Pro-life
Pro-death penalty

would you please you explain your views.

I was thinking as a concept, actually....but i am interested to hear your views of it's use in the US too.

Sure. I will do so briefly. If you want to know more, please let me know!!

I am pro-life. I believe that a human being is a human being, no matter the stage (zygote, fetus, infant, toddler, adolescent, adult, senior, etc). They are all human beings. I believe that as such, they have the God-given right to life. Intentionally taking an innocent human life is wrong.

I am pro-death penalty. I believe that when you kill another innocent human being, you have agreed that you should be killed. Just as if you steal from another, you have given up your right to walk freely on the streets. Or if you rape someone. Someone that intentionally kills a innocent human being has chosen to end their own life. Just as a thief has chosen to be put in jail.

I am a Christian. In that, I believe that NO ONE is sent to He!! by God. The people that end up in He!!, choose to go there! By their own free will. People that choose to rape another person, choose to go to jail. People who choose to kill an innocent person on purpose, have chosen to go to death row.

Anyway...that's the basics. Please let me know if I can elaborate any or if this explains it well enough.

It's probably easier to address them in reverse so here goes:

I think that the death penalty as instituted in the US is largely a political carrot for politicians who want to convince their consitutencies that they are 'tough on crime.' I don't think it accomplishes anything other than wasting a lot of time, effort and money. Well, it polarizes people and gives them a reason to vote for or against someone - which is nice for the politicians.

I think the way the system is implemented costs too much money, is wrong too much of the time, is slanted towards minorites and men, and basically just fails to offer any redeeming qualities.

As a concept:

This takes a little explaining because it highlights a key difference between my general philosphy and many other people's general philosophy which is: Humankind is not special We're just like everything else on the planet - no better and no worse. I don't think we're some higher form of life.

I also don't happen to believe that death is the worst thing that could ever happen to a person (animal, etc). I can imagine a lot of things I'd rather die than have to endure. Well, ok, maybe not a lot but enough. Which, by the way, I recognize is my personal bias. It affects my opinion on matters but I do understand that many people hold death as the ultimate "Bad Thing" and I rather expect their opinions on things to be very different than mine if that's what they believe.

So, that said, I support euthanasia. I think that if we think it's moral to put down a dog, cat, or horse as an end to suffering (their deaths aren't worse than their suffering) that people should have the same option.

Following that train of thought, we also sometimes have to kill animals that are threats to society. I believe that there are some people who, probably because of some disorder, disease, or damage, can not ever be trusted to rejoin society. In my opinion, warehousing those individuals is often more cruel than a swift, relatively painless death (such as lethal injection -- I don't advocate other forms of state sponsored death that include tortureing the individual first).

The truth is, we don't really know what to do with people who, for whatever reason, just can't be allowed to join society -- and some of them can't even exist inside the structured enviornment of prison. We have to build new prisons called SuperMax institutions which eliminate all human contact and keep people locked in tiny cells 23 hours out of every day. The time they're out of their cell, they're exercising in solitary conditions. If you do an internet search on Supermax and psychological problems you can read up on what happens to people when you do that to them.

I'm a pretty pragmatic person. I tend to think of goals. So, the goal of prison is to keep the criminals away from the rest of us. An ideal goal would be to rehabilitate people to re-join society. I think prison is a good structured environment for people who have proven they need that structure. When you find someone who is unable to integrate into that limited of a society, I think you're faced with the question of what to do now?

Now maybe some people would be happy to see that those people are suffering -- after all, they did some pretty horrible things to end up there. I just can't shake the feeling that we'd never do that to any other life form and feel good about it. If someone wanted to take a social animal, like a dog, and lock it in a cage for the rest of it's life with no human or canine companionship -- allow it to stretch for 1 hour every day because it was a "bad dog" or it "bit people" or it even "killed/maimed a human" people would be up in arms about it. We seem to recognize that it's better just to put it to sleep. Somehow, though, our recognition of that does not extend to what we do to our fellow human beings -- even though we know those conditions drive them crazy(ier).

I guess people believe those criminals had choices -- the more I learn about the biology of some mental illnesses, the more I wonder about that. And, frankly, even IF that person was fully functioning and had full choices and STILL did those horrible things -- I don't think I'm improved by glorifying in their punishment or suffering. I might be relieved that they're gone and can't hurt anyone anymore -- but I just don't need to see people tortured in order to feel better about bad things happening.

The bottom line: I don't necessarily believe the death penalty is the worst punishment we are capable of inflicting -- or even that we all ready inflict on people.

Anyway, that's what I think.

Mys

thank you all for answering.
i grew up cathoilc and both
abortion and capital punishment were considered wrong and against the church....yet,i saw so much contradiction in the beliefs of the people I knew.....i realized most of my opinions and beliefs and on formed from my own life experience and what i feel in my heart.......i find it very difficult to take a black and white stand on either of these issues.

mortarmans reasoning confuses me... It seems so wrong to me that a man can rape a young girl and impregnate her.....go out an commit murder and be sentenced to death for it......while that young girl will be forced to have his child. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

seeing it spelled out like that...
just looks like an oxy-moron to me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I am assuming the wrong part of this you are referring to is that the young girl having to have the child, right? If not, if you are saying it is wrong to sentence to death this rapist or a murderer...then I will address that in a different post. Just let me know.

But on the issue of this girl....

I have a 12 year old daughter. And if she was raped and impregnated, I know I would probably come unglued (they had best lock the guy up...for his own safety!) But that being said...there is now another issue here.

And that is there is a human being growing inside my daughter. And that human being is also family. That human being had no choice, just like my daughter, in its conception. That baby is just as innocent as my daughter.

So, what do we do? Do we kill this member of the family to avoid the pain (emotional) of another member of the family? Does my daughter's need for emotional recovery trump the baby's need/right for life?

I know that I would stand by my daughter all the way through. She would understand that while, yes...this baby was conceived by an evil man... But that baby is hers...it has her blood running through it. And while no one would want what happened to her to have occured, we are where we are.

I will help her understand that although there is much emotional pain here...that her very soul will feel even worse pain if she is involved in the death of this child.

I would help her understand that there are options for her. That she could choose to rely on God, and to raise this child with love. Or, she could choose to have the baby adopted by a loving family, if she was unable to overcome this horrific event that has happened to her.

As I have said before...this situation is one of the worst! There really isnt a great way out of it. No matter which way you go, there is pain.

But, I also want to note that this situation is a very small percentage of the overall abortions being conducted. Most abortions are for convenience...because they dont want to be pregnant after having sex that they consented to.

Hope that clears things up. And if it is the other part (the death penalty for the evil one), let me know and I can explain that one!

Yeah...I can see how it would. Maybe the better way to say it is:

Pro-innocent human life
Pro-death penalty for the non-innocent

yes, i was referring to the girl as the victim in the sceario.
I understand the point you make about the unborn innocent being a member of your family.

as a woman who has been thru an emotionally difficult pregnancy it pains me to think of a little girl being forced to endure that......particularly if she was a victim of rape.
so, yes...i guess i do believe that your daughter's (or my daughters) emotional health would trump the ongoing life of that particular fetus.

abortions out of convience?
i don't like the way that sounds either and can say I completely do not agree w/ that.


there are so many possible scenarios....some that i personally know, that make it so difficult for me to feel strongly for or against abortion or capital punishment.

I find it interesting to hear others views....others who have picked their side...are so sure of what they are against and what they are for.

I am curious as to what MM thinks regarding the killing of innocent victims in the prisons. There are very well documented cases of innocents being executed. There is no way to assure that it wouldn't happen in any particular case. How do you see this fitting into your scenario of innocents being killed? BTW, MM, I shared your view until I saw first hand how screwed up our criminal justice non-system really is. IMO, when we have another alternative... life in prison w/o parole we should not rely on a method that has been proven to be responsible for the execution of innocents.

I can respect that. As I said, this would not be an easy decision, whichever way it went!! I believe that life trumps these things. But I can respect your take on this...as this would be one of the worst things I hope my daughter or wife or anyone would be able to avoid!!


I say this because outside of rape or the life of the mother (which are a very small portion of the overall abortion numbers), the other abortions fall into this category. The person had consentual sex...knowing that only abstinance is 100% effective in preventing pregnancy. So, they had sex...and the consequence of that sex is a baby. Now, since they do not want that baby due to a myriad of reasons...they should not have engaged in the sex act in the first place! A baby should not lose its life due to the poor judgement or decisions of its parents!


Me too. I have been involved in the abortion issue...at the "ground floor" so to speak. So has my wife. And I do understand the many many issues surrounding it. It is a very hard issue!

But as I said...in the end, a human being should not be destroyed because of the bad judgement of his/her parents. And most of the abortions that are done in the U.S. today, fall into that category.

Look. I am retired Army. And when we go to war, we KNOW that some innocent people almost always die. Some maybe at my own hands!! But...here is the issue...I am not targeting or intentionally trying to kill innocent people! I am targeting and trying to kill the enemy.

When we put a person on death row, we are targeting...and killing...a person we believe to be evil...the enemy of society. That mistakes have been made...I have no doubt! And that is about as sad as it gets! But...Ted Bundy wasnt innocent! And he got what he deserved. The two brothers that killed a grandmother here locally at her mom & pop grocery store she owned...werent innocent. They had video tape and everything! And they got what they asked for. And they did ask for the death penalty. As did Ted Bundy. As do all murderers. When they commit the murder, they are asking the people of that state to execute them. It is their choice!


I can respect your view. I can.

But as I said...there are those that ARE definitely guilty!! And deserve to die. And have asked to die, due to their actions. But having innocent people die is a tragedy. Whether it be in prison, or in war.

I am not willing to stop the death penalty (although I agree we need to make darn well sure they are guilty before killing them), just as I am not willing to tell soldiers not to shoot because their rounds might cause some innocent people to die. Unfortunately...it is a part of war.

I am not saying this in an off-handed way! Everytime a soldier is responsible for an innocent person's death...it hits you hard. And it ALWAYS stays with you!

Until Jesus returns...nothing on Earth will be perfect. Mistakes will be made. We need to do our best to minimize them.

War is different. A prisoner has already been "captured" and there is no reason to kill him if in fact he may be innocent. The criminal justice system does not allow for a flawless delivery of punishment. Do we have a new standard of guilt??? Guilty and definitely guilty. Because anyone sentenced to death has been through numerous appeals and most would say they are definitely guilty...that is until they are PROVEN innocent. War time innocents are a victim of mistaken identity or a bystander to an event. I had to face the same thing as a cop when I discharged my weapon. Apples and oranges. A person mistakenly on death row is neither.
And since you say you are unwilling to stop the death penalty...it must serve some profound purpose in your eyes if you are willing to risk the execution of even one innocent.
The war analogy just doesn't hold water in comparison to the death penalty.
Like I said MM, I once held your view (and respect you)... and most likely would have continued to do so had I not spent my time in the police department and saw firsthand how easy it is to convict the wrong person of a crime.

MEDC,

I also respect you and the position you take on this for the reasons you have stated.

I understand that the war analogy doesnt perfectly fit...but I was using it to show that as we step into battle, we know that we will be killing innocent people. I had a friend of mine who was being shot at by an enemy who was hiding behind a child. My friend had to shoot the child and the enemy.

As I said, the analogy isnt supposed to be perfect. Except to say that innocent humans are killed almost everyday by mistake.

Again, I do not take this lightly. And it bothers me greatly that even one innocent person is put to death.

You asked if I thought the death penalty had a purpose. I think so. Some say it is a deterent. I dont care whether it is or isnt.

To me, the death penalty is punishment. Plain and simple. Look at Saddam. Is there anyone with a brain that works that thinks he wasnt guilty of all of those murders? He got what he deserved.

Remember, God allowed capital punishment...and not just for murder. Adultery, being disrespectful to your parents are just two of them.

Again, MEDC...I do understand. And I want us to do a better job now with convictions. Using DNA, etc. But at the end of the day, there is now way I want the likes of Ted Bundy sitting in a prison somewhere. I want him punished appropriately. Anything short of death is not appropriate to me.

nia - consider this; "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's.

It is the government's "job" to exact penalties for wrongdoing, and that includes the capital crimes.

We may not like paying taxes, but we do.

We may not like executing killers, but we don't have to, the government takes on that role on our behalf.

Personally I think the greatest problem we have with the death penalty is the TIME that it takes for a sentence to be executed. Then we get to "feeling sorry" for the "poor prisoner." In the meantime, the dead victim is still in grave and is "forgotten." The families that are devastated are "forgotten."

This idea of "all prisoners can be 'reformed'" is not true and the statistics prove it out.

Now, if we want to build a "lifetime" prison for killers and end the death penalty (no possibility of parole EVER), then I guess I'd support one or more prisons being built in Antarctica. Want to escape? Have at it.

Absolutely right on!!!!



Decrease the amount of time.... decrease the number of appeals...etc... more innocent people will be executed. Also statistically proven since there are people that are proven innocent after a lengthy appeal process. Without time, that process cannot run its course.



Any prison can be made escape proof. You would get NO argument from me though with your approach. The problem with prison and escape/riots etc are a result of criminals being given the opportunity to congregate. Solitary confinememt for murderers would take care of that. And remember.... it is cheaper to keep a person in prison for life than to execute them.

And FH...int he United States... the people are Ceasar. We are the government. That may not have been true for the authors of the Bible living under Roamn rule... but We are our government. We do not trun people over to be executed... we all do it.

Agree.

I would prefer prison for life.

I have heard the scriptural arguaments for death penalty and find them VALID but incomplete.

MEDC - I understand your point and I think you also understand mine. I am not talking "semantics" here.

You seem to be "splitting hairs" here, and I understand what you are saying.

But we do not personally execute the criminals that we have delegated that "Right" to the government anymore than we personally wage war or personally arrest people who do break the law. We have collectively "given" that right to the government to act on our behalf. We can "execute" someone in self-defense of an imminent threat on our lives and we can perform a "citizen's arrest," but they are the exceptions to the "rule of law" that we have entrusted to our government (Federal, State, and Local).

Now we could return the "Old West" method of justice and strap on a six-shooter and go gunnin' for the bad guys ourselves, but I don't think most of us would care to do that, or want everyone else to do that either.




There have been some people I suppose, though I'd have to look up the statistics for actuals, who have been executed for crimes they didn't commit. But I'd guess it's a very low ratio of the total.




I'd personally have no problem with solitary confinement, but I also wouldn't be surprised if a "hue and cry" arose about "cruel and unusual punishment" from the crowd who put criminal "rights" ahead of "victims" rights. I could be wrong, but I don't think so at this time.




An interesting hypothesis. Are there any statistics on the cost of lifetime incarceration versus the cost of execution?

Providing 3 squares a day and cot in Antarctica doesn't seem like it would be an "unreasonable" cost.

Noodle - I, too, would have no great problem with "prison for life" if we could be assured that it WOULD be "for life" with no possibility of parole or out "for good behavior" or some other "reason." "Lock 'em up and throw away the key" works for me.