This is NOT A FIGHT. It's the way it is and has to be for the protection of your children. He may try to provoke you into an argument or a fight BUT STATE THIS AS A FACT.

Gaining his RESPECT OF YOU is an IMPORTANT PART OF PLAN A and it will increase your ATTRACTIVENESS TO HIM....



PRACTICE WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO SAY TO HIM. Don't make it negotiable. CALMLY yet ASSERTIVELY state this as a FACT.

Think of it as PROTECTING YOUR CHILDREN FROM DANGER..a car speeding at them as they cross the road...because it is DANGEROUS for them..LIFE-ALTERING..for them to be in such situations....

I had a childhood similar to Eav's...

At age 52, I still vividly recall SCARY SCENES FROM MY CHILDHOOD..not necessarily VIOLENT... situations that I found to be CONFUSING..because of the ILLICITNESS...

And please don't look at this from the perspective that YOU are doing something bad to HIM.

This is just simply a consequence of HIS actions.

Put yourself in MommaBear mode first; and don't look at him as her father -- look at him as someone who is a threat to your daughters happy safe childhood.

Do folks often tell you both how PERCEPTIVE you are?

Yes, I do take responsibility for EVERYTHING. Wish it were easy for me to let it all go, but it is a constant battle for me.

I KNOW I failed to meet his needs and therefore feel that I am responsible and have to "fix" everything.

I remember you telling me to stop eating those crap sandwiches he's been feeding me!! I laughed then, but am crying now.

I AM in IC and have found great help and support there. IC is supportive of my Plan A activity to date,,,,,,,,with the caveat being as long as it is good for ME.

I am NOT on an anti-depressant. I just called my ob-gyn's office, but they are closed til later today. I saw him in Jan and he is aware of what his happening. Told me all I have to do is call and he will get me a script.

WS just called and asked what time I plan to leave office. I asked what he had in mind. Said he didn't like the way our conversation ended this am and that this would give us a chance to talk without the kids there. Asked if I thought it was a good idea and I agreed it was.

Then,,,he says OR it's ok if you can't get out early we can do it another time.

So,,,,,,, it's totally up to me now WHEN this takes place today.

I DON"T want to get all emotional and weepy!

I DO want to set these boundaries and let him suffer the consequences of his own actions.

What I am Struggling with is HOW do I do that
AND
Have a valid Plan A

I know,,,,,,,Go back and re-read the Carrot & the Stick, right???

My BRAIN and HEART are trying really hard to get in sync here!

I really am a very intelligent woman! I just am having such a HARD time getting this! Please keep bearing with me!!

EXACTLY..THIS IS THE HONEST-TO-GOODNESS TRUTH!!!

Momma Bear Mode - - Now THAT is something I can relate to!

Perfect analogy!

While I have allowed him to hurt and step on me(promise I'll be putting a stop to that soon, too), I CAN NOT and WILL NOT allow him to endanger my daughter!

She is absolutely #1.

I have to remember - this is NOT the same loving husband and father that we both remember, love and trust.

Go read Eav's thread about her childhood. That will give you some good perspective on what you are saving your daughter from.

He's an alien right now -- you have to be the one who acts on the best interests of your daughter.

Yep -- Plan A has both elements to it; you don't just sit back and let him wreak havoc on everyone's lives.

You have to be the strong one. So your head needs to be in the right place. Leave a message for your doc and use those tools (anti-depressants).
They won't make your feelings disappear, but they will even them out so you don't feel like you're operating from emotions all the time.

And practice what you want to say. Even write some things down....they will come back to you when you need them. It is absolutely amazing how different your interaction with him will feel when you are WELL PREPARED for him!

Don't let him flip this on you! I can see that is one of his tactics. To change the issue to further justify his bad behavior from your (understandable!!!) emotional reactions.

What do you think he will say to you?
And what should you say in return....???

Wow - - what will he say to me?

I think he's going to come out first with it being over and our needing to move on to Plan D.

Bugs- I don't do Plan D

When I tell him about DD and OW - He is going to get angry and defensive and try to flip

WS - I KNEW you would end up trying to keep me away from DD! You SWORE you would never do that.

Bugs - I am NOT keeping DD away from you. I would never do that. I AM however, keeping her away from OW.


Hey,,,,,,,, that was pretty good for a first try I think!
From there,,,,,,I pretty much ANY of the phsyco babble possible to come out of his mouth!!

very good! more....

think of more things you might want to say, and ways you can say it without LB.

Your version is very good -- but this is likely to be a longer interacton than that.

YES!! Would have saved me from many years of therapy if my parents had protected me from the STUFF they were doing...

That being said...I agree, agree with all Lexx has said...

Maybe YOU END THE CONVERSATION about the VISITATION..say your say and then make no further comment...He can't FORCE you to ENGAGE in further conversation about it...Can he?..

"I'm not going to discuss this with you any further tonight....YOU CAN visit with her at such and such a place at such and such a time"...PERIOD....

WHY is a SIMPLE ANSWER..It is MY JOB TO PROTECT HER FROM THE HARMFULNESS OF "OW'S NAME"....

Oh yes,,, it is going to be MUCH longer I am sure.

Ok, let's give it a go.

IF WS Keeps up on the DD/OW contact = here are a couple of responses Not as good as the first one,,,


Bugs - - I have to look out of DD's emotional health. Her Daddy and Mommy are MARRIED. It is not healthy for her to see you with anyone else.

WS, you are always the one that talks about how smart & perceptive she it, she WILL see what is going on between you two. EVEN if you refuse to admit it to me or even yourself, she will see it.

I can not trust in anything you tell me about this. Period.

If YOU want to date her, I can't stop you, but I refuse to allow another woman to date my FAMILY.



I am having a hard time thinking in terms of how the conversation might go because I want so very much to ASK him tons of questions about our R. But from what I've read here, there is no good that will come of that so it's not worth the bother.

I will restate OVER and OVER -

I KNOW we can change our marriage and have a BETTER ONE
I KNOW we can be a family again
I want you to come home
I need YOU to be my husband
I want and need you to be a Father to your children HERE with them EVERY DAY.


He asked me the day he said in Jan he wanted a divorce "where do you think we went wrong"

I HAVE answers to that now with all I have learned and I have SOLUTIONS!! I want so desparately to share all of THAT with him.

But, again, I understand that education at this point in time is more of a LB than anything.

Check out my post before yours. I wouldn't engage in all of this conversation with him about the visitation.I would set the BOUNDARY and end it. He will only feed you BULL and try to PROVOKE you, I think.



This stuff I would REPEAT and TALK TO HIM.

FOR ME, it helped not to listen to MUCH of what my WH had to say in this type of conversation when I KNEW he would be handing my RATIONALIZATIONS for his BAD BEHAVIOR...

He would be GAMING ME..not REALLY TALKING or SHARING with me...I predict that that would be the case with your WH..

Yes, you can't be a TEACHER if there is no STUDENT...a student defined a someone there to learn....

Mimi,

I did see you post after I had put mine up and TOTALLY agree with you take on the visitation being the LAST part of any conversation.

I did read EAVs thread. How can I NOT be in protective mode now??

I also found something else I want to say to WS



I'm leaving here in a few minutes to meet with Ws. I can not thank you enough for your GREAT advice and for being my sounding board today!

I'll try to give an update later this evening!

Keep those prayers coming!

I agree with Mimi -- protect your boundries, and don't let him drag the conversation into blaming you or sharing blame with you.

State your boundry. Be ready to back it up with facts. And be done.

I think you'll do really good tonight! Keep your mantra.
Its perfect!

Called ws on way home got vm. Got home and caLled again, left numeric page. 10 min ltr he just called back. Said he fell asleep in the chair
Asked if I had kids yet
I said ,nooo
He said he be over in a few minutes. All mr friendly

Guess this is no big deal to him and here I am trying not to throw up!

Had to post to have SOMETHING to do in theses agonizing minutes!

Later!

Here I am alive and well. I even made it thru without throwing up, so I guess it was a success!

Seriously, it was not what I expected. I just have a minute but will give a brief beginning of what happened


Ws started with "what do you want to talk about?"

Bugs - I said most of it this am. You hurt me and I needed to tell you. I do not expect anything, I just had to tell you.

I also told you what I want. I want you. I want the better marriage I know we can have. I want us to be a family

WS - I understand why u feel the way you do. You are right. I should not have had the kids there. I am sorry. You have my word it will not happen again

Bugs sits holding her breath

Ws contines - I know u have probably heard many things about me and OW. I never told u about OW because I did not want to hurt you
We just started talking at work. It kept up for quite a while. I pulled back and she noticed. We talked and agreed that we should stop

How much of this do u want to hear?

Bugs - all of it. All u will tell me

WS - Ithought it was not giving us a fair chance if I kept talking to her. We would talk once in a blue moon. Sometimes I called her sometimes she called me. Until last week. She called and told me that she has ended her R with boyfriend of 3 yrs. She then called every day. She called last minut sat and asked if it was ok if they came by the place we were going. I said ok

Iknew that night that youl would find out and that you would be upset. I did not know how to tell u

Bugs us biting HARD on her tongue and almost drew blood

Giving us a fair chance? My big bottom! None of his actions were anything that gave us a chance!

Did not know how to tell me? BS!

Did not want to hurt me? More like he did not want to get caught!

Bugs waits to hear where the R is going but it never came.

WS then says - so, you have put this together and say that THIS is our problem, right?

Bugs - absolutely not. I do not think that at all. 'This' is a problem on TOP of others

We had problems before. I did not understand and meet needs for you. You do not understand or meet needs for me. We were not communicating.

I take full responsibilty for my part in allowing our R to be in a position that you chose to have this other relationship.

WS was taken aback. He had what I thought all figured out and could not deal with any other response

I can not finish the long long conversation til tomorrow

I will leave u with this. We did talk a lot of R which WS initiated and kept going

Ended w/ WS u it is after 6 we need to get the kids. Can we contine this over the weekend?

I know there is still tons of fog and justification going on here. However, there is more talking about R than in months. For that I am happy and am having hope.

After hearing the rest tomorrow u may all give me a Snap Out Of It Slap, but for now I will hold happily to my hope

waiting for the rest of the story.....

I am very glad you got to say some of those things!

Great, Bugs!!

I'm also awaiting the rest of your story...

Hope your TONGUE is OK this morning...it's probably almost bitten off..

Ok - - here's my summary - Hope you are ready for all this, it's LONG

Continued -
Bugs -
I see and understand so much more about our relationship that I never really did before.

You sat there and asked me where we went wrong. I now KNOW some answers to that question. Not all, but some. I also have the SOLUTIONS so that it will never happen again. I have spent countless hours, working, studying, thinking, giving myself a hard look and I have learned so much. I just want the chance to share that with you and for us to work together and start meeting each other's needs.

I take full responsibility for the things I did and did not do that allowed our marriage to be vulnerable. I also KNOW that none of it is anything we can't work thru for a better marriage. "


From there,,,,, I forget the exact back and forth. I kept up with the positive, that we can work this out.

I asked him what do you see when you look at me?

What is different NOW than when you wanted to be with me FOREVER?


He said he enjoys doing things for me, when I need help. He enjoys our SF times together, but that is like when we were first seeing each other. He said the things I am doing and saying now do not seem real. He does not believe that if he comes back that it won't end up down the road, just the way it was before.

I asked him - - "just do me a favor. stop and ask yourself this. Why would I put myself thru all of this, just for it to go back to the way it was?


I told him how I sat there, thinking about how he had said so many times that he wanted it to be like it was at the beginning. Then I slapped myself in the forehead and said to myself "Why wouldn't I want it to be like it was in the beginning?"

I realized I had let issues, stuff, disappointments, resentments build up and made the decision that I could let them go so that we could have it again the way it was in the beginning.

I have worked so hard to see and understand what went on so that I could make changes. Changes to last a lifetime for a better marriage. I am not perfect, by any means, and I have a lot of work to do. But I see such hope and love and a wonderful future together.

He said, he just "doesn't want this any more. I don't want to be here. I don't want this"

Bugs - You said that you enjoyed parts of this. You have said you want it to be like the beginning. IF you could BELIEVE that the changes are REAL, why WOULDN'T you want this?

No answer

I told him that I need him there EVERY day, morning thru night to be my husband. Sid needs him there every day morning thru night to be her daddy. I need Austin there every day from morning to night to be my son. Sid needs Austin there every day morning to night to be her brother

That made him MAD - - He went off about how the kids mean the world to him. He does everything in his power to be a good dad. he KNOWS what they need. I said, then you know that they need us all to be together.

He went off about how he is a much better dad now. That when he was "here" he didn't want them around and that I didn't seem to want that either. Now, when he has them they spend good time together and how great it is.

Went into how he has such emotions around BABIES and wants to have another child, but he can't because he had the vasectomy. How he KNEW I was cheating after he had it because I kept taking birth control pills. Even though I told him that it was because he never had the follow up tests. He did it for ME for my health,,,,,,,,,that he'd always been told he didn't care about my health issues, but that he proved it by doing that and I never appreciated it.

Now - - NOTE thta from intel I have that the OW has said one of the reasons she was breaking up with her Boyfriend is because SHE wants another baby & he doesn't!!

REMEMBER,,,,,,,,,one of the BIG things WS wanted to "give" me when we first got together was a baby!! I'd had 5 miscarriages in my previous marriage.


Then, he started into various stories of how I'd hurt him over the years. Each one he'd explain how I was so hurtful to him. Each time, I focused my reply on the fact that I am sorry that he felt that way. Sometimes I'd explain how I felt at the time, but sometimes not.

Again, I kept up with the fact that I can NOT change the past. WE CAN change the future to make BETTER memories.

At one point he said, I don't want to sit here and do nothing but list everything that went wrong.

I replied, well, if sitting here and listening to how you felt hurt, letting you know that I am sorry for each and every one, if it takes DAYS, I will sit here and do that with you if it can possibly help get us thru this.


So, he went on with another story.

I didn't let him rail on me,,, I didn't take responsibility for every hurt, I pointed out many things that he stated were inaccurate. I did tell him of some of my hurt and disappointment. I didn't sit there feeling like I was a HORRIBLE person or a BAD wife. I didn't take responsibility for EVERYTHING. It's hard to explain.


Ws -I have gone thru all of this emotion, this pain to get to the point where I am DONE. I have decided to get a different life and I have started to do this. NOW, you expect me to just flip a switch and go backwards.

Bugs- I said, No, I KNOW that it is not that easy. There is a great deal that we would have to work thru. I realize what you have been through but this marriage, our future, our family is TOO important, too valuable to just walk away.

Bugs- I know that you are going to really miss out on the best thing in your life if you walk away.

Finally, it was late. He says, "its after 6. We need to get the kids. Can we continue this over the weekend?"

I said yes.

I KNOW he has not been completely truthful about the entire situation with OW

I KNOW he is continuing that relationship

I KNOW in his mind that this was all about HIM being the victim and ME being the bad guy.

Yet, my initial reaction was that this was a GOOD conversation. He wanted to talk about the Relationship, something we haven't done in months in any real way. He was sharing his pain with me.

I would guess he thinks that by getting this all out he can 1. Make me understand and agree that we should divorce and 2. get the chance to say everything he's wanted to about how hurt and victimized he has been in our relationship

I AM worried that none of this will make a difference, yet I have a strange feeling of HOPE about it.

That it is possible to work thru this. IF he is so convinced that he is DONE, then what is the point of continuing to talk?


One last thing - he stayed to see kids and get mail, etc. We were standing in the kitchen and he says, "I know that we need to have a lot of talks yet and nothing is really decided. But, we need to think about what we need about getting this house ready to sell. Whether we are together or we are apart, we had decided that we would do that this year and we need to think about that so that the kids are set before school starts next year. What are your plans? Are you planning to move by your parents and build or are you planning to buy a house?"

Bugs -"Well, it depends. If we are together, we'd need to decide if building is still what we want to do. Just because that was our plan does not mean that it is still the right plan for us. We'd both have to mutually agree, wholeheartedly on whatever we decide to do. If you are asking what I would do if I am alone?? I can't afford to build on the land by myself. Other than that, I don't know"

WS-"Well, no matter what, you know I will have to be close. I have to be where I can spend time with DD"

We then agreed to think about it. Also, that we would have a realtor sell it vs. trying to do it ourselves. Very casual.

Based on this, he has thought about where he & DSS will move, I guess??? While I liked the comments that there is still a lot to talk about,,,,and the mention of possibly "together",,,,,, I don't like that he's thinking this far down the road in terms of us being apart.

I am TOTALLY drained today. I couldn't even write about this in my journal last night. That's part of the reason I needed to write it all down here. This is important information that will need to be re-visited in recovery.

It's also things I need to think about and decide if I want to or if I can work thru with him. This is all still a choice I have to make for MYSELF, as well as for my marriage. If it turns that this is to hurtful or painful for me to continue, I have to be aware that it is a decision I can make.

that's it, I'm finished. Can I go home and go back to bed now??

I expect honest, truthful insights here.

I know that some will see that I "left him off" too easily. Just try to be gentle in your replies, please?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Bugsy;

You really did well. You were able to get all of your points in, calmly and logically.

And in the midst of so much foggy history!!!
I am in awe of how you could sit through so much fog-talk!!!

Here is where I see your challenges:

You need to give this same message consistantly. Do not let him sidetrack you into divorce talk.

You still need to expose the affair. Otherwise he is going to try to spin this as a new relationship that started AFTER your marriage was "over".

I would avoid any further relationship talk -- because this is really only him trying to get you to buy his rewritten history. And to butter you up towards the "amicable divorce."

He's trying to nudge you towards it with his house talk....and you are right there with him talking realtors....
Again, he's not dealing in reality -- he hasn't addressed finances and budgets.

IMO, you did let him off too easily on the OW/date thing. You need to be more clear about your boundry of her never being in the presence of your daughter.

(just curious, but if OW so desparetly wants another baby, what is she doing with YOUR HUSBAND? Doesn't his vasectomy disqualify him?? GEEZ! and thank god you don't have to worry about her getting pregnant on purpose!!!)

All in all -- GREAT JOB!

Lexxxy,

thanks for the insight and support!

I got a bit of intel after my post. OW had lunch with a friend of a friend last WED. Told this person that she and BOYFRIEND are back together!! She admitted to feelings for WS, but that it was best to have ended that.

So,,,,,,,, sounds like SHE is also trying to COVER up what SHE is doing.

I am trying to find out OW's boyfriend's NAME. Gotta let him in on what is going on.

Talked to several friends who are also co-workers and let them in on the fact that the AFFAIR is continuing. Let them know about how WS had MY kids out with OW. All FULL support on how WRONG that was!

We have the best/worst "rumor mill" in our industry so I have EVERY confidence that this info will be in every office within hours. All in time BEFORE WS returns to work here next week. ALREADY exposing before he can try to REWRITE history here!

Re: OW and kids - - I did revisit that again in our conversation, but didn't include in my previous summary. I made it clear that in NO uncertain terms that this will NEVER happen again.

It wasn't as forceful as you & Mimi had recommended yesterday - I did not insist on supervised visitation at this point. I may be wrong to, but I believe he told me the truth on this.

Re:OW wanting baby,,,,, how's it go??? Egg Zact Lee!

It DOES disqualify him. I KNOW it relates to why he even brought it up. Because of HER influence and R with him! It's a manipulation on her part,,,,,,,,,,

"SEE, here's something I might want to do with YOU,,,,, but its your WIFE's FAULT that YOU can't have what YOU want!"

I should also tell you that in the vasectomy part of the talk, he admitted something. He never had gone back to get tested to be sure that the operation was a success. I continued taking my birth control pills until the script ran out. He said he KNEW that I did that because I WAS CHEATING on him!! OMG!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

A friend pointed out something interesting. IF her pursuit of him started again in earnest this week, as he stated, then WHY is he wanting to have these conversations with me?

Is it because he is feeling pressure from OW?

Is this his way of trying to END it with me

OR

Is it just now that he is feeling pressured from to make a choice?