderful place..I was reading your thread about AD..I used to take 20mg of Lexapro too and when I started going thru this crap, my depression got worse. I talked to my doc about it and she changed me to Effexor. It has been a life saver...wonderful. It has gotten me out of bed, reduced my anxiety, reduced my depression, taken the edge off, and given me a lot more motivation than I had just 3 weeks ago. You might wanna look into it. I feel for you and will keep you in my prayers.

[color:"red"] [/color] ORCHID, You said...

U did? Too funny. Yea expect a backlash of more babble but it may take a while. Logic travels slower through the fog.
Now that we have you seeing things from a different and more supportive perspective, r u ready to work on a plan for you?

Just wanted to let you guys know that he did send a response to that last email I sent him. Wanna know what it said?? Get this, "Poo Poo, Pee Pee". That's it! I kid you not. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> I think he KNOWS deep down inside that the things Orchid mentioned are all true, and he was at a loss for words. So...he decided just to say something completely stupid just to annoy me.

Also, YES I'm definitely ready to work on a plan for me!! Any advice would be much appreciated! I'm really confused now about whether or not Plan A or Plan B would be best at this point, so I could really use some help with that.

FIATFLUX, You said...
Just want to condense this down:
I think you need to EXPOSE.
He's comfortable in his little cocoon of la-la-land right now because his sordid affair has not been exposed to the light of day. He's somehow justified his behavior in his mind as being God's will... I don't think OTHERS are going to see it that way!!

He already got fired from his job because of the OW"s husband (now exhusband) exposing their affair to their work place. She didn't get fired, but got put on probation. Just within the past week or so, she apparently left to go work at a different job. So...can't expose to their employers and family already knows, so I'm not sure that there is anyone else left to expose their affair to.

HOPING68 said...
Hey SG, sorry that you are here but this is a wonderful place..I was reading your thread about AD..I used to take 20mg of Lexapro too and when I started going thru this crap, my depression got worse. I talked to my doc about it and she changed me to Effexor. It has been a life saver...wonderful. It has gotten me out of bed, reduced my anxiety, reduced my depression, taken the edge off, and given me a lot more motivation than I had just 3 weeks ago. You might wanna look into it. I feel for you and will keep you in my prayers.

Thank you very much for sharing your story and telling me about how well Effexor works for you. For right now, I'm feeling pretty content with my Lexapro, but if I decide it's not working good enough, I'll definitely consider switching to Effexor. [color:"red"] [/color] [color:"red"] [/color]

I'm feeling really torn about whether or not Plan A or Plan B would be best for me at this time. If some of you could give me some advice about this, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks so much.

I was just looking through old family photos of WH, DD and I, and it almost made me start crying. Especially our wedding pictures. We look so happy together in them. How I wish things were different right now. I can't stand the selfish, lying, cheating man that WH has become, but I sure do miss the "old" him. He USED to be a really good man. I'm not quite sure what happened. I never would have dreamed back then that he could have changed so drastically, and for the worst. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

You miss your real H and rightly so. This WS, makes you feel what? Depressed, frustrated, mad??? Which one or what one best describes you?

See your mind and heart must be in sync B4 implementing plan B. So you are confused which plan to be in..... you are not ready for plan B.

So let's talk.... what other self improvement do you think you need to make to finish plan A?

As for the WS' e-mail...typical WS can't give a sensible reply. You may need to get those adult size 'Depends' - LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yea....give it to him and say, is this what you meant in your e-mail? LOL!!! I would but not to say you should.

L.

L.

I recently found out my future husband has cheated on me. It's been almost 1 month since I found out and I'm not sure what to do. We both work for the same company but in different offices. He was cheating on me with one of our co-worker. She quit when I found out. I'm also so heartbroken. I thought he would be different just because of our humble beginnings. We will have been together for almost 3 years. I haven't told anyone what has happened. It's been difficult keeping it in and not having anyone to talk to. So, I'm also needing help.

ORCHID, you said...

You miss your real H and rightly so. This WS, makes you feel what? Depressed, frustrated, mad??? Which one or what one best describes you?

See your mind and heart must be in sync B4 implementing plan B. So you are confused which plan to be in..... you are not ready for plan B.

So let's talk.... what other self improvement do you think you need to make to finish plan A?

I guess I feel a definite combination of sadness, anger and frustration. I do feel like it's in some ways easier for me emotionally to be in a type B plan because then he has less opportunities to say hurtful things to me. So, that's good. However, after his 1st affair several years ago, I never really did a good solid plan A. I foolishly let my anger about his affair get in the way, and in some ways I guess I didn't try as hard as I could have or should have to meet some of his top emotional needs due to the resentment I felt towards him. He never really showed any real remorse after each affair, so I guess I had alot of anger towards him although mostly depression from everything that he put me through. So...any advice on where to go from here would be much appreciated. Thanks.

Also, plan A is all about being really nice to the WS, right? If so, I don't know how I could be that way to him without him perceiving me as a doormat. If anything, it seems like it would make him respect me more if I'm cordial but distant/busy, more like Plan B. Hmm..what do you think guys?

Orchid? Are you around tonight? If so, I could really use some of your wonderful advice! Of course, if anyone other than Orchid has some advice for me, that would be great too. Thanks!

SD,

I was out working today from about 2pm until about 9pm. H decided he'd give me a weekend job, cleaning someone else's hourse?!?!?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> How insane is that? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> My son came and helped out but I still was there for about 8 hours yesterday and another about 6 hours (took a break for some jamba juice). He had a foreclosure to clean up. Nice big house with lots of just and dirt clean. Didn't look dirty until you really started cleaning. Yea, I can clean them but can't afford them. LOL!!!

I looked up some info on this site and it may be good if you take a look at some of the Q&A responses from Dr. Harley:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

There you will find info on plan A & B.

Btw, plan A is NOT about being doormat. You are way better than that and NEVER s/b compared to a door mat.

This is just part of his response, so it w/b best if you go to the link and read the entire response but here it is anyways:

[color:"blue"] So, then, what is plan A and plan B?[/color]

Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespect, and demands. These three Love Busters not only ruin any effort to reach a negotiated settlement, but they also make the betrayed spouse much less attractive to the wayward spouse. Instead of encouraging total separation from the lover, the anger, disrespect and demands of the betrayed spouse make the lover appear to be the only one who truly cares about the wayward spouse. They literally throw the wayward spouse into the arms of the lover.

On the other hand, if the betrayed spouse approaches the wayward spouse with respect and thoughtfulness, the cruelty and self-indulgence of the affair is much easier for the wayward spouse to understand. And once the wayward spouse's mistake is acknowledged, it's much easier for him or her to take the first step toward recovery by agreeing to never see or talk to the lover again.

In these negotiations for total separation, the causes of the affair should be addressed. Since one of these causes is usually unfulfilled emotional needs, the betrayed spouse should express a willingness to meet those needs after the affair has ended. Another common cause is a wayward spouse's failure to take the betrayed spouse's feelings into account. The betrayed spouse's inconsiderate behavior sometimes leads the wayward spouse to believe that he or she has the right to return thoughtlessness with thoughtlessness by having an affair. Willingness of the betrayed spouse to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement goes a long way toward resolving the issue of thoughtlessness.

A third possible cause of an affair is a lifestyle where spouses spend much of their leisure time apart from each other, and form leisure-time friendships with those of the opposite sex. A plan to avoid being away from each other overnight and making each other favorite leisure-time companions goes a long way toward creating a passionate marriage that is essentially affair-proof.

In general, a betrayed spouse's effort to encourage the wayward spouse to end the affair should address all the root causes of the affair, and offer a solid plan for marital recovery. It should not be one-sided, however. The plan should make the wayward spouse and the betrayed spouse equally responsible for following the overall plan.

[color:"blue"]But plan A, an effort to end the affair with thoughtfulness and care, doesn't always work. In many cases a wayward spouse is so trapped by the addiction that he or she does not have the will-power to do the right thing. Once in a while the fog lifts and the cruelty and tragedy of the affair hits the wayward spouse right between the eyes. In a moment of grief and guilt, he or she promises to end it. But then the pain of withdrawal symptoms often brings back the fog with all its excuses and rationalization, and the affair is on again.

Sometimes a wayward spouse settles into a routine of having his or her cake and eating it too. In an effort to win the wayward spouse back, the betrayed spouse meets emotional needs that the lover cannot meet, while the lover meets emotional needs that the betrayed spouse has not learned to meet. While this competition is excruciatingly painful to the betrayed spouse, and the lover as well, the wayward spouse basks in the warmth of being loved and cared for by two people, with no real motivation to choose one over the other.

So, to avoid an indefinite period of suffering while a wayward spouse vacillates between spouse and lover, and to avoid rewarding the selfish behavior of having needs met by both spouse and lover, if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B. [/color]

[color:"red"]Plan B is for the betrayed spouse to avoid all contact with the wayward spouse until the affair has completely ended and the wayward spouse has agreed to my plan for recovery. In many cases, once an affair has ended, a betrayed spouse makes the mistake of taking the wayward spouse back before an agreement is made regarding marital recovery. This leads to a return to all the conditions that made the affair possible -- love is not restored, resentment is not overcome, and there is a very great risk for another affair. Without agreement and subsequent implementation of a plan for recovery, the betrayed spouse is better off continuing with plan B.

Since plan B (and plan A, for that matter), is extremely stressful for the betrayed spouse, I usually recommend that he or she ask a physician to prescribe anti-depressant medication to be taken throughout the crisis. This not only greatly reduces the suffering of the betrayed spouse, but it also helps keep a clear head at a time when patience and wise decisions are crucial. Anti-depressant medication does not numb the betrayed spouse to the crisis, it actually helps raise him or her above emotional reactions that would otherwise prevent clear-headed thinking. Why suffer and and make poor choices when anti-depressant medication can help ease your pain and improve your concentration in this time of unprecedented crisis?

While I have seen remarkable success by people using plan A and plan B, success is by no means guaranteed. The problem with Plan B is that the unfaithful spouse may not return, nor agree to the plan for recovery, even after the affair has ended. Separation in marriage is always risky because, "out of sight, out of mind." Unless plan A leaves the wayward s pouse with the impression that returning home is an attractive choice, separation can become permanent. So before implementing plan B, you want to be sure that the last thing your spouse remembers about you is the care and thoughtfulness you offered in plan A. That way, the separation can help create, "absence makes the heart grow fonder." [/color]

As it turns out, most affairs end within six months of their seeing the light of day (being revealed to their family and friends), and almost all affairs end without leading to marriage. Even those few that end in marriage have only a 25% rate of success. That's because affairs are based on dishonesty and thoughtlessness for the feelings of others. That same dishonesty and thoughtlessness eventually turns on the lovers themselves, and the affair is destroyed by those same flaws that made it possible in the first place. What drives affairs is passion, not commitment, and once the passion wanes, there is nothing to help the lovers restore their passion. Marriage, on the other hand, especially with children, has many factors that motivate couples to restore their passion for each other after passion has waned. So when passion is gone from an affair, a wayward spouse is usually motivated to return to the betrayed spouse by all of these other factors. For most, it's a logical choice.

But what about marital separation when an affair is not the issue. In your letter, you did not indicate why you had separated. It may have been for reasons other than infidelity.

In general, I recommend separation when at least one spouse cannot control destructive behavior. An ongoing affair, of course, is one of those situations. Hence, plan B. But other situations such as physical and verbal abuse, where one spouse's mental or physical safety is as risk, are also grounds for separation. As in the case of infidelity, if one spouse is abusive, I often recommend plan A first, where, through negotiation (without anger, disrespect or demands), an attempt is made to overcome the abuse without separating.

But in some cases, the safety risks are so great that plan B should be implemented immediately, with no time for plan A. In these cases, treatment for the abusive habit must take place during separation, and some evidence must exist that the risk has been greatly reduced, or completely eliminated, before the spouses should return to each other. Then, after being together again, the formerly abusive spouse should be held accountable by others for his or her behavior to assure the other spouse's safety.

[color:"green"]In other cases, such as annoying behavior or failure to meet important emotional needs, where thoughtlessness does not reach the level of physical or mental abuse, plan A should be given quite a bit of time and effort before resorting to plan B. Remember, plan A is negotiating (without anger, disrespect or demands) to eliminate the annoying behavior or improve the meeting of emotional needs. A blanket agreement between spouses to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement goes a long way toward eliminating these thoughtless acts, and can also help couples learn to meet each other's needs with enthusiasm. But without that policy, couples often find that they cannot get anywhere with each other through negotiation, and sometimes separation can eventually lead to mutual recognition that they need the Policy of Joint Agreement to help them resolve conflicts. [/color]

But, as I mentioned earlier, the risks of separation are great. It should be used only as a last resort to help resolve a fatal flaw in marriage. Once separated, couples often never do reconcile, remaining separated for life, or they eventually divorce. A fact unknown to many is that fifteen to twenty percent of all married couples end their lives permanently separated. These, who are not included in divorce statistics, usually feel that they should not legally divorce for religious reasons. But for most practical purposes, they are as divorced as those legally divorced. Their separation did not create the opportunity for reconciliation, but rather, created an even higher barrier between spouses.

So whenever spouses separate, I usually encourage a plan that moves them toward eventual reconciliation. From your letter, it sounds as if you are moving in that direction, and you simply need to know when it would be the right time to move back together. And you may want to know more about full marital recovery after you have ended your separation.

End of Dr Harley's post (for the complete responses, please click on the Q&A link above.

Now SD, the green part of Dr. Harley's thread has some application in your case but Dr. Harley does not indicate in this response HOW to deal with the annoying behavior of the WS.

This is where I insert what worked for me..... I learned to plan A my real H (when he acted like my realy H) vs the plan B attitude I gave when the WS showed up. This was done whether contact was by phone, e-mail or even in person. BUT it was implemented only AFTER I was able to resolve myself to know how to distinguish between my H vs the WS and had the stamina to plan B the WS. In time I went to plan B but the WS already had a taste of how standoffish I c/b. Now when plan B was fully implemented, the WS received that treatment up front. It didn't last long....no it didn't necessarily stop the A but it sure damaged it. LOL!!! I had the OW whining and pretending t/b scared of me (I'm only 4'10.... on a good day and OW was 5'4").

I had identified as MY personal boundary NOT to have an OW in MY life. If that meant losing the WS, no problem....didn't like the WS anyways. LOL!!! :griN;

WS didn't like to be cast out of his family. That was the best thing I did. Threw him out there all alone with a whinny OW. LOL!!! The Ow claimed she was afraid and always looking over her shoulder, I agree and told him she should, in fact they both should. OW threatened to go the police....I beat her to it and called both the police in my city and hers. LOL!!! Each attempt by the WS and OW to disarm me only made me stronger. My reverse babble abilities grew in strength and soon I was able to babble back (giving him back his guilt) so good, I eve amazed myself. LOL!! Ok.... I practiced with the bathroom mirror. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> and it work! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

So get a plan. Do your best to plan A but realize it may not work getting him to stop the. So instead do plan A to make your personal self improvements and if he is still a WS and you are done with your plan A improvements, then you w/b ready for plan B and watch him run!

L.